Record 2004 vs. Dura-Ace 2004

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by herbert.nrp

- A recent VeloNews article found the DA crankset/bottom bracket to be noticeably stiffer than Record, for what it is worth.

- I have heard that Record is tricky to dial in and keep tuned. True?

- I have heard that it is harder to replace Campy parts. True?

- Record has lots of carbon all over it. Most of it looks non-functional. If so, that seems a little gimmicky. Anybody out there see beauty in DA's industrial-style ugliness?

Thank you for responses.

Do you really need noticably stiffer? Given the test methods,the results and real value of them are somewhat nebulous. Nothing tricky about record 10.Shiamno 10 could be even worse,give the even closer cog spacing. Campy has repair parts and some of it can be repaired. Try repairing alot of the shimano stuff. Think you have heard alot of hooey. You are dropping this kind of money and asking these kinds of questions really makes me wonder.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by herbert.nrp
- A recent VeloNews article found the DA crankset/bottom bracket to be noticeably stiffer than Record, for what it is worth.

What is it worth? Well, when that's essentially the only quantitative comparison possible between the two cranks, I think it is worth a lot. It shows the great job the engineers in Japan did - to make an all alloy crank as light and significantly stiffer than Campag could manage with their carbon technology... Score one to Shimano. OTOH, what's it worth as far as seconds saved in a sprint/climb - probably exactly 0.000.

Quoted post said:

- DA uses the brake levers in the shifting mechanism, while Record uses a separate thumb lever. The Campy system sounds better to me, but I have never used it. (I ride Ultegra now, which works like DA, and I sometimes put on the brakes by mistake while shifting from the drops.) How do people like this?

Well the yellow and green jersey winners of TdF managed to change gears quite nicely using DA and not pull on the brakes... 😉 Isn't that a pretty good verification of their functionality?

Quoted post said:

- Record has lots of carbon all over it. Most of it looks non-functional. If so, that seems a little gimmicky. Anybody out there see beauty in DA's industrial-style ugliness?

Absolutely - I prefer the DA look - it looks (as indeed it is) CAD/CAM/CAE optimized and much more modern. The Record carbon crank is very much a yawn...

So what does a flexy crankset feel like? I've gone from cheap SR to expensive RaceFace on my MTB. Darned if I could feel a difference. Maybe I just have insensitive feet, or maybe they're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Can't say that Record was tricky to set up. I put on a Chorus/Record group last year. Simple, straightforward, and I've adjusted the shifter cables maybe twice in a year of riding.

As far as I know, the Record carbon is all functional. You should see the brake handles in person - very sharp looking.

I prefer the Campy shifter setup to Shimano. Have used Ultegra and 105, and they feel somewhat loose and vague, whereas the Ergo shifters are firm and precise. But, that's personal taste - one of my riding partners thinks the Ergo shifters are too stiff. Try them both and see what you think. This is really the biggest difference in the groups.

In the end, the choice of group is personal taste. Performance and price are close enough that there really is no clear winner on performance alone.

I really think that shimano dura ace 04 is better than the campy record. Campy seems to be living on its past. If you look at record 10 up close you can see casting marks on the carbon on the back of the crank arms and shift levers and rear derailluers. Campy use to be the company that had the best finish and very smooth bearings. I know this seems like a small point but I am not going to pay more money for something because of a name. I work on this stuff every day and they both work excellent. I don't like the feeling of the record shifters when going to a lower gear on the rear, the lever always seems a bit flexy but I think that small lever is great. Look at the the small parts on Campy and Shimano and you can really see the quality differance. That quality of finish costs money to make it look good. As far as small parts go you can get parts for both easily and shimano even comes with tools to take apart your shift levers. Have you tried to replace levers and shifter pods on campy? It is real hard and very expensive. The cabon shift lever is 60 dollars wholesale for the lever. Not cost effective in my mind. I know this is small stuff that really does not matter but it is stuff that bothers me. They are both great setups but campy is behind the times

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by boudreaux
Do you really need noticably stiffer? Given the test methods,the results and real value of them are somewhat nebulous.

Agree completely - hence "for what it is worth".

Nothing tricky about record 10.Shiamno 10 could be even worse,give the even closer cog spacing. Campy has repair parts and some of it can be repaired. Try repairing alot of the shimano stuff. Think you have heard alot of hooey.

Thank you - that info is helpful. In case you are genuinely interested and not just trying to sound smart, I "heard" most of this from postings by Record owners at roadbikereview.com, which I take with the same grain of salt as what I read here.

You are dropping this kind of money and asking these kinds of questions really makes me wonder.

Thank you, but less helpful.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by pudster
As far as small parts go you can get parts for both easily and shimano even comes with tools to take apart your shift levers. Have you tried to replace levers and shifter pods on campy? It is real hard and very expensive. The cabon shift lever is 60 dollars wholesale for the lever. Not cost effective in my mind. I know this is small stuff that really does not matter but it is stuff that bothers me. They are both great setups but campy is behind the times

Actually,you do not take apart and rebuild shimano shifters.You can replace the whole internal guts machanism and lever assembly.It's about cheaper to buy a whole shifter. Campy shifters can be reparied,and even converted from one speed to another.Try that with shimano. Not implying that Campy is better for that,but you need to get your facts straight.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by herbert.nrp
Thank you, but less helpful.

LOL 😉 ...yea that's Boudreaux 😉

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by JohnO
So what does a flexy crankset feel like? I've gone from cheap SR to expensive RaceFace on my MTB. Darned if I could feel a difference.

Fair enough, though it's worth noting that the "technically" flexier Record crankset also costs considerably more than the "technically" stiffer '04 DA crankset -- which is still one of the lighter cranksets on the market. Stiffness may not matter much to most cyclists, but if it's something that manufacturers strive for, the VeloNews test puts things in a very interesting price/value/performance perspective.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by lokstah
the VeloNews test puts things in a very interesting price/value/performance perspective.

Then,what is the real performance gain,and is anyone really going to win or loose a race because of it?? LOL

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by boudreaux
Then,what is the real performance gain,and is anyone really going to win or loose a race because of it?? LOL

Let me rephrase it for you, my cantankerous, Laughing Out Loud friend. Speaking in terms of stiffness, it's worth noting that the $750 crankset generously provides users with an imperceptibly inferior experience to the $399 offering of its chief competitor.

A nutcase in search of unbridled stiffness should look long and hard at the Dura Ace crankset. An enthusiast in search of a top end crankset, and who doesn't give a hoot about stiffness, might also want to consider the Dura Ace crankset, so he can own one of the better cranksets on the market and not spend close to eight hundred dollars on it.

It's all moot in the end because anyone using either of those cranksets likely chose the drivetrain first anyways, not the damn crank. Nobody shops for a drivetrain by gauging crank stiffness.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by lokstah

Nobody shops for a drivetrain by gauging crank stiffness.

Don't go to the bank with that one. I've already heard of folks going for the DA crank on an otherwise campy record setup,just because of all that extra stiffness. LOL: yes indeed!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by lokstah
Let me rephrase it for you, my cantankerous, Laughing Out Loud friend. Speaking in terms of stiffness, it's worth noting that the $750 crankset generously provides users with an imperceptibly inferior experience to the $399 offering of its chief competitor.

A nutcase in search of unbridled stiffness should look long and hard at the Dura Ace crankset. An enthusiast in search of a top end crankset, and who doesn't give a hoot about stiffness, might also want to consider the Dura Ace crankset, so he can own one of the better cranksets on the market and not spend close to eight hundred dollars on it.

I thinkYOU miss the point in that most could go for the standard Record crank,give up little or nothing and spend alot less money.But not get near the style points,which IMHO is exactly what alot of this is about.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by boudreaux
I thinkYOU miss the point in that most could go for the standard Record crank,give up little or nothing and spend alot less money.But not get near the style points,which IMHO is exactly what alot of this is about.

Of course that's the case, boudreaux. But the discussion in the above posts involved a comparison of the Record Carbon crank and the '04 DA crank. That's what Herbert is considering, and that's the reality of the conversation, your desire to be dismissive notwithstanding.

Given that comparison, it's perfectly valid to note that the luxurious model which costs nearly twice as much as the alloy one offers little benefit. Quit fishing for opprotunities to contradict other CyclingForum users, ok?

Ultimately, Herbert, I think you know the answer: these are both excellent, world-class drivetrains, and neither offers any stunning advantages over the other. The single most important factor in this contest is which shifting action you prefer -- in that area, as you probably know, Campy and Shimano are very different, and riders' preferences are important and really come into play.

That, of course, and price. Record costs and arm and a leg; DA costs an arm and most of a leg.

Quoted post said:

Ultimately, Herbert, I think you know the answer: these are both excellent, world-class drivetrains, and neither offers any stunning advantages over the other. The single most important factor in this contest is which shifting action you prefer -- in that area, as you probably know, Campy and Shimano are very different, and riders' preferences are important and really come into play.

erm has everyone missed the point DA is cheaper, and by a significant amount, and stiffer, any rider, of any ability should appreciate the benefits of stiffness in this area, as it only adds to performance and not loss of comfort.
Not only has Shimano been used on the bike of 5 time winner of the TdF LA, but the guy chomping at his heels will also use DA 04 for the first time next season.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Madone
erm has everyone missed the point DA is cheaper, and by a significant amount, and stiffer, any rider, of any ability should appreciate the benefits of stiffness in this area, as it only adds to performance and not loss of comfort.
Not only has Shimano been used on the bike of 5 time winner of the TdF LA, but the guy chomping at his heels will also use DA 04 for the first time next season.

Dura-Ace is cheaper than Record? Who said that? I think the new Dura-Ace 10 speed group is actually MORE expensive than Record 10. Correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I haven't seen any places online that show otherwise.

I have heard that it will be more expensive soon because of the Euro being very strong against the dollar.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by BaCardi
Dura-Ace is cheaper than Record? Who said that? I think the new Dura-Ace 10 speed group is actually MORE expensive than Record 10. Correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I haven't seen any places online that show otherwise.

He's talking record with CARBON cranks.

Do you really need that quality ( ie price ) of gear ? , if you don´t know if you prefer S or Campy I´d save your money until you really know what you want . Do remember that these are the products built for the pros , used as a marketing tool to suck in the rich but innocent who think they need that quality to ride round the park sunday morning .
If you pay too little you normally buy [censored] but there is a point when the increase in price is disproportionate to the increase in quality .

D/Ace 2004 10
Rear Mech short £64.95
Front Mech double band 28.6 £47.95
Ergo / STI Levers double inc. cables £220.95
Hubs pair 28 hole £151.95
Chainset double £201.95
Bottom Bracket double cups only £20.95
Brake Calipers £121.95
Chain £20.95
Pedals SPD-SL £107.95
DURA ACE 10 CASSETTE £81.95

Total £1041.50

Record 2004 10
Rear Mech short £162.95
Front Mech Double band 28, 32 £66.95
Ergo Levers inc. cables £189.95
Hubs pair incl skewers £145.95
Chainset double carbon £374.95
Bottom Bracket double £63.95
Brake Calipers Differential £154.95
Chain £28.95
Pedals Pro-fit Plus £117.9
Cassette Full Titanium £199.95

Total £1306.50
These prices where from a
www.parker-international.co.uk today, and yes I did inc. the Carbon crank as that is the crank most of the previous posts have refered to.
As you can see here in the UK you could get your self a set of training wheels for the cost difference between Shimano and Campy.
I am not trying to put Campy down, and have never had long enough with the group set to have any complaints with it. I personally prefer DA, and at the prices you can may be see why.