General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Re: What does the latest "study" really tell us about eating fish?

Started by Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com · · Last activity · 7 posts · 422 views

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
13 October 2005
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14 October 2005
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Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com
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  1. montygram said:

    I read a report of this study in Newsday newspaper, page A5, 10/11/2005
    - that is the source of my information. Let's review it:

    1. It is from the good people at Rush, who would not even answer a
    basic question I put to them about a previous "study" of theirs
    that concluded that "saturated fat," but not "animal fat" was
    "associated" with Alzheimer's disease (AD) among a group of
    people who did not consume any appreciable amount of coconut oil or
    palm kernel oil. How is this possible? They would not answer when I
    asked. After thinking it over, I realized what they had done, which
    was to note that items like pork and beef were less healthy than
    chicken and fish (in general). Why didn't they just say that, as
    other researchers have? I don't know, but I doubt you will get an
    answer if you ask them. I couldn't.

    COMMENT:

    They probably figured you were unable to understand a logistic
    regression on variables of food composition. Yes, it's always possible
    in logistic regressions to get a variable that is a proxy variable
    (marker variable) for the true causal agent. In this case, it's always
    possible saturated fat is a proxy for something else unhealthy. And for
    that matter, it's possible that fish-eating is a proxy for some other
    really healthy activity. Just unlikely.

    Quoted message said:

    2. It appears that they are mining the same sources they did for the
    other study. They give simple tests to old people and also ask them to
    fill out questionnaires about what they ate. Many of them went on to
    develop AD within a few years. Were their memories failing before
    obvious signs of AD were present, and can we trust their memories at
    that point? Unless there is a way to control for this, it cannot be
    considered "science."

    COMMENT:
    It is controlled by means of the other recalled foods of the same
    eating frequency. Why would the start of Alzheimer's disease cause a
    person to differentially forget that they ate (say) fish once a week,
    vs. porkchops once a week? I don't know if there were controls for
    poverty of recall (to correct for people who couldn't recall ANY low
    frequency items) but good studies usually do this. For just the reasons
    we're discussing.

    Quoted message said:

    3. The conclusion was "eating fish at least once a week is good for
    the brain, slowing age-related mental decline." Now I agree that
    this makes sense, if the people ate fish low in fat as a substitute for
    beef and pork (and fried chicken, as well as a few other nasty things
    they would have eaten instead). But what about those great omega 3
    PUFAs, you ask? On to the next item:

    4. "The researchers looked for, but failed to find, a link between
    omega-3 fatty acids and protection from brain decline."

    COMMENT:

    Yes, but they did find a link between long chain omega-3's and brain
    decline. It's DHA that is in brains. If you dilute out that effect by
    looking at ALL omega-3's in the diet (including ALA from plants which
    isn't converted well to DHA) you may not find any effect. Which they
    did not.

    Quoted message said:

    Just as I
    have said here many times, it is not that fish is so good, but that
    beef and pork (especially they way they are processed, prepared,
    cooked, etc.) are so bad.

    COMMENT
    No, you're mis-reading the study. If you improperly lump in non-fish
    omega-3, you don't find brain protection. But you wouldn't expect to.
    It's not the plant omega-3's the normal human brain is made of. It's
    the fish omega-3's.

    Quoted message said:

    I've eaten canned tuna which had a label
    that said 0 grams of fat, so the fat is not the issue.

    COMMENT:
    That just means they picked their serving size to get the fat below 1
    gram, meaning they can legally put down "0". It doesn't mean it really
    is zero. That doesn't mean tuna doesn't have a lot of w-3 per calorie.
    Is has hundreds of times more than your coconut oil, and more than any
    other meat you can name.

    Quoted message said:

    Basically,
    canned tuna with 0 grams of fat is a good source of protein, though a
    bit serotogenic (so eating a lot would be unhealthy, though that was
    not the case among these old folks) and the mercury levels could be a
    concern to some. In other words, compared to a fried steak, high in
    iron, oxidized cholesterol, arachidonic acid and other PUFAs, etc.,
    something like canned tuna is much better.

    COMMENT:
    No. Again, it is true that fish is relatively low in fat (10% of
    calories typically, and almost never more than 15%), but if you look at
    it as grams w-3 per calorie, your tuna still beats your other meats by
    a mile. Sorry for your hypothesis. Guess you'll have to stop eating it.

    SBH

  2. There's no doubt that you just don't get. But if you think you are
    correct about omega 3s, fine, then you should except one of my
    experimental offers and demonstrate that I am wrong in an experiment
    which cannot be "massaged."

    We will feed a common lab mammal plenty of cooked salmon and canola
    oil, which represent the way most Americans think that they are getting
    "healthy omega 3s" and we will feed a second group fresh coconut oil
    and my choice of protein source, and we will see which group lives
    longer. Loser pays for all expenses.

    I am waiting...

  3. For those who have not read my previous posts on the problems with
    epidemiological studies in particular, I'll will briefly explain what
    people like SBHarris "don't get."

    I agree that saturated fatty acids may be associated with AD in a
    particular dietary context, but that means absolutely nothing by
    itself. Among peoples who eat coconut-based diet, the opposite
    association is the rule. Why don't these researchers address such
    glaring contradictions? Ask them, but don't expect a satisfying
    answer. At the end of this post you will find quotations from a recent
    AMA review of studies that contradict each other and why this
    phenomenon is so common these days.

    Here is what seems to have occurred: as was the case for other
    "disciplines," some wanted to establish "nutrition" as an
    academic discipline. The problem is that it was supposed to be
    scientific, and there's really no need for "nutritional science"
    at all, since biochemistry is more basic and all-encompassing, but one
    could say the same thing about other disciplines that exist these days
    on university campuses. So abstract categories needed to be
    postulated, which the "nutritionists" would then lord over as
    "experts." One of these categories is "saturated fat," which
    can mean different things to different "experts." For the most
    part, their claim is that "saturated fat" raises serum cholesterol
    and "clogs arteries." Not all saturated fatty acids (SFAs)
    however, have this effect. Some lower cholesterol. On top of that,
    basic biochemistry, involving how molecules like cholesterol can be
    changed into other molecules due to processes like oxidative stress,
    eludes most nutritionists entirely, and since it is now clear that only
    oxidized cholesterol is a problem, this is not an insignificant
    situation.

    This might not be much of a problem, because the scientific method
    should rule out the ridiculous claims of the "nutritional experts."
    However, the nutritionists found that giving people questionnaires and
    then using statistics was an easy way to generate "studies," and so
    they used this tool (called "epidemiology"😉, which, in the wrong
    hands, can lead to results that are just plain silly. And because most
    of these people are thinking in terms of mostly useless, abstract
    terms, and not biochemical realities, we are seeing a grand era (or
    error) of these kinds of studies. The most sensible thing would be to
    examine the biochemical evidence and consider dietary components in a
    biochemical context, then control for the components that seem to be
    relevant. So, for example, in the epidemiological study of the
    association between "saturated fat" and AD, one would need to know
    whether they controlled for iron intake, PUFA intake (of the various
    kinds), oxidized cholesterol, various molecules that are generated by
    the kinds of cooking methods used, socio-economic status (there is
    quite a scientific literature on this subject alone), and several other
    factors. This would be time consuming, but at least we would know more
    than what was fairly clear before they did their "study," that is,
    that in the American dietary context, eating fish and chicken instead
    of pork and beef seems to be a healthier thing to do. Instead, they
    went after the tried and true scapegoat, "saturated fat," and just
    wrote up a "quickie" study.

    On page B3 of the October 12, 2005 edition of Newsday newspaper is an
    article about the contradictions in the various "studies" we hear
    about in the mainstream newspaper. The author writes: "the Journal
    of the American Medical Association published a review of 49 prominent
    medical studies... that found nearly a third were later completely
    contradicted or had a smaller effect than first reported." And at
    least some of the reasons for this I mentioned above. However, there
    is undeniably a problem, which is that "clinical research is so
    time-consuming... that results, 'no matter how impressive, should be
    interpreted with caution...'"

    The kind of research that is necessary to be consistent with the
    scientific method would indeed be time-consuming and expensive, but
    there is a much better alternative to the current situation. Here is
    my solution: gather up the thousands of dogs that would otherwise be
    euthanized and feed them an assortment of different diets and then see
    what happens. Meticulous records should be kept. As the dogs get old
    or show symptoms of a "disease," they should be videotaped, so that
    everyone can see exactly what is happening. Then a paper would be
    prepared that explains what happened in detail, and everything would be
    made available to the public, over the internet. People could then
    decide for themselves what makes the most sense. An even better idea
    would be to use several species that are similar to humans in certain
    ways (and are not too expensive to keep). Thus, chimps, dogs, and pigs
    should be included, and perhaps other species. Then, all the money
    spent of the other studies that is not used in this one could be
    refunded to the taxpayers.

    Most people don't realize what a scam most studies are. As Dr.
    Marcia Angell (editor in chief of The New England Journal of Medicine
    for many years) states in her book, "The Truth About the Drug
    Companies:" "Is there some way companies can rig clinical trials
    to make their drugs look better than they are? Unfortunately, the
    answer is yes. Trials can be rigged in a dozen ways, and it happens
    all the time." Page 95. However, because "nutritionists" appear
    to be "objective" in their epidemiological studies, and because we
    take terms and phrases like "cholesterol" and "saturated fat"
    for granted, few have taken a close look at these studies. New York
    Times science writer, Gary Taubes, wrote an article several years ago,
    entitled, "What if it's all a big, fat lie," addressing what I
    would call "the tip of the iceberg," in terms of the shenanigans of
    the "nutritional experts," though many may not be aware of the lies
    they perpetuate because they were trained to think that "saturated
    fat is bad," and in the American dietary context, that
    "association" may indeed be present, if one just does an
    epidemiological study.

    So that is my solution: biochemistry should be used to isolate the
    actual molecules that appear to be problematic in food (much of that
    has already been done) and experimental animals should be fed a wide
    variety of diets (such as a traditional Eskimo type diet, a traditional
    South Pacific atoll coconut based diet, a Western vegan diet, a Western
    "junk food" diet, etc.). Then, the results should be compared to
    what is known biochemically, so that we could see if foods that are
    susceptible to lipid peroxidation, for example, correlate to particular
    "diseases." As it stands now, "nutritional science" is a near
    total mess. The textbooks are loaded with faulty "models" and
    assumptions, terribly flawed studies that were never verified using
    proper controls are still being cited as the only source for claims
    that make no sense biochemically, and the public hears about one study
    that contradicts another one they heard about the day before. There
    are some good studies, but the public does not know which are good and
    which are not. There is enough biochemical evidence to suggest in the
    strongest possible terms that one should get the arachidonic acid out
    of their bodies as soon as possible, allowing the body to replace it
    with the natural (for humans) Mead acid. However, feeding several
    species of mammals many different diets that humans have or are eating
    and seeing what happens would be something most people could
    understand. As is the case with many mentally ill people, though, the
    "experts" can't see what is obvious to those who encounter them
    on a regular basis.

    NOTE: To SBHarris's claim that the brain is rich in DHA: where is the
    evidence for this? I have asked for a study on accident victims'
    brains which demonstrates that this is the case, but I have not seen a
    citation. Just because a textbook makes a claim does not mean that
    there is any evidence to support it. This is a demonstration of where
    our "nutritional experts" go wrong. I have seen relatives consume
    no source of omega 3s, except in the tiniest of trace amounts (if at
    all) and yet the "experts" talk of "rapid DHA turnover in the
    brain." They are still alive and well, and quite old (two are dead,
    one lived to be 96, the other over 100). In science, only one example
    to the contrary disproves the claim, just as I demonstrated about
    "essential fatty acids." If they were truly essential, no animals
    would have been born healthy in the experiments done to demonstrate
    "essentiality." This is so basic that if you don't understand
    it, there's nothing else that can be said. Put forth your hypothesis
    specifically and propose experiments that can be used to support or
    disprove it. I have done that, but those who believe in the
    "essential fatty acid" nonsense do not. I have no idea what the
    hypothesis is. Is it that there is "rapid DHA turnover in the
    brain," and hence one needs to eat a great deal of food that contains
    EPA or DHA, or is it that one only needs the tiniest of trace amounts?
    Do we need arachidonic acid in all our cells? If we have the Mead acid
    instead, exactly what will happen, and how long will it take to happen?
    And on, and on... They just don't realize that science is not an
    episode of the "Hannity and Combs" show. It is not "your
    evidence" versus "my evidence." There is an underlying
    scientific reality, and it needs to be explained. Affirming what one
    would like to believe and dismissing what one does not is best
    exemplified by religion. It is not science. But SBHarris deserves
    some credit for spending some time on these issues, so I put it to
    him/her: what exactly is the "essential fatty acid" hypothesis?
    How much does one need, what will happen when one avoids them (except
    in trace amounts), etc.? If you are unwilling to explain this, it is
    clear that you do not believe it yourself, or are treating it like a
    religious doctrine.

  4. "montygram" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Here is what seems to have occurred: as was the case for other
    "disciplines," some wanted to establish "nutrition" as an
    academic discipline. The problem is that it was supposed to be
    scientific, and there's really no need for "nutritional science"
    at all, since biochemistry is more basic and all-encompassing, but one
    could say the same thing about other disciplines that exist these days
    on university campuses.

    the same warped logic could be applied for medicine: why are there
    internists, physicians, urologists, pathologists,.. if its all medicine that
    they do?
    ...chemistry: why do we need organic chemists, physical chemists, anorganic
    chemists, biochemists...
    and so on..? why are there pharmacists- isn't that chemistry as well?
    ...its nonsense of course to ask such questions.

    they specialized in an area because the field is too large- same goes for
    nutritional science and biochemistry. (with the additional exception that
    nutritional science also encompasses non-biochemistry topics like
    psychology, sociology and epidemiology for instance).

    Quoted message said:

    On page B3 of the October 12, 2005 edition of Newsday newspaper is an
    article about the contradictions in the various "studies" we hear
    about in the mainstream newspaper. The author writes: "the Journal
    of the American Medical Association published a review of 49 prominent
    medical studies... that found nearly a third were later completely
    contradicted or had a smaller effect than first reported."

    Is the newspaper your main source of scientific information?

    Quoted message said:

    The kind of research that is necessary to be consistent with the
    scientific method would indeed be time-consuming and expensive, but
    there is a much better alternative to the current situation. Here is
    my solution: gather up the thousands of dogs that would otherwise be
    euthanized and feed them an assortment of different diets and then see
    what happens. Meticulous records should be kept. As the dogs get old
    or show symptoms of a "disease," they should be videotaped, so that
    everyone can see exactly what is happening. Then a paper would be
    prepared that explains what happened in detail, and everything would be
    made available to the public, over the internet. People could then
    decide for themselves what makes the most sense. An even better idea
    would be to use several species that are similar to humans in certain
    ways (and are not too expensive to keep). Thus, chimps, dogs, and pigs
    should be included, and perhaps other species. Then, all the money
    spent of the other studies that is not used in this one could be
    refunded to the taxpayers.

    no matter how many times everyone here commented on your blue-eyed view of
    how a study is conducted, you still return to it with the same stamina an
    asylum inmate bangs his head against the padded wall 24 hours a day with.

    for other other readers unfamiliar with monty's delusions:

    first: dogs that are about to be euthanized and probably lived on the street
    for some time are hardly a model for a healthy animal.

    second: humans are omnivores.. feeding a carnivore (dog) a diet has
    different effects that feeding an omnivore the exact same diet.

    third: canines can synthesize vitamin c (which means its not a vitamin for
    them), we cannot.

    fourth: money; thousands of dogs studied and fed for their lifetime?
    montygram obviously has never been, nor has ever talked to a dog holder and
    is lacking basic cost calculations. this would, of course, be extremely
    costly -just think of the costs of food alone (this has to be custom-mixed
    by a company so it is the same every single time), the lab personell that
    has to be paid, the rent of laboratry space/equipment, etc.

    ... and so forth, and so forth...

    Quoted message said:

    Most people don't realize what a scam most studies are. As Dr.
    Marcia Angell (editor in chief of The New England Journal of Medicine
    for many years) states in her book, "The Truth About the Drug
    Companies:"..

    Aren't you contradicting yourself?
    If every single study would be sponsored by big pharma- why would it cost
    the tax payer money (as you so often like to criticize)?

    Not to say that fake studies studies cannot or are not being published.. you
    just grossly overestimate the number... and it always comes out sooner or
    later.

    Quoted message said:

    understand. As is the case with many mentally ill people, though, the
    "experts" can't see what is obvious to those who encounter them
    on a regular basis.

    all the experts are part of a big conspiracy? big pharma is behind all
    studies? all textbooks are fake?
    paranoia is also a case of mental illness you know..

    Quoted message said:

    NOTE: To SBHarris's claim that the brain is rich in DHA: where is the
    evidence for this?

    are you too lazy to read?
    try these:
    Svennerholm L. Distribution and fatty acid composition of phosphoglycerides
    in normal human brain. J Lipid Res 1968;9:570 -9.

    Anderson RE, Maude MB, Zimmerman W. Lipids of ocular tissues- X. Lipid
    composition of subcellular fractions of bovine retina. Vision Res
    1975;15:1087-90.

    Martin RE, Bazan NG. Changing fatty acid content of growth cone lipids prior
    to synaptogenesis. J Neurochem 1992;59:318 -25.

    Sastry PS. Lipids of nervous tissue: composition and metabolism. Prog Lipid
    Res 1985;24:69 -176.

    Giusto NM, Pasquare SJ, Salvador GA, Castagnet PI, Roque ME, Ilincheta de
    Boschero MG. Lipid metabolism in vertebrate retinal rod outer segments. Prog
    Lipid Res 2000;39:315-91

  5. montygram said:

    There's no doubt that you just don't get.

    There is no doubt that you NEVER respond to what people write. You
    just go off on another tirade of yours.

    Quoted message said:

    But if you think you are
    correct about omega 3s, fine, then you should except one of my
    experimental offers and demonstrate that I am wrong in an experiment
    which cannot be "massaged."

    Speaking of "markers," What do you think that Alzheimer's disease (AD)
    is? In the context of this THREAD, you are using it as a marker.
    Don't you think that you first have to prove that it is a valid
    "marker" before going into this tirade?

    Just thought that you might want to know that you are just an idiot.

  6. "Markers", of what is bigotry a marker?

  7. Quoted message said:

    "Markers", of what is bigotry a marker?

    I am glad that you managed to put your own stupidity in print.

    Quackpots and Crackpots are a "marker" of bigotry.

    I myself have nothing against the use of markers. I have been using
    them for some 6 years now.

    I came across some interesting information on the vaccination scams
    that medicine has been promoting to night.

    There is no need for any normal person to ever get an annual flu
    vaccination. The danger if there is any danger is from getting
    pneumonia after coming down with the flu. Thus, you should get that
    pneumonia vaccination at most. You know that one shot deal that
    protects against bacterial forms of pneumonia? Of course, I personally
    have NEVER gotten the flu. When I do get sick, I NEVER stay sick for
    more than 8 hours.

    The next scam is the bird flu scare being promoted by medicine.

    The only people who will ever die from the bird flu are in constant
    contact with birds. I don't work with chickens or have a love affair
    with animals in general.

    My risk of ever getting this flu [censored] is directly related to my age and
    level of physical fitness.

    Then there is that nutty physician who has spent 50 years of his life
    researching the 1918 flu virus so that a vaccine can be made. They
    still have not develeped a vaccine for a deadly flu that simply doesn't
    exist. When it finally hits the market, the government will stockpile
    it so that they will eventually be able to throw it all out. Are you
    Crackpots fruity as this kooky 1918 flu vaccination SCAM?

    All you Crackpots should me made to take a flu vaccination every month
    of your rotten miserable bigoted lives. 🙂

    Just my opinion, but I am always right. Bigots like you, make it all
    too easy to be perfect in every way. 🙂

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