Re: Zabel out for TdF

"Tom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And what have we learned from watching Postal dismantle teams at the
Tour in the past 6 years? One team, committed to one guy winning,
and that's the key. Zabel goes to the Tour he might pull some
resources to get the green jersey or win sprints, and they're not
there for that anymore, they're there to win the freakin' race. Zabel
hinders that effort if he's there.

T-Mobile doesn't "owe" him anything. He's a pro bike racer. He gets
paid very well to ride his bike for a team that has been very loyal to
him. They tell him where to race, and he does it. Zabel is a class
act. And always will be.

Tom

Well, I agree with you Tom, but I am "disappointed" that he was dropped.

Laz

I will say though, that Zabel is still very competitive, I mean hell,
he was one of the top ranked riders last year. Had what? About 16
2nd places in 2004?? I'd take a year like that.

Tom

Tom said:

And what have we learned from watching Postal dismantle teams at the
Tour in the past 6 years? One team, committed to one guy winning,
and that's the key. Zabel goes to the Tour he might pull some
resources to get the green jersey or win sprints,

Ignoramous -

Zabel has gotten *zero* guys assigned to help him at the Tour the past
few years. No resources at all.

The #8 TdF helper (that's who will be replacing Zabel) at T-Mobile
isn't going to be able make any sort of difference in the race between
Ullrich and Armstrong.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Tom said:

And what have we learned from watching Postal dismantle teams at the
Tour in the past 6 years? One team, committed to one guy winning,
and that's the key. Zabel goes to the Tour he might pull some
resources to get the green jersey or win sprints,

Ignoramous -

Zabel has gotten *zero* guys assigned to help him at the Tour the past
few years. No resources at all.

The #8 TdF helper (that's who will be replacing Zabel) at T-Mobile
isn't going to be able make any sort of difference in the race between
Ullrich and Armstrong.

dumbass,

the difference is in philosophy. discovery has one clear goal and they
aren't thinking, "lets win some stages, pick up a green jersey or the
team GC along the way".

bringing zabel along because he's a cool guy or whatever when his
presence isn't justified is sending a mixed message to your team.

plus the 8th helper might be the one that steps up, nobody saw kloden
as a potential GC presence last year.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Tom said:

And what have we learned from watching Postal dismantle teams at the
Tour in the past 6 years? One team, committed to one guy winning,
and that's the key. Zabel goes to the Tour he might pull some
resources to get the green jersey or win sprints,

Ignoramous -

Zabel has gotten *zero* guys assigned to help him at the Tour the past
few years. No resources at all.

The #8 TdF helper (that's who will be replacing Zabel) at T-Mobile
isn't going to be able make any sort of difference in the race between
Ullrich and Armstrong.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Bearing Brain,

I agree.

Maybe T-Mobile is trying to keep Kloden from throwing a tantrum.
Ullrich has typically wanted Zabel along.

jc

I couldn't agree more. Boy I can't wait either for the Boonen, Hushovd,
Mcqueen battle.

RVD

<[email hidden]> schreef >

Quoted message said:

bringing zabel along because he's a cool guy or whatever when his
presence isn't justified is sending a mixed message to your team.

He's also not a plus factor in the TTT.

Bart Van Hoorebeeck said:

He's also not a plus factor in the TTT.

You think? It seems to me he would be rather useful in the TTT. Any strong
classics rider should be good for a decent (T)TT.

Agreed. All Armstrong asks is 110% of his team's attention and effort,
and all he's done for the past 6 years is win it all.

Ullrich may finally find out if he can win on that model. From a "if
all you do is what you been doing, all you'll get is what you been
getting" standpoint, I don't have a problem with ditching Zabel in
order to get everyone absolutely on the same page. It likely increases
the pressure on Ullrich, if nothing else. Armstrong loves that [censored].
Will it work for Ullrich?

The question for T-Mobile is whether giving up the publicity Zabel gets
just for being Zabel and being around for the green jersey is worth the
possibility that Ullrich will increase the teams' exposure by
benefitting from an 8th guy.

What I would NOT do, is make it a question of deserts for Zabel, in
this case it's just not relevant. Feeling bad for him is fine, but I
think he'll survive.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Zabel has gotten *zero* guys assigned to help him at the Tour the past
few years. No resources at all.

I can't recall T-Mobile (or Telekom) doing anything that ressembles a
train for him in about five years or more. He rarely had even one guy give
him a lead-out for a sprint, even in the earliest days of his green jersey
run. Zabel's been pretty much a freelancer in the sprints for ages.

Quoted message said:

The #8 TdF helper (that's who will be replacing Zabel) at T-Mobile
isn't going to be able make any sort of difference in the race between
Ullrich and Armstrong.

Well, I guess you could consider that eighth guy a sort of insurance
guy, in case someone else has problems.

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Howard Kveck a écrit :

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Zabel has gotten *zero* guys assigned to help him at the Tour the past
few years. No resources at all.

I can't recall T-Mobile (or Telekom) doing anything that ressembles a
train for him in about five years or more. He rarely had even one guy give
him a lead-out for a sprint, even in the earliest days of his green jersey
run. Zabel's been pretty much a freelancer in the sprints for ages.

However, I recall the 1997 tour where he had
a leadout in the last 2K's from Ullrich then Riis, the day before the
first big mountain stage. Those were the days!

-ilan

[email hidden] wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Howard Kveck a écrit :

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Zabel has gotten *zero* guys assigned to help him at the Tour the
past few years. No resources at all.

I can't recall T-Mobile (or Telekom) doing anything that ressembles
a
train for him in about five years or more. He rarely had even one guy
give him a lead-out for a sprint, even in the earliest days of his
green jersey run. Zabel's been pretty much a freelancer in the sprints
for ages.

However, I recall the 1997 tour where he had
a leadout in the last 2K's from Ullrich then Riis, the day before the
first big mountain stage. Those were the days!

-ilan

I agree.

What people don't realize is that going after the green jersey and the
yellow are not mutually exclusive goals. Going after the green in the
last few kms of a flat stage can help keep your GC guy near the front (as
part of the lead out train) and keep him out of trouble and/or from losing
time.

I realize this isn't *as* big of a deal as it was before they (the UCI)
extended the same-time-zone from 1 to 2 kms, but its still not a bad
strategy for avoiding pitfalls.

Besides, IIRC Zabel isn't a half-bad TTTer and can be there in at least
the first few mountain passes on moutaineous (sp?) stages. He's *never*
been time cut, always finished what he started.

As far as him taking away the spot of another climber... like its going to
matter. Unless T-Mobile intends on rivaling the LA leadout train up the
last mountain, its not going to make much difference. It will still end
up a mano-a-mano battle between JU and LA. Although, to be fair, if JU
had 1 extra helper, he might be just that much fresher before the battle
begins.

- Boyd "wants to see Zabel in one last TDF" S.

Hunter said:

What I would NOT do, is make it a question of deserts for Zabel, in
this case it's just not relevant. Feeling bad for him is fine, but I
think he'll survive.

Did you mean this:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos.php?id=photos/2005/jan05/qatar/stage4/cycling-qatar_tour-postc-17

Or this:
http://rhein-zeitung.de/on/00/07/07/sport/news/zabel-torte_.jpg

Bob Schwartz
[email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Howard Kveck a écrit :

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Zabel has gotten *zero* guys assigned to help him at the Tour the past
few years. No resources at all.

I can't recall T-Mobile (or Telekom) doing anything that ressembles a
train for him in about five years or more. He rarely had even one guy give
him a lead-out for a sprint, even in the earliest days of his green jersey
run. Zabel's been pretty much a freelancer in the sprints for ages.

However, I recall the 1997 tour where he had
a leadout in the last 2K's from Ullrich then Riis, the day before the
first big mountain stage. Those were the days!

Thanks for the reminder. That was quite surprising when it happened.

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Ewoud Dronkert schreef:

Quoted message said:

Bart Van Hoorebeeck said:

He's also not a plus factor in the TTT.

You think? It seems to me he would be rather useful in the TTT. Any strong
classics rider should be good for a decent (T)TT.

I remember interviews from previous years that suggested there were frictions
over that, Zabel defending himself "I suffer more in that stage than anyone
else."
But I would also expect a pure climber to more ballast.

I think what I admired most was his ability to do the tour, in style, like
most sprinters pack up after the 1st week, in the mountains cause the
climbing kills their sprint; and Zabel, unheralded amidst all the Jan hype
stays on after Jan packs gets the green and keeps it- saving face for
telekom. Further, he is a clean sprinter. A class act, as you say.

Laz

"Tom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I will say though, that Zabel is still very competitive, I mean hell,
he was one of the top ranked riders last year. Had what? About 16
2nd places in 2004?? I'd take a year like that.

Tom

Less well known is that after the stage, the team bus had a mechanical,
and Ullrich and Riis towed it back to the hotel, which also helped them
get used to the power position on their Espada II bikes. Nothing will
bring back those golden days.

-ilan

[email hidden] a écrit :

Quoted message said:

However, I recall the 1997 tour where he had
a leadout in the last 2K's from Ullrich then Riis, the day before the
first big mountain stage. Those were the days!

-ilan

Hunter said:

Agreed. All Armstrong asks is 110% of his team's attention and effort,
and all he's done for the past 6 years is win it all.

Ullrich may finally find out if he can win on that model. From a "if
all you do is what you been doing, all you'll get is what you been
getting" standpoint, I don't have a problem with ditching Zabel in
order to get everyone absolutely on the same page. It likely increases
the pressure on Ullrich, if nothing else. Armstrong loves that [censored].
Will it work for Ullrich?

I'm not sure given the presence of Vinokourov and Kloden that TMobile
even now fits the Postal model, though. It seems to me given half a
chance both of those guys are more likely to ride for themselves than
for Ullrich. Vinokourov has suggested as much in the press. It doesn't
look like Kloden will have the legs to cause too much trouble, but it
also doesn't seem like an all for Ullrich party there at T-Mobile, even
without Zabel.

Ha, excellent. I obv meant like:

"desert n. The state or fact of deserving reward or punishment."

Did you actually remember that there was a picture of him with a
dessert, or did you google it? Because if the former, you--you got a
mind for the trivia.