Reasonable NYCM Goal

Quoted message said:

If your half marathon time was your best shot, then you've got to go with
that to calculate your marathon performance. That would be about 4:19 for
the marathon.

What sort of weekly mileage and long runs are you running? Getting in some
long runs in the 3 hour range could train your body to handle the

distances

Quoted message said:

as well as give you the opportunity to experiment with fluid replacement
drinks and/or gels, etc.

My training schedule has me running 45 to 50 miles per week. I've done
three 20 milers, and I'll do one more next Saturday, and the race is two
weeks after that. I'll be doing a couple of middle distance runs this
Tuesday and the following Monday, but I'll complete them in under 90 minutes
and have no real difficulties at that point.

I would be happy with a 4:19 for this one. I just don't want to set my
sights too low as I know that the slower half time was due to the blood
sugar crash. The reality is though, that it is likely to happen in the race
unless I can find some solution.

Sugary drinks or candies help during runs, but I stopped using those as they
cause me to have a severe crash later. I nearly passed out at church one
day after a long run during which I kept going on hard candy. Today I used
trail mix which will sometimes work. I 'm almost thinking that I didn't eat
enough calories in the last two days before the race. I don't know.

Leafing through rec.running, I read Mrsg's message of 16 Oct 2004:

Quoted message said:

I'm open to suggestions on a reasonable goal time. I would also love
to hear any suggestions for dealing with the blood sugar crashes that
I experience. I know that it's late in the game to be trying
something new, but I do still have one more twenty mile training run
next Saturday in which to experiment.
Michelle

If your half marathon time was your best shot, then you've got to go with
that to calculate your marathon performance. That would be about 4:19 for
the marathon.

What sort of weekly mileage and long runs are you running? Getting in some
long runs in the 3 hour range could train your body to handle the distances
as well as give you the opportunity to experiment with fluid replacement
drinks and/or gels, etc.

Phil M.

--
"What counts in battle is what you do once the pain sets in." -John Short,
South African coach.

What foods/drinks did you experiment with and what were the results? It

Quoted message said:

also might be helpful if you gave a little history of your blood-sugar
problem. Do you know the cause? This would seem to be the critical

factor

Quoted message said:

in your marathon because if you had a setback at 10 miles in a HM, you

could

Quoted message said:

have a serious problem during the marathon.

- Tony

I have what my endocrinologist is calling a pre-diabetic condition. It
causes me to have episodes of low blood sugar even during normal daily
activities if I don't follow a food plan that his dietician designed. The
plan involves eating small meals every three hours throughout the day. The
meals must contain protein and/or fat along with carbohydrate. This works
well for me, and the doctor is pleased. He feels that without my adherance
to the diet along with my running I would be into full blown diabetes by
now. I did have gestational diabetes with both of my pregnancies when I was
younger.

The food experimenting I have done in the last five years has shown me that
my doctor's food plan is on the mark. Carbs with no protein or fat tend to
make me crash later, thus the problems with hard candies or gummy bears.
I've had some success with trail mix, granola bars or power bars that have
some protein. The problem is that it isn't consistent. Some days these
things work beautifully, and I'm able to perform at an expected level based
on my shorter races. Other days, like today, I crash and burn.

I'm not too worried about having "a serious problem" as you put it during
the marathon itself. I do thank you for your concern. I'm experienced
enough to know how far I can push myself. There's no danger of a diabetic
coma or anything like that. The worst that could happen is I run out of
gas, feel exhausted and have to slow way down. If it gets very bad I will
drink some Gatorade or chew a glucose tablet, but that has never happened.
I carry the tablets at my doctor's suggestion.

Quoted message said:

Have you tried a maltodextrin based drink such as Succeed! or Cytomax? The
standard marathon drink such as Gatorade can give you a sudden blast then
later send you into the doldrums. I personally didn't have a problem with
it, since after finding out what they served in the marathon I trained

with

Quoted message said:

the same drink. But given a choice, I would prefer Cytomax becuase it is
slower burning. Since NYCM is only 3 weeks away, you don't have a whole

lot

Quoted message said:

of time to experiment.

I have not tried either of these drinks. Do they contain any protein at
all? Which one would you suggest that I try on this last twenty miler?
You're right. There's not much time left. Thanks for the suggestion.
Michelle

Mrsg wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

.........
I do have a blood sugar problem that sometimes makes the longer races
tougher for me. I've done a lot of experimenting with food and drink

during

Quoted message said:

training and races, but still have not found just the right combination.
Today I ran a half marathon in 2:03. I had been running at a sub nine
minute pace through the first ten miles and then had a blood sugar crash.
The last three miles were tough to finish.

What foods/drinks did you experiment with and what were the results? It
also might be helpful if you gave a little history of your blood-sugar
problem. Do you know the cause? This would seem to be the critical factor
in your marathon because if you had a setback at 10 miles in a HM, you could
have a serious problem during the marathon.

- Tony

Leafing through rec.running, I read Mrsg's message of 16 Oct 2004:

Quoted message said:

Sugary drinks or candies help during runs, but I stopped using those
as they cause me to have a severe crash later. I nearly passed out at
church one day after a long run during which I kept going on hard
candy. Today I used trail mix which will sometimes work. I 'm almost
thinking that I didn't eat enough calories in the last two days before
the race. I don't know.

Have you tried a maltodextrin based drink such as Succeed! or Cytomax? The
standard marathon drink such as Gatorade can give you a sudden blast then
later send you into the doldrums. I personally didn't have a problem with
it, since after finding out what they served in the marathon I trained with
the same drink. But given a choice, I would prefer Cytomax becuase it is
slower burning. Since NYCM is only 3 weeks away, you don't have a whole lot
of time to experiment.

Phil M.

--
"What counts in battle is what you do once the pain sets in." -John Short,
South African coach.

Quoted message said:

If you need protein with your drink, then you could try Accelerade. It
has 5 grams of pretien per 12 oz serving and it is also a maltodextrin
based drink.

Accelerade - http://www.accelerade.com
Cytomax - http://www.cytosport.com
Succeed! - http://www.ultrafit-endurance.com

Thanks, Phil. The website shows that I can purchase the Accelarade at
several locations near me. I'll try it.
Michelle

Leafing through rec.running, I read Mrsg's message of 16 Oct 2004:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have you tried a maltodextrin based drink such as Succeed! or
Cytomax? The standard marathon drink such as Gatorade can give you a
sudden blast then later send you into the doldrums. I personally
didn't have a problem with it, since after finding out what they
served in the marathon I trained

with

Quoted message said:

the same drink. But given a choice, I would prefer Cytomax becuase it
is slower burning. Since NYCM is only 3 weeks away, you don't have a
whole lot of time to experiment.

I have not tried either of these drinks. Do they contain any protein
at all? Which one would you suggest that I try on this last twenty
miler? You're right. There's not much time left. Thanks for the
suggestion. Michelle

If you need protein with your drink, then you could try Accelerade. It
has 5 grams of pretien per 12 oz serving and it is also a maltodextrin
based drink.

Accelerade - http://www.accelerade.com
Cytomax - http://www.cytosport.com
Succeed! - http://www.ultrafit-endurance.com

Phil M.

--
"What counts in battle is what you do once the pain sets in." -John
Short, South African coach.

Mrsg said:

Quoted message said:

What foods/drinks did you experiment with and what were the results? It
also might be helpful if you gave a little history of your blood-sugar
problem. Do you know the cause? This would seem to be the critical
factor
in your marathon because if you had a setback at 10 miles in a HM, you
could
have a serious problem during the marathon.

- Tony

I have what my endocrinologist is calling a pre-diabetic condition. It
causes me to have episodes of low blood sugar even during normal daily
activities if I don't follow a food plan that his dietician designed. The
plan involves eating small meals every three hours throughout the day. The
meals must contain protein and/or fat along with carbohydrate. This works
well for me, and the doctor is pleased. He feels that without my adherance
to the diet along with my running I would be into full blown diabetes by
now. I did have gestational diabetes with both of my pregnancies when I was
younger.

The food experimenting I have done in the last five years has shown me that
my doctor's food plan is on the mark. Carbs with no protein or fat tend to
make me crash later, thus the problems with hard candies or gummy bears.
I've had some success with trail mix, granola bars or power bars that have
some protein. The problem is that it isn't consistent. Some days these
things work beautifully, and I'm able to perform at an expected level based
on my shorter races. Other days, like today, I crash and burn.

Two articles on diabetics who ran marathons that may be of interest:

http://www.radix.net/~bobg/run/diabetes.html
http://www.nfb.org/vod/vow0012.htm

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Phil M. said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read Mrsg's message of 16 Oct 2004:

Quoted message said:

Sugary drinks or candies help during runs, but I stopped using those
as they cause me to have a severe crash later. I nearly passed out at
church one day after a long run during which I kept going on hard
candy. Today I used trail mix which will sometimes work. I 'm almost
thinking that I didn't eat enough calories in the last two days before
the race. I don't know.

Have you tried a maltodextrin based drink such as Succeed! or Cytomax? The

Maltodextrin has a high glycemic index. There's little reason to believe that
it should be any different to gatorade.

Quoted message said:

the same drink. But given a choice, I would prefer Cytomax becuase it is
slower burning.

Is there *any* hard evidence to support this claim, apart from the erroneous
belief that maltodextrin is "slow burning" ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Leafing through rec.running, I read Donovan Rebbechi's message of 16 Oct
2004:

Quoted message said:

Phil M. said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read Mrsg's message of 16 Oct 2004:

Quoted message said:

Sugary drinks or candies help during runs, but I stopped using those
as they cause me to have a severe crash later. I nearly passed out
at church one day after a long run during which I kept going on hard
candy. Today I used trail mix which will sometimes work. I 'm
almost thinking that I didn't eat enough calories in the last two
days before the race. I don't know.

Have you tried a maltodextrin based drink such as Succeed! or
Cytomax? The

Maltodextrin has a high glycemic index. There's little reason to
believe that it should be any different to gatorade.

Quoted message said:

the same drink. But given a choice, I would prefer Cytomax becuase it
is slower burning.

Is there *any* hard evidence to support this claim, apart from the
erroneous belief that maltodextrin is "slow burning" ?

None. It just works for me. I thought it was worth a try though.

Phil M.

--
"What counts in battle is what you do once the pain sets in." -John
Short, South African coach.

Leafing through rec.running, I read Mrsg's message of 16 Oct 2004:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you need protein with your drink, then you could try Accelerade. It
has 5 grams of pretien per 12 oz serving and it is also a maltodextrin
based drink.

Accelerade - http://www.accelerade.com
Cytomax - http://www.cytosport.com
Succeed! - http://www.ultrafit-endurance.com

Thanks, Phil. The website shows that I can purchase the Accelarade at
several locations near me. I'll try it.

Do you plan on using your own drink for the marathon? If so, how are you
packing it? Have you carried this much fluid before in a training run?

Phil M.

--
"What counts in battle is what you do once the pain sets in." -John Short,
South African coach.

Mrsg wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

What foods/drinks did you experiment with and what were the results? It

Quoted message said:

also might be helpful if you gave a little history of your blood-sugar
problem. Do you know the cause? This would seem to be the critical

factor

Quoted message said:

in your marathon because if you had a setback at 10 miles in a HM, you

could

Quoted message said:

have a serious problem during the marathon.

- Tony

I have what my endocrinologist is calling a pre-diabetic condition. It
causes me to have episodes of low blood sugar even during normal daily
activities if I don't follow a food plan that his dietician designed. The
plan involves eating small meals every three hours throughout the day. The
meals must contain protein and/or fat along with carbohydrate. This works
well for me, and the doctor is pleased. He feels that without my adherance
to the diet along with my running I would be into full blown diabetes by
now. I did have gestational diabetes with both of my pregnancies when I

was

Quoted message said:

younger.

The food experimenting I have done in the last five years has shown me that
my doctor's food plan is on the mark. Carbs with no protein or fat tend to
make me crash later, thus the problems with hard candies or gummy bears.
I've had some success with trail mix, granola bars or power bars that have
some protein. The problem is that it isn't consistent. Some days these
things work beautifully, and I'm able to perform at an expected level based
on my shorter races. Other days, like today, I crash and burn.

I'm not too worried about having "a serious problem" as you put it during
the marathon itself. I do thank you for your concern. I'm experienced
enough to know how far I can push myself. There's no danger of a diabetic
coma or anything like that. The worst that could happen is I run out of
gas, feel exhausted and have to slow way down. If it gets very bad I will
drink some Gatorade or chew a glucose tablet, but that has never happened.
I carry the tablets at my doctor's suggestion.

Well what I really meant was crashing after 10 miles or so and ruining your
marathon, though you've run them before so I understand you know how to
handle it. I would second what Phil said about accelerade. I don't know
about maltodextrin being slow-burning or not but at least you'd get some
protien. Note that you can get Accel Gels too, which have the same 4:1
carb:protein ratio. It might be more practical to take Gels with you during
the race than your own liquid, unless you wear a camelback or something.
With Gels you just need plain water. You could also use balance bars to get
the protein and fat that's worked for you before.

-Tony

Phil M. said:

If you need protein with your drink, then you could try Accelerade. It
has 5 grams of pretien per 12 oz serving and it is also a maltodextrin
based drink.

Accelerade - http://www.accelerade.com
Cytomax - http://www.cytosport.com
Succeed! - http://www.ultrafit-endurance.com

More specifically Clip 2 and Amino on the Succeed page have amino acids.
Clip 2 doesn't have electrolytes though (use their caps)

Michelle, you might also want to google for some of Rob Carr's postings
He hasn't posted here in a couple years, but he posted frequently on
some of these issues with sugar. (if you put "diabetes" or "sugar" in
the search, you'll avoid his sci fi posts)

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Mrsg said:

I have what my endocrinologist is calling a pre-diabetic condition. It
causes me to have episodes of low blood sugar even during normal daily
activities if I don't follow a food plan that his dietician designed. The

I didn't see this post before I posted on another one. Yes, definitely
read some of Rob Carr's posts. Donovan included a link to one of them,
but I think Rob was also working on an FAQ. Here's some of the links,
although may not be the most relevant for you.

http://tinyurl.com/4mhzl
http://tinyurl.com/5tlha

This is his Pittsburgh marathon with comments about food, which may be
more relevant. He made a ton of other posts with some knowledgeable
comments - both scientific (he's trained in biochemistry, I think) and
his experiment of one.

http://tinyurl.com/43rnp

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Phil M. said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read Donovan Rebbechi's message of 16 Oct
2004:

Quoted message said:

Phil M. said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read Mrsg's message of 16 Oct 2004:

> Sugary drinks or candies help during runs, but I stopped using those
> as they cause me to have a severe crash later. I nearly passed out
> at church one day after a long run during which I kept going on hard
> candy. Today I used trail mix which will sometimes work. I 'm
> almost thinking that I didn't eat enough calories in the last two
> days before the race. I don't know.

Have you tried a maltodextrin based drink such as Succeed! or
Cytomax? The

Maltodextrin has a high glycemic index. There's little reason to
believe that it should be any different to gatorade.

Quoted message said:

the same drink. But given a choice, I would prefer Cytomax becuase it
is slower burning.

Is there *any* hard evidence to support this claim, apart from the
erroneous belief that maltodextrin is "slow burning" ?

None. It just works for me. I thought it was worth a try though.

Hmmm ... I just took a look at Noakes, and there's more anecdotal evidence
in favor of glucose polymers (maltodextrin) over a cheapo sucrose product.
FWIW.

The Noakes book has a few pages on diabetes and running, as well as carb
ingestion during and after exercise.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Mrsg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have what my endocrinologist is calling a pre-diabetic condition.
It
causes me to have episodes of low blood sugar even during normal daily
activities if I don't follow a food plan that his dietician designed.
The
plan involves eating small meals every three hours throughout the day.
The
meals must contain protein and/or fat along with carbohydrate. This
works
well for me, and the doctor is pleased. He feels that without my
adherance
to the diet along with my running I would be into full blown diabetes
by
now. I did have gestational diabetes with both of my pregnancies when
I was
younger.

The food experimenting I have done in the last five years has shown me
that
my doctor's food plan is on the mark. Carbs with no protein or fat
tend to
make me crash later, thus the problems with hard candies or gummy
bears.
I've had some success with trail mix, granola bars or power bars that
have
some protein. The problem is that it isn't consistent. Some days
these
things work beautifully, and I'm able to perform at an expected level
based
on my shorter races. Other days, like today, I crash and burn.

I'm not too worried about having "a serious problem" as you put it
during
the marathon itself. I do thank you for your concern. I'm
experienced
enough to know how far I can push myself. There's no danger of a
diabetic
coma or anything like that. The worst that could happen is I run out
of
gas, feel exhausted and have to slow way down. If it gets very bad I
will
drink some Gatorade or chew a glucose tablet, but that has never
happened.
I carry the tablets at my doctor's suggestion.

You and your doctor take a look at SUCCEED!CLIP
http://store.yahoo.com/ultrafit/succlipspor.html

from the web page:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

SUCCEED! CLIP sports drink is intended for use in lengthy training
runs or racing events such as ultramarathons which last more than 6
hours. It contains easily digested carbohydrate for muscle fuel,
Branched Chain Amino Acids and protein to preserve the athlete's
muscle, and Medium Chain Triglyceride to provide energy from fat, and
stabilize the digestive tract.>>

It's has a maltodextrin base so you will be getting slow burning carbs
not fructose to cause spikes. Don't worry about the 6 hour statement
it's merely to help those that run long races to keep from getting
caldron stomach. In essence it is a liquid food.

-DF

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have you tried a maltodextrin based drink such as Succeed! or
Cytomax? The

Maltodextrin has a high glycemic index. There's little reason to
believe that
it should be any different to Gatorade.

I asked the Karl King(creator) this question when someone else posed the
same pessimism. There are different maltodextrins and he uses a slow
burning variety. And no, he is not saying this to sell his product. He
created SUCCEED primarily for himself for ultra races because of the
Gatorade type [censored] on the market at the time. Soon everyone on the ultra
circuit wanted some and it grew a life of it's own.

-DF

ny is a tougher course than most for the professionals and weekend warriors and
everyone in between...... the predictor models don't factor this reality into
the equation. if your reference points are also based on tough courses....well
then OK. however a flat course ref. point time plugged into a calculator is
going to have a have a higher degree of error translating to new york or boston
(tougher courses)....as opposed to chicago or houston (courses that are less
demanding). take that fwiw.

read the replies and you do not need to carry liquid on your person. there
will be plenty of of water and gatorade stations on the route and from what i
understand they're well maintained for all 35,000 runners thanks to the
thousands of volunteers.

what you need to do now is devise your personal supplement strategy that you
employ just before hitting a water station. the water station is just going to
serve in washing down the supplement & hydration.
so you "gel" or "cap" just before the station, knock down the gel/cap from the
cup of water or gatorade that you [censored] at the station. simple enough.

just pray for and ideal day weather-wise and i am sure all things will go
according to planned for you. wind and rain = revert to plan B! (just make it
through the course).

Good luck Michelle...I'm sure you'll do well...looks like you've done
everything right (as opposed to me...hee hee)...I just kind of "show up" and do
the race.