Re: Why Usenet is worthless!

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:44:18 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

Since you seem to know something about Usenet, you can tell me why it is
that the kooks from 'alt.usenet.kooks' never seem to have any "properties"
to their messages when you check it under "File". How are they able to
eliminate this information? Of course, they are criminal scumbags, but still
it is of interest to me to know how they do it.

Quoted message said:

But, you never answered my question: what is your opinion of the
bicycle clothing. Hey! Did you see that nude bike ride... where?...
I wanna say Seattle? I bet that was a hoot! Would you ride a bicycle
naked? I'd want at least a jockey strap to keep my balls from
bouncing on the seat. I think that would hurt.

You answer my question above and then MAYBE I will treat your query with the
contempt it deserves.

OK, Ed... quid pro quo is acceptable to me. That's how *I* deal with
a troll; I make them answer my question first, so turnabout is fair
play.

Let me start with "Network News Transfer Protocol" (NNTP) If you want
lots of geek information, then read the 1986 Request For Comment (RFC)
available at http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc977.txt ; be warned: it's long
and, IMO, boring, so I won't paste it... I did once and my account was
canceled!

The bottom line is that an NNTP packet simply has no properties other
than those in the header. As I said: it's archaic; your server simply
spews it forth and the next server does likewise. After a
predetermined number of such spewings, it's dead, Your reader
downloads the headers your server has... there is no guarantee that it
will reach all of the servers... it's the Internet equivalent of a
hand grenade tossed into a crowed room in the hope everyone will hear
about it.

You use giganews which has a web-based reader and, I assume, based on
your question, you're using that. A troll will always use a more
basic method of access. For example: I can buy bandwidth on a server
that allows injection from email, If I did this, then my IP would not
appear in the headers. (There is an option someplace to "show all
headers" or something like that. Look for it.)

Can you tell me, from my Usenet headers, the city from which I post?
In fact, you can! Locate the "NNTP-Posting-Host:" field and paste it
into: http://www.arin.net/whois/ then tell me where I am. I'll tell
you when you're warm. I have no fear of people... I could hide it,
but why? (Hint: I'm in Texas.)

And, so... I have tried to address your question honestly and
completely. Your answer is: because a raw NNTP message *has* no
properties beyond those you have readily available in the header
fields.

Quid pro Quo:

Would you wear "Spandex" or would you prefer to ride naked? (Assume
that a jockey strap is allowed.)

Jones

In article <[email hidden]>,
[quote="!Jones"]On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:34:51 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

Usenet will soon be as dead as a door nail. It has no redeeming features
whatsoever. It only existed for as long as it did because it was based on a
new technology that fascinated everyone.

Michael Press said:

Seven bit ascii? No mark up? No images? Disgusting!

But all ones realy needs to communicate the esscence of your point.

!Jones said:

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:44:18 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

Since you seem to know something about Usenet, you can tell me why it is
that the kooks from 'alt.usenet.kooks' never seem to have any "properties"
to their messages when you check it under "File". How are they able to
eliminate this information? Of course, they are criminal scumbags, but still
it is of interest to me to know how they do it.

Quoted message said:

But, you never answered my question: what is your opinion of the
bicycle clothing. Hey! Did you see that nude bike ride... where?...
I wanna say Seattle? I bet that was a hoot! Would you ride a bicycle
naked? I'd want at least a jockey strap to keep my balls from
bouncing on the seat. I think that would hurt.

You answer my question above and then MAYBE I will treat your query with the
contempt it deserves.

OK, Ed... quid pro quo is acceptable to me. That's how *I* deal with
a troll; I make them answer my question first, so turnabout is fair
play.

Let me start with "Network News Transfer Protocol" (NNTP) If you want
lots of geek information, then read the 1986 Request For Comment (RFC)
available at http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc977.txt ; be warned: it's long
and, IMO, boring, so I won't paste it... I did once and my account was
canceled!

The bottom line is that an NNTP packet simply has no properties other
than those in the header. As I said: it's archaic; your server simply
spews it forth and the next server does likewise. After a
predetermined number of such spewings, it's dead, Your reader
downloads the headers your server has... there is no guarantee that it
will reach all of the servers... it's the Internet equivalent of a
hand grenade tossed into a crowed room in the hope everyone will hear
about it.

You use giganews which has a web-based reader and, I assume, based on
your question, you're using that. A troll will always use a more
basic method of access. For example: I can buy bandwidth on a server
that allows injection from email, If I did this, then my IP would not
appear in the headers. (There is an option someplace to "show all
headers" or something like that. Look for it.)

Can you tell me, from my Usenet headers, the city from which I post?
In fact, you can! Locate the "NNTP-Posting-Host:" field and paste it
into: http://www.arin.net/whois/ then tell me where I am.

http://samspade.org/ is better.

I'll tell

Quoted message said:

you when you're warm. I have no fear of people... I could hide it,
but why? (Hint: I'm in Texas.)

And, so... I have tried to address your question honestly and
completely. Your answer is: because a raw NNTP message *has* no
properties beyond those you have readily available in the header
fields.

Quid pro Quo:

Would you wear "Spandex" or would you prefer to ride naked? (Assume
that a jockey strap is allowed.)

Jones

--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:20:27 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

I see that you are using Forte Agent for your newsreader and that your field
is NNTP-Posting-Host: 75.0.233.89. I am not going to look up these numbers
to see where you are from.

Well, I don't blame you... what difference does it make, anyway?

My point is that a Usenet posting is simply text, period. It hasn't
changed much since the mid-eighties and, back then, you got a mouse at
a pet store and properties were real estate. If you see any, then
someone's client is tacking them on. My reader is a relic and doesn't
see them.

But, yes, I am, in fact, a troll. I say, would you like to have an
argument?

Jones

In article <[email hidden]>,

!Jones said:

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:44:18 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

Since you seem to know something about Usenet, you can tell me why it is
that the kooks from 'alt.usenet.kooks' never seem to have any "properties"
to their messages when you check it under "File". How are they able to
eliminate this information? Of course, they are criminal scumbags, but still
it is of interest to me to know how they do it.

Quoted message said:

But, you never answered my question: what is your opinion of the
bicycle clothing. Hey! Did you see that nude bike ride... where?...
I wanna say Seattle? I bet that was a hoot! Would you ride a bicycle
naked? I'd want at least a jockey strap to keep my balls from
bouncing on the seat. I think that would hurt.

You answer my question above and then MAYBE I will treat your query with the
contempt it deserves.

OK, Ed... quid pro quo is acceptable to me. That's how *I* deal with
a troll; I make them answer my question first, so turnabout is fair
play.

Let me start with "Network News Transfer Protocol" (NNTP) If you want
lots of geek information, then read the 1986 Request For Comment (RFC)
available at http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc977.txt ; be warned: it's long
and, IMO, boring, so I won't paste it... I did once and my account was
canceled!

At least direct him to the current one.
RFC 977 is superseded by RFC 3977.
<http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3977.txt>

--
Michael Press

in rec.bicycles.tech Michael Press said:

At least direct him to the current one.
RFC 977 is superseded by RFC 3977.

The 977 - 86 was the bible for a long time. I haven't coded anything
moving on NNTP in half a decade. I'm aware that several changes have
been adopted. For example, under 977, one could add an attachment
(hey, look! a valentine!) ... or, at least, it wasn't explicitly
denied. This caused lots of confusion, as I recall, and it is well
that it's gone.

I'm sure there are other changes, but 977 was and still is the
seminal, primary source document. I always used to post that when I
wanted to make myself a PITA. That usually resulted in my account
being terminated with extreme prejudice; however, any troll worth his
or her beans had a hot standby.

Jones

In article <[email hidden]>,

!Jones said:

I'm sure there are other changes, but 977 was and still is the
seminal, primary source document.

I've read a couple of your posts and they're largely
horseshit. I imagine 977 has some historical interest for
somebody or other but if someone wanted to sit down and code
up a new implementation they certainly would not be starting
with a superceded document.

Quoted message said:

I always used to post that when I
wanted to make myself a PITA. That usually resulted in my account
being terminated with extreme prejudice;

I doubt that very much.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - [email hidden]

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:58:09 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

Only an idiot is interested in argument if there is no issue at stake.

I thought you said that you were "argumentative"... surely there are a
few issues lying about someplace.

Hey, I got an issue! I think we ought to breach *all* artificial
levees and make 'em illegal. If you want to build there, then fine,
but tax dollars shouldn't be used to hold back water and let the
insurance companies base their rates on the real risk, nay, certainty
of a flood.

The issue isn't *one* levee... one will work. When everybody up and
down river builds 'em, then the water has no place to go but up, so
now it floods places that didn't flood before the CoE started screwing
with it. And, when it *does* breach, it's catastrophic.

I heard that the oldest written commandment that has been interpreted
says don't come between a river and its flood plain... if that's not
true, then I didn't say it!

Jones

On 18 Jun 2008 08:37:00 -0400, in rec.bicycles.tech [email hidden]

(Melinda Shore) said:

I've read a couple of your posts and they're largely
horseshit.

Now, *that* hurts my feelings!

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:20:14 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

The argument has to be ABOUT something other than the ether.

Absolutely not! It's quite possible to have a perfectly good argument
over *nothing* at all. Anyone who would disagree with that is either
a fool, drunk, or a liar... or some combination of the above!

What an absurd statement!

Jones

!Jones said:

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:58:09 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

Only an idiot is interested in argument if there is no issue at stake.

I thought you said that you were "argumentative"... surely there are a
few issues lying about someplace.

Hey, I got an issue! I think we ought to breach *all* artificial
levees and make 'em illegal. If you want to build there, then fine,
but tax dollars shouldn't be used to hold back water and let the
insurance companies base their rates on the real risk, nay, certainty
of a flood.

Now THAT's actually a great idea! But why didn't you post it in the
proper newsgroups?

Quoted message said:

The issue isn't *one* levee... one will work. When everybody up and
down river builds 'em, then the water has no place to go but up, so
now it floods places that didn't flood before the CoE started screwing
with it. And, when it *does* breach, it's catastrophic.

I heard that the oldest written commandment that has been interpreted
says don't come between a river and its flood plain... if that's not
true, then I didn't say it!

Jones

--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:28:36 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

Quoted message said:

Absolutely not! It's quite possible to have a perfectly good argument
over *nothing* at all. Anyone who would disagree with that is either
a fool, drunk, or a liar... or some combination of the above!

What an absurd statement!

The only absurdity here is you. I suggest you get lost on some other
newsgroup. The kooks group (alt.usenet.kooks) should suit you.

See! We're arguing about nothing and you're losing.

Certainly you can argue about nothing... if you don't have a topic,
how could you possibly agree?

QED

Jones

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:49:04 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

"!Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:58:09 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

Only an idiot is interested in argument if there is no issue at stake.

I thought you said that you were "argumentative"... surely there are a
few issues lying about someplace.

The topic of this thread is an issue if you want one. See my original post.
I do not go looking for issues to argue about things that do not interest
the general readership of these newsgroups.
[...]

Quoted message said:

I heard that the oldest written commandment that has been interpreted
says don't come between a river and its flood plain... if that's not
true, then I didn't say it!

These newsgroups are about cycling, not about rivers, flood plains and
levees.

Well, it's not about how worthless Usenet is, either, is it Ed? You
opened this thread, I didn't. And, while we're at it, posts about how
someone is "off topic" are off topic except on alt.on-topic, "a
newsgroup dedicated to the discussion and resolution of the question:
'What exactly *IS* the topic of this newsgroup?'"

But... "worthless"? I wouldn't exactly hang on every word, mind you,
but it gives me a giggle every now and then. Of course, I don't take
any of it very seriously.

I think that's your problem... you take yourself too seriously. Do
you take drugs? I don't advocate it; however, they work for me!

Jones

in rec.bicycles.tech Mike Vandeman said:

Now THAT's actually a great idea! But why didn't you post it in the
proper newsgroups?

See, Ed... Mike likes my idea!

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:18:04 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

Quoted message said:

Well, it's not about how worthless Usenet is, either, is it Ed? You
opened this thread, I didn't. And, while we're at it, posts about how
someone is "off topic" are off topic except on alt.on-topic, "a
newsgroup dedicated to the discussion and resolution of the question:
'What exactly *IS* the topic of this newsgroup?'"

Go back and read the original post. That is what you need to comment on if
you want to be on topic.

Come on, Ed... I told you that I'm a troll. I freely admit it; in
fact; I'm proud of it! Now, with that in mind, please explain why I
would care one way or the other about being "on topic".

Actually, I'm an agent of alt,usenet,kooks (or a similar
organization); I was sent here to recruit you. Have you ever read
"Brave New World"?

The fact that you recognize that most of Usenet is mind-numbing tripe
means that you're really one of us... that, and the fact that you are
able to form a complete sentence.

You *will* be refuted!!! It's hopeless; join us! We represent the
last, best chance for humankind!

(Should I show him the secret handshake?)

Jones

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:31:51 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

Quoted message said:

Come on, Ed... I told you that I'm a troll. I freely admit it; in
fact; I'm proud of it! Now, with that in mind, please explain why I
would care one way or the other about being "on topic".

You have no subtlety as a troll. It is one thing to sidetrack a conversation
and it is quite another to just plunge in like an idiot. Get some subtlety
or get lost!

I'm as subtle as a heart attack. Trolls aren't subtle! Do you think
I'm an idiot? Hey... lots of folks herein do, you know. Would you
like to see the secret places trolls meet?

Well, you're talking to me, so, from that, I will assume you do... we
own Usenet, Ed. Surrender to the power!

Jones

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:01:14 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

You are not a criminal vandal troll and so you are OK by me. But you are
wasting your time posting to these cycling newsgroups. They are composed
mainly of 'Freds' and never have a clue about anything. Anyone with any
brains has long since left. I am sticking around to see just how low these
groups can sink. After that, I am going back to contemplating my navel,
something I should never have ceased doing in the first place.

The cycling groups are fetish groups... one finds an identical mindset
in all of them. You know, the participants believe that their topic
is important and, for some inexplicable reason, will flame anyone else
who thinks so. They're all the same. You may go to the rock climbers
or the jet skiers; there is simply no difference.

A troll group exists as a meta-newsgroup on a local server. Our group
does not propagate, so you must point your reader at that server. We
are, in fact, criminal vandals... we're the anarchists of Usenet.

Jones

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:14:57 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech "Edward

Dolan said:

Some jerk who reads these cycling newsgroups gave your group a post of mine,
thinking perhaps to shut me up. I will shut up when I get god damn good and
ready and not one minute before.

By the way, as long as you are responsive to what is being said, I do not
consider you a troll, criminal or otherwise.

Nobody (present company, anyway) is trying to shut you up. Have I
suggested any such thing?

I am aware that there are some who call themselves "trolls" who post
mindless nonsense, simply flooding the bandwidth. These people
usually have some political or philosophical agendum and their posts
are quite predictable. If I can predict the content, then I do not
need to read it, would you agree? But the troll worth his or her
beans must engage on a much deeper level.

Jones