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Re: Vitamin E dangerous?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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10 November 2004
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  1. I fear your view of "bad" doesn't match the principle study, a closer
    reading finds:

    "In the British Heart Protection Study, the patients taking vitamin E
    ended up on the wrong side of the survival line. It was not a
    statistical glitch; it was a clear indication of increased mortality."
    The study cited by Gibbons, which also studied the benefit of
    cholesterol-lowering drugs, randomly assigned more than 10,000
    patients to take 660 IU of vitamin E daily and more than 10,000 to
    take a placebo. In those taking vitamin E, there was about a 10
    percent increase in death rate."

    As for "sick" people being used, if one wants to study effect of substance
    x on the death rate among people with disorder y, would you use healthy
    people to do the study? Both groups were "sick",ie. those using vit e and
    those not, the difference in death rate occured with those using vit e,
    this suppports the idea that vit e doesn't improve survival rate for heart
    patients and in facts decreases survival rate. Do you think it possible
    that the pharma folk also sell "supplements" using some subsidery
    corperations. The supplement biz is a 15,000,000,000 dallor a year biz
    and the pharma companies are as eager to make money as the next. One
    wouldn't be surprised if the proffit margin greater with the supplement
    biz.

    Quoted message said:

    really bad 'study'... a mix of others collated to get that
    result. Many of the subjects on the range of studies were
    already suffering from serious diseases.

    There may or or may not be some validity to the
    findings...bias or not. etc One thing for sure, if the drug
    companies can get us to stop taking suppliments, they will
    sell more of thier vioxxy type [censored].

    Phil Scott

  2. Quoted message said:


    I fear your view of "bad" doesn't match the principle study, a closer
    reading finds:

    snipped review of most relevant study--

    Quoted message said:

    The supplement biz is a 15,000,000,000 dallor a year biz
    and the pharma companies are as eager to make money as the next. One
    wouldn't be surprised if the proffit margin greater with the supplement
    biz.

    This is true. Indeed, one of the biggest manufacturers is
    Hoffmann-LaRoche. What was more interesting to me was:

    "He says there are several theories about why vitamin E increases
    risk.
    One theory is that it increases bleeding risk, which would increase
    the risk of a type of stroke, while another theory suggests that at
    high doses vitamin E stops working like an antioxidant, removing
    harmful molecules in the body, and instead becomes a pro-oxidant,
    actually promoting the production of harmful molecules.

    Still another scenario suggests that high doses of vitamin E tend to
    wipe out other antioxidants, which disrupts the body's natural
    antioxidant protection system."

    This gets more to the issue, I think. These data are not dissimilar
    from the findings of the dangers of beta carotene.

    Well, I think that makes sense. Anyone who knows even the most general
    science of oxidative stress will realize that these individual agents
    work as antioxidants for a specific oxdiant. They then must be reduced
    by another antioxidant. So they work in tight knit cycles.

    Thinking in the framework of "one drug for one condition" (let alone a
    bug/infectious disease) in this context is really moronically stupid.
    And it is little wonder that people who take high dose Vitamin E or
    beta carotene fare poorly. Indeed, it's rather suprising to me that
    the increased mortality risk is so low!

    By contrast, using an array of antioxidants makes MUCH more sense. A
    case in point is the studies of beta carotene in HIV disease, some
    studies for preventing mother-to-child transmission. In those studies,
    no benefit was found. No surprise. However, recent studies of the use
    of a MULTIVITAMIN showed much better effect. Indeed, HIV disease
    progression was slowed by 30%.

    That's because you get a full array of the elements of the oxidative
    stress cycles that provide a balance: vitamins A, C, E, the B
    vitamins, selenium, zinc. A good potent multi I think is an important
    cornerstone of therapy. One might add to that agents like NAC, alpha
    lipoic acid and other enhancers of glutathione, catalase and the SODs.

    And don't forget that both the vitamins A and E used are a restricted
    chemical whereas in nature, one consumes a variety of carotenoids,
    tocopherols and tocopheryls.

    Indeed. Don't just take Vitamin E. Just take a good quality, decently
    potent multi if you wish to supplement.

    George M. Carter

  3. "GMCarter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Well, I think that makes sense. Anyone who knows even the most general
    science of oxidative stress will realize that these individual agents
    work as antioxidants for a specific oxdiant. They then must be reduced
    by another antioxidant. So they work in tight knit cycles.

    Thinking in the framework of "one drug for one condition" (let alone a
    bug/infectious disease) in this context is really moronically stupid.

    As an aside, if you look at the literature used to support the existing Upper Limit
    for vitamin E intake, there is a safety factor of 36 applied to the Lowest
    Observable Adverse Effects Level of intake. The adverse effect in question is
    disturbance of clotting. But, if you look more closely, you'll see that this
    particular adverse effect was likely due to vitamin K deficiency in those
    susceptible individuals. That issue takes you down another path entirely unrelated
    to vitamin E toxicity, in my opinion.

    Quoted message said:

    And it is little wonder that people who take high dose Vitamin E or
    beta carotene fare poorly. Indeed, it's rather suprising to me that
    the increased mortality risk is so low!

    George, I think you are right on the money. There is quite an array of tocopheryl
    radical quenchers, including vitamin C, alphalipoic acid, glutathione, carotenoids,
    Co Q10, xanthines, lutein, on and on. What is the key criterion is the localized
    half-life of the tocopheryl radical. It is pro-oxidant, but only if the formation of
    this radical exceeds the net quenching capacity of the other inter-related
    anti-oxidants.

    It's a trade-off, the destruction of more reactive (and thus more destructive)
    radicals for less reactive ones of longer half-life. The chain must be unbroken, up
    to the point where two less reactive, longer half-life radicals, react to form a
    stable molecule. Stalling the chain at e.g. tocopheryl radical (or ascorbyl radical,
    or whatever) will sustain oxidative capacity. The damage done by those "antioxidants
    turned oxidants" will differ based on the chemistry of the particular radical
    itself. The tocopheryl radical will damage lipids preferentially, for example, due
    to its hydrophobic physical characteristics.

    Reductionist science will never discover this relationship. It is not part of the
    mindset. Methodologies with one independent variable do not provide you with
    generalizable information, the way some scientists think they do. The statistics
    hold there value in other populations if and only if all other variables are
    similarly constrained. The reasonable conclusion from this study might be that
    taking vitamin E as sole antioxidant supplement may be injurious if you exceed the
    antioxidant capacity for tocopheryl quenching.

    Lar

  4. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I fear your view of "bad" doesn't match the principle study, a closer
    reading finds:

    "In the British Heart Protection Study, the patients taking vitamin E
    ended up on the wrong side of the survival line. It was not a
    statistical glitch; it was a clear indication of increased mortality."
    The study cited by Gibbons, which also studied the benefit of
    cholesterol-lowering drugs, randomly assigned more than 10,000
    patients to take 660 IU of vitamin E daily and more than 10,000 to
    take a placebo. In those taking vitamin E, there was about a 10
    percent increase in death rate."

    There's a totally uncontrolled aspect of supplementation with vitamin E, here, in
    that most supplements reported in these studies are d-alpha, or d-,l-alpha
    tocopherol. As alpha tocopherol has substantially higher binding affinity to
    transport proteins than do delta- or gamma-, there is a marked substitution of the
    former for the latter two in tissues, even if diet is otherwise adequate. In the
    discussion in this paper, it seems this suppression of especially gamma-tocopherol
    concentrations persists for two years, and delta-tocopherol concentrations became
    undetectable. As gamma-tocopherol in particular is thought to be selective for NOx
    pro-oxidants, this may permit an increase in the formation of peroxynitrite from NO
    and superoxide anion. That's bad news for health.

    Full-text (link), abstract below:

    http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/10/3137

    J Nutr. 2003 Oct;133(10):3137-40.

    Supplementation of diets with alpha-tocopherol reduces serum concentrations of
    gamma- and delta-tocopherol in humans.

    Huang HY, Appel LJ.

    Department of Epidemiology, Bloomberg School of Public Health, Johns Hopkins
    University, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA. [email hidden]

    Despite promising evidence from in vitro experiments and observational studies,
    supplementation of diets with alpha-tocopherol has not reduced the risk of
    cardiovascular disease and cancer in most large-scale clinical trials. One plausible
    explanation is that the potential health benefits of alpha-tocopherol supplements
    are offset by deleterious changes in the bioavailability and/or bioactivity of other
    nutrients. We studied the effects of supplementing diets with RRR-alpha-tocopheryl
    acetate (400 IU/d) on serum concentrations of gamma- and delta-tocopherol in a
    randomized, placebo-controlled trial in 184 adult nonsmokers. Outcomes were changes
    in serum concentrations of gamma- and delta-tocopherol from baseline to the end of
    the 2-mo experimental period. Compared with placebo, supplementation with
    alpha-tocopherol reduced serum gamma-tocopherol concentrations by a median change of
    58% [95% CI = (51%, 66%), P < 0.0001], and reduced the number of individuals with
    detectable delta-tocopherol concentrations (P < 0.0001). Consistent with trial
    results were the results from baseline cross-sectional analyses, in which prior
    vitamin E supplement users had significantly lower serum gamma-tocopherol than
    nonusers. In view of the potential benefits of gamma- and delta-tocopherol, the
    efficacy of alpha-tocopherol supplementation may be reduced due to decreases in
    serum gamma- and delta-tocopherol levels. Additional research is clearly warranted.

  5. "There's a totally uncontrolled aspect of supplementation with vitamin
    E, in that most supplements reported in these studies are d-alpha, or
    d-,l-alph tocopherol. As alpha tocopherol has substantially higher
    binding affinity transport proteins than do delta- or gamma-, there is
    a marked substituti the former for the latter two in tissues, even if
    diet is otherwise adequate."

    I agree, and this has been a problem with many such studies, even where
    positive results might have been suggested. However, the article on which
    this thread was based was in part making the central point that use of vit
    e in this manner had become a matter of popular culture and nutritional
    folklore and in which case vit e in this form is what one is likely to get
    when picking up the most available bottle at retail; in which case the
    health risk point remains well taken. It points to the success of
    marketing something with a generic name, vit e, regardless of content.
    For all those nutritional conspiracy buffs,ie. the pharma companies want
    to take away our supplements and sell us pills, the public was sold vit e
    and the buffs fail to realize that vit e became widely available when the
    multinational grain companies found a way to cheaply extract vit e in this
    form from corn; and the marketing began.

  6. "Larry Hoover" <[email hidden]> wrote
    <HOOVER>
    There's a totally uncontrolled aspect of supplementation with vitamin
    E, here, in that most supplements reported in these studies are
    d-alpha, or d-,l-alpha tocopherol. As alpha tocopherol has
    substantially higher binding affinity to transport proteins than do
    delta- or gamma-, there is a marked substitution of the former for the
    latter two in tissues, even if diet is otherwise adequate. In the
    discussion in this paper, it seems this suppression of especially
    gamma-tocopherol concentrations persists for two years, and
    delta-tocopherol concentrations became undetectable. As
    gamma-tocopherol in particular is thought to be selective for NOx
    pro-oxidants, this may permit an increase in the formation of
    peroxynitrite from NO and superoxide anion. That's bad news for
    health.

    Full-text (link), abstract below: [to Huang and Appell]

    http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/10/3137
    </HOOVER>

    OK, OK! I was unimpressed by the Miller meta-analysis. But the Huang
    and Appell study (who are from Johns Hopkins, just as Miller is)
    caught my attention. I'm quitting my 400mg alpha-tocopherol
    supplements today!

    Just for info, are there Vitamin E supplements available out there
    that have a reasonable mix of the 8 different forms? Are there animal
    studies that have been done with the mixture? Any that are specific
    to diabetes?

    Adam Becker

  7. On 11 Nov 2004 12:50:11 -0800, [email hidden] (Adam Becker

    Sr) said:

    "Larry Hoover" <[email hidden]> wrote
    <HOOVER>
    There's a totally uncontrolled aspect of supplementation with vitamin
    E, here, in that most supplements reported in these studies are
    d-alpha, or d-,l-alpha tocopherol. As alpha tocopherol has
    substantially higher binding affinity to transport proteins than do
    delta- or gamma-, there is a marked substitution of the former for the
    latter two in tissues, even if diet is otherwise adequate. In the
    discussion in this paper, it seems this suppression of especially
    gamma-tocopherol concentrations persists for two years, and
    delta-tocopherol concentrations became undetectable. As
    gamma-tocopherol in particular is thought to be selective for NOx
    pro-oxidants, this may permit an increase in the formation of
    peroxynitrite from NO and superoxide anion. That's bad news for
    health.

    Full-text (link), abstract below: [to Huang and Appell]

    http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/10/3137
    </HOOVER>

    OK, OK! I was unimpressed by the Miller meta-analysis. But the Huang
    and Appell study (who are from Johns Hopkins, just as Miller is)
    caught my attention. I'm quitting my 400mg alpha-tocopherol
    supplements today!

    Just for info, are there Vitamin E supplements available out there
    that have a reasonable mix of the 8 different forms? Are there animal
    studies that have been done with the mixture? Any that are specific
    to diabetes?

    Adam Becker

    I have seen references in books to mixed Vitamin E supplements, but
    it's apparently a specialty item. You won't find it in a supermarket
    or drug store, nor in most chain supplement stores.

  8. "Adam Becker Sr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Full-text (link), abstract below: [to Huang and Appell]

    http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/10/3137
    </HOOVER>

    OK, OK! I was unimpressed by the Miller meta-analysis. But the Huang
    and Appell study (who are from Johns Hopkins, just as Miller is)
    caught my attention. I'm quitting my 400mg alpha-tocopherol
    supplements today!

    Hey, a convert! ;-)

    Quoted message said:


    Just for info, are there Vitamin E supplements available out there
    that have a reasonable mix of the 8 different forms? Are there animal
    studies that have been done with the mixture? Any that are specific
    to diabetes?

    Adam Becker

    I'd be looking for "mixed tocopherols", and/or some mention of at least
    gamma-tocopherol on the label. There is another "category" of vitamin E altogether,
    the tocotrienols. It's all a nomenclature nightmare, to be honest. Just take a
    gander at this page about the nomenclature:

    http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/misc/toc.html

    Maybe there's something in the links (references) to the Huang article.

    Lar

  9. "Adam Becker Sr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Just for info, are there Vitamin E supplements available out there
    that have a reasonable mix of the 8 different forms? Are there animal
    studies that have been done with the mixture? Any that are specific
    to diabetes?

    No idea if it's a reasonable mix, but it is a mix.
    http://store.yahoo.com/nowcatalog/0810.html

  10. "None Given" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Adam Becker Sr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Just for info, are there Vitamin E supplements available out there
    that have a reasonable mix of the 8 different forms? Are there animal
    studies that have been done with the mixture? Any that are specific
    to diabetes?

    No idea if it's a reasonable mix, but it is a mix.
    http://store.yahoo.com/nowcatalog/0810.html

    I just looked at a bunch of different products available at iherb, and this Now
    product looks like the one I'd pick. Slightly cheaper in the 120 count, at iherb.
    http://www.iherb.com/gammae.html

    Lar

  11. The following is worthy of consideration in this context:

    Vitamin E Supplements May Cause Harm

    Contrary to popular belief, vitamin E supplements appear to provide
    little benefit to health and may even cause harm, according to
    researchers at the 39th Annual Conference on Cardiovascular Disease
    Epidemiology and Prevention held last week in Orlando, Florida.

    They believe vitamin E and most other nutrients should be consumed via
    a healthy, balanced diet.

    Cardiovascular disease is associated with a gradual deposition of
    fatty plaques on artery walls. This plaque forms through the oxidation
    in the blood of LDL ("bad"😉 cholesterol.

    Specific nutrients, called antioxidants, are thought to inhibit this
    oxidative process and protect against heart disease.

    Researchers examined levels of intake of four antioxidants -- vitamins
    E and C, beta carotene, and folic acid -- in a group of 54
    postmenopausal women. They then compared rates of LDL oxidation in
    blood samples taken from each of the subjects.

    The investigators found that women whose vitamin E source was dietary
    displayed significant reductions in LDL oxidation.

    However, women who took in vitamin E via supplements actually
    increased their oxidation levels. The more they took in, the worse
    their LDL oxidation.

    She explained that the vitamin E found in supplements comes in the
    form of alpha-tocopherol, while the vitamin E in food is manifested as
    a different compound, gamma-tocopherol.

    Among supplement users, alpha-tocopherol displaces the
    gamma-tocopherol in our tissues, so that now all you've got is
    alpha-tocopherol instead of gamma-tocopherol, and it may be the
    gamma-tocopherol that's protective.

    Nuts, monounsaturated vegetable oils, whole grains, and wheat germ are
    the best dietary sources of vitamin E, according to experts. According
    to the Michigan study, women who obtained the highest amounts of
    vitamin E from their diets also displayed the lowest amounts of LDL
    oxidation.

    You probably can't get too much vitamin E in food.
    Dr. Mercola's Comment:

    As mentioned above, natural sources of vitamins are usually superior.
    This study is not yet published so it is hard to determine any flaws
    in it. However, I believe the premise if valid.

    I suspect the reason that the supplemental vitamin E did not help is
    that is was synthetic and only the alpha tocopherol. I fully believe
    that one of the best sources of vitamin E is Unique Vitamin E which
    has all the various tocopherols in it, including the gamma portion.

    It is also the highest quality grade available. Grace is the company
    that produces it and that is their ONLY product.

    I suspect that higher doses of vitamin E are probably unnecessary and
    would be reluctant to recommend doses beyond 400 IU, despite what
    Grace states in their materials.

    Another down side of vitamin E supplementation is individuals who have
    a large amount of long chain fatty acids (carbons greater than 20)
    usually have some type of acquired metabolic defect and taking vitamin
    E.

    They will actually make them worse as the vitamin E is a potent
    inhibitor of beta oxidation of long chain fats.

    Source: http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/vitamin_e.htm

    "Larry Hoover" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "GMCarter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Well, I think that makes sense. Anyone who knows even the most general
    science of oxidative stress will realize that these individual agents
    work as antioxidants for a specific oxdiant. They then must be reduced
    by another antioxidant. So they work in tight knit cycles.

    Thinking in the framework of "one drug for one condition" (let alone a
    bug/infectious disease) in this context is really moronically stupid.

    As an aside, if you look at the literature used to support the existing Upper Limit
    for vitamin E intake, there is a safety factor of 36 applied to the Lowest
    Observable Adverse Effects Level of intake. The adverse effect in question is
    disturbance of clotting. But, if you look more closely, you'll see that this
    particular adverse effect was likely due to vitamin K deficiency in those
    susceptible individuals. That issue takes you down another path entirely unrelated
    to vitamin E toxicity, in my opinion.

    Quoted message said:

    And it is little wonder that people who take high dose Vitamin E or
    beta carotene fare poorly. Indeed, it's rather suprising to me that
    the increased mortality risk is so low!

    George, I think you are right on the money. There is quite an array of tocopheryl
    radical quenchers, including vitamin C, alphalipoic acid, glutathione, carotenoids,
    Co Q10, xanthines, lutein, on and on. What is the key criterion is the localized
    half-life of the tocopheryl radical. It is pro-oxidant, but only if the formation of
    this radical exceeds the net quenching capacity of the other inter-related
    anti-oxidants.

    It's a trade-off, the destruction of more reactive (and thus more destructive)
    radicals for less reactive ones of longer half-life. The chain must be unbroken, up
    to the point where two less reactive, longer half-life radicals, react to form a
    stable molecule. Stalling the chain at e.g. tocopheryl radical (or ascorbyl radical,
    or whatever) will sustain oxidative capacity. The damage done by those "antioxidants
    turned oxidants" will differ based on the chemistry of the particular radical
    itself. The tocopheryl radical will damage lipids preferentially, for example, due
    to its hydrophobic physical characteristics.

    Reductionist science will never discover this relationship. It is not part of the
    mindset. Methodologies with one independent variable do not provide you with
    generalizable information, the way some scientists think they do. The statistics
    hold there value in other populations if and only if all other variables are
    similarly constrained. The reasonable conclusion from this study might be that
    taking vitamin E as sole antioxidant supplement may be injurious if you exceed the
    antioxidant capacity for tocopheryl quenching.

    Lar

  12. On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:12:54 -0500, "Larry Hoover"
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    snip...

    Quoted message said:


    George, I think you are right on the money. There is quite an array of tocopheryl
    radical quenchers, including vitamin C, alphalipoic acid, glutathione, carotenoids,
    Co Q10, xanthines, lutein, on and on. What is the key criterion is the localized
    half-life of the tocopheryl radical. It is pro-oxidant, but only if the formation of
    this radical exceeds the net quenching capacity of the other inter-related
    anti-oxidants.

    You can say that again!! LOL...thanks. There's a therapeutic
    implication embedded in that lovely disquisition. Do you think they'll
    ever figure it out????

    I think a tocopheryl radical is less problematic than a hydroxyl
    radical--but right. If it isn't quenched, it might cause a trouble
    that could result in no benefit or some slight increased risk.

    George M. Carter

  13. Larry Hoover said:

    "Adam Becker Sr" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Full-text (link), abstract below: [to Huang and Appell]

    http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/10/3137
    </HOOVER>

    OK, OK! I was unimpressed by the Miller meta-analysis. But the Huang
    and Appell study (who are from Johns Hopkins, just as Miller is)
    caught my attention. I'm quitting my 400mg alpha-tocopherol
    supplements today!

    Quoted message said:

    Hey, a convert! ;-)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Just for info, are there Vitamin E supplements available out there
    that have a reasonable mix of the 8 different forms? Are there animal
    studies that have been done with the mixture? Any that are specific
    to diabetes?

    Adam Becker

    Quoted message said:

    I'd be looking for "mixed tocopherols", and/or some mention of at least
    gamma-tocopherol on the label. There is another "category" of vitamin E altogether,
    the tocotrienols. It's all a nomenclature nightmare, to be honest. Just take a
    gander at this page about the nomenclature:

    http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/misc/toc.html

    Maybe there's something in the links (references) to the Huang article.

    Lar

    wouldn't it be safer (and cheaper) to just
    focus on getting your vitamin E from your diet?

    say from eating fresh salad/frozen vegies (which
    have some vitamin E), and especially some raw
    almonds and raw sunflower seeds (which are both
    rich with vitamin E)

    bill type-1 diabetic since '57

  14. "willbill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    wouldn't it be safer (and cheaper) to just
    focus on getting your vitamin E from your diet?

    That presumes that diet can supply all requirements of vitamin E, doesn't it?

    Quoted message said:

    say from eating fresh salad/frozen vegies (which
    have some vitamin E), and especially some raw
    almonds and raw sunflower seeds (which are both
    rich with vitamin E)

    They are excellent natural sources of vitamin E, but it still begs the question.
    Natural is not, in all respects, equal to optimal. I'm sure Mother Nature has the
    almond tree and sunflower plant producing vitamin E to protect the seed. It does not
    necessarily follow that consumers of that seed are getting optimal nutrition
    therefrom.

    I'm challenging the assumptions in the general case, as well as with respect to
    vitamin E specifically. Some months ago, I challenged anyone to provide a diet which
    meets all RDAs simultaneously. I didn't ever see one that worked. To my knowledge,
    there is no such diet, despite the "general wisdom" that a balanced diet (arbitrary
    and nebulous concept that it is) will meet all nutritional needs.

    Lar

  15. On 10 Nov 2004 21:29:53 GMT, [email hidden] posted:

    Quoted message said:

    "In the British Heart Protection Study, the patients taking vitamin E
    ended up on the wrong side of the survival line. It was not a
    statistical glitch; it was a clear indication of increased mortality."
    The study cited by Gibbons, which also studied the benefit of
    cholesterol-lowering drugs, randomly assigned more than 10,000
    patients to take 660 IU of vitamin E daily and more than 10,000 to
    take a placebo. In those taking vitamin E, there was about a 10
    percent increase in death rate."

    What was the increased rate with Vioxx?

  16. There was a study in a peer-reviewed journal some time
    ago on the effect of vitamin E on HbA1c. The results
    showed an improvement at levels from 400 to 1200 units.

    One of the problems of vitamin E when used with aspirin
    or other blood thinners is that this is one of the known
    effects of vitamin E.

    One cannot get anything like the levels in the supplements
    from foods. The richest sources are wheat germ oil and
    cod liver oil, with soybean oil at 40% of their level.
    To get 400 units from any of these requires lots of calories.
    --
    This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
    are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
    Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
    [email hidden] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

  17. Larry Hoover said:

    "willbill" wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    wouldn't it be safer (and cheaper) to just
    focus on getting your vitamin E from your diet?

    Quoted message said:

    That presumes that diet can supply all requirements of vitamin E, doesn't it?

    agreed

    but to be clear, reread the title of this thread
    ("Vitamin E dangerous?"😉

    the OP only posted a CBS ref (which i didn't read;
    i did read CNN and New Scientist)

    to me the studies are talking about no benefit
    (and possible risk) from taking viatmin E pills
    *longterm*
    *longterm*
    *longterm*

    that's as opposed to shortterm
    (to solve a temporary problem)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    say from eating fresh salad/frozen vegies (which
    have some vitamin E), and especially some raw
    almonds and raw sunflower seeds (which are both
    rich with vitamin E)

    Quoted message said:

    They are excellent natural sources of vitamin E, but it still begs the question.
    Natural is not, in all respects, equal to optimal. I'm sure Mother Nature has the
    almond tree and sunflower plant producing vitamin E to protect the seed. It does not
    necessarily follow that consumers of that seed are getting optimal nutrition
    therefrom.

    I'm challenging the assumptions in the general case, as well as with respect to
    vitamin E specifically. Some months ago, I challenged anyone to provide a diet which
    meets all RDAs simultaneously. I didn't ever see one that worked. To my knowledge,
    there is no such diet, despite the "general wisdom" that a balanced diet (arbitrary
    and nebulous concept that it is) will meet all nutritional needs.

    this is another of the many refs that showed up
    on this subject this last week:

    http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996653

    in part it sez:

    <" ...

    Most of the 25% of US adults who take vitamin E supplements take
    them in large doses - greater than 400 IU per day.

    "People take high doses because they think they're going to
    live longer," says lead author Edgar R. Miller, a physician at
    Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore, Maryland.
    "But this research doesn't support that. The death rate is higher
    with high doses."

    ...

    But the authors caution that the results may not apply to the population
    at large because the high-dose trials were small and their participants
    tended to have chronic health problems such as heart disease. And because
    most of the studies did not note the cause of death, the authors say they
    cannot conclude anything about the underlying mechanism.

    But they list four possible causes.

    ...">

    i thought the "four possible causes" weren't bad

    my analyst skills tell me that the list is incomplete

    science tends to get it right, but it takes time,
    decades of time, for complicated stuff like diet
    (and appropriate studies)

    bill

  18. On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:59:59 -0500, "Larry Hoover"
    <[email hidden]> posted:

    Quoted message said:

    To my knowledge,
    there is no such diet, despite the "general wisdom" that a balanced diet (arbitrary
    and nebulous concept that it is) will meet all nutritional needs.

    I just looked up "balanced diet" in my dictionary, and it means the
    diet that you say is non-existent :-)
    That is a diet that supplies all dietary needs.

  19. Herman Rubin said:

    One cannot get anything like the levels in the supplements
    from foods. The richest sources are wheat germ oil and
    cod liver oil, with soybean oil at 40% of their level.
    To get 400 units from any of these requires lots of calories.

    As far as I know cod liver oil is not a good source of vitamin E.
    http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-001-02s00hg.html

    Wheat germ oil is getting my interest as it has a quite large spectrum
    of different tocopherols and tocotrienols, at least six out of eight.
    http://www.tocotrienol.org/sources.htm

    Quoted message said:

    From this site you can also notice that palm oil has a lot of different


    tocopherols and tocotrienols. Although it has a high saturated fat
    content, the high content of these different forms of vitamin E might
    largely mitigate the effect of saturated fats.
    The benefits of getting also other tocopherols and tocotrienols besides
    alfa-tocopherol is noticed in some studies.

    Jan

  20. "Dunne E. Dawe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:59:59 -0500, "Larry Hoover"
    <[email hidden]> posted:

    Quoted message said:

    To my knowledge,
    there is no such diet, despite the "general wisdom" that a balanced diet
    (arbitrary
    and nebulous concept that it is) will meet all nutritional needs.

    I just looked up "balanced diet" in my dictionary, and it means the
    diet that you say is non-existent :-)
    That is a diet that supplies all dietary needs.

    That's petitio pricipii, begging the question. You have to already believe the
    premise to believe the conclusion itself.

    Just because something is often repeated does not make it correct.

    Lar

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