Recumbent-ness

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

While the plan to build the recumbent bike is still on-track, the seat
design will now probably draw heavily from the Kettweisel, and after
initial tests to ensure that it works, I suspect a DualDrive will be in
order (Possibly even with twistgrip having seen that it's possible to
use them with USS).

One of the 'bents we tried in the NL had Dualdrive with USS and twistgrips
and I didn't like it (though I don't like twistgrips in any position). The
only advantage was that both gear shifts were on the same side, a thumb
shifter for the hub gear and the twister for the derailleur. It could have
been the way the twister was set up, but I kept wanting to turn my hand
around to use it, and then back to be comfortable for steering.

My Fiero will have Dual Drive with bar end shifters, with a Shimano Alivio
derailleur instead of the SRAM Dual Drive one. (that's their standard
setup for USS)

Roos

Roos Eisma said:

One of the 'bents we tried in the NL had Dualdrive with USS and twistgrips
and I didn't like it (though I don't like twistgrips in any position). The
only advantage was that both gear shifts were on the same side, a thumb
shifter for the hub gear and the twister for the derailleur. It could have
been the way the twister was set up, but I kept wanting to turn my hand
around to use it, and then back to be comfortable for steering.

Problem is most USS bars are turned up and used like a standard bike's
bar-end, with your thumb and index finger at the top, rather than on the
inside as they are with a flat bar. Twistgrips and thumb shifters are
generally set up to work on the inside of a bar, so it's all [censored] about
face on the 'bent
The Rohloff twistgrip is mounted upside down when fitted to a USS
Streetmachine, with the twist at the top of the bar end to account for
this. This works, but looks a bit odd and leads to the disadvantage of
cables coming out the end of your bars rather than being routed back
down them, which isn't a Kiss of Death level problem but isn't ideal.
One smaller Dutch or German 'bentmonger (I can't remember which, I'm
afraid) has wangled a twistgrip with a much longer twistable area so it
works better with the bottom of you hand, but you'd still suffer with
the thumbshift being in entirely the wrong place.

OTOH, bar ends work better on the bar-end like typical USS bars than
they do on the end of the drops they were originally designed for. If
you're exploring alternatives, I think there's a Good Reason why I've
never seen rapidfires on a USS 'bent...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Roos Eisma [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

One of the 'bents we tried in the NL had Dualdrive with USS and twistgrips
and I didn't like it (though I don't like twistgrips in any position). The
only advantage was that both gear shifts were on the same side, a thumb
shifter for the hub gear and the twister for the derailleur. It could have
been the way the twister was set up, but I kept wanting to turn my hand
around to use it, and then back to be comfortable for steering.

The DualDrive shifter (Both shifters one side) is not an option I'm
considering. After riding a gripshift equipped Kettweisel though, I have
discovered that an hour of riding is enough to learn how to shift using
the bottom of the hand. That said, I think I'd prefer bar-end shifters.
It's just that it'd be nice to index the hub gear.

The plan at the minute is to build it up with a 7 or 8 speed hub and
derailleur to check that it works, and if it's usable (I don't see why
not!), I'll consider the DualDrive upgrade. The downside to it at the
minute is that the wheel alone will cost more than the rest of the bike
put together.

Quoted message said:

My Fiero will have Dual Drive with bar end shifters, with a Shimano Alivio
derailleur instead of the SRAM Dual Drive one. (that's their standard
setup for USS)

I was also looking at an alternative cassette. I need to sit down with
the specs for the hub gear and work out a sensible set of ratios though.

When does the Fiero arrive? And will you (both) be paying a visit to the
York Rally. I'm hoping to have the 'bent built by then (Just about got
all the parts now) so if it's rolling, I may be riding down.

Jon

Jon

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

The DualDrive shifter (Both shifters one side) is not an option I'm
considering. After riding a gripshift equipped Kettweisel though, I have
discovered that an hour of riding is enough to learn how to shift using
the bottom of the hand.

The one we used made us shift with the fingers. I think Pete's
impression was that it was the standard OSS setup which had been
transfered to USS, which then feels awkward because your hands are the
other way around.

Quoted message said:

When does the Fiero arrive?

<Jumping up and down> Soon! Soon! Soon!
I did get an email today saying that it was about ready and if I paid the
remainder it could be sent off "this week".
Payment done, I'm hoping it will be here before the weekend, but after is
probably more realistic.

Quoted message said:

And will you (both) be paying a visit to the
York Rally. I'm hoping to have the 'bent built by then (Just about got
all the parts now) so if it's rolling, I may be riding down.

Nope, that weekend we have a trip to Strawberry Cottage in Glen Affric
planned. As well as a couple of other events we're missing. One of those
very popular weekends 🙁

Roos

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

While the plan to build the recumbent bike is still on-track, the seat
design will now probably draw heavily from the Kettweisel, and after
initial tests to ensure that it works, I suspect a DualDrive will be in
order (Possibly even with twistgrip having seen that it's possible to
use them with USS).

My Fiero will have Dual Drive with bar end shifters, with a Shimano Alivio
derailleur instead of the SRAM Dual Drive one. (that's their standard
setup for USS)

Roos

Hmmm. I'm begining to wish I'd had business meetings in Glasgow instead
of London! I decided that bar end shifters were the thing to have on
USS, but that nice chap at bikefix advised me that I couldn't have them
as I was having the DualDrive. I can't remember if he contacted HPvelo
or not, but I'm not a happy bunny at the moment. And given the amount of
money I will be parting with, I don't think I'm being unreasonable in
believing that I should feel like I'm getting good customer service.
--
..paul

If at first you don't succeed...
Skydiving is probably not the sport for you.

paul said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

While the plan to build the recumbent bike is still on-track, the seat
design will now probably draw heavily from the Kettweisel, and after
initial tests to ensure that it works, I suspect a DualDrive will be in
order (Possibly even with twistgrip having seen that it's possible to
use them with USS).

My Fiero will have Dual Drive with bar end shifters, with a Shimano Alivio
derailleur instead of the SRAM Dual Drive one. (that's their standard
setup for USS)

Roos

Hmmm. I'm begining to wish I'd had business meetings in Glasgow instead
of London! I decided that bar end shifters were the thing to have on
USS, but that nice chap at bikefix advised me that I couldn't have them
as I was having the DualDrive.

This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but SRAM when I had the
same question. I was told that only the SRAM dualdrive shifters (combined
hub gear + rear-mech) or the older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear only), would
work.

The hub-gear has 3 settings - there's no problem with the highest and
lowest hub gears, but the one in the middle needs to be indexed. If you
cycle while it's a bit out, I'm told it won't live long.

There would be no problem fitting a Shimano cassette & using a Shimano
rear-mech + bar-end shifter.

If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-gears, I'm all ears.

Kit

Quoted message said:

I can't remember if he contacted HPvelo
or not, but I'm not a happy bunny at the moment. And given the amount of
money I will be parting with, I don't think I'm being unreasonable in
believing that I should feel like I'm getting good customer service.

kit said:

This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but SRAM when I had the
same question. I was told that only the SRAM dualdrive shifters (combined
hub gear + rear-mech) or the older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear only), would
work.

Quoted message said:

The hub-gear has 3 settings - there's no problem with the highest and
lowest hub gears, but the one in the middle needs to be indexed. If you
cycle while it's a bit out, I'm told it won't live long.

Quoted message said:

There would be no problem fitting a Shimano cassette & using a Shimano
rear-mech + bar-end shifter.

Quoted message said:

If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-gears, I'm all ears.

Hmmm - something to check with Nazca! I'll keep you posted.
(and no Glasgow or HP-Velo involved in my bike, I'm buying directly from
Nazca, the manufacturer, in the Netherlands)

Roos

Roos Eisma said:

kit <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but SRAM when I had the
same question. I was told that only the SRAM dualdrive shifters (combined
hub gear + rear-mech) or the older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear only), would
work.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The hub-gear has 3 settings - there's no problem with the highest and
lowest hub gears, but the one in the middle needs to be indexed. If you
cycle while it's a bit out, I'm told it won't live long.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There would be no problem fitting a Shimano cassette & using a Shimano
rear-mech + bar-end shifter.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-gears, I'm all ears.

Quoted message said:

Hmmm - something to check with Nazca! I'll keep you posted.
(and no Glasgow or HP-Velo involved in my bike, I'm buying directly from
Nazca, the manufacturer, in the Netherlands)

Come to think of it, bar-end shifters can be indexed, so why not?
The Dual Drive shifter has 2 parts, and the thingy for the hubgear isn't
that different from a bar end shifter.

Roos

Roos Eisma scribed with passion and wit:

Quoted message said:

Roos Eisma said:

kit <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but SRAM when I had the
same question. I was told that only the SRAM dualdrive shifters (combined
hub gear + rear-mech) or the older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear only), would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-gears, I'm all ears.

Come to think of it, bar-end shifters can be indexed, so why not?
The Dual Drive shifter has 2 parts, and the thingy for the hubgear isn't
that different from a bar end shifter.

Roos

SRAM uses a 1:1 shift ratio between shifter and gear mech, all bar end
shifters are designed for use with a 1:2 shift ratio system, so you would
have to use the SRAM shifter for the hub gear and a Shimano rear mech for
changing cogs on the cassette.

--
Ian

http://www.catrike.co.uk

paul said:

Hmmm. I'm begining to wish I'd had business meetings in Glasgow instead
of London!

Wouldn't necessarily have helped in this case, Roos tested Fieros in
Amsterdam and Brielle and is ordering direct from Nazca in the NL.
Though she did try out the Kinetics demo bikes during the Great Search
For The Perfect Bike the end result there was "thanks, but no thanks" as
the HPVels didn't quite suit.

Maybe get in touch with Nazca and see exactly what they're doing:
[email hidden]
It's possible it's a DualDrive-a-like made by just putting a casette on
a hub. Moulton have been doing that for years, so it's hardly a new
idea, but ask Nazca to be sure.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Ian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Roos Eisma scribed with passion and wit:

Quoted message said:

Roos Eisma said:

kit <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

> This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but SRAM when I had the
> same question. I was told that only the SRAM dualdrive shifters (combined
> hub gear + rear-mech) or the older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear only), would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-gears, I'm all ears.

Come to think of it, bar-end shifters can be indexed, so why not?
The Dual Drive shifter has 2 parts, and the thingy for the hubgear isn't
that different from a bar end shifter.

SRAM uses a 1:1 shift ratio between shifter and gear mech, all bar end
shifters are designed for use with a 1:2 shift ratio system, so you would
have to use the SRAM shifter for the hub gear and a Shimano rear mech for
changing cogs on the cassette.

SRAM make or have made both types of mech. Mechs labelled ESP are 1:1, the rest
are 1:2. So you need to check the mech.
--
Mark South
Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net
<<Tiens! Ce poulet a une grenade!>>

Mark South scribed with passion and wit:

Quoted message said:

"Ian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Roos Eisma scribed with passion and wit:

Quoted message said:

Roos Eisma <[email hidden]> writes:

> kit <[email hidden]> writes:

>> This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but SRAM when I had the
>> same question. I was told that only the SRAM dualdrive shifters (combined
>> hub gear + rear-mech) or the older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear only), would

Quoted message said:

>> If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-gears, I'm all ears.

Come to think of it, bar-end shifters can be indexed, so why not?
The Dual Drive shifter has 2 parts, and the thingy for the hubgear isn't
that different from a bar end shifter.

SRAM uses a 1:1 shift ratio between shifter and gear mech, all bar end
shifters are designed for use with a 1:2 shift ratio system, so you would
have to use the SRAM shifter for the hub gear and a Shimano rear mech for
changing cogs on the cassette.

SRAM make or have made both types of mech. Mechs labelled ESP are 1:1, the
rest
are 1:2. So you need to check the mech.

All the current mechs are 1:1, they do some Shimano compatible shifters
though.

--
Ian

http://www.catrike.co.uk

kit said:

If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-gears, I'm all ears.

Reply from Henk from Nazca (translation errors are mine):

"In principle it is true that the hub gear can't be changed with a bar-end
shifter. However, 3 years ago we came up with a workaround (I think we're
the first) which makes it work without a problem. It is right that the
second gear should be indexed. The modification of the shifter makes sure
of that, and we have used this now for almost 3 years without any
problems. Just wait and see 🙂 "

And he mentioned it will be a Shimano Deore rather than Alivio derailleur.
He didn't say anything about when he is sending it off though 🙁

Roos

kit [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

paul said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

Jon Senior <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> writes:

>While the plan to build the recumbent bike is still on-track, the seat
>design will now probably draw heavily from the Kettweisel, and after
>initial tests to ensure that it works, I suspect a DualDrive will be in
>order (Possibly even with twistgrip having seen that it's possible to
>use them with USS).

My Fiero will have Dual Drive with bar end shifters, with a Shimano Alivio
derailleur instead of the SRAM Dual Drive one. (that's their standard
setup for USS)

Roos

Hmmm. I'm begining to wish I'd had business meetings in Glasgow instead
of London! I decided that bar end shifters were the thing to have on
USS, but that nice chap at bikefix advised me that I couldn't have them
as I was having the DualDrive.

This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but SRAM when I had the
same question. I was told that only the SRAM dualdrive shifters (combined
hub gear + rear-mech) or the older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear only), would
work.

The hub-gear has 3 settings - there's no problem with the highest and
lowest hub gears, but the one in the middle needs to be indexed. If you
cycle while it's a bit out, I'm told it won't live long.

There would be no problem fitting a Shimano cassette & using a Shimano
rear-mech + bar-end shifter.

If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-gears, I'm all ears.

A couple of suggestions (I'll be looking into these in more detail at
some point soon!).

1) Get a second indexed (RH) shifter and fill in the unnecessary
"bumps" to turn it into a 3. (Assuming that you can calibrate which ones
are unnecessary!)
2) Add "bumps" to a friction LH lever.

The SRAM clickbox has a small window which shows correct alignment for
each gear. This should allow you to calibrate the cable pull.

A suggested solution to 2) from a which Google was to take apart the LH
lever, and apparently there is a plate which sets a click at the end. By
rotating this, you can move the click to the centre which allows you to
index the most difficult one.

Finally. Just use the LH lever on friction and maybe even mark the
centre point on the lever itself.

Jon

Jon Senior said:

kit [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

paul said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...
> Jon Senior <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> writes:
>
> >While the plan to build the recumbent bike is still on-track, the seat
> >design will now probably draw heavily from the Kettweisel, and after
> >initial tests to ensure that it works, I suspect a DualDrive will be in
> >order (Possibly even with twistgrip having seen that it's possible to
> >use them with USS).
>
> My Fiero will have Dual Drive with bar end shifters, with a Shimano Alivio
> derailleur instead of the SRAM Dual Drive one. (that's their standard
> setup for USS)
>
> Roos
>
Hmmm. I'm begining to wish I'd had business meetings in Glasgow instead
of London! I decided that bar end shifters were the thing to have on
USS, but that nice chap at bikefix advised me that I couldn't have them
as I was having the DualDrive.

This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but SRAM when I had the
same question. I was told that only the SRAM dualdrive shifters (combined
hub gear + rear-mech) or the older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear only), would
work.

The hub-gear has 3 settings - there's no problem with the highest and
lowest hub gears, but the one in the middle needs to be indexed. If you
cycle while it's a bit out, I'm told it won't live long.

There would be no problem fitting a Shimano cassette & using a Shimano
rear-mech + bar-end shifter.

If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-gears, I'm all ears.

A couple of suggestions (I'll be looking into these in more detail at
some point soon!).

1) Get a second indexed (RH) shifter and fill in the unnecessary
"bumps" to turn it into a 3. (Assuming that you can calibrate which ones
are unnecessary!)
2) Add "bumps" to a friction LH lever.

The SRAM clickbox has a small window which shows correct alignment for
each gear. This should allow you to calibrate the cable pull.

A suggested solution to 2) from a which Google was to take apart the LH
lever, and apparently there is a plate which sets a click at the end. By
rotating this, you can move the click to the centre which allows you to
index the most difficult one.

Finally. Just use the LH lever on friction and maybe even mark the
centre point on the lever itself.

Thanks,

Solution 2 sounds nice - I shall look into it.

Kit