reached my genetic limit????

ptooey said:

I'm no expert but:
How did you determine you stagnated?
Since you've stagnated have you attempted to change things up?
What's your coaches prescription or are you self coached?
What's your prior athletic background?
How are you measuring power? On a mtb ride or road bike ride?
Have you actually tried racing on the road or are you using the rough profile guidelines as your only measuring stick?
Are you using cyclingpeaks or some other software that can describe your training load?

Several people on the topica wattage list report improvements they didn't think possible after reaching age 50...

Thanks Woofer! Here are some answers to your ?s

Woofer said:

I'm no expert but:
How did you determine you stagnated?
My #s did not go up in '05 and are seeming low now

Since you've stagnated have you attempted to change things up?
Not really - Ive thought about the changes I mentioned above

What's your coaches prescription or are you self coached?
was coached for 3 yrs but cannot afford it at this time

What's your prior athletic background?
was active before starting racing 7 yrs ago but not a racer

How are you measuring power? On a mtb ride or road bike ride?
Power measured w/ PowerTap on road bike only

Have you actually tried racing on the road or are you using the rough profile guidelines as your only measuring stick?
I am using the profile but I have tried a few races. I am an extremely STEADY rider that has trouble with bursts and usually get dropped early on in an open women's race only to catch some people 2hrs later

Are you using cyclingpeaks or some other software that can describe your training load?
No

Several people on the topica wattage list report improvements they didn't think possible after reaching age 50...
That is encouraging!!!!

ptooey said:

Thanks Woofer! Here are some answers to your ?s

I noticed in the other thread you have suffered a recent injury. I am not an expert in this and you are about to see the supposed best cycling ortho in the country, but perhaps this injury could be retarding your fitness gains. I suffered a back injury with similar symptoms which may or may not have anything to do with what you have and had to stop riding hard for six months before it got better. I haven't had any major symptoms in twelve years.

re: 5 minute power as strength and doing mtb racing

http://lists.topica.com/lists/wattage/read/message.html?mid=910916899

http://lists.topica.com/lists/wattage/read/message.html?mid=910911349

http://lists.topica.com/lists/wattage/read/message.html?mid=907190865

I really like the topica wattage list. 🙂

Without seeing the data and knowing your numbers, it seems odd that 5 minute power is your strength and you are getting dropped in road races, unless you are on the rivet for a long time and the surge is the final straw, ie, your ftp weakness relative to the competition is the primary cause

re: really long races
Have you considered or are you already doing marathon xc?

re: plateau
Are you sure you are not overtrained?

There's the theory that one should alternate hard and easy days as I think you are currently doing to allow one to recover and adapt to training, and another method that works for some people where they do multiple hard days in a row (not everyone but once you are healthy and still feeling plateaued it's might be worth a shot if you've never tried it.)
http://lists.topica.com/lists/wattage/read/message.html?mid=908793167

13-17 hours a week may be enough and perhaps a manipulation of the intensity of some of those hours should be adjusted but it's hard to know without knowing the numbers of what you are doing exactly. This is the part where having a coach is handy instead of someone with too much time on his hands. 🙂 If you can't afford coaching for a while, Cyclingpeaks software is not too expensive and could be a good tool in taking a first step in identifying what training load worked for you in the past and if there was something different this year or not.

Some of the responses I picked are by people who coach mtb pros so they could be potential candidates for you if your financial situation changes.

If you are coaching yourself and using a PowerTap, you should be very familiar with the material here:
http://www.midweekclub.ca/articles/

ptooey said:

Hello,
I am a 39yo female, racing for 7yrs, made it to a not quite mid pack pro MTBer. Progress appears to have stagnated. I have a fairly muscular upper body (for a girl) am 5'10", 140lb, FT is ~210W, best 5min int is ~290W. According to Andy Coggan's power profile chart that makes me an average Cat 3 racer for FT and an average Cat 2 racer for 5min power. In order to make it to an average Cat 2/Cat 1 racer, I would have to raise my FT to 246W and my 5min power to 326W or about 10% each. What are my actual chances of achieving this after 7yrs of racing? Am I destined to be only a Cat 3 level racer? I train about 13-17hrs per week and work full time. Besides my core workouts (2 x 20s or 5 x 5s) and a rest day or two, I do one group ride, 1 LSD day and some 1.5-2hr Z2 rides as filler. Should I cut out the Z2 rides and maybe the LSD ride in order to rest more and really focus on my key workouts?

Another related question: In MTB races, I tend to do best in really long 4hr+ races, tho my 5min power seems to be better than my FT power. This doesn't seem to make sense.

Thanks in advance for any advice!!!!

I know of hardly anyone who can't improve. I've seen older males (e.g. >50 y o) improve significantly with changes in training (i.e., those who already race) and i've seen people new to the sport at >50 y o improve significantly.

13 to 17 hours/week seems quite a substantial amount of training time, and is about the same volume of a female MTB pro that i coach.

To make a point that AC has made about the power tables, those figures (e.g., a 10% increase) do *not* guarantee that you will be a cat 2 or cat 1 (etc) cyclist.

Why you might be stagnating, could be a multi-faceted issue (e.g., rest, diet, incorrect training loads). Coaching should be able to help you improve and find out what the issues (if any) are. Whilst, i understand you cannot currently afford coaching, we (RST) offer inexpensive coaching (Team Coaching) which maybe a viable option. Note, if you have a group (team, club, friends, whatever) who join together the price is vastly reduced for 5 or more riders (upto 25 riders where the equivalent price can be as low as US$27/mth/rider).

Ric

Thanks Woofer,
Yeah, in the back of my mind I worry if my injury might be having an effect - the one PT said that he thought my R leg was weaker than my left and was being inhibited by tension in my pelvis. Appt with AP is not til the end of the month, tho - arghhhh. Glad to hear that you eventually recovered but the thought of 6 months off is pretty scary - Id go crazy. I also worry that due to trying to lose a few lbs, Im not eating enuf carbs. Now that I am doing more intensity, I prob should lay off the dieting!

I have learned a lot from the Topica wattage forum, too - thanks for the links. I actually am considering doing longer MTB races this yr and have just this past week (a little late, I guess) started a "program" similar to what Dave Harris does. I am training L5 (my weakness as an endurance racer) first then planning to move into L4 (my strenght as an endurance racer) later. Dave works up to a block consisting of:
day 1: 3 sets of 4min on @ 1.2*FT/ 2.5min off with 10 min btwn sets
day 2: 2 x 5 of 2min on @ 1.35*FT/1:45 off with 10 min btwn sets

For my 1st week I reduced day 1 to 2 sets of 3min. Pavg was 266 for the 1st set and 263 for the 2nd set. In previous years Ive been able to avg 290W for one set of 5 3min ints BUT I took 5min rests so not sure if that is apples and oranges. Day 2 Pavg was 288 for 1st set and only 280 for the 2nd set. In the past Ive held 315-320 for 10 by 2min w/ 4min rests. Prior to this I had been pretty unorganised in my training (just piling on the miles) but had just started 2x20s once per week @ 215-220 W.

The rest of this week will either be an easy spin or off the bike , a fast group ride on Sat, Z3 skate skiing on Sun for a few hrs.

I haven't researced the cycling peaks software too much - if I wrote my own program to calculate TSS, would it give me all that much above the PTap software?

Thanks again for your help! Whoa - I just looked at the time you posted - you do have too much time on your hands 😉

ptooey said:

I haven't researched the cycling peaks software too much - if I wrote my own program to calculate TSS, would it give me all that much above the PTap software?

Depends how much your time is worth to you. I'm a professional software engineer, and CyclingPeaks offers much, much more than $75 worth of value to me. It's more than just TSS. Your mileage may vary.

Thanks Ric,
It is good to hear that there is hope. I had heard something about a 7yr time period of improvement and thought I may be nearing the end of that!

I do race pro MTB but also have a fulltime job so I am hoping that by focusing on key, intense workouts separated by complete rest, I could lose some of the "fluff" hrs.

I do realize that the tables are for reference only but I have little RR exp to go on. Like I said above, I ride a very steady pace and don't do well w/ surges, even on group rides - I need to work on that.

I am currently on a team so maybe could round up a few team members to go in on a coaching deal. Problem is one guy is trying to start a coaching business but I do not believe he is very up to date on the latest info.

ric_stern/RST said:

I know of hardly anyone who can't improve. I've seen older males (e.g. >50 y o) improve significantly with changes in training (i.e., those who already race) and i've seen people new to the sport at >50 y o improve significantly.

13 to 17 hours/week seems quite a substantial amount of training time, and is about the same volume of a female MTB pro that i coach.

To make a point that AC has made about the power tables, those figures (e.g., a 10% increase) do *not* guarantee that you will be a cat 2 or cat 1 (etc) cyclist.

Why you might be stagnating, could be a multi-faceted issue (e.g., rest, diet, incorrect training loads). Coaching should be able to help you improve and find out what the issues (if any) are. Whilst, i understand you cannot currently afford coaching, we (RST) offer inexpensive coaching (Team Coaching) which maybe a viable option. Note, if you have a group (team, club, friends, whatever) who join together the price is vastly reduced for 5 or more riders (upto 25 riders where the equivalent price can be as low as US$27/mth/rider).

Ric

ptooey said:

Thanks Woofer,
Yeah, in the back of my mind I worry if my injury might be having an effect - the one PT said that he thought my R leg was weaker than my left and was being inhibited by tension in my pelvis. Appt with AP is not til the end of the month, tho - arghhhh. Glad to hear that you eventually recovered but the thought of 6 months off is pretty scary - Id go crazy. I also worry that due to trying to lose a few lbs, Im not eating enuf carbs. Now that I am doing more intensity, I prob should lay off the dieting!

I have learned a lot from the Topica wattage forum, too - thanks for the links. I actually am considering doing longer MTB races this yr and have just this past week (a little late, I guess) started a "program" similar to what Dave Harris does. I am training L5 (my weakness as an endurance racer) first then planning to move into L4 (my strenght as an endurance racer) later. Dave works up to a block consisting of:
day 1: 3 sets of 4min on @ 1.2*FT/ 2.5min off with 10 min btwn sets
day 2: 2 x 5 of 2min on @ 1.35*FT/1:45 off with 10 min btwn sets

For my 1st week I reduced day 1 to 2 sets of 3min. Pavg was 266 for the 1st set and 263 for the 2nd set. In previous years Ive been able to avg 290W for one set of 5 3min ints BUT I took 5min rests so not sure if that is apples and oranges. Day 2 Pavg was 288 for 1st set and only 280 for the 2nd set. In the past Ive held 315-320 for 10 by 2min w/ 4min rests. Prior to this I had been pretty unorganised in my training (just piling on the miles) but had just started 2x20s once per week @ 215-220 W.

The rest of this week will either be an easy spin or off the bike , a fast group ride on Sat, Z3 skate skiing on Sun for a few hrs.

I haven't researced the cycling peaks software too much - if I wrote my own program to calculate TSS, would it give me all that much above the PTap software?

Thanks again for your help! Whoa - I just looked at the time you posted - you do have too much time on your hands 😉

As with all free advice on the internet, reader beware. 🙂
Having said that, I should mention that the back injury lead me to underuse the weak leg and really working the strong leg, leading to a knee injury - on the weak leg because the thigh muscle that stabilizes it was really weak. I have no idea of the validity of this test but the PT had me stand on two scales until I thought I had equal weight on each leg and revealed I had 100 pounds on one leg and 50 on the other.

I am also not qualified to talk about the change in the micro structure of your workouts - the best I can come up with is your apples to oranges and make sure you are working on a specific duration with appropriate rest for that duration. Usually going into a shorter interval without sufficient rest isn't the same but I don't know what your goals for those intervals with shorter rest is or if that was sufficient rest.

If surges on group rides are giving you trouble, even before the injury there are lots of possibilities. Off the top of my head - you are in too big a gear and really should try using a smaller gear to accelerate - which as I like to stomp is a hard habit to break, work your way up to the current group with a slightly slower group, unlikely but are you sure your bike is mechanically sound, drop the group rides for now as that really can't be helping your ego and it's possibly better for you to work more on other things with limited hours, etc.

I have written a little program to do the TSS calculation and it's a chore to maintain my TSS values, still need to do more work on it. I have too many computers to buy just one copy of Cyclingpeaks so have held off for now. I might buy it when the training manager comes with it.

With training, you can just pile on the miles and get better for a long time with cycling, but it's more efficient to have a bit of structure and goals with a bit of time for just piling on the miles. That really depends on what a rider likes and what the goals are.

I am lucky to ride twelve hours a week and drop most of the easy stuff - there is not a lot of training adaption to going easy except getting your butt used to being in the saddle. I know a cat 1 male who claims to train only ten hours a week and race every weekend in season. I also know some cat 3's who regularly train 20+ hours a week and last week put in 40+. There are a lot of variables that one has to take into account.

Woofer said:

I have written a little program to do the TSS calculation and it's a chore to maintain my TSS values, still need to do more work on it. I have too many computers to buy just one copy of Cyclingpeaks so have held off for now. I might buy it when the training manager comes with it.

Biker_Lindz and Andy Coggan wrote an article for UK cycling magazine Cycling Weekly last year about training with power. One of the concepts they mentioned was normalized power and TSS etc. As Lindsay is an RST Coach, and so that readers of CW could understand the concept of NP, TSS, etc., the cyclecoach.com website has a download available here http://cyclecoach.com/pageID-downloadPages-Normalised_Power_TSS_IF.htm which automatically calculates NP, TSS, etc from raw Power Tap files. Feel free to download it.

Ric

Thanks Ric,
Sweet program! Now I will have to read up on how to use TSS and IF to help me with my training. Should be fun - but I am supposed to be working :o

I already have a ?, however: When one specifies their FT, is this Pavg right off the PTap or Normalized power from the spreadsheet? Thanks.

ric_stern/RST said:

Biker_Lindz and Andy Coggan wrote an article for UK cycling magazine Cycling Weekly last year about training with power. One of the concepts they mentioned was normalized power and TSS etc. As Lindsay is an RST Coach, and so that readers of CW could understand the concept of NP, TSS, etc., the cyclecoach.com website has a download available here http://cyclecoach.com/pageID-downloadPages-Normalised_Power_TSS_IF.htm which automatically calculates NP, TSS, etc from raw Power Tap files. Feel free to download it.

Ric

Thanks for your continued generosity, Ric.

Woofer said:

Thanks for your continued generosity, Ric.

Please note, that the real thanks should go to Andy Coggan for developing the system, and James Huntington for developing the software. My role in this was very sparse.

Ric

ptooey said:

Thanks Ric,
It is good to hear that there is hope. I had heard something about a 7yr time period of improvement and thought I may be nearing the end of that!

i've been raced every year since '84, i continue to improve with better training techniques. Whether everyone will be dependent on many issues, which is likely beyond the scope of this forum.

Quoted post said:

I do realize that the tables are for reference only but I have little RR exp to go on. Like I said above, I ride a very steady pace and don't do well w/ surges, even on group rides - I need to work on that.

there's two issues here -- 1) can you generate enough power to go with the moves? and 2) the recovery of these surges isn't related to how much power you can generate over a short time, but your aerobic engine (i.e., lactate threshold and VO2max)

Quoted post said:

I am currently on a team so maybe could round up a few team members to go in on a coaching deal. Problem is one guy is trying to start a coaching business but I do not believe he is very up to date on the latest info.

needn't be from the same team. And why would anyone want poor info...!?

ric

ptooey said:

Thanks Ric,
Sweet program! Now I will have to read up on how to use TSS and IF to help me with my training. Should be fun - but I am supposed to be working :o

I already have a ?, however: When one specifies their FT, is this Pavg right off the PTap or Normalized power from the spreadsheet? Thanks.

The answer is contained within the articles written by AC (i think). However, it's unlikely to be either - directly from the PT could include other data (e.g., warm up or cool down) and this could also occur with this freebie programme - it doesn't display data for selected (i.e., TT efforts) periods of time.

It's therefore, likely that you'd need to search an actual raw CSV file for a TT effort, make a copy of the file, and delete the 'extra' data. Then use the programme to find out the average and NP data.

Depending on where you did your TT test (e.g., trainer, hilly roads) may alter whether you use mean power or NP.

Ric