recommend a pedal for a clipless noob



In article
<1171e645-bcea-4de3-9fba-19edd278e087@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
Art Harris <[email protected]> wrote:

> Nate Nagel wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm thinking about making the leap to clipless (I've got some fresh rat
> > trap scars on the back of my leg, because I don't have either good
> > pedals or good shoes at the moment) but am not sure what I should try first.
> >
> > Most people are telling me to go SPD, but the guy at the LBS closest to
> > my house tells me I really want Looks for more float (makes sense.)  
> >
>
> I would recomment dual-sided SPD pedals such as the PD-M520. It has
> enough float

The PD-M520 is good. I run its more expensive sibling PD-M540,
for no particular reason.
Drooling for the XTR PD-M970.

First pedal to earn XTR status

Our lightest MTB SPD pedal ever

Flourine [sic] coated binding claws allow easy entry and release

> I started out with Look pedals in the early '90s when they were the
> only think around, and used them untill a few years ago. If you do any
> amount of walking, an SPD pedal with a recessed cleat is a better
> choice. The Look pedals make you walk like a duck, and the plastic
> cleats wear quickly and tend to slip when you put a foot down.
>
> As for a shoe, I'd recommend the Shimano RT-51 because it has a good
> stiff sole which will eliminate "hot spots" due to cleat pressure on
> your foot.
>
> See:
> http://bike.shimano.com/publish/con.../shoes/road/product.-code-SH-RT51.-type-.html

I am shopping around for some RT-51's,
because I have waffle stompers
and want to go with the smooth soles.

--
Michael Press
 
On May 10, 6:10 pm, Nate Nagel <[email protected]> wrote:
> Art Harris wrote:
> > Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> >>I haven't seen anything like the shoes you
> >>recommend above in any of the local stores, but that seems like it would
> >>meet my needs (walkable, but not a MTB shoe. I guess the keyword I
> >>should be using would be "touring?")
>
> > Yes, I can't understand why Shimano doesn't promote their SPD Touring
> > shoes more. I use the now discontinued T092's. Recently Nashbar was
> > selling the similar RT-50's (which seems to have been replaced by the
> > RT-51). These shoes aren't as clunky as MTB shoes, and are great for
> > road riding and walking. Good luck.
>
> > Art Harris
>
> hmm. don't seem to be much of anywhere to buy them based on a quick
> google - most of the hits are European. There also appears to be a more
> expensive RT-80, which I guess is an option as well. Do Shimano shoe
> sizes tend to be consistent across different product lines? Looks like
> I'd have to be fitted for a MTB or road shoe and then order the touring
> shoes online.

The only big diff between the touring shoes and the mtb shoes are some
notches cut out of the nominal soles. Just get something and ride.
More important is that you got enough toe wiggle room. I got narrow
feet and can rock about any shoe as long as the heel cup is decent.
I'm riding cheeeep Exustar mtb shoes I picked up last fall at Nash for
peanuts. Flexier than my old road boards for sure, but walkable. Rode
them sixty miles today without thinking about my feet one second.
Start cheap is my theory, then see if your feet call for support or
help. They might not. If you ride hard and fast, they might scream for
some nicer kit, personally, mine are tough enough to not really care
enough as long as they're restrained and not scrunched up too much.
Yeah, I've ridden much finer kit--but this is cycling, not running, so
as long as it's pretty decent, it's good enough.
 
Nate Nagel wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm thinking about making the leap to clipless (I've got some fresh rat
> trap scars on the back of my leg, because I don't have either good
> pedals or good shoes at the moment) but am not sure what I should try
> first.
>
> Most people are telling me to go SPD, but the guy at the LBS closest to
> my house tells me I really want Looks for more float (makes sense.) I
> don't think he's trying to make a sale because he's got a bucket full of
> used pedals of both types, and he doesn't sell shoes at all. I was
> hoping to be able to walk in whatever shoes I ended up getting but that
> seems to not be an option for either? Also, what about the new SPD-SL?
>
> Also, any recommendations on shoes? I've just been wearing some old
> soccer shoes on platforms and I can tell they're not stiff enough, my
> toes feel a little weird after about 10 miles or so.
>
> I'm not looking for "the best" just something that will work well,
> although I don't mind spending money if there's a real value in spending
> more.
>
> Most of my riding will be on roads, FWIW...
>
Unless you are a racer or a conformist roadie (understood not to be the
case for Nate), DO NOT get shoes that can not be walked in. The
advantages of systems such as Look cleats are not important for anyone
but hard core road racers, while the disadvantages of non-walkable shoes
are obvious.

Will you ever want to stop at a store for a drink? Stop by a concession
stand for something to eat? Walk the bike for a short distance in a
pedestrian area? Park your bike and walk a short distance to a scenic
outlook? All activities such as these are made annoyingly difficult with
large protruding cleats.

An ATB shoe with a stiff sole (e.g. SiDi Dominator) will offer almost
all the performance of roadie shoes and cleats, but can still be walked
in without imitating a duck.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
Michael Press wrote:

>> I'm thinking about making the leap to clipless (I've got some fresh
>> rat trap scars on the back of my leg, because I don't have either
>> good pedals or good shoes at the moment) but am not sure what I
>> should try first.

>> Most people are telling me to go SPD, but the guy at the LBS
>> closest to my house tells me I really want Looks for more float
>> (makes sense.) I don't think he's trying to make a sale because
>> he's got a bucket full of used pedals of both types, and he doesn't
>> sell shoes at all. I was hoping to be able to walk in whatever
>> shoes I ended up getting but that seems to not be an option for
>> either? Also, what about the new SPD-SL?

>> Also, any recommendations on shoes? I've just been wearing some
>> old soccer shoes on platforms and I can tell they're not stiff
>> enough, my toes feel a little weird after about 10 miles or so.

>> I'm not looking for "the best" just something that will work well,
>> although I don't mind spending money if there's a real value in
>> spending more.

>> Most of my riding will be on roads, FWIW...

> The only walkable cleat shoes are SPD type.

> Strongest recommendation. When first you set up the pedals set the
> retention force to the minimum. This will make it easier to learn
> how to clip out, and offer a bit of a safety margin when you forget
> to clip out. When first you ride with them practice coasting along
> and removing a foot from the pedal so you quickly learn to do it
> without thinking. As you approach a traffic stop unclip while still
> rolling. You are going to love the new system.

Shimano has SPD shoes designed for triathletes that have smooth rubber
soles and are so walkable that I wore them to and at work for many
years as well as on long tours where walking indoors on hotel/motel
floors is common. I use the old 737 pedals and am glad that my cleats
give no float with them, being neither pigeon-toed nor duck-footed.

Jobst Brandt
 
[email protected] aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
> Shimano has SPD shoes designed for triathletes that have smooth rubber
> soles and are so walkable that I wore them to and at work for many
> years as well as on long tours where walking indoors on hotel/motel
> floors is common. I use the old 737 pedals and am glad that my cleats
> give no float with them, being neither pigeon-toed nor duck-footed.
>
The Shimano SH-51 "single release" SPD cleat has a specified 4° of
float, which is of course much less than say a Speedplay Frog®. As for
being pigeon-toed or duck-footed, most shoes allow for considerable
variation in the direction the SPD cleat is mounted, and some trial and
error may be required in getting this right with new shoes (when
replacing worn cleats, the indentation left by the serrations on the top
of the cleat makes alignment of the new cleat easy).

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
Tom Sherman wrote:
> [email protected] aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
>>
>> Shimano has SPD shoes designed for triathletes that have smooth rubber
>> soles and are so walkable that I wore them to and at work for many
>> years as well as on long tours where walking indoors on hotel/motel
>> floors is common. I use the old 737 pedals and am glad that my cleats
>> give no float with them, being neither pigeon-toed nor duck-footed.
>>
> The Shimano SH-51 "single release" SPD cleat has a specified 4° of
> float, which is of course much less than say a Speedplay Frog®. As for
> being pigeon-toed or duck-footed, most shoes allow for considerable
> variation in the direction the SPD cleat is mounted, and some trial and
> error may be required in getting this right with new shoes (when
> replacing worn cleats, the indentation left by the serrations on the top
> of the cleat makes alignment of the new cleat easy).
>

F/U: based on the comments in this thread and the facts that REI had a
sale on through today and Dubya apparently got around to sending me my
"stimulus" money yesterday, I went down there and bought myself a set of
the second cheapest SPD pedals (the cheapest ones that have replaceable
bearings.) After looking at Shimano's web site and examples of the
various pedals in the store, it doesn't look like there's a whole lot of
difference between the M540s (the ones I bought) and the more expensive
ones other than a very slight weight difference and a big increase in
price - am I about right here? I tried on some shoes and immediately
nixed the idea of using the Shimano "touring" shoes because I found that
the two Shimano shoes that I did try on were both too narrow for my
duck-like toes and had heel cups that were too big. I did get some
cheap Pearl Izumi MTB shoes that fit me perfectly, they were on sale for
$60 so I figured WTF.

Just got back from trying them out - I can already feel that I'm going
to be faster and more efficient, but either I think my legs are set in
their old ways; I spent about 15 minutes on the porch practicing
clipping in and out while balancing against a picnic table, then just
started riding back and forth through the neighborhood, stopping and
unclipping every couple houses. Man I must have been a sight! I've
found that I apparently have been in the habit of leaving my right foot
on the pedals when I come to a stop and leaning the bike slightly to the
left as I step off. Probably because I'm right handed and therefore
it's easier to start/push myself into the saddle with my right foot.
Well based on some comments here and on bikeforums regarding crashes in
traffic I figured it would be a good idea to start practicing it the
other way as well, boy what a CF. I hope nobody saw me! I never did
actually dump it but came darn close a couple times. I'd clip out, put
my leg down, and apparently out of habit I'd push the bike over to my
left - woops! Got a nice claw mark in the shape of a 53 tooth chainring
on the back of my right leg (matches the mark from the rat traps on my
left leg that started this whole line of experimentation.) Now it's
pouring down rain - started after only a couple circuits of the
neighborhood - but I will have to do this a couple more times before
I'll feel comfortable going out on the roads for real...

anyway, thanks to all for the advice and I hope none of you live on my
street otherwise you're probably laughing your butts off right now...
yes, I know everyone went clipless 10 years ago, what can I say...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
 
On May 11, 2:18 pm, Nate Nagel <[email protected]> wrote:

> Just got back from trying them out - I can already feel that I'm going
> to be faster and more efficient, but either I think my legs are set in
> their old ways; I spent about 15 minutes on the porch practicing
> clipping in and out while balancing against a picnic table, then just
> started riding back and forth through the neighborhood, stopping and
> unclipping every couple houses.  Man I must have been a sight!

I can do a lot better than that-- I got some dirt, apparently, into my
SPD-SL cleat, the right one that I do my in/out and standing with. Got
careless with planning a landing, and dumped it at a busy intersection
when my foot didn't pop out as expected.

Ha ha, I do that once or twice a year, where I'm a little too sure of
myself and don't get the foot unclipped before my "progress to
landing" takes me past the point of no return, where it's too late to
get the foot out and I have to prepare to ditch, gear up <g>. I've had
enough practice at this so I can land pretty softly and kinda roll on
knee and hip with little-no body or bike damage. I've also learned
*not* to make eye contact with observers (and there are always
observers!), much less embarrassment that way!

Actually, I look at it like this: you're a grown-up, out there in
public riding a bicycle and enjoying it. I mean, to a lot of "the
neighbors", you're obviously beyond help in the first place, right?
================
Yup, you have to "pattern" your response so it's automatic, just as
you're doing. Just a little training, your survival instinct will
operate automatically afterwards.

Excuse me as I remind you to keep the cleat screws tight, something
else that gets away from us experts every once in a while.

Got them, like them? Shoes fit/are comfy? Good deal! --D-y
 
On Sat, 10 May 2008 17:45:33 -0700, Michael Press <[email protected]>
wrote:

[---]

>As you approach a traffic stop unclip
>while still rolling.

That's the most important bit to grasp - *always* unclip in advance of
anything which might possibly require you to come to a sudden stop -
traffic lights, road junction, granny threatening to suddenly step of
the pavement in front of you etc.
 
Nate Nagel wrote:

>>> Shimano has SPD shoes designed for triathletes that have smooth
>>> rubber soles and are so walkable that I wore them to and at work
>>> for many years as well as on long tours where walking indoors on
>>> hotel/motel floors is common. I use the old 737 pedals and am
>>> glad that my cleats give no float with them, being neither
>>> pigeon-toed nor duck-footed.

>> The Shimano SH-51 "single release" SPD cleat has a specified 4° of
>> float, which is of course much less than say a Speedplay Frog®. As
>> for being pigeon-toed or duck-footed, most shoes allow for
>> considerable variation in the direction the SPD cleat is mounted,
>> and some trial and error may be required in getting this right with
>> new shoes (when replacing worn cleats, the indentation left by the
>> serrations on the top of the cleat makes alignment of the new cleat
>> easy).

> F/U: based on the comments in this thread and the facts that REI had
> a sale on through today and Dubya apparently got around to sending
> me my "stimulus" money yesterday, I went down there and bought
> myself a set of the second cheapest SPD pedals (the cheapest ones
> that have replaceable bearings.) After looking at Shimano's web
> site and examples of the various pedals in the store, it doesn't
> look like there's a whole lot of difference between the M540s (the
> ones I bought) and the more expensive ones other than a very slight
> weight difference and a big increase in price - am I about right
> here? I tried on some shoes and immediately nixed the idea of using
> the Shimano "touring" shoes because I found that the two Shimano
> shoes that I did try on were both too narrow for my duck-like toes
> and had heel cups that were too big. I did get some cheap Pearl
> Izumi MTB shoes that fit me perfectly, they were on sale for $60 so
> I figured WTF.

When you say MTB shoes, I visualize shoes with knobby tires that track
dirt into any place you walk after crossing a wet surface, especially
a soft one. they aren't called waffle-stompers for nothing. That's
why I suggested the Shimano smooth rubber soled shoes.

http://tinyurl.com/yxfwd3

> Just got back from trying them out - I can already feel that I'm
> going to be faster and more efficient, but either I think my legs
> are set in their old ways; I spent about 15 minutes on the porch
> practicing clipping in and out while balancing against a picnic
> table, then just started riding back and forth through the
> neighborhood, stopping and unclipping every couple houses. Man I
> must have been a sight! I've found that I apparently have been in
> the habit of leaving my right foot on the pedals when I come to a
> stop and leaning the bike slightly to the left as I step off.
> Probably because I'm right handed and therefore it's easier to
> start/push myself into the saddle with my right foot.

The big difference is that release is by twisting to either side, but
more by default, just pushing the heel of the landing foot toward the
ground on the side chosen. Years ago, when clipless/strapless pedals
first took over, I recall often seeing experienced riders lying on the
ground where they had stopped. That no longer occurs because they
learned to not attempt pulling out rearward, but to twist the foot to
either side to disengage.

> Well based on some comments here and on bike forums regarding
> crashes in traffic I figured it would be a good idea to start
> practicing it the other way as well, boy what a CF. I hope nobody
> saw me! I never did actually dump it but came darn close a couple
> times. I'd clip out, put my leg down, and apparently out of habit
> I'd push the bike over to my left - whoops! Got a nice claw mark in
> the shape of a 53 tooth chainring on the back of my right leg
> (matches the mark from the rat traps on my left leg that started
> this whole line of experimentation.) Now it's pouring down rain -
> started after only a couple circuits of the neighborhood - but I
> will have to do this a couple more times before I'll feel
> comfortable going out on the roads for real...

That's not the problem. When falling or getting hit by another bikie
or car, feet are usually out of the pedals before the rider hits the
ground automatically. That is not something I consider worth
practicing.

> anyway, thanks to all for the advice and I hope none of you live on
> my street otherwise you're probably laughing your butts off right
> now... yes, I know everyone went clipless 10 years ago, what can I
> say...

Don't worry about appearances. People who laugh at you aren't worth
knowing anyway.

Jobst Brandt
 
Nate Nagel wrote:

>>> Shimano has SPD shoes designed for triathletes that have smooth
>>> rubber soles and are so walkable that I wore them to and at work
>>> for many years as well as on long tours where walking indoors on
>>> hotel/motel floors is common. I use the old 737 pedals and am
>>> glad that my cleats give no float with them, being neither
>>> pigeon-toed nor duck-footed.

>> The Shimano SH-51 "single release" SPD cleat has a specified 4° of
>> float, which is of course much less than say a Speedplay Frog®. As
>> for being pigeon-toed or duck-footed, most shoes allow for
>> considerable variation in the direction the SPD cleat is mounted,
>> and some trial and error may be required in getting this right with
>> new shoes (when replacing worn cleats, the indentation left by the
>> serrations on the top of the cleat makes alignment of the new cleat
>> easy).

> F/U: based on the comments in this thread and the facts that REI had
> a sale on through today and Dubya apparently got around to sending
> me my "stimulus" money yesterday, I went down there and bought
> myself a set of the second cheapest SPD pedals (the cheapest ones
> that have replaceable bearings.) After looking at Shimano's web
> site and examples of the various pedals in the store, it doesn't
> look like there's a whole lot of difference between the M540s (the
> ones I bought) and the more expensive ones other than a very slight
> weight difference and a big increase in price - am I about right
> here? I tried on some shoes and immediately nixed the idea of using
> the Shimano "touring" shoes because I found that the two Shimano
> shoes that I did try on were both too narrow for my duck-like toes
> and had heel cups that were too big. I did get some cheap Pearl
> Izumi MTB shoes that fit me perfectly, they were on sale for $60 so
> I figured WTF.

When you say MTB shoes, I visualize shoes with knobby tires that track
dirt into any place you walk after crossing a wet surface, especially
a soft one. They aren't called waffle-stompers for nothing. That's
why I suggested the Shimano smooth rubber soled shoes.

http://tinyurl.com/yxfwd3

> Just got back from trying them out - I can already feel that I'm
> going to be faster and more efficient, but either I think my legs
> are set in their old ways; I spent about 15 minutes on the porch
> practicing clipping in and out while balancing against a picnic
> table, then just started riding back and forth through the
> neighborhood, stopping and unclipping every couple houses. Man I
> must have been a sight! I've found that I apparently have been in
> the habit of leaving my right foot on the pedals when I come to a
> stop and leaning the bike slightly to the left as I step off.
> Probably because I'm right handed and therefore it's easier to
> start/push myself into the saddle with my right foot.

The big difference is that release is by twisting to either side, but
more by default, just pushing the heel of the landing foot toward the
ground on the side chosen. Years ago, when clipless/strapless pedals
first took over, I recall often seeing experienced riders lying on the
ground where they had stopped. That no longer occurs because they
learned to not attempt pulling out rearward, but to twist the foot to
either side to disengage.

> Well based on some comments here and on bike forums regarding
> crashes in traffic I figured it would be a good idea to start
> practicing it the other way as well, boy what a CF. I hope nobody
> saw me! I never did actually dump it but came darn close a couple
> times. I'd clip out, put my leg down, and apparently out of habit
> I'd push the bike over to my left - whoops! Got a nice claw mark in
> the shape of a 53 tooth chainring on the back of my right leg
> (matches the mark from the rat traps on my left leg that started
> this whole line of experimentation.) Now it's pouring down rain -
> started after only a couple circuits of the neighborhood - but I
> will have to do this a couple more times before I'll feel
> comfortable going out on the roads for real...

That's not the problem. When falling or getting hit by another bikie
or car, feet are usually out of the pedals before the rider hits the
ground automatically. That is not something I consider worth
practicing.

> anyway, thanks to all for the advice and I hope none of you live on
> my street otherwise you're probably laughing your butts off right
> now... yes, I know everyone went clipless 10 years ago, what can I
> say...

Don't worry about appearances. People who laugh at you aren't worth
knowing anyway.

Jobst Brandt
 
[email protected] wrote:
> On May 11, 2:18 pm, Nate Nagel <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Just got back from trying them out - I can already feel that I'm going
>>to be faster and more efficient, but either I think my legs are set in
>>their old ways; I spent about 15 minutes on the porch practicing
>>clipping in and out while balancing against a picnic table, then just
>>started riding back and forth through the neighborhood, stopping and
>>unclipping every couple houses. Man I must have been a sight!
>
>
> I can do a lot better than that-- I got some dirt, apparently, into my
> SPD-SL cleat, the right one that I do my in/out and standing with. Got
> careless with planning a landing, and dumped it at a busy intersection
> when my foot didn't pop out as expected.
>
> Ha ha, I do that once or twice a year, where I'm a little too sure of
> myself and don't get the foot unclipped before my "progress to
> landing" takes me past the point of no return, where it's too late to
> get the foot out and I have to prepare to ditch, gear up <g>. I've had
> enough practice at this so I can land pretty softly and kinda roll on
> knee and hip with little-no body or bike damage. I've also learned
> *not* to make eye contact with observers (and there are always
> observers!), much less embarrassment that way!

If it makes you feel any better, here's the incident that prompted this
foray into SPD-land... I was riding down the W&OD trail, came to an
intersection with a road. I stopped and dismounted as cars were coming
both ways. Well the traffic decided to be nice and stop to let me
cross, so I put my right foot on, pushed off hard, planted my left foot
(while still out of the saddle,) put all my weight on it to get moving
fast, and apparently I didn't do it quite right, my foot slipped off the
pedal and somehow I managed to hit something solid with the arch of my
foot (nice purple mark there) dragged the pedal up my calf (couple
stripes there) and bounced my harbles off the top tube (oh, the joys of
a high bottom bracket. I think that day I hadn't planned on a "serious"
ride so I was actually wearing plain old boxer shorts, so that didn't
help any.) Managed to recover without dumping it and accelerated
through the intersection while literally seeing stars. That's good stuff.

There, feel better?

The other issue was I was just using some old soccer shoes and after
about 10 miles or so I was starting to feel what I guess is known as
"hot foot" so I figured if I was going to keep doing this I'd better get
some proper biking shoes anyway so I didn't wreck my feet. Which is odd
because I used to ride all over the place in HS and never noticed any
issues, I guess I must have been more indestructable back then (or maybe
old running shoes, which is probably what I wore most of the time back
then, were more suitable?)

>
> Actually, I look at it like this: you're a grown-up, out there in
> public riding a bicycle and enjoying it. I mean, to a lot of "the
> neighbors", you're obviously beyond help in the first place, right?

Actually, I really like my neighborhood - it's a good cross section of
granola munching hippies with a smattering of guys with ancient sports
cars in their driveways, and also a couple of immigrants thrown in to
round out the mix. In other words, people I can identify with. It's a
Good Thing. It also means that nobody *****es about my "low
maintenance" yard, which is nice. (no grass, just trees and stuff like
may apples, ferns, blue bells, a handful of hostas and trillum etc. etc.
etc.)

> ================
> Yup, you have to "pattern" your response so it's automatic, just as
> you're doing. Just a little training, your survival instinct will
> operate automatically afterwards.

Yeah, I think I might have tried to do two things at once though - get
used to the SPDs and also condition myself to dismount to the right, not
realizing that I've apparently been dismounting to the left my entire
riding life without realizing that it made any difference. Maybe I'll
defer the second until I'm more comfortable with the first. I also
loosened up the tension on the clips after I got back, which I probably
should have done first, but I was feeling cocky.

>
> Excuse me as I remind you to keep the cleat screws tight, something
> else that gets away from us experts every once in a while.

Good tip, I'll take any, no matter how basic they may seem.

> Got them, like them? Shoes fit/are comfy? Good deal! --D-y

Actually, I'm quite surprised, like I said they were $60 (on sale) and
actually fit me better than most of the shoes in my closet. I've got
very odd shaped feet - narrow, dainty heels but wide, ducklike toes.
Great if you're a competitive swimmer (as I was, at least in HS) but not
so good if you're trying to find any kind of athletic-esque footwear
that fits properly. Two thumbs up. Here they are, if anyone else has
similar feet:

http://www.pearlizumi.com/product.php?mode=view&pc_id=43&product_id=1239766

Incidentally, I positioned the cleats in what I ASSume is the "default"
position - under the balls of my feet, and about centered laterally.
Are there any guidelines to fine tuning them once I get used to them, or
is it more a "just try a couple different positions and find what works"
kind of process?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>
>>>>Shimano has SPD shoes designed for triathletes that have smooth
>>>>rubber soles and are so walkable that I wore them to and at work
>>>>for many years as well as on long tours where walking indoors on
>>>>hotel/motel floors is common. I use the old 737 pedals and am
>>>>glad that my cleats give no float with them, being neither
>>>>pigeon-toed nor duck-footed.
>
>
>>>The Shimano SH-51 "single release" SPD cleat has a specified 4° of
>>>float, which is of course much less than say a Speedplay Frog®. As
>>>for being pigeon-toed or duck-footed, most shoes allow for
>>>considerable variation in the direction the SPD cleat is mounted,
>>>and some trial and error may be required in getting this right with
>>>new shoes (when replacing worn cleats, the indentation left by the
>>>serrations on the top of the cleat makes alignment of the new cleat
>>>easy).
>
>
>>F/U: based on the comments in this thread and the facts that REI had
>>a sale on through today and Dubya apparently got around to sending
>>me my "stimulus" money yesterday, I went down there and bought
>>myself a set of the second cheapest SPD pedals (the cheapest ones
>>that have replaceable bearings.) After looking at Shimano's web
>>site and examples of the various pedals in the store, it doesn't
>>look like there's a whole lot of difference between the M540s (the
>>ones I bought) and the more expensive ones other than a very slight
>>weight difference and a big increase in price - am I about right
>>here? I tried on some shoes and immediately nixed the idea of using
>>the Shimano "touring" shoes because I found that the two Shimano
>>shoes that I did try on were both too narrow for my duck-like toes
>>and had heel cups that were too big. I did get some cheap Pearl
>>Izumi MTB shoes that fit me perfectly, they were on sale for $60 so
>>I figured WTF.
>
>
> When you say MTB shoes, I visualize shoes with knobby tires that track
> dirt into any place you walk after crossing a wet surface, especially
> a soft one. They aren't called waffle-stompers for nothing. That's
> why I suggested the Shimano smooth rubber soled shoes.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yxfwd3

Believe me, I was listening to you and was sold on the concept - my
original plan was to trial fit some Shimano shoes to find what size I
should get, and then order a pair of either the RT-51s or the RT-80s
(the RT-50 in your link appears to be discontinued, at least here in the
US, and Nashbar is already out of my size) you suggested. However,
based on the three different pairs of Shimano shoes that I tried on at
REI, they just wouldn't have fit me. Too narrow in the front, and there
was something hard in there that was cramping my pinkie toe, while my
heel was slopping all around in the back. I figured that having to be
careful about knocking the mud out was better than fighting with shoes
that just don't fit my odd-shaped feet.

<snip>

> Don't worry about appearances. People who laugh at you aren't worth
> knowing anyway.

Well, I laugh at people all the time and... well... I guess I am a bit
of a jerk :)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
 
On May 11, 2:18 pm, Nate Nagel <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well based on some comments here and on bikeforums regarding crashes in
> traffic I figured it would be a good idea to start practicing it the
> other way as well, boy what a CF.

Stop figgurin. Stay consistent. I find that keepin' your "butter" foot
clipped in at stops at around 2 o clock and using your non-primary
foot as the stand consistently is the way to go. No getting fancy, and
having to think, especially for those of us that ride spuds and fixed
gear in traffic.

As far as cleat position goes, ball of foot is fine. How do your feet
normally want to point on the pedals? Point the cleats lightly in that
direction as needed. There's float, so if you're a little sloppy, you
won't suffer too much. Grease or loctite the cleat screws. Get them
tight, or they *will* loosen and fall out when you're in Bumfuque.
 
"landotter" wrote:
> On May 11, 2:18 pm, Nate Nagel <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Well based on some comments here and on bikeforums regarding crashes in
>> traffic I figured it would be a good idea to start practicing it the
>> other way as well, boy what a CF.
>
> Stop figgurin. Stay consistent. I find that keepin' your "butter" foot
> clipped in at stops at around 2 o clock and using your non-primary
> foot as the stand consistently is the way to go. No getting fancy, and
> having to think, especially for those of us that ride spuds and fixed
> gear in traffic.
>
Just watch out for the greasy area between the normal automotive wheel
tracks when you plant your "stand" foot when riding in urban areas in
the rain.

> As far as cleat position goes, ball of foot is fine. How do your feet
> normally want to point on the pedals? Point the cleats lightly in that
> direction as needed. There's float, so if you're a little sloppy, you
> won't suffer too much. Grease or loctite the cleat screws. Get them
> tight, or they *will* loosen and fall out when you're in Bumfuque.

I thought it was spelled "Bumphuque".

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
On May 11, 5:05 pm, Nate Nagel <[email protected]> wrote:

> If it makes you feel any better, here's the incident that prompted this
> foray into SPD-land...

(snipped gory details)

> There, feel better?

I've felt your pain, if not in exact detail. What can I say, we've all
done our best, at least once, you know?

However: This is not a contest, thankyouverymuch <g>. IOW, let's not
get a World's Most Painful Videos thing going on here...

> The other issue was I was just using some old soccer shoes and after
> about 10 miles or so I was starting to feel what I guess is known as
> "hot foot" (snip)

Clipless saves a lot of wear and tear on your feet, compared to clips
and straps. Important esp. as the personal year count progresses.
And clipless obviates getting the running shoe stuck in a clip/strap
pedal, of course. Good deal, there.

> Actually, I really like my neighborhood -

I was only speaking in broad generalities.

> I also
> loosened up the tension on the clips after I got back, which I probably
> should have done first, but I was feeling cocky.

Well, what Jobst said about "automatic" I found to be true in one "how
did I do that?" save-- managed to stick a wheel in a curving expansion
gap on a concrete slab road (just a plastic "cap" there, not the
filled-in gap I expected), with my body suddenly going one way and the
bike being forced another. New cleats/pedals I'd been fussing with,
both getting in and out, were no impediment to immediate, unthinking
de-clip and a damage-preventing bit of pavement waterskiing. But, for
traffic (stopping at intersections) situations, I'd rather practice a
little just to be sure. Not that I've achieved perfection of course
(as noted).

> http://www.pearlizumi.com/product.php?mode=view&pc_id=43&product_id=1...

Good reference, thanks.

> Incidentally, I positioned the cleats in what I ASSume is the "default"
> position - under the balls of my feet, and about centered laterally.
> Are there any guidelines to fine tuning them once I get used to them, or
> is it more a "just try a couple different positions and find what works"
> kind of process?

Um... they don't have to match perfectly, side to side <g>, and it
comes down to what works for you. It's a can of worms, potentially--
I've seen people, esp. back in the old days of clips and straps,
change cleat positions often due to discomfort (sore knees), searching
for a setup that worked, and observed that maybe it was the constant
change that was the problem for these roadies who were riding a
(relative) large number of miles, relatively fast...

Yeah, since they working OK, keep them on there as they are and see
how it goes; you might leave them there forever or find you'd like
more "foot forward" or back, or maybe one foot likes to be pointed
with toes in or out a little compared to the other.

There have been discussions here, of course, which are google-able.
One such suggested "feet forward" as a help for sore knees; I tried
that and it seemed to work out-- not that my knees were bad at the
time, but more as a preventative against an old problem repeating.
--D-y
 

>
> This is almost a helmet troll. I have always been a Look guy but if I had
> it to do over again I'd have gone Speedplay.
>

I loved the speedplays but the cleats will distort if you walk on them
(without the "coffee shop cap covers" you can buy separately). I had
the caps but kept losing them in dirt or mud which just is inevitable
over time. The cleats will have clip in/out problems if they distort,
which can be dangerous..
I switched to the Crank Bros. cleats after having just such problems
with the speedplays. The Crank Brothers cleats are much more durable
for being walked on. I actually liked the speedplays more but would
rather not worry about the cleat system.
 
On Sun, 11 May 2008 15:32:54 -0700 (PDT), landotter
<[email protected]> wrote:

[---]

>As far as cleat position goes, ball of foot is fine.

Yes.

>How do your feet
>normally want to point on the pedals? Point the cleats lightly in that
>direction as needed.

Didn't you mean the *opposite* direction? For example, if a rider has
naturally outward turning feet, they will be in their "neutral"
position when they are to the left and right of the fore-and-aft axis
of the bike pedals, rather than being aligned with it. The cleats, on
the other hand, will be "neutral" in float terms, when they are
aligned with that axis.

To compensate for that discrepancy and to allow equal amounts of float
left and right, the cleats should point forward when the rider's feet
are in their "neutral" position. This would imply cleats turning
inwards on shoes for a rider with outward turning feet.
 
Art Harris <[email protected]> wrote:

>> I am shopping around for some RT-51's, because I have waffle
>> stompers and want to go with the smooth soles.

> These guys seem to have them in most szes:

http://penncycle.com/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&id=15762

http://penncycle.com/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&id=15633

> From my experience with the similar Shimano T092 shoes, they tend to
> run a size small. I had to exchange a size 47 for 48.

I'm not sure hw shoe widths vary with size, but with SPD pedals,
riding a larger shoe with a bit of extra toe clearance doesn't bother
the pedal fit and can acommodate a wider foot. I find being able to
walk in doors without leaving waffle stomper debris or scrtching
hardwood floors is worth using smooth soled shoes. I'v been doing
that for a lot of years with success.

http://tinyurl.com/yxfwd3

Jobst Brandt
 
On Sat, 10 May 2008 13:31:31, [email protected] wrote:

> For a shoe to be walkable, it needs a recessed cleat. SPD are the only
> type that can be in a recess in the shoe. However they do not need to
> be in a recess to work. Only to walk.

Just to be clear: I think Joseph means the SPD Bolt-pattern. There are
several types of incompatible cleat/pedals that use the two-bolt SPD
bolt connection and can be used with walkable MTB shoes:

Among those include Shimano SPD (and several compatible brands), Time
ATAC, SpeedPlay Frogs, Crank Bros Eggbeaters, and several others.

I'd suggest to the Original Poster that he just buy cheap Shimano SPD
pedals or some off-brand, but cleat-compatible ones. Some of the
cheapest off-brands look very similar to SPD, but don't have cleats
that work with SPD pedals.

I personally use Time ATAC's on all my bikes (road, MTB, touring).
ATACs and Eggbeaters have an advantage over SPD in that they are
better at dealing with mud, but there is a distinct disadvantage to
going with pedals that have non-SPD cleats. If you ever take a
spinning class, most places have pedals that can accept SPD cleats.
Also, if you are test riding bikes, virtually any store can install a
pair of SPD-compatible pedals for you.

I get around these issues by putting SPD cleats on a pair of "retired"
shoes, but am inconvenienced if I forget to bring them along.

-alan

--
Alan Hoyle - [email protected] - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
 
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