Re: UltraMarathon Man

Quoted message said:

I think Phil and I read a different book 😉 I found most of it to be a
humorous and inspirational book, with some interesting insights as to
why he does some of the things he does. I don't remember any comments
about him being ripped, but I'm sure there probably were a couple
describing body composition.

I respect the guy for what he's accomplished. Some really incredible stuff.
I think that when you're that great at something, it's hard to write in
first person singular without sounding like you're braging all the time.
The book would have been better if it was written by someone else.

Quoted message said:

I might add that his distance running is not noteworthy for the
distances themselves since there are races longer than that (and he
knows and acknowledges that elsewhere),

You'd think that somewhere in his book he'd mention the names of some of
the greatest ultra runners of all time, such as Ann Trason or Yiannis
Kouros. Nothing. Not a hint that there have even been others doing what he
does and then some. If he had, I would have liked him a little better and
would have been more likely to put up with his writing style.

--
Phil M.

Phil M. wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

I think Phil and I read a different book 😉

I'm starting to wonder about that. I checked the customer reviews on
Amazon. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't totally off base here.
http://tinyurl.com/aujyk
Although the book gets an overall 4 stars out of 5, the reviews that did
not like the book were suprisingly similar to my thoughts. It's amazing
that people can take away such different thoughts on the same book. Most
of the bad reviews say the same thing, mainly that the guy is incredibly
gifted, too boastful, wrong facts, and egotistical. I also subscribe to
the utra list (I think you do too). As you know from the comments on the
list, there are a lot of members that feel the same way.

Here are some quotes from some of the bad reviews. Maybe it was his
belittling of the Boston Marathon when comparing it to the Western States
100 that really got to me...
......snipped quotes from ultra list<

Disclaimer: I haven't read the book nor will I. Based on the comments cited
here and on previous discussions, it sounds to me like this guy really needs
therapy; either that or a bad injury or illness to humble him and put him
back into his place in the world. Not only does he not give credit to his
comtemporaries in *his* sport, he apparently trashes others in the related
sport of marathoning - which he doesn't have the stuff to win at.

Just a couple of books I've read about ultrarunning that I'd recommend are:

"Racing the Antelope", by Bernd Heinrich
This is a sort of autobiography of a guy who set a world record at 100km,
intervoven with a history of the evolution of running animals. I enjoyed the
book even though I found the diversions long-winded at times. But this set
up the eventual record race effort very well.

"The Ultimate Challenge: Running Ultra Marathons", by Walt Esser
This is a thin pretty basic book with a decent overview and good general
advice, though it lacks rigor in a number of ways.

I'll probably pick up David Horton's book about the AT and race across
america sometime this year.

-Tony

qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com said:

Quoted message said:

......snipped quotes from ultra list

These quotes were from Amazon reviews, not the ultra list. Sorry for the
confusion.

--
Phil M.

Phil M. said:

dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

I think Phil and I read a different book 😉

I'm starting to wonder about that. I checked the customer reviews on
Amazon. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't totally off base here.
http://tinyurl.com/aujyk
Although the book gets an overall 4 stars out of 5, the reviews that did
not like the book were suprisingly similar to my thoughts. It's amazing
that people can take away such different thoughts on the same book.

It's human nature. Why do some people like sprints, some like big city
marathons, and others like to go running through the woods alone for
hours? I think you're saying that most reviewers (80%, maybe?, dunno)
liked it, but the remainder didn't and there's probably some lukewarm.

There's other running groups that I've read where the posters are really
inspired about running by the book. Maybe the same spin that turned you
off, turned others on. The same thing that makes Boston exciting to some
is exactly the same thing that makes me not even want to consider it.
(screaming people is *not* a desirable characteristic for me; corralls
are for cattle, not people) I respect the distance, the race, and the
people that want to do it, but that doesn't mean it excites me. People
are different. Keep in mind, I'm one of those people that fell asleep
while watching one of the race scenes in Without Limits (I think that
was the name, about Pre), but thought the trail scenes were pretty good.

Most

Quoted message said:

of the bad reviews say the same thing, mainly that the guy is incredibly
gifted, too boastful, wrong facts, and egotistical. I also subscribe to
the utra list (I think you do too). As you know from the comments on the
list, there are a lot of members that feel the same way.

There were a few *posters* that felt that way. As you're aware from the
recent thread on lurkers, there are far more lurkers (maybe 1000 or so)
than regular posters (maybe 20) on the list. Once a negative thread gets
going, many people just hit "delete". Some of those lurkers
*do* post in other ultra groups (there's at least several I'm aware of),
and most of those posters in the other ultra/trail group I'm in (much
less formal) were apalled that runners could speak so negatively of
other runners and did not agree with the posters at all. As you spend
more time on the list, you'll be able to put the various comments in
context by who the posters are - same as here. Some of the ones that
raise hackles with some people, I find amusing - for a different
perspective to running and competition.

Quoted message said:

Here are some quotes from some of the bad reviews. Maybe it was his
belittling of the Boston Marathon when comparing it to the Western States
100 that really got to me...

p. 74. He calls you and all participants in Boston "elite".
"Like the Boston Marathon, the Western States only accepts the elite."

Then you bash him for belittling it? Or is this the hyperbole that you
were concerned about. I'm really confused.

As for the course comparison, I glanced over it (didn't spend any time
on it, since I've seen that in a bigger context of the mountain ultras,
not just WS100, and the details might be off) but the basic comparison
*is* valid. If you continue to read more ultra or trail stuff, you will
see the main factual comparison multiple times. I'm surprised you hadn't
run into it already since I had bumped into it within a year or so of
being here (before I'd ever heard of a Berlin marathon). Or maybe I'm
misunderstanding what you're saying "belittling" is?

Just mho, I try to respect all races and runners, but I will have to
admit there are runners and races that earn more of my respect than
others. The people that excite me are the ones that do the non-standard
things - the DK's, Blake Wood, Marshall Ulrich, Cave Dog, etc.

Just a different perspective, as I've noted many times in the past. I
don't expect anyone else here to agree with me.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Phil M. said:

Quoted message said:

I think Phil and I read a different book 😉 I found most of it to be a
humorous and inspirational book, with some interesting insights as to
why he does some of the things he does. I don't remember any comments
about him being ripped, but I'm sure there probably were a couple
describing body composition.

I respect the guy for what he's accomplished. Some really incredible stuff.
I think that when you're that great at something, it's hard to write in
first person singular without sounding like you're braging all the time.
The book would have been better if it was written by someone else.

I'm gonna disagree again, unless it's written in 1st person by a ghost
writer. I've seen it variously described as a memoir or autobiography.
Emotion and feelings come through better in 1st person - at least to me.
Maybe you find 3rd person writing more exciting, but even scientific
writing is shifting these days.

I'll admit I had a pre-conceived notion from reading his TR mag article
that he is an exciting writer and was looking forward to the book.

(For comparison as to what things excite me or don't, I fell asleep
watching one of the track races in the Without Limits DVD - found it in
bargain bin at Wal-Mart. But the trail seens were pretty cool. That's me
- and I'm probably the only one in this group with that perspective.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I might add that his distance running is not noteworthy for the
distances themselves since there are races longer than that (and he
knows and acknowledges that elsewhere),

You'd think that somewhere in his book he'd mention the names of some of
the greatest ultra runners of all time, such as Ann Trason or Yiannis
Kouros.

Why those two?

He *does* talk about Pete Athens, Shackleton, Amundsen, Scott,
Phedippedes, and others, iirc, including two Army Rangers that
introduced him to WS100.

I don't know how much time DK spends reading about ultras, rather than
just doing them, but I can easily imagine him never having heard of
Yiannis Kouros. Unless you're in the culture and the literature, many
running achievements are unknown. I have 1st hand experience with that.
I started running off and on in late 70s, but until I started reading
this group in 2001, I thought there were only a couple marathons in the
world. Boston was so huge, that I thought they let anybody in that
wanted to run. I know DK has tried to find some information on long
runs, but not sure where he looked.

The thing I find pretty extraordinary for someone who is billed as
"egotistical" - is his description of his first Badwater.
"Despite my greatest efforts, Badwater had pounded me into submission.
It was pure, unadulterated defeat."

But he doesn't describe how he learned, how he came back later, and
eventually won the race - which might have contributed significantly to
the book. In my mind, an egotistical person would have focused on the
win, not the "unadulterated defeat".

Different people see glasses as half full and others see them as half
empty. And so it shall always be.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Dot wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Phil M. wrote:
snip<

Quoted message said:

I respect the guy for what he's accomplished. Some really incredible

stuff.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think that when you're that great at something, it's hard to write in
first person singular without sounding like you're braging all the time.
The book would have been better if it was written by someone else.

I'm gonna disagree again, unless it's written in 1st person by a ghost
writer. I've seen it variously described as a memoir or autobiography.
Emotion and feelings come through better in 1st person - at least to me.
Maybe you find 3rd person writing more exciting, but even scientific
writing is shifting these days.

Generally speaking, I'd have to agree with Phil - autobiography is much
harder to pull off than biography. You just don't get the objectivity or
perspective, as very few people are capable of being truly honest with
themselves in private, let alone in public. When it comes to pure
storytelling it can work, but less so when it's a bunch of stories garnered
around a theme.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You'd think that somewhere in his book he'd mention the names of some of
the greatest ultra runners of all time, such as Ann Trason or Yiannis
Kouros.

Why those two?

He *does* talk about Pete Athens, Shackleton, Amundsen, Scott,
Phedippedes, and others, iirc, including two Army Rangers that
introduced him to WS100.

I don't know how much time DK spends reading about ultras, rather than
just doing them, but I can easily imagine him never having heard of
Yiannis Kouros. Unless you're in the culture and the literature, many
running achievements are unknown. I have 1st hand experience with that.
I started running off and on in late 70s, but until I started reading
this group in 2001, I thought there were only a couple marathons in the
world. Boston was so huge, that I thought they let anybody in that
wanted to run. I know DK has tried to find some information on long
runs, but not sure where he looked.

To me in the internet age it's inconcievable to me that a guy who's
interested in running 199 mile relays and then turning it into a 262 mile
"continuous" run wouldn't know about Kouros. If he doesn't know about
Kouros, then it's yet another illustration of an American who's ignorant of
the rest of the world. As for Ann, as you know, she's a legend with road
credentials as well as being extremely competative with the men on the 100m
trails.

I'm not saying he should have mentioned either of these runners, but if
you're going to be out there making claims about the first "non-stop" 262
mile run or whatever he characterized it as, then if you're a normal healthy
person you'll see what's been done before. You won't ignorantly claim to
have done something new (eg. the longest run without sleep).

Quoted message said:

The thing I find pretty extraordinary for someone who is billed as
"egotistical" - is his description of his first Badwater.
"Despite my greatest efforts, Badwater had pounded me into submission.
It was pure, unadulterated defeat."

But he doesn't describe how he learned, how he came back later, and
eventually won the race - which might have contributed significantly to
the book. In my mind, an egotistical person would have focused on the
win, not the "unadulterated defeat".

IMO, normally no amount of pounding on a person will change their character.
Dean is a sort of maverick in his own mind, and he has enough real
accomplishments to earn respect, but the style with which he conducts
himself is up for everyone to make judgements about his character. If he's
inspired some with his book that's fine, but frankly I can't get past the
title "Ultramarathon Man". If he put it in quotes and poked fun at himself
for using that nickname and pointed out that he has significant peers in the
ultramarathon world who have done extraordinary things, then that's the sort
of attitude that would celebrate the whole sport in a better way.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Dot said:

Quoted message said:

You'd think that somewhere in his book he'd mention the names of

some of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the greatest ultra runners of all time, such as Ann Trason or

Yiannis

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Kouros.

Why those two?

I dunno. Two of the greatest ultra runners of all time?

Quoted message said:

He *does* talk about Pete Athens, Shackleton, Amundsen, Scott,
Phedippedes, and others, iirc, including two Army Rangers that
introduced him to WS100.

Army Rangers? These people did not shape the future of ultra running to
the same extent as Trason and Kouros. My point was that the average
reader would assume that Karnazes is the first guy to do ultra runs of
199+ miles. He curiously leaves them out of his book.

Quoted message said:

I don't know how much time DK spends reading about ultras, rather

than

Quoted message said:

just doing them, but I can easily imagine him never having heard of
Yiannis Kouros. Unless you're in the culture and the literature, many

Quoted message said:

running achievements are unknown.

I'm not an author. But my guess is that you should know your subject.
If not, you need to do a little research. Even a *little* research
would make you aware of Kouros. What about Trason? IIRC, he even ran
with Trason for a good portion of one of the WS100s. Surely he knew who
she was. These people have *quietly* been running these extreme events
for years. They deserve his respect.

And comparing the Boston Marathon to the WS100 is ludicrous. Saying
that after 26 miles an ultra runner is just getting started. OK DK, you
run the first 26 miles of a 100-miler at a sub-5:00 pace and we'll see
how warmed up you are. Of course he doesn't mention the pace of the top
finishers of Boston or the top finishers of the WS100 when doing his
comparison.

Quoted message said:

The thing I find pretty extraordinary for someone who is billed as
"egotistical" - is his description of his first Badwater.
"Despite my greatest efforts, Badwater had pounded me into

submission.

Quoted message said:

It was pure, unadulterated defeat."

But he doesn't describe how he learned, how he came back later, and
eventually won the race - which might have contributed significantly

to

Quoted message said:

the book. In my mind, an egotistical person would have focused on the

Quoted message said:

win, not the "unadulterated defeat".

That's true. But most of the book reveals a self-serving attitude that
is counter to the attitude of an ultra runner.

You know, maybe Dean really is a nice guy and super dad in person. It's
his writing style that gets under my skin.

--
Phil M.

Tony said:

Disclaimer: I haven't read the book nor will I. Based on the comments cited
here and on previous discussions, it sounds to me like this guy really needs
therapy; either that or a bad injury or illness to humble him and put him
back into his place in the world.

Maybe some of the negative comments (see Amazon, or Phil's digest of it) will
help achieve just this -- that sort of feedback has gotta hurt. Doesn't have
to be everyone -- if there's a large group saying much the same thing, you'll
feel it. I mean his first reaction would be, "why are all those people saying
mean things about me ?" Since everything they're responding to is in print,
it's hard to pretend he didn't say things a certain way. All there, in black
and white. I wonder what review he'd give his own book a year from now ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Quoted message said:

You'd think that somewhere in his book he'd mention the names of some of
the greatest ultra runners of all time, such as Ann Trason or Yiannis
Kouros.

Why those two?

Because they're widely considered the greatest male and female ultra runners
of all time ?

Quoted message said:

He *does* talk about Pete Athens, Shackleton, Amundsen, Scott,
Phedippedes, and others, iirc, including two Army Rangers that
introduced him to WS100.

Sorry, you've lost me there. I thought the book was about ultra running, but
the above looks like a list of great explorers who went to Antartica.

Oh, I get it. These great explorers inspired DK to invent the sport of ultra
running.

Quoted message said:

I don't know how much time DK spends reading about ultras, rather than
just doing them, but I can easily imagine him never having heard of
Yiannis Kouros. Unless you're in the culture and the literature, many
running achievements are unknown.

I find it hard to see how he couldn't have heard of Ann Trason, since she
owned the WS100 for several years. I find it harder still to see how he could
embark on a venture to write a book and allow himself to be that ignorant.

Quoted message said:

I have 1st hand experience with that.
I started running off and on in late 70s, but until I started reading
this group in 2001, I thought there were only a couple marathons in the
world.

I know several recreational runners who are this ignorant or worse. I was one
of them. Some of them think any road race is a "marathon". One guy said "so
that's about 7:30 a mile ?" when I reluctantly admitted that my marathon time
was 2:58.

But that's OK -- we don't expect so much from hobbyists who run in relative
obscurity. I don't think anyone would argue that you should be required to
earn some sort of diploma just to take up running as a hobby.

However, we expect more of people who publish books on a subject.

Quoted message said:

The thing I find pretty extraordinary for someone who is billed as
"egotistical" - is his description of his first Badwater.

"Egocentric" at best. He seems to have little perspective of the fact that
there's a whole universe of ultra running outside of himself.

Quoted message said:

"Despite my greatest efforts, Badwater had pounded me into submission.
It was pure, unadulterated defeat."

But he doesn't describe how he learned, how he came back later, and
eventually won the race - which might have contributed significantly to
the book. In my mind, an egotistical person would have focused on the
win, not the "unadulterated defeat".

Another point of view is that getting his butt kicked by the race would be
more traumatic, because he really doesn't like to lose. It doesn't imply that
he's egotistical, but doesn't really contradict it either.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Phil M. said:

And comparing the Boston Marathon to the WS100 is ludicrous. Saying
that after 26 miles an ultra runner is just getting started. OK DK, you
run the first 26 miles of a 100-miler at a sub-5:00 pace and we'll see
how warmed up you are. Of course he doesn't mention the pace of the top
finishers of Boston or the top finishers of the WS100 when doing his
comparison.

You do know that at times, some folks are doing 6 minute miles at WS?
And I'm not talking the first few miles? I haven't seen the book, but as
for your criticism of the WS/Boston course profiles, that is a standard
reference in the ultra world and is used more to give a visual reference
to folks who just can't comprehend what 100 miles through the mountains
looks like. I mean even most marathoners quake at the mention of
Heartbreak Hill!

To see the profiles of some mountain 100s compared to Boston see:
http://run100s.com/profiles.htm

--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Because they're widely considered

you misspelled "wrongly". or was it "wildly"?

FWIW I never heard of Ann Thingy til I read this thread.

steve common said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Because they're widely considered

you misspelled "wrongly". or was it "wildly"?

Well, whatever. The point is that there's a whole world of ultra running
that's bigger than Karnazes, and he seems oblivious to it.

BTW, would you care to name a better female ultra runner than "Ann Thingy" ?

Quoted message said:

FWIW I never heard of Ann Thingy til I read this thread.

Most marathoners haven't heard of Khannouchi, Tergat, Radcliffe, Zatopek, Steve
Jones, Decastella, Derek Clayton, etc either.

But most people who write books on marathoning probably have.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

You do know that at times, some folks are doing 6 minute miles at WS?
And I'm not talking the first few miles?

Sure, but at Boston the are consistantly sub 5:00 miles for the whole
race. Look, I'm not taking anything away from those individuals that
train and race WS. I can only dream of having that sort of ability and
determination.

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the book,

You can read the beginning of it here, including some references to DK's
ripped sub 5% bodyfat ;-)

http://tinyurl.com/b3nqh

Quoted message said:

but as for your criticism of the WS/Boston course profiles, that is a
standard reference in the ultra world and is used more to give a
visual reference

I understand, but he needs to get it right. The Boston marathon starts
out at an elevation of 463 feet. On Dean's chart it looks like roughly
100 feet. Also, since 100/26.2 = 3.8, then why does it look like the
Boston marathon is 1/5 the length of the WS100? It seems that the chart
was doctored up to show a more extreme difference.

Quoted message said:

to folks who just can't comprehend what 100 miles through the mountains
looks like. I mean even most marathoners quake at the mention of
Heartbreak Hill!

I dunno. I think that after you run it, it is not such a big deal. In
this year's official program there was an in-depth article on the
topography of the Boston marathon. Here are the stats on Heartbreak Hill:

Bottom elevation: 148'
Top elevation: 236'
Length: 600 meters
Average grade: 4.5%
Steepest grade: 4.8%

Quoted message said:

To see the profiles of some mountain 100s compared to Boston see:
http://run100s.com/profiles.htm

Thanks. I'll check it out.

--
Phil M.

Quoted message said:

FWIW I never heard of Ann Thingy til I read this thread.

Some of Ann Trason's Word Records:

Road Events
100 km 7:00:48 Ann Trason (USA) Winschoten 9/16/95
40 mile 4:26:13 Ann Trason (USA) Houston 2/23/91
50 mile 5:40:18 Ann Trason (USA) Houston 2/23/91
100 mile 13:47:41 Ann Trason (USA) New York 5/4/91
12 Hour 144,840 meters Ann Trason (USA) New York 5/4/91

Track Events
100 mile 14:29:44 Ann Trason (USA) Santa Rosa 3/19/89
12 Hour 147,600 meters Ann Trason (USA) Hayward 8/4/91

--
Phil M.

Phil M. said:

Dot said:

Quoted message said:

You'd think that somewhere in his book he'd mention the names of

some of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the greatest ultra runners of all time, such as Ann Trason or

Yiannis

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Kouros.

Why those two?

I dunno. Two of the greatest ultra runners of all time?

True, Ann Trason has won WS 7 times, I think. But has Yiannis Kourus run
any of the races described in the book - WS100, South Pole, Badwater, or
the relay - or anything similar (he might, I don't know). Has he had any
contact with DK? I'll admit I don't know much about him or what kinds of
races he runs other than to know that he runs *really* long and many
(not all) are track or small loop courses. It's entirely possible he had
little or no influence on DK and hence am not surprised at not seeing
any mention.

But why not Roberto Ghidoni, Tim Tweitemeyer, Pam Reed, David Horton,
Monica Scholz, Blake Wood, or Matt Carpenter? - and I'm sure others can
come up with a ton more that might be more relevant to the races and
might have had some influence on DK. I know he runs with TT, and it was
Tweitemeyer who talked him into the WS100 winter run, so the lack of
reference to him was a little puzzling. I'm not saying that Ann Trason
or Yiannis Kourus aren't great runners, but in an autobiography, *I*
would expect mention of the people that influenced the author - parents,
sister, hs coaches (both good and bad).

These runners have either run the races described, run long in cold
conditions, run long in non-standard runs, or run lots of elevation.
Blake Wood has got to be one of the most balanced runners I've ever read
about - track, road, ultras, formal courses, Badwater to Whitney via
trails, rogaining, gets kids involved in ultras by using them as pacers,
etc. And Monica is equally incredible in the breadth of her running -
both Su100 and BW135, but I think in different years.

My point is in an autobiography, a writer would be focused on the races
he does and/or the people that have influenced him. And he does -
including his cross-country (positive influence) and track (negative
influence) coaches, RD's, parents, sister, etc.

How many people here list the winners of races or the course record
holders in their race reports? Very few - because it's a report on
*their* race, not the history of that race. I think he gives more credit
to people like volunteers and RD's than you realize - and they are
*some* of the people that shape ultrarunning. No RD's and volunteers, no
formal races. WS100 has over 3 volunteers per runner, although he didn't
mention that.

In a book entitled "Ultramarathon man: Confessions of an all-night
runner", *I* would expect a book about a person that runs long
distances, esp. since it's billed as an autobiography. I would expect
discussions about the races or long runs / adventures he did - and maybe
some significant participants, but not necessarily. That could be
perceived as name dropping.

If I wanted a book on ultrarunning or the history of ultrarunning, I'd
start with "A step beyond: The definitive guide to ultraunning" (edited
by Don Allison) since the title sounds like it's about ultrarunning. Or
I'd subscribe to a magazine called Ultrarunning. (I have both.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He *does* talk about Pete Athens, Shackleton, Amundsen, Scott,
Phedippedes, and others, iirc, including two Army Rangers that
introduced him to WS100.

Quoted message said:

Army Rangers? These people did not shape the future of ultra running to
the same extent as Trason and Kouros.

But they did influence Dean Karnazes' running future - and the book is
an autobiography. That's how he found out that WS100 even existed.
Again, you might want to read A Step Beyond. What does it mean to "shape
the future of ultra running"? There's a *lot* of people giving diversity
to the sport, so I'm not sure what "shaping" it means.

The South Pole references, esp. Shackleton, are significant as
Shackleton's feat is sometimes considered one of the great endurance
efforts ever. Books about Shackleton almost always come up on ultra
reading lists - at least the ones I've seen.

To DK, running is an adventure - doing things that look challenging.
Hence, the Antarctic and Everest references. And if no one has bothered
to setup a formal race and act as RD and all the other stuff, he doesn't
let that bother him. He just does it. I know some people here don't care
for that kind of independent thinking, but it's the kind of thing that
inspires me and is very popular up here.

Quoted message said:

I'm not an author. But my guess is that you should know your subject.

His subject is *himself* - it's an autobiography, and a short one at that.

[As a side note, be happy he didn't write it at 19 and try to get a film
made. This year, there was a "legally blind" 19-yr lady who wanted to be
the first "legally-blind" person to run the Iditarod and write a book
and have a film made. Her father had DVD's with info ready for the
press. She didn't finish, but she did a commendable job for over 700
miles, but messed up on the dog's nutrition, as I understand it.]

Quoted message said:

These people have *quietly* been running these extreme events
for years. They deserve his respect.

And I'm sure he does respect them - if he's heard of them. But of the
1000s of ultrarunners out there, which ones do you put in your
autobiography? If I were writing an autobiography (don't worry,
absolutely no plans), I would focus on the people (personal contact or
not) that influenced me. That would include people like Roberto Ghidoni
and Cave Dog, a couple people here, etc. YK cranks out miles, but he
doesn't crank out adventure that I've heard about, and to many people,
running is adventure, it's not just about miles in formal races. I know
that's where I differ from 90% of the posters on this group - and
probably why my opinion of the book differs from a few people here.

Speed and inspiration are two different things.

Thanks for encouraging me to re-read the book looking for some things. I
enjoyed the book the 1st time but didn't intend to re-read it since I've
got lots of other things to read, including one of Bernd Heinrich's
other books. I was surprised how hard I laughed at some scenes, even the
2nd time through. And I did see the hyperbole the 2nd time through, but
I'm not sure we're seeing the same things as hyperbole.

I sorta wondered about something when I read it the 1st time, and I
wonder if Trailrunner hit on something. Who is the intended audience? Is
it general public, runners, or ultrarunners, or ...? The types of
explanations he uses, as TR pointed out, are the fairly standard ones
used to explain distances and elevation changes to non-runners. That
would explain a lot of things.

Maybe he should've titled the book "Karno", then I discovered that
name's already in use. Oh, well.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

steve common said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Because they're widely considered

you misspelled "wrongly". or was it "wildly"?

FWIW I never heard of Ann Thingy til I read this thread.

Steve, for curiosity, have you heard of Monica Scholz (Canadian) or
Roberto Ghidoni? I was just wondering how much of what we see in US
appears on your radar. Ghidoni is Italian, but the race he's known for
is Alaskan.

I like the international flavor you and Anders bring to the North
American-centric group 😉

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

He *does* talk about Pete Athens, Shackleton, Amundsen, Scott,
Phedippedes, and others, iirc, including two Army Rangers that
introduced him to WS100.

Sorry, you've lost me there. I thought the book was about ultra running, but
the above looks like a list of great explorers who went to Antartica.

Oh, I get it. These great explorers inspired DK to invent the sport of ultra
running.

d.r., dot already made this point in a reply, but i'll risk reiterating-
have you read "south", and if so, are you surprised that it would
inspire someone who wanted to challenge themselves in a difficult
landscape? it's been awhile since i read it, but afaicr: after watching
their ship being destroyed by ice and living on a barren island with
nothing but limpet "soup" to eat with a few albatross chicks that they
say they felt guilty over eating, they make a "ship" out of i think it
was their life boat, cross the open sea to the nearest inhabited island
they can find. they have to land on the wrong side for some reason, and
so have to cross inland over the mountains with no equipment and no
trail. just this last part would overwhelm most anyone today, but to
them, it was like "yay, all we have to do is trek thru this wilderness
and not fall to our deaths crossing a pass, and we'll be saved!! we've
done it!!"

maybe it's looking at ultra running from the perspective of wanting to
finish and survive and to bring oneself to the edge instead of looking
at it as a competition to be won?? i haven't even read the ultrarunning
book and your post makes a good point that an author should know his
subject. but it's fun to argue with you because i know you'll manage to
get the upper hand, but i can never figure out how beforehand.

h

h squared said:

d.r., dot already made this point in a reply, but i'll risk reiterating-
have you read "south", and if so, are you surprised that it would
inspire someone who wanted to challenge themselves in a difficult
landscape?

I understand how that could inspire someone to take up ultra running. But
that's beside the point, which is that there is a whole world of ultra running
that he seems more or less oblivious to (e.g. claiming that 262 miles without
sleeping is unprecedented)

His predecessors are other ultra runners, not antarctic explorers. To suggest
otherwise makes it sound like he's a pioneer of the sport, which he isn't.

Quoted message said:

maybe it's looking at ultra running from the perspective of wanting to
finish and survive and to bring oneself to the edge instead of looking
at it as a competition to be won??

No, I view it more in terms of giving due respect to ones peers and
predecessors. It's like a cover band that plays 80s hard rock tunes citing
Mozart and Beethoven as their main influences. It's fine for them to say that
hearing Mozart and Beethoven inspired them to learn to play instruments. It's
another to pretend that they have no other predecessors or peers worthy of
mention.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

I understand how that could inspire someone to take up ultra running. But
that's beside the point, which is that there is a whole world of ultra running
that he seems more or less oblivious to (e.g. claiming that 262 miles without
sleeping is unprecedented)

claiming a "record" that isn't his (if he does- remember, i haven't read
it) is wrong, i agree.

Quoted message said:

His predecessors are other ultra runners, not antarctic explorers.

why can't they be both? the dude supposedly did go running in the
antarctic after all.

To suggest

Quoted message said:

otherwise makes it sound like he's a pioneer of the sport, which he isn't.

ah. this is the point that i missed, thanks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

maybe it's looking at ultra running from the perspective of wanting to
finish and survive and to bring oneself to the edge instead of looking
at it as a competition to be won??

No, I view it more in terms of giving due respect to ones peers and
predecessors. It's like a cover band that plays 80s hard rock tunes citing
Mozart and Beethoven as their main influences. It's fine for them to say that
hearing Mozart and Beethoven inspired them to learn to play instruments. It's
another to pretend that they have no other predecessors or peers worthy of
mention.

my point was that what he finds inspiring *may* be the wanting to "go to
the edge" and therefore i wouldn't be surprised to find him talking
about shackleton the way you seemed to be. please don't read that as an
excuse for not "giving due respect to ones peers and predecessors". now
that i get the bit about the implication by omission, i understand why
you were complaining about it.

h