Rebuilding a new Groupset

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Rick <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Hi all,
a question I am looking at upgrading my road bike from 9 speed
ultegra to 9 speed Dura ace, can i do this myself or do i have to get
my LBS to to do it for me?
I am planning to change the shifters & both derailleurs, so any help
or advice including do I need any special tools etc would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks Rick

I'm honestly curious what you are getting (what you believe you will get) in
such an upgrade. My experience has let me downgrade, over the years, from
Super Record, to Chorus, to Daytona/Centaur. And I don't think so badly of
Veloce. I know I have become slower, but the component performance has not
suffered. In fact, since the Campy routine is to downgrade the naming of
components when new ones arrive, I think a Veloce rear derailleur of today
is probably as good as a Record one ten years ago. Isn't Shimano somewhat
parallel in this way ?

--
Bonne route,

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

Rick said:

I am looking at upgrading my road bike from 9 speed ultegra to 9 speed Dura ace, can i do this myself ...?

Sure, but I think you're wasting your money. The 9 sp Ultegra performs
just as well as Dura Ace. If you have a triple, Ultegra is actually
superior.

Art Harris

Art Harris said:

Rick said:

I am looking at upgrading my road bike from 9 speed ultegra to 9 speed Dura ace, can i do this myself ...?

Sure, but I think you're wasting your money. The 9 sp Ultegra performs
just as well as Dura Ace. If you have a triple, Ultegra is actually
superior.

Art Harris

Let me second that. With Campagnolo, the Record at least does not
perform worse than the Chorus, while in many situations Dura ace is
inferior to the Ultegra -- this is most definitely true for triple front
derailleurs.

--
Bob Wheeler --- http://www.bobwheeler.com/
ECHIP, Inc. ---
Randomness comes in bunches.

Rick said:

Hi all,
a question I am looking at upgrading my road bike from 9 speed ultegra to 9
speed Dura ace, can i do this myself or do i have to get my LBS to to do it
for me?
I am planning to change the shifters & both derailleurs, so any help or
advice including do I need any special tools etc would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks Rick

A note. 9s DA will become 'obsolete' late this year when DA becomes 10s
and triple. The only 9s DA now available is the triple version(which
works fine fore a double also).

But to 'upgrade' to DA, get the levers, etc. and put it on but don't
expect any real difference unless some of your ultegra stuff is worn
out. Same for Campag...unless worn out the performance differences
from DA to ultegra is non existent.

Might look at Chorus as well. No more busted lever, gotta replace
problems with Campagnolo. All you need to upgrade is ERGO and a rear
der.

As others have said, this is a pointless upgrade.

However, it is very easy to do. Standard allen keys should be all that
you need. You can do it piece by piece - everything is totally
compatible - so if you're pressed for time, you can swap the rear
derailleur one evening, the front the next, and so on.

Since you're replacing the shifters, you might as well buy some new bar
tape, and replace all of the cables at the same time (both shift and
brake cables). For that you'll need a good pair of cable cutters, but
that's all.

Sandy said:

My experience has let me downgrade, over the
years, from Super Record, to Chorus, to Daytona/Centaur. And I don't
think so badly of Veloce. I know I have become slower, but the
component performance has not suffered. In fact, since the Campy
routine is to downgrade the naming of components when new ones arrive, I
think a Veloce rear derailleur of today is probably as good as a Record
one ten years ago.

Little question that today's Veloce would beat a Nuovo/Super record
setup for shifting.

Veloce today is an incredible value for the $, especially in the eyes of
those of us who started fixing bikes in the 70s.

Even though I have a bunch of Chorus stuff now, I can't say it functions
a whole lot better than the Veloce (which I also have a bunch of), just
a tad prettier and lighter, but even then not by much.

Mark Janeba

Art Harris said:

Rick said:

I am looking at upgrading my road bike from 9 speed ultegra to 9
speed Dura ace, can i do this myself ...?

Sure, but I think you're wasting your money. The 9 sp Ultegra performs
just as well as Dura Ace. If you have a triple, Ultegra is actually
superior.

Art Harris

Art: Interesting you should say that. Why do you think the Ultegra triple
better than its' Dura Ace counterpart? (not being contensious, just curious
for your opinion) I believe the opposite and have upgraded all my bikes to
the D/A triple.

Rick said:

Hi all,
a question I am looking at upgrading my road bike from 9 speed ultegra to 9
speed Dura ace, can i do this myself or do i have to get my LBS to to do it
for me?
I am planning to change the shifters & both derailleurs, so any help or
advice including do I need any special tools etc would be greatly
appreciated.

Set of allen keys, decent cable cutters.

One place where ultegra may be "better" than DA is in the crank.
Besides price, with DA triple crank, the small, inner granny chairing
is limited to one size due to the proprietary 92mm bolt pattern. Thus,
you can only get a 30t chainring from Shimano.

In contast, with the ultegra triple crank, it has a standard 74mm bolt
pattern for its granny chainring. That means you can get an inner
granny chainring from 24-30t. Further, you are not limited to one
manufacturer. You can get a 74mm chainring from TA, Willow, Salsa,
Engagement, Sugino, Shimano, and, even, glup, Campy!

Another place where ultegra may be "better" than DA is the bb,
especially for 9 speed stuff. Ultegra bb is a sealed cartridge bearing
unit. DA is cup and cone. That means that even on occasions, DA has to
be rebuilt.

One place where DA is better than ultegra is the sti levers. With DA,
you get a 3 year warranty. Ultegra and all other shimano groups only
get 2 years. So, if your DA sti levers go south, within the 3 year
warranty period, you can get it replaced!

"Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:42a5dd95.0@entanet...

Quoted message said:

Rick said:

Hi all,
a question I am looking at upgrading my road bike from 9

speed ultegra to 9

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

speed Dura ace, can i do this myself or do i have to get my

LBS to to do it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for me?
I am planning to change the shifters & both derailleurs, so

any help or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

advice including do I need any special tools etc would be

greatly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

appreciated.

Set of allen keys, decent cable cutters.

A beer, a T.V. -- Jay Beattie.

bfd said:

One place where ultegra may be "better" than DA is in the crank.
Besides price, with DA triple crank, the small, inner granny chairing
is limited to one size due to the proprietary 92mm bolt pattern. Thus,
you can only get a 30t chainring from Shimano.

In contast, with the ultegra triple crank, it has a standard 74mm bolt
pattern for its granny chainring. That means you can get an inner
granny chainring from 24-30t. Further, you are not limited to one
manufacturer. You can get a 74mm chainring from TA, Willow, Salsa,
Engagement, Sugino, Shimano, and, even, glup, Campy!

Another place where ultegra may be "better" than DA is the bb,
especially for 9 speed stuff. Ultegra bb is a sealed cartridge bearing
unit. DA is cup and cone. That means that even on occasions, DA has to
be rebuilt.

One place where DA is better than ultegra is the sti levers. With DA,
you get a 3 year warranty. Ultegra and all other shimano groups only
get 2 years. So, if your DA sti levers go south, within the 3 year
warranty period, you can get it replaced!

Thanks for your reply. However what you've said doesn't seem make the
Ultegra triple components better, just different. BTW, the Dura Ace triple
bottom bracket is a sealed unit, like the Ultegra.

OK, if you don't think limiting yourself to a proprietary bolt pattern
and the choice of only ONE chainring in ONE size, a factor, then you're
right.

As for the bb, you better take a look, especially if you ride in the
rain:

Dura Ace 7700/7703 bb (see Maintenance area):

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/media/cycling/techdocs/en/bikecomponents/BB/SI-bb7703_v2_m56577569830485009.pdf

It doesn't say *sealed cartridge unit* like the ultegra.....

Mark Janeba said:

Even though I have a bunch of Chorus stuff now, I can't say it functions
a whole lot better than the Veloce (which I also have a bunch of), just
a tad prettier and lighter, but even then not by much.

Actually we are all benefits of Shimano's dominance of the indexed
gear system market. I believe this to be true : it's so difficult to
design a working indexed gear system, that there are only 2 slightly
different designs offered - Shimano and Campagnolo. According to
Frank Berto's book Campagnolo threw in the towel in the early 1990's
and copied Shimano's dura ace designs.

In the old days a manufacturer could ship an arbitrarily bad front
(pushrod) or rear (flimsy parallelograms with 2 weak springs)
derailleur as a means to encourage a second "upgrade" sale.

Today, a low end indexed component has to jump over a pretty high bar
just to call itself "indexed shifting." I think this has caused a big
compression in the quality level between low-end and high-end shifting
components, for both Campagnolo and Shimano. If you look at the
campagnolo parts catalogues, in some years the same critical parts has
been used all the way throughout the line with no changes at all, or
cosmetic changes only.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Mark Janeba said:

Even though I have a bunch of Chorus stuff now, I can't say it
functions a whole lot better than the Veloce (which I also have a
bunch of), just a tad prettier and lighter, but even then not by much.

Actually we are all beneficiaries of Shimano's dominance of the
indexed gear system market. I believe this to be true : it's so
difficult to design a working indexed gear system, that there are only
2 slightly different designs offered - Shimano and Campagnolo.
According to Frank Berto's derailleur book, Campagnolo threw in the
towel in the early 1990's and copied Shimano's dura ace designs.

In the old days a manufacturer could ship an arbitrarily bad front
(pushrod) or rear (flimsy parallelograms with only 2 weak springs)
derailleur as a means to encourage a second "upgrade" sale.

Today, a low end indexed component has to jump over a pretty high bar
just to call itself "indexed shifting." I think this has caused a big
compression in the quality level between low-end and high-end shifting
components, for both Campagnolo and Shimano. If you look at the
campagnolo parts catalogues, in some years the same critical parts has
been used all the way throughout the line with no changes at all, or
with cosmetic changes only.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

What shifts better than a $20 shimano rear derailleur? Nothing!

bfd said:

OK, if you don't think limiting yourself to a proprietary bolt pattern
and the choice of only ONE chainring in ONE size, a factor, then
you're right.

As for the bb, you better take a look, especially if you ride in the
rain:

Dura Ace 7700/7703 bb (see Maintenance area):

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/media/cycling/techdocs/en/bikecomponents/BB/SI-bb7703_v2_m56577569830485009.pdf

Quoted message said:

It doesn't say *sealed cartridge unit* like the ultegra.....

If you look at the installation instructions on the page you provided, you
will see *two* sets of instructions; one for the maintenance and
installation of the BB7700 (double) bottom bracket, one for the BB7300
(triple) bottom bracket.

I have on my desk as I am typing this, a BB7300 *sealed* bottom bracket.
I'll be happy to send you pics.

bfd said:

OK, if you don't think limiting yourself to a proprietary bolt pattern
and the choice of only ONE chainring in ONE size, a factor, then you're
right.

As for the bb, you better take a look, especially if you ride in the
rain:

Dura Ace 7700/7703 bb (see Maintenance area):

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/media/cycling/techdocs/en/bikecomponents/BB/SI-bb7703_v2_m56577569830485009.pdf

It doesn't say *sealed cartridge unit* like the ultegra.....

Hi, I have a DA 7703 BB, it is a sealed unit. It is only the double
that is different. By the way, I installed it, so I won't have to take
another look, definitely sealed.

Life is Good!
Jeff

On 7 Jun 2005 07:33:27 -0700, "sunderland" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

As others have said, this is a pointless upgrade.

However, it is very easy to do. Standard allen keys should be all that
you need. You can do it piece by piece - everything is totally
compatible - so if you're pressed for time, you can swap the rear
derailleur one evening, the front the next, and so on.

Since you're replacing the shifters, you might as well buy some new bar
tape, and replace all of the cables at the same time (both shift and
brake cables). For that you'll need a good pair of cable cutters, but
that's all.

It maynot be pointless, maybe he has a ton miles on the Ultegra gear
and it is really worn out. It could happen;-)

The new STI shifters come with all new cables, and it will be easier
to use the new ones, than to reuse the old.

To the OP, as others have said, this is not hard to do. The new
components usually come with instructions and the Park Tool website
covers the rest.

Be sure to use grease on all bolts and threads.

Life is Good!
Jeff

Excellent! Shimano did the right thing and made the DA triple bb a
sealed cartridge. They should have done that with the double one too.

Does anyone know what the difference is between the ultegra triple bb
and the DA 9 triple bb? less weight?