Recumbent = Clipless??

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Say, what's with this notion that riding a 'bent necessarily means
going clipless?

Not that I ever use any special shoes or pedals myself...are they like
the controversy over helmets?

(Seriously!)

Dunno where you heard that - recumbents were around long before clipless
pedals were widespread. I was at the Seattle Bike Expo this weekend, and
they had lots of 'bents w/o clipless pedals.

maybe there is a controversy, but I hadn't heard about it. Nobody tells me
anything.

Hank Wirtz said:

Dunno where you heard that - recumbents were around long before clipless
pedals were widespread. I was at the Seattle Bike Expo this weekend, and
they had lots of 'bents w/o clipless pedals.

That's this guy's opinion (just before the middle of the page), which
made me wonder if many others share it:

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/13q11/cycling/smgt.html

Quoted message said:

maybe there is a controversy, but I hadn't heard about it. Nobody tells me
anything.

Well, I'm certainly the last to know. Just found out about this
clipless thing myself!

Per NYC XYZ:

Quoted message said:

Say, what's with this notion that riding a 'bent necessarily means
going clipless?

I've never ridden a 'bent, but my impression is that as the chain wheel gets
higher and higher relative to the rider's hips, at some point something is
needed to help keep the rider's feet on the pedals.

Seems like "clipless" in this case just mean "something to keep the rider's
feet on the pedals" since toe clips and straps aren't getting much publicity
lately.
--
PeteCresswell

(PeteCresswell) said:

Per NYC XYZ:

Quoted message said:

Say, what's with this notion that riding a 'bent necessarily means
going clipless?

I've never ridden a 'bent, but my impression is that as the chain wheel gets
higher and higher relative to the rider's hips, at some point something is
needed to help keep the rider's feet on the pedals.

Seems like "clipless" in this case just mean "something to keep the rider's
feet on the pedals" since toe clips and straps aren't getting much publicity
lately.

Your deductions are correct.

--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!

Hank Wirtz said:

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Say, what's with this notion that riding a 'bent necessarily means
going clipless?

Not that I ever use any special shoes or pedals myself...are they like
the controversy over helmets?

(Seriously!)

Dunno where you heard that - recumbents were around long before clipless
pedals were widespread. I was at the Seattle Bike Expo this weekend, and
they had lots of 'bents w/o clipless pedals....

Most low-end upright bicycles are sold with platform pedals on the
assumption that an experienced rider may not be comfortable with using
foot retention systems (e.g. "clipless", Power Grips, clips and
straps). Higher end uprights are generally sold without pedals with the
assumption that the buyers will be experienced riders with established
preferences for a particular pedal type. The recumbent industry has
generally taken the former option, even on higher end bikes. The fact
that many recumbents come equipped with a set of platform pedals that
cost the manufacturer very little should not be seen as an endorsement
for the general use on recumbents other than those with low bottom
brackets intended for short and/or casual riding.

--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!

(PeteCresswell) said:

Per NYC XYZ:

Quoted message said:

Say, what's with this notion that riding a 'bent necessarily means
going clipless?

I've never ridden a 'bent, but my impression is that as the chain wheel gets
higher and higher relative to the rider's hips, at some point something is
needed to help keep the rider's feet on the pedals.

Seems like "clipless" in this case just mean "something to keep the rider's
feet on the pedals" since toe clips and straps aren't getting much publicity
lately.

Well, as a dedicated retro-grouch, I'd vote for heel clips. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

Per NYC XYZ:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Say, what's with this notion that riding a 'bent necessarily means
going clipless?

PeteCresswell said:

I've never ridden a 'bent, but my impression is that as the chain

wheel gets

Quoted message said:

higher and higher relative to the rider's hips, at some point

something is

Quoted message said:

needed to help keep the rider's feet on the pedals.

That's true, especially since it is not unusual for a recumbent rider's
foot to get sucked under the seat if it hits the ground. This can be
quite painful, depending on the geometry of the specific 'bent.

Quoted message said:

Seems like "clipless" in this case just mean "something to keep the

rider's

Quoted message said:

feet on the pedals" since toe clips and straps aren't getting much

publicity

Quoted message said:

lately.

Traditional toke lips don't work too well for this, due to the direction
of gravity on a 'bent rider's feet. It's also harder to get into them
on a 'bent due to the angle of the dangle.

Back before clipless pedals, it was not unusual for recumbents to have
_heel_ straps dangling down from the pedals. These were a lot more
convenient than toe straps.

Sheldon "SPDs For Me" Brown
+----------------------------------------------------+
| If you like baby-boomer rock music, you’ll love: |
| http://wolfgangsvault.com |
+----------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

Most low-end upright bicycles are sold with platform pedals on the
assumption that an experienced rider

I'm assuming you mean "INexperienced rider" there, right?

Quoted message said:

may not be comfortable with using
foot retention systems (e.g. "clipless", Power Grips, clips and
straps).

Yeah, I don't think I like 'em myself, and I'm fairly hard-core for
twenty-some-odd years now (I say "fairly" 'cause I put in the mileage
and hills and weather conditions, but don't know nothing about Rohloff
hubs, Rotor cranks, clipless pedals, etc. -- Grip Shift was a
revolution for me!).

Quoted message said:

Higher end uprights are generally sold without pedals with the
assumption that the buyers will be experienced riders with established
preferences for a particular pedal type.

I actually traded in the pedals that came with my Trek 1000c for
regular ones!

Quoted message said:

The recumbent industry has
generally taken the former option, even on higher end bikes. The fact
that many recumbents come equipped with a set of platform pedals that
cost the manufacturer very little should not be seen as an endorsement
for the general use on recumbents other than those with low bottom
brackets intended for short and/or casual riding.

So...are my knees gonna get messed up or something if I don't use
clipless pedals? Just what are they, um, good for? Is this the
equivalent of wearing spandex -- no big deal -- or more like the
difference between a 'bent and an upwrong -- like night and day??

Quoted message said:

--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!

NYC XYZ said:

Say, what's with this notion that riding a 'bent necessarily means
going clipless?

"Necessarily", no. Especially the case on a compact or long setup where
the bottom bracket is fairly well under the seat. But the higher the
bottom bracket in relation to the seat the more it becomes a tangible
effort to hold your feet in place, and that gets more pronounced the
longer the trip.

Quoted message said:

Not that I ever use any special shoes or pedals myself...are they like
the controversy over helmets?

Nothing like it. They make your pedalling more efficient and they make
the ride more comfortable over distance with a high BB as you don't have
to use effort holding your feet up. You've just invested A Lot Of $$$s
on comfort, why compromise it by holding your feet up in the air with
muscle power, and wasting energy compressing sneaker soles?

People use clipless pedals and dedicated cycle shoes on 'bents for the
same reason they increasingly do on DFs meant for performance/distance
riding. They work better.

I hugely recommend you look into clipless for your Streetmachine, they
just make it easier and nicer to ride as soon as you're past anything
like a mile or two. They're not hard to use, my gf started on clipless
at the same time she got used to a 'bent, because it meant not bothering
to change the pedals when she borrowed my bike. She borrowed my SPuD
sandals too, which are a size too big for her, and she still managed
okay. You can get pedals with a platform on one side and a mech on the
other so you can still use the bike easily without dedicated cycle
shoes, though for any serious distance cycle shoes improve your comfort
and efficiency irrespective of whether you're using clipless pedals,
straps and clips, or just platforms.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Say, what's with this notion that riding a 'bent necessarily means
going clipless?

Not that I ever use any special shoes or pedals myself...are they like
the controversy over helmets?

(Seriously!)

No, using clipless are not a necessity on a 'bent, but I certainly see them
as desirable. Why? Well, example. I have a 'bent trike (Ice T) and with
positioning of feet on a 'bent, if you take your feet off the pedals
*before* coming to a stop, it is possible for your leg to be dragged
backwards under the frame. Not nice. Using clipless means your feet are not
going to fall off the pedal before you stop, so you are effectively
minimising the risk of leg suck. Toeclips with straps would also provide
security, but clipless are just so much easier to use than a traditional
platform pedal with toeclips & straps. I was also an unwilling convert to
clipless but now I would never willingly go back to using platform pedals
with or without toeclips on either my 'bent or my upright bikes. I thought
clipless were unnecessary/too difficult to use, but once I gave them a go -
no looking back so to speak. I use Look pedals by the way.

Cheers, helen s

Peter Clinch said:

"Necessarily", no. Especially the case on a compact or long setup where
the bottom bracket is fairly well under the seat. But the higher the
bottom bracket in relation to the seat the more it becomes a tangible
effort to hold your feet in place, and that gets more pronounced the
longer the trip.

I've never felt uncomfortable on a DF with just regular ol' pedals, so
whatever their benefits, I'd still not adopt them for upright
riding...but 'bents I dunno, so I wonder. But if it ain't close to
"necessary" to be "practically necessary" then I probably wouldn't miss
'em, still.

Damn, can't wait to take delivery in March!! I know some very nice
hills and bumpy paths I can try out the SMGTe on....

Quoted message said:

Nothing like it. They make your pedalling more efficient and they make
the ride more comfortable over distance with a high BB as you don't have
to use effort holding your feet up. You've just invested A Lot Of $$$s
on comfort, why compromise it by holding your feet up in the air with
muscle power, and wasting energy compressing sneaker soles?

Is it that bad? I don't really remember from my test ride any such
issue, though thinking things through later on, I did wonder whether it
took any effort to keep the feet "up"...but then again, I just figured
that such effort was minimal, only slightly more than having to breathe
or something like that!

Quoted message said:

People use clipless pedals and dedicated cycle shoes on 'bents for the
same reason they increasingly do on DFs meant for performance/distance
riding. They work better.

Like, do I go much faster? Even 10% sounds a bit low, though that'd be
enough to catch my attention. 5%, 3%...I'm not sure if I'd care.

Otherwise, I'd go do fairing, etc. -- even wear spandex! But I don't
imagine these things to add significantly to my overall experience, or
sheer speed, or just physical comfort. Are pedals about as important
as spandex for areodynamics?

Quoted message said:

I hugely recommend you look into clipless for your Streetmachine, they
just make it easier and nicer to ride as soon as you're past anything
like a mile or two. They're not hard to use, my gf started on clipless
at the same time she got used to a 'bent, because it meant not bothering
to change the pedals when she borrowed my bike. She borrowed my SPuD
sandals too, which are a size too big for her, and she still managed
okay. You can get pedals with a platform on one side and a mech on the
other so you can still use the bike easily without dedicated cycle
shoes, though for any serious distance cycle shoes improve your comfort
and efficiency irrespective of whether you're using clipless pedals,
straps and clips, or just platforms.

Um, I've gone up to seventy-some-odd miles in one shot (well, maybe
with like two fifteen minutes breaks for sight-seeing and so forth) and
don't remember feeling uncomfortable in just sneakers and regular
pedals with a lil' bit o' teeth. How do "cycling shoes" improve
things? I think they're the ones with the stiff hard soles, right?
Seems like you'd want to be able to flex your foot every which way,
especially over distance! I don't mean just flex at the ankle, I mean
flex every which way, the foot itself. I just can't imagine who a
"stuck" feeling, when strapped or clipped in, could be comfortable,
though I can guess at how it's supposed to be more physically
efficient. But the loss of power is, what, less than the interest a
bank issues on a regular savings account, I bet?

Quoted message said:

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

NYC XYZ said:

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

...
The recumbent industry has
generally taken the former option, even on higher end bikes. The fact
that many recumbents come equipped with a set of platform pedals that
cost the manufacturer very little should not be seen as an endorsement
for the general use on recumbents other than those with low bottom
brackets intended for short and/or casual riding.

So...are my knees gonna get messed up or something if I don't use
clipless pedals? Just what are they, um, good for? Is this the
equivalent of wearing spandex -- no big deal -- or more like the
difference between a 'bent and an upwrong -- like night and day??

Ride with platform pedals until you are very tired (e.g. long hilly
double metric on a hot, windy day on poor roads with a group that is
slightly stronger than you are) and try to keep your feet on the pedals
- then you will understand why foot retention systems are important on
a recumbent bicycle.

--
Tom Sherman

NYC XYZ said:

I've never felt uncomfortable on a DF with just regular ol' pedals, so
whatever their benefits, I'd still not adopt them for upright
riding...

Thus speaks the man who hasn't tried them... They make your life easier
on a long ride, and I mean on a DF as well, what's not to like here?

Quoted message said:

But if it ain't close to
"necessary" to be "practically necessary" then I probably wouldn't miss
'em, still.

You can ride a Streetmachine without clipless with no great trouble.
People do. But I'm not one of them, because I prefer to be more
efficient and more comfortable, especially when there's little reason
not to. I prefer platforms on the Brompton folder I use as an urban
hack bike because it means I don't have to put on special shoes to use
the bike, but that's not really an issue if I'm off for a long ride, and
if you use a pedal with platform one side and a mech the other it's not
an issue anyway.

Quoted message said:

Is it that bad?

How bad is bad?

Quoted message said:

I don't really remember from my test ride any such
issue, though thinking things through later on, I did wonder whether it
took any effort to keep the feet "up"...but then again, I just figured
that such effort was minimal, only slightly more than having to breathe
or something like that!

Round the block or for a couple of miles it's a non issue. I was riding
a Speedmachine on Saturday on platforms, no trouble because I didn't go
far. Over several hours and dozens of miles it will gradually make
itself more known. It doesn't take a /lot/ of effort, but it's effort
there is no reason to make.

Quoted message said:

Like, do I go much faster? Even 10% sounds a bit low, though that'd be
enough to catch my attention. 5%, 3%...I'm not sure if I'd care.

You are more efficient over the course of a ride, which means you get
less tired. On hills you can pull as well as push which makes them
easier. If you don't care to make your life easier, why get such a nice
bike?

Quoted message said:

Otherwise, I'd go do fairing, etc. -- even wear spandex! But I don't
imagine these things to add significantly to my overall experience, or
sheer speed, or just physical comfort. Are pedals about as important
as spandex for areodynamics?

They are completely fundamental to driving /any/ bike. The further you
drive it, the more important their efficiency is. You've just bought a
long distance touring bike... do the math! ;-)

Quoted message said:

Um, I've gone up to seventy-some-odd miles in one shot (well, maybe
with like two fifteen minutes breaks for sight-seeing and so forth) and
don't remember feeling uncomfortable in just sneakers and regular
pedals with a lil' bit o' teeth. How do "cycling shoes" improve
things? I think they're the ones with the stiff hard soles, right?
Seems like you'd want to be able to flex your foot every which way,
especially over distance! I don't mean just flex at the ankle, I mean
flex every which way, the foot itself.

Touring and most MTB shoes aren't /that/ stiff, just stiff enough to
make a useful difference. The reason most touring cyclists wear
dedicated cycling shoes is like the reason they use panniers rather than
rucksacks for the most part: they work better, and they've been found to
work better after comparison with the alternative.

Quoted message said:

I just can't imagine who a
"stuck" feeling, when strapped or clipped in, could be comfortable

That you can't imagine it is the key here: you have no way of knowing
without trying it, so try it! Lots of people hum and har about
clipless, very few regret moving over after trying them out. A bit like
recumbents, really...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

wafflycat said:

I have a 'bent trike (Ice T) and
with positioning of feet on a 'bent, if you take your feet off the
pedals *before* coming to a stop, it is possible for your leg to be
dragged backwards under the frame. Not nice. Using clipless means your
feet are not going to fall off the pedal before you stop, so you are
effectively minimising the risk of leg suck.

Though this is more of an issue on an ICE T (or other low seat height
machine) than a Streetmachine. Being used to the Streetmachine, I
nearly hurt myself trying a trike on Saturday because I came to a stop
and put my foot down early like I'm used to doing and nearly ran it
over. Not nice, as noted above, but not really an issue with the seat
height of the SMGT unless you have /very/ long legs (I tend to hop off
mine as I'm stopping, rather than wait to stop before taking feet off
the pedals).

Quoted message said:

I was also an
unwilling convert to clipless but now I would never willingly go back to
using platform pedals with or without toeclips on either my 'bent or my
upright bikes. I thought clipless were unnecessary/too difficult to use,
but once I gave them a go - no looking back so to speak.

XYZ NYC, read that paragraph about 20 times to get the idea. People use
them because they /work better/, regardless of their preconceptions.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Like, do I go much faster? Even 10% sounds a bit low, though that'd be
enough to catch my attention. 5%, 3%...I'm not sure if I'd care.

Otherwise, I'd go do fairing, etc. -- even wear spandex! But I don't
imagine these things to add significantly to my overall experience, or
sheer speed, or just physical comfort. Are pedals about as important
as spandex for areodynamics?

I was a reluctant convert to clipless.

Basically I was given a pair of Look shoes free of charge. So my other half
bought me the pedals. Until that point I'd never used clipless, didn't want
to try them. thought they looked dangerous and couldn't possibly make any
real difference etc., etc., etc...

Then I tried them.

The difference is *noticeable* More speed for same effort, or same speed for
less effort. Pedalling is so much more efficient the difference is
noticeable. You are effectively pulling on the upstroke as well as pushing
on the downstroke, so you don't have to push as hard on the downstroke.
Going uphill becomes easier - ntoiceably so. Clipping in and out qucikly
becomes second nature. Oh - and prior to using clipless, I had aching knees
& calves.. not any more. I would not willingly go back to 'normal' pedals.
And I'm a middle-aged 'pootler' getting benefit from using clipless - you
really don't have to be a speed freak to get benefit from them.

Cheers, helen s

On 20 Feb 2006 15:44:43 -0800, "NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Say, what's with this notion that riding a 'bent necessarily means
going clipless?

It depends on the 'bent. It can be tiring to keep your feet on the
pedals when the cranks are positioned in a manner that puts your feet
well ahead of your knees. Clipless shoes make this easier by
eliminating the need to use muscles to just keep the leg in place.

Quoted message said:

Not that I ever use any special shoes or pedals myself...are they like
the controversy over helmets?

This is more of a "depends on the bike and rider" issue. Extreme
'bents can be a nuisance to ride with conventional shoes, while others
are no trouble at all. One of my neighbors has one of the latter; he
rides with regular shoes and has no problem doing so. One of the
other 'bents I see on a semi-regular basis has a rider position that's
so low and extended that the idea of riding it without a cleated shoe
would be decidedly unappetizing to me.

Helmets are a matter of predicted need, not apparent need...unless, of
course, you're in that very rare circumstance where a collision
between your head and another object is about to occur, in which case
the perception of need may shift after it's too late to change the
equipment. Clipless pedals, if they are truly needed at all, will be
made apparent as a necessity in short order.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

NYC XYZ said:

Say, what's with this notion that riding a 'bent necessarily means
going clipless?

Not that I ever use any special shoes or pedals myself...are they like
the controversy over helmets?

(Seriously!)

Well NYC, I have used clipless pedals on my df, for part of a tour, then
found out that I had not given myself time to adjust to them, and almost
had a loaded touring bike on top of me on the ground! Not fun, so I went
back to the platforms that came with the bike. But for rec / fun /
fitness rides clipless are the way to go, from what I can tell, imo. I
still use platforms on my commuter df. But plan to use my Look clipless
pedal system on my bent when I get a few more miles under my belt. Going
fast on a bent if fun, and i think the clipless will help with this.

Ken
-
You never have the wind with you - either it is against you or you're
having a good day. ~Daniel Behrman, The Man Who Loved Bicycles

Homepage: http://kcm-home.tripod.com/

wafflycat said:

I was a reluctant convert to clipless.

Quoted message said:

Then I tried them.

The difference is *noticeable* More speed for same effort, or same speed
for less effort. Pedalling is so much more efficient the difference is
noticeable. You are effectively pulling on the upstroke as well as
pushing on the downstroke, so you don't have to push as hard on the
downstroke. Going uphill becomes easier - ntoiceably so. Clipping in and
out qucikly becomes second nature. Oh - and prior to using clipless, I
had aching knees & calves.. not any more. I would not willingly go back
to 'normal' pedals. And I'm a middle-aged 'pootler' getting benefit from
using clipless - you really don't have to be a speed freak to get
benefit from them.

Your experience isn't typical for rider with more developed leg muscles.
When you "pull up" you're using the leg "flexors" which are much weaker
than leg "extensors". When your extensors get strong enough, they'll use
all of your cardio-vascular capacity by themselves, so there isn't any
gain by adding the flexors, except for short (anaerobic) efforts.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

NYC XYZ said:

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

Most low-end upright bicycles are sold with platform pedals on the
assumption that an experienced rider

I'm assuming you mean "INexperienced rider" there, right?

Quoted message said:

may not be comfortable with using
foot retention systems (e.g. "clipless", Power Grips, clips and
straps).

Yeah, I don't think I like 'em myself, and I'm fairly hard-core for
twenty-some-odd years now (I say "fairly" 'cause I put in the mileage
and hills and weather conditions, but don't know nothing about Rohloff
hubs, Rotor cranks, clipless pedals, etc. -- Grip Shift was a
revolution for me!).

Quoted message said:

Higher end uprights are generally sold without pedals with the
assumption that the buyers will be experienced riders with established
preferences for a particular pedal type.

I actually traded in the pedals that came with my Trek 1000c for
regular ones!

Quoted message said:

The recumbent industry has
generally taken the former option, even on higher end bikes. The fact
that many recumbents come equipped with a set of platform pedals that
cost the manufacturer very little should not be seen as an endorsement
for the general use on recumbents other than those with low bottom
brackets intended for short and/or casual riding.

So...are my knees gonna get messed up or something if I don't use
clipless pedals? Just what are they, um, good for? Is this the
equivalent of wearing spandex -- no big deal -- or more like the
difference between a 'bent and an upwrong -- like night and day??

First let us make clear what we are talking about. Are you
asking why many riders prefer using clip-less pedals? Or
are you asking why you might consider using clip-less
pedals? Since you have not used them, and are disinclined
to try them, and since you choose a derisive tone to ask;
I think you are attempting to initiate a heated discussion
where there is no controversy. This matter has been
discussed at length in r.b.t. as you could discover for
yourself. You might remove r.b.t from the Newsgroups:
header.

--
Michael Press