recumbent frusrations II

johlde said:

First, I wanted to thank everyone for their comments on the original post - recumbent
frustrations. I was surprised and found everyone's encouraging comments refreshing. I'll probably
hang in there a little longer with my recumbent.

I have a couple of follow-ups from some common themes I found reading all the replies to my post.

First, I live in MN, so in the winter I take spinning classes which keeps me in good condition for
the upright bike. What can I do for off-season training for recumbents since I can't ride my bent
in MN for 6+ months out of the year?...

Recumbent riding in Minnesota during the winter. 😉 < calhouncycle.com01icehome.htmlOpen ↗ >

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

With an upright the forces on your knees are limited mostly by your weight. On a recumbent those
forces are only limited by your strength. That makes it much easier to overstress your knee if you
are mashing. I think a common recommend cadence is 90 rpm with 80-100 being a good range. As I don't
ride enough I sometimes have difficultly achieveing these cadences but when I am in shape and do I
am much faster. When you mash on an upright quite often you are out of the saddle therefore you are
quickly rising up on the pedals to ride them down. On a recumbent your position is fixed so a slow
cadence means that your leg movement is slow. It appears that mucles are more efficient with faster
movements. Think doing slow reps with weight vs. quick jerks. The Speedplays may help but I expect
that the problem is mashing. Some bents have a double pully system that allows large adjustment in
sizes without chainging the chain size by wrapping the chain around these moving pulleys. This
allows one bent to be used with different sized people with a minimal change. Ofcourse these extra
pulleys increases loses in the drive train. Shorter cranks will make is easier to spin (discussed
above) and lessen the angle of you knee in the top most position which may help your sore knees. I
still suspect the main problem is you are putting too much pressure on you knees by pressing against
the seat back. If you are 6' plus the standard cranks are probably just fine. If you are short 5'6"
and under I would definately look are shorter cranks. Between that it might be something worth
exploring but its probably not a real problem. Good luck in your cycling. I hope you do see the
advantages most of us see in recumbents but it may take time. It is similar to the time it takes a
marathon runner to adjust to cycling. The basic physical requirments are the same but the motions
and mucles used maybe slighly different. Craig

[email hidden] (johlde) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

First, I wanted to thank everyone for their comments on the original post - recumbent
frustrations. I was surprised and found everyone's encouraging comments refreshing. I'll probably
hang in there a little longer with my recumbent.

I have a couple of follow-ups from some common themes I found reading all the replies to my post.

First, I live in MN, so in the winter I take spinning classes which keeps me in good condition for
the upright bike. What can I do for off-season training for recumbents since I can't ride my bent
in MN for 6+ months out of the year?

I was a masher on my road bike and am the same on the recumbent. I'll try spinning more and see if
that helps. What do you recommend for a cadence on a recumbent? Also, why does a higher cadence
make you faster on a bent? I was always pretty fast on my DF as a masher.

I have SPDs on my bent. I have Speedplays on my DF. Maybe I'll put them on the bent. This mainly
helps for knee problems, right? I can't see gaining any speed improvements from the pedals?

Cletus refered to a Quick Size kit in his post while discussing the drive side idler. I'm a bit
lost on this suggestion. Could you point me to more info about this and how to get such a kit?

Cletus also mentioned that 1/4" in seat adjustment can make a big difference. I probably changed
my seat position 4 times during the ride, but I don't know if I have the ideal position. How do
you go about figuring out the ideal seat position?

Getting shorter cranks (172.5 to 165) was also suggested. How might this help? Does it just help
increase your cadence?

Thanks.

Jason

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

...I have a couple of follow-ups from some common themes I found reading all the replies to
my post.

First, I live in MN, so in the winter I take spinning classes which keeps me in good condition for
the upright bike. What can I do for off-season training for recumbents since I can't ride my bent
in MN for 6+ months out of the year?

I live where I can fortunately ride year round. I think your 6 months out of the year off the bike
exists mostly in your mind. I ride on the coldest mornings down to about 25 deg. You should be able
to find some time during the winter when the temperature is at least 25 deg. I have a friend that
lives in the mountains of Va. He commutes year round in temperatures down to about 10 degrees. He
does not commute when ther is snow and ice on the roads. As Tom has pointed out, even snow and ice
can be seen in MN as a challenge not a deterent.

Quoted message said:

I was a masher on my road bike and am the same on the recumbent. I'll try spinning more and see if
that helps. What do you recommend for a cadence on a recumbent? Also, why does a higher cadence
make you faster on a bent? I was always pretty fast on my DF as a masher.

Because you can climb faster. Also it is much easier on the knees. I mentioned earlier that I too
had 'masher' tendencies. At some point I reached a level of training and proficiency where I was
cruising comfortably at 19 mph. I could not seem to make the extra little shift in strength and
endurance to bump the speedo up to 20+ and keep it there. Someone on this NG recommended
spinning. I got a cadence computer (Astrale) and checked my 'normal' cadence. It was about 70.
The best that I could do was about 110 for short distances. ON my way to work in rush hour
traffic at that 19+ mph, I started trying to learn to spin. I dropped from the large chainring to
the middle (52T-42T) and found that I could maintain a 95-100 rpm cadence for longer. And my
speed went up too. My ride to work before was average 15-16 mph, By dropping down a gear and
upping the cadence to 95+, I discovered that I could cruise at 20-22 mph and my best average for
the ride to work distance was 17.5 mph.

Quoted message said:

I have SPDs on my bent. I have Speedplays on my DF. Maybe I'll put them on the bent. This mainly
helps for knee problems, right? I can't see gaining any speed improvements from the pedals?

SPD cleats come in two 'flavors' (SH-51 -black and SH-55 - Silver) The black cleats do not have as
much float and knee pain is often the result unless the cleat angle is perfect. Also you said that
you switched to the SPDs when going to the bent. There is a break-in period on the knees when
switching from one brand/style to the other. I discovered this when I went from SPDs to Eggbeaters.
If you are used to Speedplays, then you should keep Speed plays on all bikes. I now have Eggbeaters
on all my bikes.

Quoted message said:

Cletus refered to a Quick Size kit in his post while discussing the drive side idler. I'm a bit
lost on this suggestion. Could you point me to more info about this and how to get such a kit?

lightningbikes.comaccessor.htmOpen ↗

I do not recommend this since it adds additional turns into the chain path and increased friction on
the chain.

Quoted message said:

Cletus also mentioned that 1/4" in seat adjustment can make a big difference. I probably changed
my seat position 4 times during the ride, but I don't know if I have the ideal position. How do
you go about figuring out the ideal seat position?

Trial and error. You will notice it first in the knees. I would start with the seat to pedal
distance in its closest (reasonably) comfortable position. Then in gradual (1/4"😉 increments,
lengthen the boom until the back of the knee feels over extended and pain appears. The I would
shorten that length until the over extended knees are no longer. That distance is going to be a
point where the knees retain a slight bend when the pedal is furtherest away from the body.

Quoted message said:

Getting shorter cranks (172.5 to 165) was also suggested. How might this help? Does it just help
increase your cadence?

Shorter people can not spin long cranks as fast as short cranks. I am 5'7" and I use 170 cranks.
They are probably a little long for me.
--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

(johlde) said:

First, I live in MN, so in the winter I take spinning classes which keeps me in good condition for
the upright bike. What can I do for off-season training for recumbents since I can't ride my bent
in MN for 6+ months out of the year?

Spinning classes are perfect for recumbents, too. You're trying to learn to spin, remember? I
frequently stay on the saddle, even when the instructor is having us jump or do hills. Sometimes I
tell the instructor ahead of time so they don't think I'm being rude and ignoring them.

I also agree there isn't a well populated location in the continental US that requires a 6 month
layoff each year. It gets plenty cold here in Boise, but I ride year round as long as there isn't
ice or snow on the ground.

Spinning bikes have short cranks. Ride your bike to your next spinning class and try to notice the
difference in knee angle and ability to spin.

-- Robert

Jason,

I live near Atlanta so I'll defer to the Northerners on winter riding. I would imagine that a
trainer would work fine.

Mashing on a recumbent is a bad idea because of the strain it puts on the knees. It's like doing a
leg press. Spinning between 85-95 RPM is best. At the least, spin above 80 RPM.

I had SPD's, but switched to Time ATAC Alium MTB pedals. I also use knee saver pedal extenders,
which change the position of my knees. If you like Speedplays, use them.

Cletus is right about small adjustments making a big difference. This is especially true of cleat
adjustments. Your leg should still be slightly bent at the end of the pedal stroke. Most of your
power is at the end of the stroke, and moving up too close to the pedal puts a strain on your knees.

The Quick Size Kit is usefull if you intend to share the bike, but you are probably close to your
correct adjustment now. It is a chain idler borrowed from a derailleur. Invest in a good chain tool
instead. Look at Lightning's site: lightningbikes.comaccessor.htmOpen ↗

Leave the cranks for last. Shorter cranks force you to gear down and spin--no leverage. Your asking
for advice tells me you are disciplined enough to do that yourself.

I hope this helps.

Bob

[email hidden] (johlde) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

First, I wanted to thank everyone for their comments on the original post - recumbent
frustrations. I was surprised and found everyone's encouraging comments refreshing. I'll probably
hang in there a little longer with my recumbent.

I have a couple of follow-ups from some common themes I found reading all the replies to my post.

First, I live in MN, so in the winter I take spinning classes which keeps me in good condition for
the upright bike. What can I do for off-season training for recumbents since I can't ride my bent
in MN for 6+ months out of the year?

I was a masher on my road bike and am the same on the recumbent. I'll try spinning more and see if
that helps. What do you recommend for a cadence on a recumbent? Also, why does a higher cadence
make you faster on a bent? I was always pretty fast on my DF as a masher.

I have SPDs on my bent. I have Speedplays on my DF. Maybe I'll put them on the bent. This mainly
helps for knee problems, right? I can't see gaining any speed improvements from the pedals?

Cletus refered to a Quick Size kit in his post while discussing the drive side idler. I'm a bit
lost on this suggestion. Could you point me to more info about this and how to get such a kit?

Cletus also mentioned that 1/4" in seat adjustment can make a big difference. I probably changed
my seat position 4 times during the ride, but I don't know if I have the ideal position. How do
you go about figuring out the ideal seat position?

Getting shorter cranks (172.5 to 165) was also suggested. How might this help? Does it just help
increase your cadence?

Thanks.

Jason

Hi Jason, I am one person who mentioned crank length. I test rode a Phantom and then tested and
purchased a Giro (mine is not built up yet). I have had a Haluzak Leprechaun for four years. On all
three bikes I noticed my knees have to much bend in them at the closest position. I have no power at
that point and it strains the knees. That is what I wanted you to look for. It could be a major
contributor to two of your complaints---sore knees and lack of power/speed.

That is especially a problem for mashers. The forces on the knee can be extreme in the close in
position. Consider doing that 60-70 times a minute for several hours. I always thought I was a
masher. Now I realize the cranks were just tooooo darn long.

If you are thinking DF cranks the choices in sizes is not much and the effective difference is
probably minimal. I am talking the difference between 170 and 167.5. I am short so I have purchased
150mm cranks for my new ride. Ask me in a couple of weeks what I think. Others have already posted
positive results for going to shorter cranks. So, don't be afraid to think of shorter cranks than
you would for a DF.

How is your knee position at the close in/compressed position?

johlde <[email hidden]> wrote:
: First, I wanted to thank everyone for their comments on the original post - recumbent
: frustrations. I was surprised and found everyone's encouraging comments refreshing. I'll probably
: hang in there a little longer with my recumbent.

You can also think of it that way that bents are not faster and better but they are different and
more fun, so it's worth keeping both :-)

: First, I live in MN, so in the winter I take spinning classes which keeps me in good condition for
: the upright bike. What can I do for off-season training for recumbents since I can't ride my bent
: in MN for 6+ months out of the year?

If you want to be a very strong rider, you can buy a trainer (maybe $100-200) and a trike (much more
=). On a trike the dangers of slipping on ice and sleet are minimal. A full fairing can keep you
quite comfortable even when the wind is extremely chilly or it's raining sleet in horizontal.

Other than that, you can do cross training: swimming, skiing, resistance training (eg. leg press and
upper body). Buy a training book and be sure not to miss different online sources :-)

--
Risto Varanka | helsinki.fihpv.htmlOpen ↗ varis at no spam please iki fi

Quoted message said:

I live where I can fortunately ride year round. I think your 6 months out of the year off the bike
exists mostly in your mind. I ride on the coldest mornings down to about 25 deg.

So Cletus, what's your favorite Bike Path. I spend a lot of time riding along the Braes Bayou. I
Ride down Chimney Rock til i get to the Bayou, take a right, and follow the path to the Blockbuster
Video Store. Then I turn around and push it back to at least 610. Then back home. That puts that
ride about about 20ish. If I'm doing a day ride, I just keep going on past the hospitals and past
Hermann park and just wend my way where I can.

As a rule, I avoid Memorial Park. Too crowded, too small.

I'm still riding a couple of Uprights, either my Trek 2120 or my Giant Iguana. I'm searching for the
Perfect bent bike and fine myself leaning towards teh RANS V-2. Although the Cycle Genius seems to
have a lot to offer. I'm looking forward to this new riding adventure on the bent. May make the
"pedal to the pyramids" more tolerable.

See you on the trails

Scott

Scoot
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Trying to save someone from their own stupidity is like trying to teach a pig how to dance: it
wastes your time, and annoys the pig."

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I live where I can fortunately ride year round. I think your 6 months out of the year off the
bike exists mostly in your mind. I ride on the coldest mornings down to about 25 deg.

So Cletus, what's your favorite Bike Path. I spend a lot of time riding along the Braes Bayou. I
Ride down Chimney Rock til i get to the Bayou, take a right, and follow the path to the
Blockbuster Video Store. Then I turn around and push it back to at least 610. Then back home. That
puts that ride about about 20ish. If I'm doing a day ride, I just keep going on past the hospitals
and past Hermann park and just wend my way where I can.

As a rule, I avoid Memorial Park. Too crowded, too small.

Quoted message said:

See you on the trails

You probably already have.

I frequent the Braes Bayou H&B. It is my main commute to work in the Med Center. Join our little
mixed group on Saturdays a Planetary Cycles We leave at 7:30 and do a loop that includes the 610
Loop Service road to Memorial Park, and on to Downtown. East by Minute Maid Park to the East End and
back along MacGregor to brunch at La Madeline in Rice Village.

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

From Oct. '93 when I moved here from Sparks, Nevada til April, '98, I'd ridden year-round here in
Star Valley, Wyoming at 5700 to 6700' ASL. Fortunately the state plows US Hwy 89 and the various
counties plow the county roads from 0500 til 2100 and sand them [no salt, thank goodness] so no
problem once one gets from driveway [3/4-mile long] to county road. Get good exercise using tracked
32-inch snowblower to clear drive. Later years we've had more snowstorms than rain.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Johlde
First, I wanted to thank everyone for their comments on the original post - recumbent frustrations.
I was surprised and found everyone's encouraging comments refreshing. I'll probably hang in there a
little longer with my recumbent.

I have a couple of follow-ups from some common themes I found reading all the replies to my post.

First, I live in MN, so in the winter I take spinning classes which keeps me in good condition for
the upright bike. What can I do for off-season training for recumbents since I can't ride my bent in
MN for 6+ months out of the year?

I was a masher on my road bike and am the same on the recumbent. I'll try spinning more and see if
that helps. What do you recommend for a cadence on a recumbent? Also, why does a higher cadence make
you faster on a bent? I was always pretty fast on my DF as a masher.

I have SPDs on my bent. I have Speedplays on my DF. Maybe I'll put them on the bent. This mainly
helps for knee problems, right? I can't see gaining any speed improvements from the pedals?

Cletus refered to a Quick Size kit in his post while discussing the drive side idler. I'm a bit lost
on this suggestion. Could you point me to more info about this and how to get such a kit?

Cletus also mentioned that 1/4" in seat adjustment can make a big difference. I probably changed my
seat position 4 times during the ride, but I don't know if I have the ideal position. How do you go
about figuring out the ideal seat position?

Getting shorter cranks (172.5 to 165) was also suggested. How might this help? Does it just help
increase your cadence?

Thanks.

Jason

Quoted post said:

"What do you recommend for a cadence on a recumbent?"

I see no reason why cadence should vary significantly from what you tend to use on your road bike. I have read from several presumably authoritative sources that recumbent riders should adjust their cleats back behind the ball of their foot, the rationale being the recumbent riding position changes the muscle groups involved in pedaling and changing the cleat position avoids knee stress.

Quoted post said:

What can I do for off-season training for recumbents since I can't ride my bent in MN for 6+ months out of the year?

Any good rear wheel trainer and a TV ought to do the trick.

There are two problems with Minnesota winter compared to other, especially mountain, states. First, Minnesota pours more salt on their roads than you can believe. This is murder on every single bicycle component, so an old bike is advised. Second, compared to other cold places I've lived, we get a lot more freeze-thaw, so ice is a big problem in any shady spot.

Still, living in Minnesota, I've ridden every month except January when we often go 30 or 40 days without getting about freezing.

Hello - I live in Minnesota too and I have already found that I just plain do not like cold weather riding. I don't know why, but I feel like I am working WAY harder and experiencing some suffering, which is new to me on my 'bent. Usually it's a grin that won't quit!

The salt in MN is a problem. We had a little snow recently and the roads were covered with more salt than snow.

But I readily admit my wimpishness and I do not believe there is a really good excuse to say six months of the year are impossible for riding. Maybe two months could be nearly impossible. But I won't be out there because I am a wimp. I refuse to blame the weather. It's 46 out right now and sunny. Hmmmm. I think I just talked myself into a ride!

BTW - I have Eggbeaters and normal length cranks which seem to work out fine. I am 5'8" and female with long legs. I have not experienced any problems with seat position/cranks. Have fun!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by minnesotamike
There are two problems with Minnesota winter compared to other, especially mountain, states. First, Minnesota pours more salt on their roads than you can believe. This is murder on every single bicycle component, so an old bike is advised. Second, compared to other cold places I've lived, we get a lot more freeze-thaw, so ice is a big problem in any shady spot.

Still, living in Minnesota, I've ridden every month except January when we often go 30 or 40 days without getting about freezing.

Sounds like a low priced trike might be the best winter solution for the salt and ice.