Re: "slide and glide"

Freestyle tips with Coach Marc Evans
By Marc Evans

March 14, 2005 -- Marc Evans is a former USA Triathlon head coach and
author of Triathlete's Edge, and has coached since 1982. The below
questions are based on his article, "Swimming: The Momentum and Arc
Continuum," in the March 2005 issue of Triathlete, in which he offers
the following freestyle tips:

1. Enter earlier with the middle or ring fingers in a continually
moving, forward and downward arc
2. Catch the water by positioning the hand gently onto the water
3. Never stop moving the hand during the stroke
4. Keep the shoulder high in the water at the beginning of the pull
5. Pull straight through with a high elbow (above the hand or forearm
vertically pointing downwards)
6. Exit the water at the hip (palms down and facing backwards)
7. Recovery: Accelerate and speed this up a little
8. Keep a fixed forward shoulder-line. Don't extend forward at the
entry. Don't let the shoulder slope forward
9. Rotate symmetrically side-to-side about 45 degrees
10. Swim forward. Yes, it's obvious, but that's the idea: forward
11. Avoid unnecessary movement throughout the stroke
12. Breathing: Move the hand during each breath and inhale at the
beginning of the pull
13. Bi-lateral breathe (take a breath every third stroke) during
warm-up and warm-down
14. Maintain proper head position: the same as standing with a tall
posture with the head and neck balanced
15. The longer the forward arm and hand are held out front along the
surface of the water, the less continuous forward motion is preserved.
When the hand stops moving, forward movement slowly declines. The hand
and arm should never at any time during the stroke stop moving.

Marc,
I just re-read (for the third time) your article in Triathlete magazine
on swimming technique (March 2005 issue). I'm glad that you shared your
experience here as I am also frustrated with the "glide and extension"
technique. I have applied your suggestions and have experienced
immediate results -- though, admittedly, the change feels very awkward.
Do you have any videos, books or training materials that address this
swim technique specifically? While the article does a great job
introducing the concept and helping to get started, I'd like to learn
more about stroke technique, drills, the role of the kick, specific
training routines, etc., that I can do to perfect it. Thanks!
Philip

Philip,
Thanks for your email. You're not alone, as I've had a number of
similar emails. To learn the techniques described in the article, focus
upon one item at a time, usually using one-arm drills such as three
left strokes and three right strokes. No drills other than the
kick-board drill with the one arm are necessary. Drills do not educate
or teach a swimmer unless a focus upon a specific skill or task is
applied.

To be sure, the most important of the concepts begins with positioning
the hand and forearm in the water to make the catch. If you execute
this, the rest of the stroke will come together more effectively.

I don't have a video or other training recommendations for you -- that
is, unless you wanted to come in for a session. Many people do from
around the country. You can see the programs I offer on my website link
below.

Again, I've been receiving many emails about the article and appreciate
yours, too. I hope this helps some, but as you can imagine, I cannot
"coach" you without actually seeing you in person. To that end, I am a
coach who prefers to work with people directly (and find those who
don't, well, not really coaches).

Warm Regards,
Marc Evans

Mr. Evans,
I just read about your swim theories in the new Triathlete magazine and
am interested in learning more. I am attempting the Canadian Ironman
this year and I just taught myself how to swim last October. I have
been attempting the "glide" technique in swimming and it is not working
well for me. Do you have any videos or DVDs that I can purchase to
learn more about your swim style? I am in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada,
so, even though I would love to, I can't attend one of your coaching
sessions in San Francisco.

Thanks in advance,
Darcy

Darcy,
Thanks for your email. Triathlete magazine appreciates your reading it,
too! You're not alone, as I've had a number of similar emails. To learn
the techniques described in the article, focus upon one item at a time,
usually using one-arm drills, such as three left strokes and three
right strokes. No drills other than the kickboard drill with the one
arm are necessary. Drills do not educate or teach a swimmer unless a
focus upon a specific skill or task is applied.

To be sure, the most important of the concepts begins with positioning
the hand and forearm in the water to make the catch. If you execute
this, the rest of the stroke will come together more effectively.

I don't have a video or other training recommendations for you. Again,
I've been receiving many emails about the article and appreciate yours,
too. I hope this helps some, but as you can imagine, I cannot "coach"
you without actually seeing you in person.

Perhaps a local swim coach who agrees with my principles can help you.
However, I believe strongly that the more you "glide," the harder it
will be to learn how to swim right. Keep in mind the continual movement
of the hands, too! They should never stop or glide along the surface of
the water. Remember to position first, then exit early from the hip and
make an earlier entry.

Good luck to you...

Warm Regards,
Marc Evans

Man o' Tea said:

Quoted message said:

The "glide" part of "slide and glide"
must be dispensed with to get to the
fastest possible speed. The TI camp
seems rather mute about acknowledging
that or describing ways that elites
solve that "hole" in their style.

In your TI research, have you read about
'gearing' yet?

"Your starting point for accomplishing these goals is to develop four
foundation skills: balance, body alignment, body rotation, and
coordinated propelling movements. The key is to have a relaxed,
low-drag, fluent stroke at low speeds and to maintain all of those
qualities as you move through your "swimming gears" to go faster.
... And for those of you approaching the elite level, you must learn

to

Quoted message said:

swim fairly fast, without exerting yourself so much that you blow up

on

Quoted message said:

the run. And the same fundamentals that let the beginner acquire ease
also let the more advanced athlete develop efficient "gearing" for
swimming faster when necessary." from Triathlon Swimming Made Easy

I have not read about "gearing". The book I have is "Swimming Made
Easy", which I believe was published earlier than the book you mention.
Terry must have come up with the notion of "gearing" at a later date.

Frankly, I don't find the idea all that powerful. I believe he would
do his readers a much greater service by pointing out that "slide and
glide" on both sides of their stroke must be abandoned if it is their
desire to swim at high speeds while not possessing an excellent flutter
kick. He could then point them at the Grant Hackett video I make
reference to as a very concrete example of one swimmer who took "slide
and glide" to the elite level with some significant changes to it. He
could of course include all his obligatory stuff about staying
slippery.

Instead of making broad metaphors, why doesn't Terry give more concrete
ways in which elite swimmers are plying their craft? Wouldn't that be
more useful?

Eric

PS Please don't respond if you haven't even seen the video. Your knee
jerk reaction with all these posts is to support TI, as if the material
is divinely inspired. You have a religious epistemology with respect
to swimming, not a scientific one.

Quoted message said:

Instead of making broad metaphors,
why doesn't Terry give more concrete
ways in which elite swimmers are
plying their craft? Wouldn't that
be more useful?

There are reams of books about the elites.

Quoted message said:

PS Please don't respond if you
haven't even seen the video.

I've seen that video of Hackett and will
respond when I choose.

Quoted message said:

Your knee jerk reaction ...

You talk about being scientific, but resort
to an ad hominem attack. When are you going
to realize that these attacks diminish you
more than me?

Man o' Tea said:

Quoted message said:

Instead of making broad metaphors,
why doesn't Terry give more concrete
ways in which elite swimmers are
plying their craft? Wouldn't that
be more useful?

There are reams of books about the elites.

Quoted message said:

PS Please don't respond if you
haven't even seen the video.

I've seen that video of Hackett and will
respond when I choose.

Quoted message said:

Your knee jerk reaction ...

You talk about being scientific, but resort
to an ad hominem attack. When are you going
to realize that these attacks diminish you
more than me?

It would be difficult to diminish you more, since your contributions
consist mainly of copying quotes from TI material, and trying to
confuse any real issue we delve into here on the group. And that
material was certainly pretty weak in this instance - talking about
"gears" meaning faster arms, legs, and core body movements for faster
swimming. But oh, stay as smooth as possible while you do all that.
Good grief.

The real meat of the post you completely ignore. Evidently by your
reply, you feel Terry rightly flies above the fray, painting broad,
lyrical metaphors about swimming. And it's up to other books or us
users here to flush out the exact how and why of elites, when they
leave the simple "slide and glide" routine behind. You support "slide
and glide" with the passion of the true believer. That leads to
problems - when a Dave Davies, who most definitely doesn't swim TI,
takes a bronze medal in the 1500m, you try desperately to repudiate his
style by saying he's kicking as much as Larsen Jensen. Which at least
three users on the group flatly rejected as absurd, and told you so.
So we have to expend lots of energy because you have an agenda, and are
not simply looking at the data.

Eric

Quoted message said:

It would be difficult to diminish
you more, since your contributions
consist mainly of copying quotes
from TI material, ...

Again you are making staements that are
simply not true. When they quote at all,
my posts include quotes from many
sources.

Quoted message said:

and trying to confuse any real
issue we delve into here on the
group.

Apparently any opposing viewpoint is seen
as confusion. I was unaware that r.s.s.
had become that much like Pravda.

Quoted message said:

... when a Dave Davies, who most
definitely doesn't swim TI, takes a
bronze medal in the 1500m, you try
desperately to repudiate his style
by saying he's kicking as much as
Larsen Jensen.

Ah, the straw man again. I do not
repudiate Davies, I repudiate the idea
that Davies is *the* model for mediocre
kickers. Also, I note that Davies takes
as many kicks as Jensen, which is simply
a fact.

Quoted message said:

Which at least three users on the
group flatly rejected as absurd,
and told you so.

Which all of them did by creating a straw
man, which none of them can move beyond.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

... when a Dave Davies, who most
definitely doesn't swim TI, takes a
bronze medal in the 1500m, you try
desperately to repudiate his style
by saying he's kicking as much as
Larsen Jensen.

Ah, the straw man again. I do not
repudiate Davies, I repudiate the idea
that Davies is *the* model for mediocre
kickers. Also, I note that Davies takes
as many kicks as Jensen, which is simply
a fact.

I think you are not using the concept of Straw Man correctly. It is
YOU who have set up the Straw Man, not others. (This is called
"projective identification" in psychiatric circles ... I'm not saying
you are crazy, we all do this from time to time 🙂 A Straw Man
argument is one in which the user sets up an argument which runs
counter to their position, and then proceeds to demolish it as proof
that they are correct. But the discerning listener will point out that
their original idea is not valid (a "straw man"😉, and therefore
demolishing that position accomplishes nothing.

In this case, you are creating a "straw man" argument by saying that
Dave Davies is a big kicker. That allows you to then say that his
style is not useful for middling to weak kickers because of this, when
in fact Larry has been preaching the opposite for years. Namely, that
a high turn-over style with no glide maybe the best style for a weak
kicker.

Your "straw man" is supported by the fact that Davies takes as many
kicks in a pool length as Jensen. But as pointed out, we know that the
force of each of these kicks is MUCH smaller than Jensen, because
Davies is stroking at such a higher rate, and it's the arms which do
most of the work for swimmers, not their feet. Hence there's no way
that Davies is kicking as forcefully or as effectively as Larsen
Jensen. Furthermore, we have all kinds of elite females who use a
similar style as Davies, for example, Brooke Bennett and Janet Evans.
In the case of Evans, as you may recall, I posted direct quotes from
her which indicated that she was a weak kicker in her day. The quote
is this:

"I was always in the back of the lane in kick sets," Evans chuckled.
"Have you ever seen my feet? They're a size 6, tiny! I think I used my
kick simply to keep the tempo of my stroke going."

That kills your "straw man". Therefore your conclusion that a high
turnover style like a Davies needs a kick is false, since the original
premise of your argument is wrong.

So we're back to Larry's original idea - verified these many years.
Short stroking, high turnover style is effective for weak kickers, and
is something all weak kicking rec/master swimmers should try out to see
if it works for them. I added the caveat for males which I think is
valid - you need to be thin for this to work well for you.

But it was not my intent with this post to rehash the main topics of
the previous post. I was hoping the brilliant video of Hackett might
spur some response from other listeners with regard to the "slide and
glide" technique promoted by Laughlin and Lemley. Sadly, so far it has
not.

Eric

Straw Man: "An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted
or defeated." -dictionary.com

Quoted message said:

In this case, you are creating a
"straw man" argument by saying that
Dave Davies is a big kicker.

No, you are creating a straw man argument by saying that I claimed that
Davies is just as big a kicker as Jensen. Most people assume that
Jensen is a stronger kicker than Davies. Despite the lack of objective
measurements, I would agree. But Davies is a vigorous kicker, and
kicks just about as often as Jensen.

Quoted message said:

But as pointed out, we know that
the force of each of these kicks
is MUCH smaller than Jensen, ...

Just who pointed that out? We have no way to measure just how much
propulsion a given kick contributes to whole stroke swimming. So I
would say that your above statement is false. We don't know, we
assume.

Man o' Tea said:

Straw Man: "An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted
or defeated." -dictionary.com

Quoted message said:

In this case, you are creating a
"straw man" argument by saying that
Dave Davies is a big kicker.

No, you are creating a straw man argument by saying that I claimed

that

Quoted message said:

Davies is just as big a kicker as Jensen. Most people assume that
Jensen is a stronger kicker than Davies. Despite the lack of

objective

Quoted message said:

measurements, I would agree. But Davies is a vigorous kicker, and
kicks just about as often as Jensen.

Quoted message said:

But as pointed out, we know that
the force of each of these kicks
is MUCH smaller than Jensen, ...

Just who pointed that out? We have no way to measure just how much
propulsion a given kick contributes to whole stroke swimming. So I
would say that your above statement is false. We don't know, we
assume.

Donald Rumsfeld has got nothing on you, MoT. Remember this quote?

"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know.
There are known unkowns. That is to say, there are things we know we
don't know.
But, there are also unknown unknowns. These are things we don't know we
don't know."

If it walked like a duck, and quacked like a duck, you would say ...
ducks are further proof that we should all be swimming TI 🙂

I think I have to go away for a while. Otherwise I'll have to increase
my Lithium, and I don't want to do that.

Eric

Quoted message said:

Donald Rumsfeld has got nothing
on you, MoT.

Just a many millions of oil money.

Quoted message said:

"These are things we don't know we
don't know."

"... it's not what people don't know
that hurts them. It's what they do
know that just ain't so."
- Will Rogers

Eric, don't go. We are all having a good time reading you exchange with
Donal. You both repeated the same arguments many times but you both add
something new that makes the exchange both interesting and humorous. We
will all contribute to get you some Prozac, if it'll get you to keep
posting.

We will only accept your resignation if Larry or Diablo agree to take
over for you. Otherwise, you must continue, and the same goes for
Donal.

Andres

Quoted message said:

Man o' Tea said:

Straw Man: "An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily

refuted

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or defeated." -dictionary.com

Quoted message said:

In this case, you are creating a
"straw man" argument by saying that
Dave Davies is a big kicker.

No, you are creating a straw man argument by saying that I claimed

that

Quoted message said:

Davies is just as big a kicker as Jensen. Most people assume that
Jensen is a stronger kicker than Davies. Despite the lack of

objective

Quoted message said:

measurements, I would agree. But Davies is a vigorous kicker, and
kicks just about as often as Jensen.

Quoted message said:

But as pointed out, we know that
the force of each of these kicks
is MUCH smaller than Jensen, ...

Just who pointed that out? We have no way to measure just how much
propulsion a given kick contributes to whole stroke swimming. So I
would say that your above statement is false. We don't know, we
assume.

Donald Rumsfeld has got nothing on you, MoT. Remember this quote?

"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know.
There are known unkowns. That is to say, there are things we know we
don't know.
But, there are also unknown unknowns. These are things we don't know

we

Quoted message said:

don't know."

If it walked like a duck, and quacked like a duck, you would say ...
ducks are further proof that we should all be swimming TI 🙂

I think I have to go away for a while. Otherwise I'll have to

increase

Quoted message said:

my Lithium, and I don't want to do that.

Eric

Eric, don't go. We are all having a good time reading you exchange with
Donal. You both repeated the same arguments many times but you both add
something new that makes the exchange both interesting and humorous. We
will all contribute to get you some Prozac, if it'll get you to keep
posting.

We will only accept your resignation if Larry or Diablo agree to take
over for you. Otherwise, you must continue, and the same goes for
Donal.

Andres

Quoted message said:

Man o' Tea said:

Straw Man: "An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily

refuted

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or defeated." -dictionary.com

Quoted message said:

In this case, you are creating a
"straw man" argument by saying that
Dave Davies is a big kicker.

No, you are creating a straw man argument by saying that I claimed

that

Quoted message said:

Davies is just as big a kicker as Jensen. Most people assume that
Jensen is a stronger kicker than Davies. Despite the lack of

objective

Quoted message said:

measurements, I would agree. But Davies is a vigorous kicker, and
kicks just about as often as Jensen.

Quoted message said:

But as pointed out, we know that
the force of each of these kicks
is MUCH smaller than Jensen, ...

Just who pointed that out? We have no way to measure just how much
propulsion a given kick contributes to whole stroke swimming. So I
would say that your above statement is false. We don't know, we
assume.

Donald Rumsfeld has got nothing on you, MoT. Remember this quote?

"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know.
There are known unkowns. That is to say, there are things we know we
don't know.
But, there are also unknown unknowns. These are things we don't know

we

Quoted message said:

don't know."

If it walked like a duck, and quacked like a duck, you would say ...
ducks are further proof that we should all be swimming TI 🙂

I think I have to go away for a while. Otherwise I'll have to

increase

Quoted message said:

my Lithium, and I don't want to do that.

Eric

Quoted message said:

Eric, don't go. We are all having a good time reading you exchange with
Donal. You both repeated the same arguments many times but you both add
something new that makes the exchange both interesting and humorous. We
will all contribute to get you some Prozac, if it'll get you to keep
posting.

We will only accept your resignation if Larry or Diablo agree to take
over for you. Otherwise, you must continue, and the same goes for
Donal.

Andres

Martin, where are you when we need you?

Ruth Kazez

rtk said:

Martin, where are you when we
need you?

He's trying to decide if he's
going to use 'Johnny Weismuller'
or 'Gertrude Ederle' next.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Eric, don't go. We are all having a good time reading you exchange with
Donal. You both repeated the same arguments many times but you both add
something new that makes the exchange both interesting and humorous. We
will all contribute to get you some Prozac, if it'll get you to keep
posting.

We will only accept your resignation if Larry or Diablo agree to take
over for you. Otherwise, you must continue, and the same goes for
Donal.

Andres

don't drag me into this 😉