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Re: The antidote

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UK and Europe
Published
11 October 2007
Last activity
13 October 2007
Original author
Clive George
Posts
84
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  1. "Brian Robertson" <brian@[nospam].com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I don't know if anyone else has said this on the thread, but you really
    should wear a helmet. I mean that not as a patronising git, but as someone
    with the near death experiences to prove it.

    You're an uk.transport poster, not uk.rec.cycling, aren't you? (*) Have a
    read of the archives of the latter group on the subject - you'll probably
    hate it, but it might prepare you a little for what to expect when you write
    stuff like the above.

    (* alternatively, you're new round here aren't you?)

    cheers,
    clive

  2. Clive George said:

    "Brian Robertson" <brian@[nospam].com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I don't know if anyone else has said this on the thread, but you
    really should wear a helmet. I mean that not as a patronising git, but
    as someone with the near death experiences to prove it.

    You're an uk.transport poster, not uk.rec.cycling, aren't you? (*) Have
    a read of the archives of the latter group on the subject - you'll
    probably hate it, but it might prepare you a little for what to expect
    when you write stuff like the above.

    (* alternatively, you're new round here aren't you?)

    cheers,
    clive

    People are entitled to their opinions and I to mine. I wouldn't support
    any move to force people to wear helmets, so it's all down to choice
    really, isn't it? Based upon our own experiences we make our choices.

    Brian.

  3. Brian Robertson said:
    Clive George said:

    "Brian Robertson" <brian@[nospam].com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I don't know if anyone else has said this on the thread, but you
    really should wear a helmet. I mean that not as a patronising git,
    but as someone with the near death experiences to prove it.

    You're an uk.transport poster, not uk.rec.cycling, aren't you? (*)
    Have a read of the archives of the latter group on the subject -
    you'll probably hate it, but it might prepare you a little for what
    to expect when you write stuff like the above.

    (* alternatively, you're new round here aren't you?)

    cheers,
    clive

    People are entitled to their opinions and I to mine. I wouldn't
    support any move to force people to wear helmets, so it's all down to
    choice really, isn't it? Based upon our own experiences we make our
    choices.

    Before they became compulsory, I expect many people had a similar view on
    motorcycle helmets and car seatbelts. Then the do-gooders thought they knew
    best and inflicted them on everyone.

  4. "Brian Robertson" <brian@[nospam].com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Clive George said:

    "Brian Robertson" <brian@[nospam].com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I don't know if anyone else has said this on the thread, but you really
    should wear a helmet. I mean that not as a patronising git, but as
    someone with the near death experiences to prove it.

    You're an uk.transport poster, not uk.rec.cycling, aren't you? (*) Have a
    read of the archives of the latter group on the subject - you'll probably
    hate it, but it might prepare you a little for what to expect when you
    write stuff like the above.

    (* alternatively, you're new round here aren't you?)

    People are entitled to their opinions and I to mine. I wouldn't support
    any move to force people to wear helmets, so it's all down to choice
    really, isn't it? Based upon our own experiences we make our choices.

    Personally I consider the experiences of others when making my choices too.
    But my point stands - you've, perhaps unwittingly, made a very contentious
    statement. It might be an idea to check up on these things if you're not
    trying to start an argument.

    And you did say DavidR should wear a helmet - you were seeking to impose
    your choice upon him.

    cheers,
    clive

  5. Brimstone said:
    Brian Robertson said:
    Clive George said:

    "Brian Robertson" <brian@[nospam].com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    > I don't know if anyone else has said this on the thread, but you
    > really should wear a helmet. I mean that not as a patronising git,
    > but as someone with the near death experiences to prove it.
    You're an uk.transport poster, not uk.rec.cycling, aren't you? (*)
    Have a read of the archives of the latter group on the subject -
    you'll probably hate it, but it might prepare you a little for what
    to expect when you write stuff like the above.

    (* alternatively, you're new round here aren't you?)

    cheers,
    clive


    People are entitled to their opinions and I to mine. I wouldn't
    support any move to force people to wear helmets, so it's all down to
    choice really, isn't it? Based upon our own experiences we make our
    choices.

    Before they became compulsory, I expect many people had a similar view on
    motorcycle helmets and car seatbelts. Then the do-gooders thought they knew
    best and inflicted them on everyone.

    Different thing, isn't it. You can't and never will be able to regulate
    cycling in that way, thank God! Personally, with motorbikes I would be
    pro-choice as well, but that's my opinion on most things.

    Brian.

  6. Clive George said:

    "Brian Robertson" <brian@[nospam].com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Clive George said:

    "Brian Robertson" <brian@[nospam].com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    > I don't know if anyone else has said this on the thread, but you
    > really should wear a helmet. I mean that not as a patronising git,
    > but as someone with the near death experiences to prove it.

    You're an uk.transport poster, not uk.rec.cycling, aren't you? (*)
    Have a read of the archives of the latter group on the subject -
    you'll probably hate it, but it might prepare you a little for what
    to expect when you write stuff like the above.

    (* alternatively, you're new round here aren't you?)

    People are entitled to their opinions and I to mine. I wouldn't
    support any move to force people to wear helmets, so it's all down to
    choice really, isn't it? Based upon our own experiences we make our
    choices.

    Personally I consider the experiences of others when making my choices
    too. But my point stands - you've, perhaps unwittingly, made a very
    contentious statement. It might be an idea to check up on these things
    if you're not trying to start an argument.

    And you did say DavidR should wear a helmet - you were seeking to impose
    your choice upon him.

    cheers,
    clive

    Yes, I apologise for my choice of words.

    Brian.

  7. Adrian said:

    Clive George ([email hidden]) gurgled happily, sounding much
    like they were saying :

    Quoted message said:

    "Brian Robertson" <brian@[nospam].com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    You're an uk.transport poster, not uk.rec.cycling, aren't you? (*)

    You're welcome to him. Please, feel free.

    Quoted message said:

    (* alternatively, you're new round here aren't you?)

    Not new enough.

    Love you too, mate lol

    Brian.

  8. Clive George ([email hidden]) gurgled happily, sounding much
    like they were saying :

    Quoted message said:

    "Brian Robertson" <brian@[nospam].com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    You're an uk.transport poster, not uk.rec.cycling, aren't you? (*)

    You're welcome to him. Please, feel free.

    Quoted message said:

    (* alternatively, you're new round here aren't you?)

    Not new enough.

  9. Brian Robertson said:
    Brimstone said:
    Brian Robertson said:

    Clive George wrote:
    > "Brian Robertson" <brian@[nospam].com> wrote in message
    > news:[email hidden]...
    >
    >> I don't know if anyone else has said this on the thread, but you
    >> really should wear a helmet. I mean that not as a patronising git,
    >> but as someone with the near death experiences to prove it.
    > You're an uk.transport poster, not uk.rec.cycling, aren't you? (*)
    > Have a read of the archives of the latter group on the subject -
    > you'll probably hate it, but it might prepare you a little for what
    > to expect when you write stuff like the above.
    >
    > (* alternatively, you're new round here aren't you?)
    >
    > cheers,
    > clive
    People are entitled to their opinions and I to mine. I wouldn't
    support any move to force people to wear helmets, so it's all down
    to choice really, isn't it? Based upon our own experiences we make
    our choices.

    Before they became compulsory, I expect many people had a similar
    view on motorcycle helmets and car seatbelts. Then the do-gooders
    thought they knew best and inflicted them on everyone.

    Different thing, isn't it.

    Why?

    Quoted message said:

    You can't and never will be able to
    regulate cycling in that way

    Why not?

    Quoted message said:

    , thank God!

    Which one?

    Quoted message said:

    Personally, with motorbikes
    I would be pro-choice as well

    Why?

  10. Brimstone said:
    Brian Robertson said:
    Clive George said:

    "Brian Robertson" <brian@[nospam].com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    >I don't know if anyone else has said this on the thread, but you
    >really should wear a helmet. I mean that not as a patronising git,
    >but as someone with the near death experiences to prove it.

    You're an uk.transport poster, not uk.rec.cycling, aren't you? (*)
    Have a read of the archives of the latter group on the subject -
    you'll probably hate it, but it might prepare you a little for what
    to expect when you write stuff like the above.

    (* alternatively, you're new round here aren't you?)

    cheers,
    clive

    People are entitled to their opinions and I to mine. I wouldn't
    support any move to force people to wear helmets, so it's all down to
    choice really, isn't it? Based upon our own experiences we make our
    choices.

    Before they became compulsory, I expect many people had a similar view on
    motorcycle helmets and car seatbelts. Then the do-gooders thought they knew
    best and inflicted them on everyone.

    I can remember riding a motor-bike without a helmet in the 1960s. I
    appreciate why the law was changed, but that's easy to say because I
    was never affected by it.

    Similarly, it was only the (1983) change in the law on seatbelts that
    made me wear one. It's becoming history now (almost 25 years), but
    back then, a passenger who belted up was sometimes seen as lacking
    confidence in the driver in a very obvious way, whilst a driver
    belting up could be perceived as preparing for an accident and make a
    passenger nervous!

  11. Brimstone said:
    Brian Robertson said:
    Brimstone said:

    Brian Robertson wrote:
    > Clive George wrote:
    >> "Brian Robertson" <brian@[nospam].com> wrote in message
    >> news:[email hidden]...
    >>
    >>> I don't know if anyone else has said this on the thread, but you
    >>> really should wear a helmet. I mean that not as a patronising git,
    >>> but as someone with the near death experiences to prove it.
    >> You're an uk.transport poster, not uk.rec.cycling, aren't you? (*)
    >> Have a read of the archives of the latter group on the subject -
    >> you'll probably hate it, but it might prepare you a little for what
    >> to expect when you write stuff like the above.
    >>
    >> (* alternatively, you're new round here aren't you?)
    >>
    >> cheers,
    >> clive
    > People are entitled to their opinions and I to mine. I wouldn't
    > support any move to force people to wear helmets, so it's all down
    > to choice really, isn't it? Based upon our own experiences we make
    > our choices.
    Before they became compulsory, I expect many people had a similar
    view on motorcycle helmets and car seatbelts. Then the do-gooders
    thought they knew best and inflicted them on everyone.


    Different thing, isn't it.

    Why?

    Quoted message said:

    You can't and never will be able to
    regulate cycling in that way

    Why not?

    Quoted message said:

    , thank God!

    Which one?

    Quoted message said:

    Personally, with motorbikes
    I would be pro-choice as well

    Why?

    I think you are a sensible person in lots of ways and we could agree on
    a lot. However, if you can't understand why an exercise that is
    enjoyed by people as soon as they can walk can't be regulated.........

    You are just trying to trip me up. You aren't interested in debate.

    Brian.

  12. Brian Robertson said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You can't and never will be able to
    regulate cycling in that way


    Why not?

    I think you are a sensible person in lots of ways and we could agree on
    a lot. However, if you can't understand why an exercise that is
    enjoyed by people as soon as they can walk can't be regulated.........

    I can't either. In fact it already is regulated in many ways: it's
    illegal to enjoy this activity on pavements, without lights at night,
    without pedal reflectors, without effective brakes, while moving
    contrary to the traffic flow, ... there are a whole raft of rules which
    you can find out about by consulting the Highway Code, or go directly to
    the source and check out for example the Pedal Cycles (Construction and
    Use) Regulations 1983 (Statutory Instrument 1983 No. 1176) and the
    Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989

    -dan

  13. "JNugent" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Similarly, it was only the (1983) change in the law on seatbelts that made
    me wear one. It's becoming history now (almost 25 years), but back then, a
    passenger who belted up was sometimes seen as lacking confidence in the
    driver in a very obvious way, whilst a driver belting up could be
    perceived as preparing for an accident and make a passenger nervous!

    I can remember my friend's dad in the 1970s being very scathing about seat
    belts, particularly after (he said) *not* wearing a seat belt saved him from
    being squished when someone T-boned him and because he wasn't wearing a seat
    belt he was able to move across to the passenger seat before it happened -
    it was a car with a bench set in the front: couldn't do it in a modern car!

    However my dad drummed into my sister and me that we must always wear our
    seat belts if we sat in the front. And mum and dad enforced this rigidly: on
    one occasion I took my belt off because I didn't like feeling constrained by
    it (it was an old-style non-inertia belt) and dad stopped immediately and
    read the riot act: "I don't set off again until you put it on or get in the
    back seat".

    Mum's car was a different matter: a 1960 Morris Minor with shiny leather
    seats, no seat belts and no latch to stop the front seats from tipping up
    (it was a 2-door car). On one occasion, I was sitting in the front and my
    sister was behind me in the back. Mum had to stop quickly. I braced myself
    and I'd probably have been OK except that my sister shot forward, pushing
    the backrest of the seat forward and catapulting me out of my seat into the
    very hard, unforgiving metal dashboard. Ouch!!! After that, Dad enquired
    about getting seat belts fitted but found that the door pillars and floor
    pan weren't strong enough to take the mountings.

    Compared with my friends at school, I think we were probably fairly rare in
    the 70s in wearing seat belts.

    The change in the law in 1983, and the later one making it compulsory to
    wear seat belts in the back, had no effect on me: I was already always
    wearing one. To this day, I do it automatically as soon as I get in a car,
    and I feel "undressed" without a seat belt on.

    Turning to cycle helmets: I never used to wear one when I had my first bike
    in the 70s and 80s, but then I don't remember seeing them in the shops or
    seeing anyone wearing on. When I bought my new bike a few years ago and took
    up cycling again, I bought one as a matter of course, especially after the
    friend who was with me when I bought the bike had recently come off her bike
    (fortunately at low speed) and her helmet had protected her. It would never
    occur to me not to wear a helmet - indeed one day I set off without putting
    mine on, realised that something wasn't right, turned round at the end of
    the road and came back for it.

    Having said that, the article quoted earlier in this thread makes
    interesting reading. Maybe the case for wearing a cycle helmet is less
    clear-cut than for a motorbike helmet (which tends to be larger, thicker and
    covers the full head/jaw, not just the top of the head), and certainly the
    case for wearing a seat belt, with the risk of flying through the windscreen
    without one, is pretty clear-cut.

    My gut feeling is that any form of protection is better than none, though
    maybe the degree of protection is less than I might expect.

    I wonder how long it will be before someone suggests that all cyclists
    should wear motorbike leathers to protect them from nasty abrasions if they
    come off the bike and scrape along the road! As I'm going down a steep hill,
    I sometimes think what the road surface could do to me if I were to hit a
    pothole and come off. But cycling in a teeshirt and shorts in hot weather is
    much cooler than wearing even long trousers and a long-sleeved shirt, never
    mind leathers.

  14. In message <[email hidden]>

    Mortimer said:

    It would never
    occur to me not to wear a helmet - indeed one day I set off without putting
    mine on, realised that something wasn't right, turned round at the end of
    the road and came back for it.

    I realised I hadn't fastened the strap yesterday - the horror!

    I read in "Cyclecraft" about looking for your knees as you fall, and
    that is something I wish I had known about years ago.

    Do most bike accidents / incidents involve another vehicle?

    --
    Charles
    Brompton P6R-Plus; CarryFreedom -YL, in Motspur Park
    LCC; CTC.

  15. In article said:


    Do most bike accidents / incidents involve another vehicle?

    Depends what/how you count. Minor incidents with no serious injury are
    more likely to be single vehicle and less likely to be reported.

  16. Brian Robertson said:
    Brimstone said:
    Brian Robertson said:

    Brimstone wrote:
    > Brian Robertson wrote:
    >> Clive George wrote:
    >>> "Brian Robertson" <brian@[nospam].com> wrote in message
    >>> news:[email hidden]...
    >>>
    >>>> I don't know if anyone else has said this on the thread, but you
    >>>> really should wear a helmet. I mean that not as a patronising
    >>>> git, but as someone with the near death experiences to prove it.
    >>> You're an uk.transport poster, not uk.rec.cycling, aren't you?
    >>> (*) Have a read of the archives of the latter group on the
    >>> subject - you'll probably hate it, but it might prepare you a
    >>> little for what to expect when you write stuff like the above.
    >>>
    >>> (* alternatively, you're new round here aren't you?)
    >>>
    >>> cheers,
    >>> clive
    >> People are entitled to their opinions and I to mine. I wouldn't
    >> support any move to force people to wear helmets, so it's all down
    >> to choice really, isn't it? Based upon our own experiences we make
    >> our choices.
    > Before they became compulsory, I expect many people had a similar
    > view on motorcycle helmets and car seatbelts. Then the do-gooders
    > thought they knew best and inflicted them on everyone.
    >
    >
    Different thing, isn't it.

    Why?

    Quoted message said:

    You can't and never will be able to
    regulate cycling in that way

    Why not?

    Quoted message said:

    , thank God!

    Which one?

    Quoted message said:

    Personally, with motorbikes
    I would be pro-choice as well

    Why?

    I think you are a sensible person in lots of ways and we could agree
    on a lot. However, if you can't understand why an exercise that is
    enjoyed by people as soon as they can walk can't be regulated.........

    You are just trying to trip me up. You aren't interested in debate.

    No, I'm trying to find out what causes you to hold those views.

  17. In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    My gut feeling is that any form of protection is better than none, though
    maybe the degree of protection is less than I might expect.

    That's where common sense breaks down. The only effect of seat belts,
    as found in the Isles Report which the Government of the day
    commissioned and then buried without publishing it, was that the net
    effect of seat belts was no change in car occupant deaths and an
    increase in pedestrian and cyclist deaths. This is well covered in the
    book Risk by UCL professor, John Adams.

    The net effect of helmet compulsion where it has been tried has been a
    drop in the numbers cycling which is greater than the drop in head
    injured cyclists, so an increase in head injury rates. This is thought
    to be partly due to risk compensation as discussed by Adams (Hagel found
    helmet wearing child cyclists were riding faster and had more damage to
    their bikes in accidents than helmetless ones).

    The same effect is seen elsewhere. For example a study of Munich taxi
    drivers found that in otherwise identical cars, those with ABS fitted
    drove faster, braked harder and had more accidents than those without -
    and drivers were randomised to cars day to day so its not just the more
    aggressive drivers choosing ABS.

    So gut feeling in this whole area is not a reliable guide to what you
    should do. Having said that, like you I have worn a seat belt from
    childhood and I now have no legal choice so the whole matter is moot but
    I don't wear a helmet now cycling and I don't want to be forced to by
    the numerous attempts to get them made mandatory in law.

    Which is why I react strongly to those who say its common sense you
    should wear one.

    --
    Tony

    " I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
    Bertrand Russell

  18. "Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...
    The same effect is seen elsewhere. For example a study of Munich taxi
    drivers found that in otherwise identical cars, those with ABS fitted
    drove faster, braked harder and had more accidents than those without -
    and drivers were randomised to cars day to day so its not just the more
    aggressive drivers choosing ABS.

    Yes, I've heard that as well: that cyclists and drivers take greater risks
    because they know that they have greater protection. I wonder if I fall into
    that category? I'd like to think that I value my car or bike, as well as the
    lives of other people that I might hit, to still take the same degree of
    precaution as if I wasn't wearing a seat belt, but I wonder if this really
    is the case?

    Quoted message said:

    Which is why I react strongly to those who say its common sense you
    should wear one.

    I think it is common sense that you should use the available protection. The
    problem is that other factors such as risk compensation come into play and
    therefore the results are not as would be predicted by straightforward
    common sense.

  19. Tony Raven said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
    says...

    Quoted message said:

    My gut feeling is that any form of protection is better than none,
    though maybe the degree of protection is less than I might expect.

    That's where common sense breaks down. The only effect of seat belts,
    as found in the Isles Report which the Government of the day
    commissioned and then buried without publishing it, was that the net
    effect of seat belts was no change in car occupant deaths and an
    increase in pedestrian and cyclist deaths. This is well covered in
    the book Risk by UCL professor, John Adams.

    The net effect of helmet compulsion where it has been tried has been a
    drop in the numbers cycling which is greater than the drop in head
    injured cyclists, so an increase in head injury rates. This is
    thought to be partly due to risk compensation as discussed by Adams
    (Hagel found helmet wearing child cyclists were riding faster and had
    more damage to their bikes in accidents than helmetless ones).

    The same effect is seen elsewhere. For example a study of Munich taxi
    drivers found that in otherwise identical cars, those with ABS fitted
    drove faster, braked harder and had more accidents than those without
    - and drivers were randomised to cars day to day so its not just the
    more aggressive drivers choosing ABS.

    So gut feeling in this whole area is not a reliable guide to what you
    should do. Having said that, like you I have worn a seat belt from
    childhood and I now have no legal choice so the whole matter is moot
    but I don't wear a helmet now cycling and I don't want to be forced
    to by the numerous attempts to get them made mandatory in law.

    Which is why I react strongly to those who say its common sense you
    should wear one.

    Thanks for that. It's long been my gut instinct that the use of seat belts
    and other devices to improve the safety of car drivers and occupants serves
    only to protect them (at best) whilst having a negative effect on others.

    I recall a comment by one of the newspapers motoring journalists when
    driving a pre-war car (obviously no seat belts) in which she said that she
    felt unsafe.

    That, to me, is how every driver should feel, all the time.

    John Adams point that compulsory wearing of seat belts was effectively the
    start of the Nanny State also matches my thoughts.

  20. "Brimstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony Raven said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
    says...

    Quoted message said:

    My gut feeling is that any form of protection is better than none,
    though maybe the degree of protection is less than I might expect.

    I recall a comment by one of the newspapers motoring journalists when
    driving a pre-war car (obviously no seat belts) in which she said that she
    felt unsafe.

    That, to me, is how every driver should feel, all the time.

    If motorists were only vulnerable as a result of their *own* actions and not
    those of other people, then it would be right to make drivers feel unsafe at
    all times, to limit the risks that they might take. I've even heard it
    suggested (humourously, I hope) that every car should have a big spike in
    the middle of the steering wheel to heighten that feeling of being unsafe.

    But the risk of being injured is affected partly by other road users: one
    can be a safe driver who never takes any unnecessary risks and yet still be
    involved in a accident caused solely by someone else who flouts the rules.

    Any fool can reduce the accident rate by reducing the speed that cars drive
    at and by reducing other risks that they may take. But that's the no-brain
    solution. The clever solution is one that keeps the same level of speed etc
    while reducing the risk to everyone. And that solution involves *all* road
    users taking responsibility for everyone's safety by not crossing the road
    directly in front of a moving vehicle and by not pulling out from a side
    road in front of a moving car. I other words, by being aware of your
    surroundings and devoting your whole attention to the road around you.

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