Re: "Social rider" beef

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My wife is a "social" rider and she often criticizes me for riding too
fast but "social" or "fast" aside, something is odd about your story.
You say that you got lost before completing the first 12 miles of a 100
mile ride. Later in this thread you say you managed to bring the group
in after riding exactly 100 miles. If you knew the area well enough to
do that then how the heck did you ever get lost in the first place?
Weren't route maps available ahead of time?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

I knew enough about the course to know where we were supposed to be headed,
generally. We headed out of this town after only a dozen miles and we were
headed straight back to the starting town on a main road. I kept my mouth
shut and kept waiting for a turn to the left that I felt should be coming.
It kept NOT coming. It was a very flat road and we were flying. I was
trying to decide what to do. I DID know EXACTLY where I was. I DIDN"T know
EXACTLY where the route went. Finally, we reached a point where I knew of
no more possible turns to the left that could get us over to where I knew
the course needed to be headed. So I stopped the group and got us going
back the opposite direction on a different road that intersected a place
where I knew the course passed through in the end of the county with which I
was familiar. The loop we invented when we were lost turned out to be about
16 miles. The loop we missed turned out to be about 16 miles. Lucky
coincidence.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:29:35 -0400, "psycholist" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I knew enough about the course to know where we were supposed to be headed,
generally. We headed out of this town after only a dozen miles and we were
headed straight back to the starting town on a main road. I kept my mouth
shut and kept waiting for a turn to the left that I felt should be coming.
It kept NOT coming. It was a very flat road and we were flying. I was
trying to decide what to do. I DID know EXACTLY where I was. I DIDN"T know
EXACTLY where the route went. Finally, we reached a point where I knew of
no more possible turns to the left that could get us over to where I knew
the course needed to be headed. So I stopped the group and got us going
back the opposite direction on a different road that intersected a place
where I knew the course passed through in the end of the county with which I
was familiar. The loop we invented when we were lost turned out to be about
16 miles. The loop we missed turned out to be about 16 miles. Lucky
coincidence.

Hi, I'm not familiar with what is normal preparation and procedure for
a ride like this. I have a question, besides marking the course, do
they supply written directions?

The few club rides I have been on, were all under 40 miles. They had
written directions. I rode one organized fund raiser, for the local
Zoo society, that included both sheets and markings.

How many riders participated in this event?

For the little that it is worth, I don't think you are being a jerk
about this. Hopefully the club will take the lessons learned here and
maybe in the future do better.

Life is Good!
Jeff

"Jeff Starr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:29:35 -0400, "psycholist" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I knew enough about the course to know where we were supposed to be
headed,
generally. We headed out of this town after only a dozen miles and we
were
headed straight back to the starting town on a main road. I kept my mouth
shut and kept waiting for a turn to the left that I felt should be coming.
It kept NOT coming. It was a very flat road and we were flying. I was
trying to decide what to do. I DID know EXACTLY where I was. I DIDN"T
know
EXACTLY where the route went. Finally, we reached a point where I knew
of
no more possible turns to the left that could get us over to where I knew
the course needed to be headed. So I stopped the group and got us going
back the opposite direction on a different road that intersected a place
where I knew the course passed through in the end of the county with which
I
was familiar. The loop we invented when we were lost turned out to be
about
16 miles. The loop we missed turned out to be about 16 miles. Lucky
coincidence.

Hi, I'm not familiar with what is normal preparation and procedure for
a ride like this. I have a question, besides marking the course, do
they supply written directions?

The few club rides I have been on, were all under 40 miles. They had
written directions. I rode one organized fund raiser, for the local
Zoo society, that included both sheets and markings.

How many riders participated in this event?

For the little that it is worth, I don't think you are being a jerk
about this. Hopefully the club will take the lessons learned here and
maybe in the future do better.

Life is Good!
Jeff

Life is, indeed, good Jeff. I just had to get this little beef off my chest
and I did so here so I wouldn't come down too harshly on the guy who
organized the event. He meant well, I'm sure.

To answer your question, they did have a route sheet, too. That's typical
at these events that the course is marked and there are route sheets.
However, it's also typical that you go by the markings. Nobody wants to be
riding in a fast group and have people pulling maps out of their pockets and
trying to read them as they ride, etc. That's not safe. The maps are good
to check before you leave (which I had done to a sufficient extent to
realize when we'd strayed a ways off course) and to reference if you DO get
lost. Course markings should be big, bold and well in advance of the
turns/events they mark. They should also be consistent. We were following
white marks for the first 12 miles. Then the guy changed to orange paint.
And he did so just as we entered a construction zone where there were orange
signs and cones and barrels and other orange marks on the road. Sheesh!
Apparently he thought the orange marks would highlight the danger of the
construction zone. But he had us following white marks up until then. Nice
intent I suppose. Bad practical application.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

psycholist said:

Course markings should be big, bold and well in advance of the
turns/events they mark. They should also be consistent.

We try to do at _least_ two marks prior to every turn, giving
sufficient warning. On fast downhills, maybe more. There should be a
confirmation mark after the turn. And on a straight-through
intersection, it's nice to have a straight-through arrow to confirm
that there's _no_ turn.

- Frank Krygowski

psycholist said:

To answer your question, they did have a route sheet, too. That's typical
at these events that the course is marked and there are route sheets.
However, it's also typical that you go by the markings. Nobody wants to be
riding in a fast group and have people pulling maps out of their pockets and
trying to read them as they ride, etc. That's not safe. The maps are good
to check before you leave (which I had done to a sufficient extent to
realize when we'd strayed a ways off course) and to reference if you DO get
lost. Course markings should be big, bold and well in advance of the
turns/events they mark. They should also be consistent. We were following
white marks for the first 12 miles. Then the guy changed to orange paint.
And he did so just as we entered a construction zone where there were orange
signs and cones and barrels and other orange marks on the road. Sheesh!
Apparently he thought the orange marks would highlight the danger of the
construction zone. But he had us following white marks up until then. Nice
intent I suppose. Bad practical application.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

I agree that it was a bad idea to switch the marking colors without
warning and that riders shouldn't have to read maps while they are
riding but as you point out, you looked at the map before taking off
and so were able to get the group back on the right course. Where I
differ with you- and it's only a minor difference- is where warning
markings should be placed. If there's a particularly tricky turn ahead
(tricky meaning easily missed) and I know that 90% of the riders will
hold a 15mph average speed I might place sign warning, "Right turn
ahead", 100 feet or so before that turn. A rider doing 25mph will not
consider that a sufficient distance but if I place it 200 feet before
that turn the majority of the participants will complain later that the
turn in question was confusing. It's just not possible to make everyone
happy so the best thing anyone marking a course can do is put up as
many signs/markings as practical, print out a route sheet, warn the
riders of any areas requiring special attention, and realize that no
matter what you do somebody is going to get lost. We've all seen riders
that could get lost on an enclosed oval after all. <g>

Regards,
Bob Hunt

"Bob" wrote: (clip) If there's a particularly tricky turn (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How about placing a sign AFTER the turn, which says, "Go back"?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To answer your question, they did have a route sheet, too. That's typical
at these events that the course is marked and there are route sheets

Psycholist,

Let me understand you. You had a cue sheet but refused to use it. You
missed a road marking and got lost. Listening to your [censored] and
wining, you sound like HIGH MAINTENANCE to me. You should step up to
the plate next year and show how you can do better.

<<How about placing a sign AFTER the turn, which says, "Go back"? >>

There are usually too many turns to do this, although it might be done
after a particularly tricky turn.

These markings are also probably less helpful than you'd thinkl.
Suppose you are marking with yellow paint. Then some riders will see
the yellow on the other side of the intersection and head in the wrong
direction. This could be avoided by marking in a different color. But
if a rider is used to following yellow markings, they will not be
noticing other colors.

It's also a lot more work for the marking crew. I like to mark from the
bike, with the spray can in a water bottle cage. I stop half a block
ahead and make a mark. Then I mark just ahead of the intersection. Then
I stop again after the turn.

Indicating "go back" means I need to make a U-turn across the
intersection after the third mark, get to the "go back" marking spot,
make the marking, then make another U-turn back to continue the route.

In short, it's not that helpful and a lot more work.

Leo Lichtman said:

"Bob" wrote: (clip) If there's a particularly tricky turn (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How about placing a sign AFTER the turn, which says, "Go back"?

We've done that only in extreme situations. In most cases, two (maybe
three) prior warnings and one confirmation after seemed to do fine for
us.

- Frank Krygowski

Mark said:

Psycholist,

Let me understand you. You had a cue sheet but refused to use it. You
missed a road marking and got lost. Listening to your [censored] and
wining, you sound like HIGH MAINTENANCE to me.

I _strongly_ disagree!

Again, I ran a big century ride for about seven years. I had plenty of
time to think about this stuff.

What were people paying money for? Not the food, although ours got
raves. They could have eaten as well in a restaurant on the way. A
few nervous ones perhaps paid to get the sag wagons, but only a
negligible number really make use of them.

The big thing they paid for was a really nice route, plus perhaps
comraderie of others riding the route. If it's not well marked, they
lose what they paid for!

In my experience, cue sheets and maps almost never come out unless the
rider is somehow in trouble - lost, or so tired they can't ride in,
etc. People who are capable of 100 miles like to just clip along at
their preferred pace, and map reading takes time! It's just a pain.

When Dan Henry invented road marking arrows, he did us all a big favor.
But to make them work, ride organizers need to do them right.

Quoted message said:

You should step up to
the plate next year and show how you can do better.

I wonder, Mark, have you ever marked roads for such an event?

- Frank Krygowski

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To answer your question, they did have a route sheet, too. That's typical
at these events that the course is marked and there are route sheets

Psycholist,

Let me understand you. You had a cue sheet but refused to use it. You
missed a road marking and got lost. Listening to your [censored] and
wining, you sound like HIGH MAINTENANCE to me. You should step up to
the plate next year and show how you can do better.

Hey Mark,

Let me understand you. Don't you read? We followed marks all the way. I
couldn't include every little detail in my original post, but in this
thread, I've provided the info that we followed the marks that were there.
The guy led us out on white marks. Then changed to orange -- in the middle
of a construction zone where there were orange marks of all kinds,
everywhere! Didn't bother to tell us. We blew right by the orange marks.
We had no reason to be looking for orange marks that we knew of. After that
zone, we saw white marks again and started following them, not realizing
they were marks to be followed on the final loop in the last 15 miles of the
course. (We were on the first 15 miles of the course.) When I realized and
was absolutely sure that we had to be doing something wrong, I stopped our
group (which was moving right along, btw). That took a good while 'cuz we
were going down a road where any number of left turns were possible that
would have gotten us over to the next town I knew was supposed to come up
along the route. But we never took any left turns. So I stopped the group
and we consulted a map. I demonstrated to the group where we should be vs.
where we were and I came up with the fix that got us back on the course.

So stuff it.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

Leo Lichtman said:

"Bob" wrote: (clip) If there's a particularly tricky turn (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How about placing a sign AFTER the turn, which says, "Go back"?

My experience with route marking has been mostly for a charity ride I
do each year. There always seems to be one spot with the potential to
confuse a lot of people so we try to post a volunteer there to direct
riders. Signs saying "Go back" or "Wrong way" sound good but since the
different mileage routes- riders can choose 25, 50, or 100k options-
overlap and even cross at one point signs aren't a workable option for
that particular ride. A ride that doesn't have enough volunteer help or
ride marshals might use the signs you suggest.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Quoted message said:

psycholist said:

Course markings should be big, bold and well in advance of the
turns/events they mark. They should also be consistent.

We try to do at _least_ two marks prior to every turn, giving
sufficient warning. On fast downhills, maybe more. There should be a
confirmation mark after the turn. And on a straight-through
intersection, it's nice to have a straight-through arrow to confirm
that there's _no_ turn.

- Frank Krygowski

A 100 mile ride with two warnings preceding every turn? That sounds
like you have a very generous budget for spray chalk and a lot of route
marking volunteers. I envy you.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Bob said:

A 100 mile ride with two warnings preceding every turn? That sounds
like you have a very generous budget for spray chalk and a lot of route
marking volunteers. I envy you.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Yeah, we've got a good set of volunteers. The marking stuff isn't that
expensive, and we think it's well worth it.

I'm proud to say the LAB gave us an award one year, as one of their top
3 century rides.

- Frank Krygowski

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob said:

A 100 mile ride with two warnings preceding every turn? That sounds
like you have a very generous budget for spray chalk and a lot of route
marking volunteers. I envy you.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Yeah, we've got a good set of volunteers. The marking stuff isn't that
expensive, and we think it's well worth it.

I'm proud to say the LAB gave us an award one year, as one of their top
3 century rides.

- Frank Krygowski

Congrats Frank. Where is that?

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

psycholist said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I'm proud to say the LAB gave us an award one year, as one of their top
3 century rides.

- Frank Krygowski

Congrats Frank. Where is that?

Northeast Ohio Century. At that time, we started the ride in Warren
Ohio. The ride goes through the Amish area of Middlefield, east of
Cleveland.

I was in charge of the ride, and my wife was in charge of the lunch
stop. This was probably about 1994, the first year LAB gave out that
award.

- Frank Krygowski