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Re: The [censored] Parade

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
14 July 2004
Last activity
20 August 2004
Original author
Robert
Posts
238
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  1. "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Phil Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message o.

    Quoted message said:

    That explains a lot...even leaking over into other fields.

    Phil Scott

    Hey Phil, imagine this scenario:
    A man gets diagnosed with a fatal cancer and is told he has no hope with
    that diagnosis. He looks near and far for the most prominent world expert
    with that particular malignancy and goes around the world to see him. After
    the consultation the doctor tells him that the only last hope for him is an
    experimental drug manufactured by Merck in which he is currently doing a
    clinical trial on. The man becomes distraught and shouts out, "You Drug
    [censored]", and walks out.
    LOLL, never happen.

    Do you have even one example of a drug that fits the bill as you
    described above? How many times do we hear about these esoteric
    experimental drug that will save the world? Yet, no one is being cured
    of anything. Everyone is getting sicker, taking more pills and *no
    one* is getting "cured".

    That line of logic is pretty pathetic when contrasted with the
    reality.

    TC

  2. (tcomeau) said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Phil Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message o.

    Quoted message said:

    That explains a lot...even leaking over into other fields.

    Phil Scott

    Hey Phil, imagine this scenario:
    A man gets diagnosed with a fatal cancer and is told he has no hope with
    that diagnosis. He looks near and far for the most prominent world expert
    with that particular malignancy and goes around the world to see him. After
    the consultation the doctor tells him that the only last hope for him is an
    experimental drug manufactured by Merck in which he is currently doing a
    clinical trial on. The man becomes distraught and shouts out, "You Drug
    [censored]", and walks out.
    LOLL, never happen.

    Do you have even one example of a drug that fits the bill as you
    described above? How many times do we hear about these esoteric
    experimental drug that will save the world? Yet, no one is being cured
    of anything. Everyone is getting sicker, taking more pills and *no
    one* is getting "cured".

    "No one is being cured of anything."

    Polio vaccine.
    Measles vaccine(still the greatest single cause of death among
    children in Asia and the Pacific (700,000+) because of poor
    immunization)
    Hepatitis B vaccine.

    These three alone have saved hundreds of thousands of lives worldwide.

    Quoted message said:

    That line of logic is pretty pathetic when contrasted with the
    reality.

    TC

    I guess that depends on what your version of reality is....

    L.

  3. All new drugs start off in clinical studies in a few so it is impossible to
    have it any other way. The new drug which is produced by a drug manufacturer
    is NOT available to everybody but only under the control of the clinical
    investigator. So everything I have said is completely true. The only bizarre
    action would be the one clowns like you are advocating. You know nothing
    about medicine. How many people have you treated? Where did you get your
    medical education? You are a clown in training.

    "tcomeau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Phil Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message o.

    Quoted message said:

    That explains a lot...even leaking over into other fields.

    Phil Scott

    Hey Phil, imagine this scenario:
    A man gets diagnosed with a fatal cancer and is told he has no hope with
    that diagnosis. He looks near and far for the most prominent world


    expert

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    with that particular malignancy and goes around the world to see him.


    After

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the consultation the doctor tells him that the only last hope for him is


    an

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    experimental drug manufactured by Merck in which he is currently doing a
    clinical trial on. The man becomes distraught and shouts out, "You Drug
    [censored]", and walks out.
    LOLL, never happen.

    Do you have even one example of a drug that fits the bill as you
    described above? How many times do we hear about these esoteric
    experimental drug that will save the world? Yet, no one is being cured
    of anything. Everyone is getting sicker, taking more pills and *no
    one* is getting "cured".

    That line of logic is pretty pathetic when contrasted with the
    reality.

    TC

  4. "Pumbaa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    What about the 700,000+ deaths due to LACK OF measles vaccine. Is this


    due

    Quoted message said:

    to the high cost of the vaccine, the impossibility of making enough


    vaccine,

    You can thank your friends like Zee who complain about the vaccine side
    effects and the cost of lawsuits.

    Quoted message said:

    or the crappy third world governments that often don't seem to care about
    their children? Maybe the governments figure their children will just grow
    up and die of AIDS anyway, so why bother to protect them against measles.

    Because my friend there is only so much money they have to spend and it must
    deal with real life issues on which priority to put the money in first. Try
    clean water, food and sanitation.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    These three alone have saved hundreds of thousands of lives worldwide.

    Quoted message said:

    "No one is being cured of anything."

    Polio vaccine.
    Measles vaccine(still the greatest single cause of death among
    children in Asia and the Pacific (700,000+) because of poor
    immunization)
    Hepatitis B vaccine.

    Quoted message said:

    That line of logic is pretty pathetic when contrasted with the
    reality.

    TC

    I guess that depends on what your version of reality is....

  5. Quoted message said:

    Yep, but although vaccines prevent diseases they don't _cure_ anything.
    Besides, vaccines are rarely if ever developed by the big pharma. Polio
    vaccine research for example was mostly funded by voluntary donations from
    North_American citizen. The bulk of donations came from the March of


    Dimes,

    Quoted message said:

    a grassroots organization founded with the help of President Roosevelt
    (<URL:http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/polio.html>😉.

    Vaccines for hepatitis A and B (Havrix, Engerix-B, etc.) are manufactured by
    GlaxoSmithKline. Merck also makes a hepatitis B vaccine, the varicella
    vaccine (Varivax), and a pediatric meningitis vaccine (Menjugate). Wyeth
    makes a pediatric pneumococcal vaccine (Prevnar). If these boys aren't "big
    pharma", I don't know what is.

    "Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:31:54 -0400 in article

    Quoted message said:
    (tcomeau) said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > "Phil Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message o.
    > >
    > >
    > > That explains a lot...even leaking over into other fields.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Phil Scott
    >
    > Hey Phil, imagine this scenario:
    > A man gets diagnosed with a fatal cancer and is told he has no hope


    with

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > that diagnosis. He looks near and far for the most prominent world


    expert

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > with that particular malignancy and goes around the world to see him.


    After

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > the consultation the doctor tells him that the only last hope for him


    is an

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > experimental drug manufactured by Merck in which he is currently doing


    a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > clinical trial on. The man becomes distraught and shouts out, "You


    Drug

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > [censored]", and walks out.
    > LOLL, never happen.

    Do you have even one example of a drug that fits the bill as you
    described above? How many times do we hear about these esoteric
    experimental drug that will save the world? Yet, no one is being cured
    of anything. Everyone is getting sicker, taking more pills and *no
    one* is getting "cured".

    "No one is being cured of anything."

    Polio vaccine.
    Measles vaccine(still the greatest single cause of death among
    children in Asia and the Pacific (700,000+) because of poor
    immunization)
    Hepatitis B vaccine.

    These three alone have saved hundreds of thousands of lives worldwide.

    --
    Matti Narkia

  6. Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:50:05 GMT in article
    <[email hidden]> "Gregory Poon"

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yep, but although vaccines prevent diseases they don't _cure_ anything.
    Besides, vaccines are rarely if ever developed by the big pharma. Polio
    vaccine research for example was mostly funded by voluntary donations from
    North_American citizen. The bulk of donations came from the March of


    Dimes,

    Quoted message said:

    a grassroots organization founded with the help of President Roosevelt
    (<URL:http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/polio.html>😉.

    Vaccines for hepatitis A and B (Havrix, Engerix-B, etc.) are manufactured by
    GlaxoSmithKline. Merck also makes a hepatitis B vaccine, the varicella
    vaccine (Varivax), and a pediatric meningitis vaccine (Menjugate). Wyeth
    makes a pediatric pneumococcal vaccine (Prevnar). If these boys aren't "big
    pharma", I don't know what is.


    Practically all drugs are _manufactured_ by big pharma, that was not an
    issue. The question is where were they invented, who made the innovation and
    basic research? Most of the major inventions originate from publicly funded
    research or small bio-tech companies. Big pharma then buys patents/licences
    and starts manufacturing and marketing.

    --
    Matti Narkia

  7. Pharmaceutical companies, in the United States, don't make drugs that
    cure anything. If they did, they would go out of business, and that
    is not their goal. They are "for profit" firms and they want to make
    as much money as possible. All they want to do is make drugs that
    treat the symptoms instead of the causes. That way people with those
    symptoms will have to buy those drugs for the rest of their lives,
    instead of being cured.

    Take a look at acid reflux, for instance. I went on a low carb diet
    two years ago and haven't had one instance of acid reflux since then.
    I am not alone, just check any low carb newsgroup and, if you took a
    survey, you will find almost 100 percent cure for acid reflux.

    (tcomeau) said:


    Do you have even one example of a drug that fits the bill as you
    described above? How many times do we hear about these esoteric
    experimental drug that will save the world? Yet, no one is being cured
    of anything. Everyone is getting sicker, taking more pills and *no
    one* is getting "cured".

    That line of logic is pretty pathetic when contrasted with the
    reality.

    TC

  8. Quoted message said:

    Practically all drugs are _manufactured_ by big pharma, that was not an
    issue. The question is where were they invented, who made the innovation


    and

    Quoted message said:

    basic research? Most of the major inventions originate from publicly


    funded

    Quoted message said:

    research or small bio-tech companies. Big pharma then buys


    patents/licences

    Quoted message said:

    and starts manufacturing and marketing.

    There seems to be widespread impression that big pharma does not do "real"
    drug research. Most of work required to bring a drug substance to the
    public is in fact done or funded by the manufacturer -- toxicology,
    pharmaceutics, pharmcokinetics, clinical trials, pharmacoeconomics, etc.
    Publiclly funded research in these aspects actually plays only a minor role,
    if only because the amount of money and organization required just don't
    exist in university research labs. So if academic research were to
    transcend to clinical applications, partnership (or whichever you choose to
    call it) with the pharmaceutical industry is essential. Insulin is probably
    the only notable example to date where the development of the drug can be
    attributed primarily to publiclly funded research (at the University of
    Toronto in the 1920's). And no, I don't work for a pharmaceutical company,
    but I do work at the U of T, so my plugging for insulin may be
    understandable.

    Going back to the vaccines, you are quite right that the manufacturers
    aren't always the original developer, although Pasteur (even before it
    becoming part of Aventis) which makes *a lot* of vaccines certainly
    qualifies as "big pharma". But even the developers are no small peanuts
    even if they are not as well known to us North Americans. Oka, which
    developed the varicella vaccine for GSK, is a healthy sized company in
    Japan. Chiron, which developed Menjugate (and comarkets it with Merck), is
    quite the multinational company HQ'ed in California. And this is a global
    phenomenon -- the Netherlands is as far as I know the only country in the
    world which has decided that the government should monopolize the country's
    vaccine supply and has set up the Netherlands Vaccine Institute.

    The thing that seems to elude people is that for all the scandals (true or
    not) big pharma is essential for bringing useful drugs to the public. Pills
    aren't just nice packages of chemicals -- it takes a lot of know-how,
    science, and grunt research (and correspondingly $$$) to make them work.

    Ok, 'nuff of this.

    "Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:50:05 GMT in article
    <[email hidden]> "Gregory Poon"

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yep, but although vaccines prevent diseases they don't _cure_ anything.
    Besides, vaccines are rarely if ever developed by the big pharma. Polio
    vaccine research for example was mostly funded by voluntary donations


    from

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    North_American citizen. The bulk of donations came from the March of


    Dimes,

    Quoted message said:

    a grassroots organization founded with the help of President Roosevelt
    (<URL:http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/polio.html>😉.

    Vaccines for hepatitis A and B (Havrix, Engerix-B, etc.) are manufactured


    by

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    GlaxoSmithKline. Merck also makes a hepatitis B vaccine, the varicella
    vaccine (Varivax), and a pediatric meningitis vaccine (Menjugate). Wyeth
    makes a pediatric pneumococcal vaccine (Prevnar). If these boys aren't


    "big

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    pharma", I don't know what is.


    Practically all drugs are _manufactured_ by big pharma, that was not an
    issue. The question is where were they invented, who made the innovation


    and

    Quoted message said:

    basic research? Most of the major inventions originate from publicly


    funded

    Quoted message said:

    research or small bio-tech companies. Big pharma then buys


    patents/licences

    Quoted message said:

    and starts manufacturing and marketing.

    --
    Matti Narkia

  9. On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:48:29 GMT, "Gregory Poon" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Practically all drugs are _manufactured_ by big pharma, that was not an
    issue. The question is where were they invented, who made the innovation


    and

    Quoted message said:

    basic research? Most of the major inventions originate from publicly


    funded

    Quoted message said:

    research or small bio-tech companies. Big pharma then buys


    patents/licences

    Quoted message said:

    and starts manufacturing and marketing.

    There seems to be widespread impression that big pharma does not do "real"
    drug research. Most of work required to bring a drug substance to the
    public is in fact done or funded by the manufacturer -- toxicology,
    pharmaceutics, pharmcokinetics, clinical trials, pharmacoeconomics, etc.
    Publiclly funded research in these aspects actually plays only a minor role,
    if only because the amount of money and organization required just don't
    exist in university research labs. So if academic research were to
    transcend to clinical applications, partnership (or whichever you choose to
    call it) with the pharmaceutical industry is essential. Insulin is probably
    the only notable example to date where the development of the drug can be
    attributed primarily to publiclly funded research (at the University of
    Toronto in the 1920's). And no, I don't work for a pharmaceutical company,
    but I do work at the U of T, so my plugging for insulin may be
    understandable.

    Going back to the vaccines, you are quite right that the manufacturers
    aren't always the original developer, although Pasteur (even before it
    becoming part of Aventis) which makes *a lot* of vaccines certainly
    qualifies as "big pharma". But even the developers are no small peanuts
    even if they are not as well known to us North Americans. Oka, which
    developed the varicella vaccine for GSK, is a healthy sized company in
    Japan. Chiron, which developed Menjugate (and comarkets it with Merck), is
    quite the multinational company HQ'ed in California. And this is a global
    phenomenon -- the Netherlands is as far as I know the only country in the
    world which has decided that the government should monopolize the country's
    vaccine supply and has set up the Netherlands Vaccine Institute.

    The thing that seems to elude people is that for all the scandals (true or
    not) big pharma is essential for bringing useful drugs to the public. Pills
    aren't just nice packages of chemicals -- it takes a lot of know-how,
    science, and grunt research (and correspondingly $$$) to make them work.

    Ok, 'nuff of this.

    Thanks. Interesting comments.

    For some "useful drugs" is an oxymoron.

    L.

    Quoted message said:

    "Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:50:05 GMT in article
    <[email hidden]> "Gregory Poon"

    Quoted message said:

    > Yep, but although vaccines prevent diseases they don't _cure_ anything.
    > Besides, vaccines are rarely if ever developed by the big pharma. Polio
    > vaccine research for example was mostly funded by voluntary donations


    from

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > North_American citizen. The bulk of donations came from the March of
    Dimes,
    > a grassroots organization founded with the help of President Roosevelt
    > (<URL:http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/polio.html>😉.

    Vaccines for hepatitis A and B (Havrix, Engerix-B, etc.) are manufactured


    by

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    GlaxoSmithKline. Merck also makes a hepatitis B vaccine, the varicella
    vaccine (Varivax), and a pediatric meningitis vaccine (Menjugate). Wyeth
    makes a pediatric pneumococcal vaccine (Prevnar). If these boys aren't


    "big

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    pharma", I don't know what is.


    Practically all drugs are _manufactured_ by big pharma, that was not an
    issue. The question is where were they invented, who made the innovation


    and

    Quoted message said:

    basic research? Most of the major inventions originate from publicly


    funded

    Quoted message said:

    research or small bio-tech companies. Big pharma then buys


    patents/licences

    Quoted message said:

    and starts manufacturing and marketing.

    --
    Matti Narkia


  10. [email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    (tcomeau) said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Phil Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message o.
    >
    >
    > That explains a lot...even leaking over into other fields.
    >
    >
    >
    > Phil Scott

    Hey Phil, imagine this scenario:
    A man gets diagnosed with a fatal cancer and is told he has no hope with
    that diagnosis. He looks near and far for the most prominent world expert
    with that particular malignancy and goes around the world to see him. After
    the consultation the doctor tells him that the only last hope for him is an
    experimental drug manufactured by Merck in which he is currently doing a
    clinical trial on. The man becomes distraught and shouts out, "You Drug
    [censored]", and walks out.
    LOLL, never happen.

    Do you have even one example of a drug that fits the bill as you
    described above? How many times do we hear about these esoteric
    experimental drug that will save the world? Yet, no one is being cured
    of anything. Everyone is getting sicker, taking more pills and *no
    one* is getting "cured".

    "No one is being cured of anything."

    Polio vaccine.
    Measles vaccine(still the greatest single cause of death among
    children in Asia and the Pacific (700,000+) because of poor
    immunization)
    Hepatitis B vaccine.

    These three alone have saved hundreds of thousands of lives worldwide.

    Quoted message said:

    That line of logic is pretty pathetic when contrasted with the
    reality.

    TC

    I guess that depends on what your version of reality is....

    L.

    Ok, let me re-phrase the question.

    Do you have even one example of a drug, developed in the last 40
    years, that fits the bill as you described above?

    Huh?

    TC

  11. Name me one major truly lifesaving drug (not a vaccine) developed in
    the last 50 years.

    TC

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    All new drugs start off in clinical studies in a few so it is impossible to
    have it any other way. The new drug which is produced by a drug manufacturer
    is NOT available to everybody but only under the control of the clinical
    investigator. So everything I have said is completely true. The only bizarre
    action would be the one clowns like you are advocating. You know nothing
    about medicine. How many people have you treated? Where did you get your
    medical education? You are a clown in training.

    "tcomeau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Phil Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message o.
    >
    >
    > That explains a lot...even leaking over into other fields.
    >
    >
    >
    > Phil Scott

    Hey Phil, imagine this scenario:
    A man gets diagnosed with a fatal cancer and is told he has no hope with
    that diagnosis. He looks near and far for the most prominent world


    expert

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    with that particular malignancy and goes around the world to see him.


    After

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the consultation the doctor tells him that the only last hope for him is


    an

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    experimental drug manufactured by Merck in which he is currently doing a
    clinical trial on. The man becomes distraught and shouts out, "You Drug
    [censored]", and walks out.
    LOLL, never happen.

    Do you have even one example of a drug that fits the bill as you
    described above? How many times do we hear about these esoteric
    experimental drug that will save the world? Yet, no one is being cured
    of anything. Everyone is getting sicker, taking more pills and *no
    one* is getting "cured".

    That line of logic is pretty pathetic when contrasted with the
    reality.

    TC

  12. "Gregory Poon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Do you have even one example of a drug that fits the bill as you
    described above? How many times do we hear about these esoteric
    experimental drug that will save the world? Yet, no one is being cured
    of anything. Everyone is getting sicker, taking more pills and *no
    one* is getting "cured".

    That line of logic is pretty pathetic when contrasted with the
    reality.

    We could, with *this* line of logic, just stop taking any pills,
    collectively bankcrupt the pharmaceutical industry, and see what happens.
    Will we be less sick then?

    In combination with proper nutrition, very likely.

    TC

  13. I agree with everything you said Greg. The one thing that is missing is an
    AIDs vaccine. Dr Salk was working on one until he died. Sooner or later they
    will come up with one. It takes much resources to do so and the only way
    things get done is with money generated by the profit of past drugs and in
    the hope of profits for a new drug and or vaccine. Those are business
    decisions made all the time. To say it doesn't exist is silly.

    "Gregory Poon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Practically all drugs are _manufactured_ by big pharma, that was not an
    issue. The question is where were they invented, who made the innovation


    and

    Quoted message said:

    basic research? Most of the major inventions originate from publicly


    funded

    Quoted message said:

    research or small bio-tech companies. Big pharma then buys


    patents/licences

    Quoted message said:

    and starts manufacturing and marketing.

    There seems to be widespread impression that big pharma does not do "real"
    drug research. Most of work required to bring a drug substance to the
    public is in fact done or funded by the manufacturer -- toxicology,
    pharmaceutics, pharmcokinetics, clinical trials, pharmacoeconomics, etc.
    Publiclly funded research in these aspects actually plays only a minor


    role,

    Quoted message said:

    if only because the amount of money and organization required just don't
    exist in university research labs. So if academic research were to
    transcend to clinical applications, partnership (or whichever you choose


    to

    Quoted message said:

    call it) with the pharmaceutical industry is essential. Insulin is


    probably

    Quoted message said:

    the only notable example to date where the development of the drug can be
    attributed primarily to publiclly funded research (at the University of
    Toronto in the 1920's). And no, I don't work for a pharmaceutical


    company,

    Quoted message said:

    but I do work at the U of T, so my plugging for insulin may be
    understandable.

    Going back to the vaccines, you are quite right that the manufacturers
    aren't always the original developer, although Pasteur (even before it
    becoming part of Aventis) which makes *a lot* of vaccines certainly
    qualifies as "big pharma". But even the developers are no small peanuts
    even if they are not as well known to us North Americans. Oka, which
    developed the varicella vaccine for GSK, is a healthy sized company in
    Japan. Chiron, which developed Menjugate (and comarkets it with Merck),


    is

    Quoted message said:

    quite the multinational company HQ'ed in California. And this is a global
    phenomenon -- the Netherlands is as far as I know the only country in the
    world which has decided that the government should monopolize the


    country's

    Quoted message said:

    vaccine supply and has set up the Netherlands Vaccine Institute.

    The thing that seems to elude people is that for all the scandals (true or
    not) big pharma is essential for bringing useful drugs to the public.


    Pills

    Quoted message said:

    aren't just nice packages of chemicals -- it takes a lot of know-how,
    science, and grunt research (and correspondingly $$$) to make them work.

    Ok, 'nuff of this.

    "Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:50:05 GMT in article
    <[email hidden]> "Gregory Poon"

    Quoted message said:

    > Yep, but although vaccines prevent diseases they don't _cure_


    anything.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Besides, vaccines are rarely if ever developed by the big pharma.


    Polio

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > vaccine research for example was mostly funded by voluntary donations


    from

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > North_American citizen. The bulk of donations came from the March of
    Dimes,
    > a grassroots organization founded with the help of President


    Roosevelt

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > (<URL:http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/polio.html>😉.

    Vaccines for hepatitis A and B (Havrix, Engerix-B, etc.) are


    manufactured

    Quoted message said:

    by

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    GlaxoSmithKline. Merck also makes a hepatitis B vaccine, the varicella
    vaccine (Varivax), and a pediatric meningitis vaccine (Menjugate).


    Wyeth

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    makes a pediatric pneumococcal vaccine (Prevnar). If these boys aren't


    "big

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    pharma", I don't know what is.


    Practically all drugs are _manufactured_ by big pharma, that was not an
    issue. The question is where were they invented, who made the innovation


    and

    Quoted message said:

    basic research? Most of the major inventions originate from publicly


    funded

    Quoted message said:

    research or small bio-tech companies. Big pharma then buys


    patents/licences

    Quoted message said:

    and starts manufacturing and marketing.

    --
    Matti Narkia

  14. "tcomeau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    (tcomeau) said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > "Phil Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message o.
    > >
    > >
    > > That explains a lot...even leaking over into other fields.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Phil Scott
    >
    > Hey Phil, imagine this scenario:
    > A man gets diagnosed with a fatal cancer and is told he has no hope


    with

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > that diagnosis. He looks near and far for the most prominent world


    expert

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > with that particular malignancy and goes around the world to see him.


    After

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > the consultation the doctor tells him that the only last hope for him


    is an

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > experimental drug manufactured by Merck in which he is currently


    doing a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > clinical trial on. The man becomes distraught and shouts out, "You


    Drug

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > [censored]", and walks out.
    > LOLL, never happen.

    Do you have even one example of a drug that fits the bill as you
    described above? How many times do we hear about these esoteric
    experimental drug that will save the world? Yet, no one is being cured
    of anything. Everyone is getting sicker, taking more pills and *no
    one* is getting "cured".

    "No one is being cured of anything."

    Polio vaccine.
    Measles vaccine(still the greatest single cause of death among
    children in Asia and the Pacific (700,000+) because of poor
    immunization)
    Hepatitis B vaccine.

    These three alone have saved hundreds of thousands of lives worldwide.

    Quoted message said:

    That line of logic is pretty pathetic when contrasted with the
    reality.

    TC

    I guess that depends on what your version of reality is....

    L.

    Ok, let me re-phrase the question.

    Do you have even one example of a drug, developed in the last 40
    years, that fits the bill as you described above?

    Huh?

    TC

    There is in clinical trials right now where synthetic blood ie hemoglobin is
    being infused in the field in massive blood loss traumas. This chemical has
    a shelf life of years and does not require refrigeration compared to actual
    blood. Here is the clincher. Since these people are out cold because of the
    trauma they will not be asked if they want to be involved in research or
    not. They will not have informed signed consent. How do you like them
    apples? They have no choice.

  15. "tcomeau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Gregory Poon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Do you have even one example of a drug that fits the bill as you
    described above? How many times do we hear about these esoteric
    experimental drug that will save the world? Yet, no one is being cured
    of anything. Everyone is getting sicker, taking more pills and *no
    one* is getting "cured".

    That line of logic is pretty pathetic when contrasted with the
    reality.

    We could, with *this* line of logic, just stop taking any pills,
    collectively bankcrupt the pharmaceutical industry, and see what


    happens.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Will we be less sick then?

    In combination with proper nutrition, very likely.

    TC


    You don't know anything about medicine so what's the point of giving
    examples of today versus yesterday. Some treatments for cancers such as
    Hodgkin's lymphoma to childhood ALL leukemia have been cured.
    Gregory is right, just stop taking your anti-psychotic medicine and you will
    jump off a bridge.

  16. Many antibiotics that you would be dead with if we didn't have them. Most
    were discovered within the last 50 years. You don't work in medicine so you
    really don't know anything about it. Comparing 50 years ago and today, only
    somebody that flips burgers doesn't realize. There are procedures,
    equipment, and medications in all the areas of medicine. You name the area,
    obstetrics, med-surg, intensive care. Even some OTC such as Zantac has
    reduced the number of stress ulcers and bleeding in the intensive care units
    to the point where they are routinely used.
    The triad antibiotics used in treating peptic ulcers. The heart stabilizers
    and blood pressure meds have all improved and there is not comparison.
    Don't forget the equipment that a lot of these evil drug manufacturers also
    have input on.

    "tcomeau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Name me one major truly lifesaving drug (not a vaccine) developed in
    the last 50 years.

    TC

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    All new drugs start off in clinical studies in a few so it is impossible


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    have it any other way. The new drug which is produced by a drug


    manufacturer

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    is NOT available to everybody but only under the control of the clinical
    investigator. So everything I have said is completely true. The only


    bizarre

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    action would be the one clowns like you are advocating. You know nothing
    about medicine. How many people have you treated? Where did you get your
    medical education? You are a clown in training.

    "tcomeau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    > "Phil Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message o.
    > >
    > >
    > > That explains a lot...even leaking over into other fields.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Phil Scott
    >
    > Hey Phil, imagine this scenario:
    > A man gets diagnosed with a fatal cancer and is told he has no hope


    with

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > that diagnosis. He looks near and far for the most prominent world


    expert

    Quoted message said:

    > with that particular malignancy and goes around the world to see


    him.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    After

    Quoted message said:

    > the consultation the doctor tells him that the only last hope for


    him is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    an

    Quoted message said:

    > experimental drug manufactured by Merck in which he is currently


    doing a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > clinical trial on. The man becomes distraught and shouts out, "You


    Drug

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > [censored]", and walks out.
    > LOLL, never happen.

    Do you have even one example of a drug that fits the bill as you
    described above? How many times do we hear about these esoteric
    experimental drug that will save the world? Yet, no one is being cured
    of anything. Everyone is getting sicker, taking more pills and *no
    one* is getting "cured".

    That line of logic is pretty pathetic when contrasted with the
    reality.

    TC

  17. That proves it John. Next time you come down with the flesh eating bacteria
    don't forget to tell the doctor not to give you any antibiotics because they
    don't cure anything. You need to share all your home remedies so people can
    try them before wasting the doctors time. Here's one. If you pee in a bucket
    everyday and put your feet in it. It will cure you of athletes foot. That is
    100% percent of the time.

    "john" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Pharmaceutical companies, in the United States, don't make drugs that
    cure anything. If they did, they would go out of business, and that
    is not their goal. They are "for profit" firms and they want to make
    as much money as possible. All they want to do is make drugs that
    treat the symptoms instead of the causes. That way people with those
    symptoms will have to buy those drugs for the rest of their lives,
    instead of being cured.

    Take a look at acid reflux, for instance. I went on a low carb diet
    two years ago and haven't had one instance of acid reflux since then.
    I am not alone, just check any low carb newsgroup and, if you took a
    survey, you will find almost 100 percent cure for acid reflux.

    (tcomeau) said:


    Do you have even one example of a drug that fits the bill as you
    described above? How many times do we hear about these esoteric
    experimental drug that will save the world? Yet, no one is being cured
    of anything. Everyone is getting sicker, taking more pills and *no
    one* is getting "cured".

    That line of logic is pretty pathetic when contrasted with the
    reality.

    TC


  18. Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:48:29 GMT in article
    <[email hidden]> "Gregory Poon"

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Practically all drugs are _manufactured_ by big pharma, that was not an
    issue. The question is where were they invented, who made the innovation


    and

    Quoted message said:

    basic research? Most of the major inventions originate from publicly


    funded

    Quoted message said:

    research or small bio-tech companies. Big pharma then buys


    patents/licences

    Quoted message said:

    and starts manufacturing and marketing.

    There seems to be widespread impression that big pharma does not do "real"
    drug research. Most of work required to bring a drug substance to the
    public is in fact done or funded by the manufacturer -- toxicology,
    pharmaceutics, pharmcokinetics, clinical trials, pharmacoeconomics, etc.
    Publiclly funded research in these aspects actually plays only a minor role,
    if only because the amount of money and organization required just don't
    exist in university research labs. So if academic research were to
    transcend to clinical applications, partnership (or whichever you choose to
    call it) with the pharmaceutical industry is essential. Insulin is probably
    the only notable example to date where the development of the drug can be
    attributed primarily to publiclly funded research (at the University of
    Toronto in the 1920's). And no, I don't work for a pharmaceutical company,
    but I do work at the U of T, so my plugging for insulin may be
    understandable.


    Well, the editorial article

    Angell M.
    The pharmaceutical industry--to whom is it accountable?
    N Engl J Med. 2000 Jun 22;342(25):1902-4
    <URL:http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/342/25/1902> (free for
    subscribers)
    <URL:http://www.mercola.com/2000/jun/24/pharmaceutical_industry.htm> (free)
    <URL:http://www.karlloren.com/Diabetes/p17.htm> (free)

    from the most prestigious medical journal in U.S. don't seem to agree with
    you. An excerpt:

    "What about the picture of the drug industry as an exemplar of
    the free market? That image is very far from the truth. On the
    contrary, the pharmaceutical industry enjoys extraordinary
    government protections and subsidies. Much of the early basic
    research that may lead to drug development is funded by the
    National Institutes of Health. (12) It is usually only later,
    when the research shows practical promise, that the drug
    companies become involved. The industry also enjoys great tax
    advantages. Not only are its research and development costs
    deductible, but so are its massive marketing expenses. The
    average tax rate of major U.S. industries from 1993 to 1996 was
    27.3 percent of revenues. During the same period the
    pharmaceutical industry was reportedly taxed at a rate of only
    16.2 percent. (13) Most important, the drug companies enjoy 17-
    year government-granted monopolies on their new drugs -- that
    is, patent protection. Once a drug is patented, no one else may
    sell it, and the drug company is free to charge whatever the
    traffic will bear.

    Is it correct that the U.S. pharmaceutical industry is highly
    innovative? Only partly. Some recently launched drugs do indeed
    fill important, previously unmet medical needs. But it is hard
    to escape the conclusion that many other new drugs add little
    to the therapeutic armamentarium except expense and confusion.
    Consider the welter of very similar drugs to lower cholesterol
    levels. Developing genuinely innovative drugs is difficult and
    chancy. It is easier to make "me-too" drugs or minor variants
    of established products. To be profitable, the variation need
    only be sufficient to secure a new patent, and the rest is
    marketing. Critics believe drug companies are doing far too
    much of that sort of thing. They also charge that many
    industry-sponsored clinical trials are designed more to find
    small advantages that can be highlighted in promotional
    campaigns than to find clinically meaningful effects. (14)

    The industry has certainly been ingenious in finding ways to
    extend patents on its bestselling drugs. For example, a recent
    Wall Street Journal article describes a complicated business
    deal between Merck and Schering-Plough for the marketing of two
    new drug combinations, one to lower serum lipid levels and the
    other to relieve allergies. Each combination will pair one
    company's "blockbuster" drug, whose patent as a single product
    will soon expire, with a drug with supplementary action owned
    by the other company. The combination drugs will have new
    patents, and their profits will be shared by both companies.
    (15) This may be good business, but the medical soundness of
    fixed drug combinations as opposed to flexible combinations of
    separate drugs is debatable.

    The marketing budgets of the drug industry are enormous -- much
    larger than the research and development costs -- although
    exact figures are difficult to come by, in part because
    marketing and administrative expenses are often folded together
    and in part because some of the research and development budget
    is for marketing research. According to its annual report,
    Pfizer spent 39.2 percent of its revenues on marketing and
    administration in 1999 (16); Pharmacia & Upjohn is reported to
    have spent about the same. (12) The industry depicts these huge
    expenditures as serving an educational function. It contends
    that doctors and the public learn about new and useful drugs in
    this way. Unfortunately, many doctors do indeed rely on drug-
    company representatives and promotional materials to learn
    about new drugs, and much of the public learns from direct-to-
    consumer advertising. (17) But to rely on the drug companies
    for unbiased evaluations of their products makes about as much
    sense as relying on beer companies to teach us about
    alcoholism. The conflict of interest is obvious. The fact is
    that marketing is meant to sell drugs, and the less important
    the drug, the more marketing it takes to sell it. Important new
    drugs do not need much promotion. Me-too drugs do."

    If you work at the University of Toronto you naturally are familiar with the
    fact that research leading to the discovery of insulin was conducted there.
    What amazes me is that you don't seem to be aware that most major medical
    breakthroughs originate from publicly funded research. How many percent of
    the Nobel Prize winners in Physiology or Medicine have worked for the big
    pharma at the time they have done the work which earned them the prize?
    And how it is possible that you fail to remember that the research effort
    which started the rise of modern medicine, the invention of the first
    antibiotic, penicillin, was totally publicly funded? Sir Alexander Fleming,
    who first discovered penicillin, worked at the St. Mary's Medical School,
    London University, and Sir Howard Florey and Ernst Boris Chain from Oxford
    University, were the scientists who developed penicillin further and were
    chiefly responsible for the research which led to its success as a drug. See
    for example

    <URL:http://www.nobel.se/medicine/laureates/1945/fleming-bio.html>
    <URL:http://www.nobel.se/medicine/laureates/1945/>
    <URL:http://www.time.com/time/time100/scientist/profile/fleming.html>
    <URL:http://www2.sjsu.edu/depts/Museum/flemin.html>
    <URL:http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/fleming_alexander.shtml>

    Finally, during the World War II an obscure outpost of a U.S. government
    agency, the Department of Agriculture's laboratory in Peoria, Illinois,
    figured out how to mass-produce penicillin, took out a patent on the method,
    and then made all of its patents available to any producer without charge.
    R. Moss gives some details about this process in the book "The Cancer
    Industry" (ISBN 1-55778-439-6):

    It was only with the approach of World War II, when huge
    casualties loomed and the Allies faced the loss of German sulfa
    drugs, that some British scientists began campaign to develop
    penicillin commercially [1]. Two British scientists were brought
    to United States in 1941, under the auspices of the Office of
    Scientific Research and development (OSRD), to try to get private
    pharmaceutical companies interested in working on the projects.
    "They had almost no luck," Richard Harris wrote in _The Real
    Voice_, summarizing the results of an investigation by Senator
    Estes Kefauver's staff [2].

    A few weeks after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, Dr.
    Vannevar Bush, director of OSRD, personally brought a number of
    drug companies into the research effort. A year and a half later
    he wrote:

    "Now the pharmaceutical companies have cooperated in this
    affair after a fashion. They have not made their experimental
    and their development of manufacturing processess generally
    available, however [2]."

    The problem, Harris remarked, "was that most firms were too busy
    trying to corner patents on various processes in the production
    of penicillin to produce much of it ..." [2]. On January 19,
    1944, the coordinator of the penicillin program of the War
    Production Board wrote that he could not "with a clear conscience
    assume the responsibility for coordinating this program" because
    of the refusal of the drug companies to exchange information, a
    refusal that was costing thousands of lives on the battlefield.

    The deadlock was broken only when an obscure outpost of a
    government agency, the Department of Agriculture's laboratory in
    Peoria, Illinois, figured out how to mass-produce penicillin,
    took out a patent on the method, and then made "all of its
    patents ... available to any producer without charge" [2].

    Even so, drug companies never showed much enthusiasm for penicillin.
    "The synthesis of penicillin brought laurels to the scientists," wrote
    _Fortune_ (March 1976), "but precious little else." For this reason,
    John McKeen, the president of Pfizer, said in 1950, "If you want to
    lose your shirt in a hurry, start making penicillin and streptomycin"
    [3]. Economics professor Alek A. Rozental commented further:

    "Pfizer announced that it would henceforth concentrate on
    the development of new and exclusive antibiotic specialties.
    Other firms had the same idea. Today the few that control
    production of the broad-spectrum antibiotics (Achromycin,
    Terramycin, Aureomycin, and tetracyclines) have managed to avoid
    repetition of the "unhappy" penicillin experience [3].""

    References:

    [1] Bäumler, Ernst. A Century of Chemistry. Translated by David Goodman.
    Dusseldorf: Econ Verlag, 1968.

    [2] Harris, Richard. The Real Voice. New York: Macmillan Publishing
    Company, 1964.

    [3] Rozental, Alek A. "The Strange Ethics of Ethical Drug Industry."
    In Crisis in American Medicine, edited by Marion K. Sanders. New
    York: Harper & Row, 1961

    --
    Matti Narkia

  19. "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Ok, let me re-phrase the question.

    Do you have even one example of a drug, developed in the last 40
    years, that fits the bill as you described above?

    Huh?

    TC

    There is in clinical trials right now where synthetic blood ie hemoglobin is
    being infused in the field in massive blood loss traumas. This chemical has
    a shelf life of years and does not require refrigeration compared to actual
    blood. Here is the clincher. Since these people are out cold because of the
    trauma they will not be asked if they want to be involved in research or
    not. They will not have informed signed consent. How do you like them
    apples? They have no choice.

    Kinda off topic don't ya think. We are talking about pharmacuticals,
    ie. drugs, not artificial blood products.

    There are always promising new life-saving drugs in development, isn't
    there? There is always the promise of miraculous drugs, isn't three?

    What I asked for was the name of one drug that was actually developed
    and is being used to save lives.

    I'll make it easier for you, I'll give you the names of the major
    killer diseases and you give me the name of the drug that has been
    developed and is saving peoples lives from these diseases.

    Diabetes.....

    Heart Disease.....

    Alzheimers......

    AIDS......

    Some of these diseases have had war declared on them, some for
    numerous decades now, where are the lifesaving drugs? A lot of promise
    but not much follow through. The promise of new life saving drugs is
    just another marketing mantra, and nothing more.

    TC

  20. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Matti Narkia said:

    Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:50:05 GMT in article
    <[email hidden]> "Gregory Poon"
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yep, but although vaccines prevent diseases they don't _cure_ anything.
    Besides, vaccines are rarely if ever developed by the big pharma. Polio
    vaccine research for example was mostly funded by voluntary donations from
    North_American citizen. The bulk of donations came from the March of


    Dimes,

    Quoted message said:

    a grassroots organization founded with the help of President Roosevelt
    (<URL:http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/polio.html>😉.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Vaccines for hepatitis A and B (Havrix, Engerix-B, etc.) are manufactured by
    GlaxoSmithKline. Merck also makes a hepatitis B vaccine, the varicella
    vaccine (Varivax), and a pediatric meningitis vaccine (Menjugate). Wyeth
    makes a pediatric pneumococcal vaccine (Prevnar). If these boys aren't "big
    pharma", I don't know what is.

    Quoted message said:

    Practically all drugs are _manufactured_ by big pharma, that was not an
    issue. The question is where were they invented, who made the innovation and
    basic research? Most of the major inventions originate from publicly funded
    research or small bio-tech companies. Big pharma then buys patents/licences
    and starts manufacturing and marketing.

    This last may be for some vaccines, but not for most drugs.

    The drug may be invented else where, but nobody can go ahead
    and sell a drug on the basis of the basic research and outside
    studies, unless they are very large. A drug normally goes
    through three phases of testing, on larger and larger numbers
    of patients, with a requirement of controls, to find out
    appropriate dosage and side effects. Meanwhile, the company
    has to provide medical care to all these patients, including
    the ones getting the placebo, as the physicians do not know
    who is getting what in most tests. These tests can take more
    than 10 years, during which time the pharmaceutical company
    has only costs. Only then does the FDA consider whether to
    allow marketing, and this is by no means automatic.

    Big pharma buys the patents/licenses at the beginning; then
    comes the testing.
    --
    This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
    are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
    Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
    [email hidden] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

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