Re: Road vs. Cross

Dan Daniel said:

Drop handlebars are great.

For road racers. Not for everybody. Flat bars are a much better bet
for most people, and the bike-riding world's predilections show that.

It is a misguided and/or traditional imitation of racers that puts
drop bars on bikes that are not raced or even ridden for maximum
speed. In places where there is no established program of
professional racing, the drop bar is almost completely unknown,
although transportational cycling is ubiquitous in many of the same
places.

Quoted message said:

They give you a variety of positions

This is true, but the flipside is that they eradicate the single most
satisfactory hand position. For most cyclists it's a very poor
bargain.

Quoted message said:

and are much more comfortable on longer rides.

Round-the-world bike rides and round-the-clock motorcycle rallies seem
to exhibit the flat bar's suitability for endurance riding. When
comfort over great distances and durations is a more important
criterion than utmost physical performance or aerodynamics, the flat
bar is a near-universal choice.

Quoted message said:

Riding on the brake hoods, the most common position, is analogous to
riding on flat handlebars except that your whole upper body will be
more relaxed.

Nonsense. If this were so, then why do all pedal rickshaws,
motorcycles, pushcarts, mowers, etc., etc., uniformly feature a
different sort of grip-- one comparable if not identical to a
bicycle's flat bar? Bicycles are not some sort of magical exception
to ordinary ergonomics, though many cyclists through the ages have
suggested as much. Applying weight with the palm of the hand across
the breadth of a cylindrical grip is much more satisfactory than doing
so with the web of the thumb, as upon a brake hood.

Quoted message said:

Stand up with your hands hanging down. Lift naturally
and your hands will stay with the palms facing in- like riding the
hoods. Do it again except twist your wrists so your palms face down,
like using flat bars. Feel the tension and twist in your arms and
shoulders? It only gets worse over time.

You ignore the overruling fact that when one rests his hands on a flat
bar, he is not lifting them or his arms, but is in fact pushing down
on them with some of the weight of his torso. Under these conditions,
a flat bar with some degree of sweep is the most relaxed accomodation
available. Some drop bar positions are so unsatissfactory, however,
that a rider will use his low back muscles to unweight his hands when
using those positions.

I submit that part of the advantage of a drop bar for its use is
precisely that it isn't too comfortable. Pushing pedals hard supports
some of the weight that would otherwise rest upon the hands, so an
unforgiving bar serves as a sort of spur to the rider who is trying to
extract his utmost effort. That, and its naturally superior
aerodynamics, make the drop bar the best choice for contests of speed
that are too prolonged to allow the use of a time-trial-style cowhorn
bar.

Chalo Colina

(Chalo) said:

Dan Daniel said:

Drop handlebars are great.

For road racers. Not for everybody. Flat bars are a much better bet
for most people, and the bike-riding world's predilections show that.

It is a misguided and/or traditional imitation of racers that puts
drop bars on bikes that are not raced or even ridden for maximum
speed. In places where there is no established program of
professional racing, the drop bar is almost completely unknown,
although transportational cycling is ubiquitous in many of the same
places.

Quoted message said:

They give you a variety of positions

This is true, but the flipside is that they eradicate the single most
satisfactory hand position. For most cyclists it's a very poor
bargain.

Quoted message said:

and are much more comfortable on longer rides.

Round-the-world bike rides and round-the-clock motorcycle rallies seem
to exhibit the flat bar's suitability for endurance riding. When
comfort over great distances and durations is a more important
criterion than utmost physical performance or aerodynamics, the flat
bar is a near-universal choice.

Quoted message said:

Riding on the brake hoods, the most common position, is analogous to
riding on flat handlebars except that your whole upper body will be
more relaxed.

Nonsense. If this were so, then why do all pedal rickshaws,
motorcycles, pushcarts, mowers, etc., etc., uniformly feature a
different sort of grip-- one comparable if not identical to a
bicycle's flat bar? Bicycles are not some sort of magical exception
to ordinary ergonomics, though many cyclists through the ages have
suggested as much. Applying weight with the palm of the hand across
the breadth of a cylindrical grip is much more satisfactory than doing
so with the web of the thumb, as upon a brake hood.

Quoted message said:

Stand up with your hands hanging down. Lift naturally
and your hands will stay with the palms facing in- like riding the
hoods. Do it again except twist your wrists so your palms face down,
like using flat bars. Feel the tension and twist in your arms and
shoulders? It only gets worse over time.

You ignore the overruling fact that when one rests his hands on a flat
bar, he is not lifting them or his arms, but is in fact pushing down
on them with some of the weight of his torso. Under these conditions,
a flat bar with some degree of sweep is the most relaxed accomodation
available. Some drop bar positions are so unsatissfactory, however,
that a rider will use his low back muscles to unweight his hands when
using those positions.

I submit that part of the advantage of a drop bar for its use is
precisely that it isn't too comfortable. Pushing pedals hard supports
some of the weight that would otherwise rest upon the hands, so an
unforgiving bar serves as a sort of spur to the rider who is trying to
extract his utmost effort. That, and its naturally superior
aerodynamics, make the drop bar the best choice for contests of speed
that are too prolonged to allow the use of a time-trial-style cowhorn
bar.

Chalo Colina

Obviously I have never ridden a bike with flat bars that are properly
set up. The last bike where flat bars worked well for long periods was
my Schwinn that I had when ten or so. And those weren't what I would
call flat bars in today's terminology. They were swept back and my
hands were at more like 45-50 degrees rather than 85-90 degrees.

When you speak of flat bars, what exactly do you mean? When I hear
that term, I think of something like this-

http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product.aspx?i=HB707A13

3-5 degrees of bend, maybe, etc. So at best I'd say that you and I
just have different experiences, but something tells me that there is
much more to what you are saying than that. If you have any links that
show the bars that you have found so effective, I'd like to see them.
Thanks.

chump-<< Drop handlebars are great.

For road racers. Not for everybody. Flat bars are a much better bet
for most people, and the bike-riding world's predilections show that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Why a fit is so important. Alas, the bike shops that sell these bikes can't
even spell 'bike fit'...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

On 25 Sep 2004 13:21:45 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla
Campagnolo ) wrote:

Why did you insert the word 'chump' on the same line as a quotation of
my post?

Quoted message said:

chump-<< Drop handlebars are great.

^^^^^^

Dan Daniel said:

On 25 Sep 2004 13:21:45 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla
Campagnolo ) wrote:

Why did you insert the word 'chump' on the same line as a quotation of
my post?

Quoted message said:

chump-<< Drop handlebars are great.

Chump is Chalo.

Bill "and vice versa" S.

Dan Daniel said:

On 25 Sep 2004 13:21:45 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla
Campagnolo ) wrote:

Why did you insert the word 'chump' on the same line as a quotation of
my post?

Quoted message said:

chump-<< Drop handlebars are great.

Peter Chisholm, who is otherwise a well respected member of the cycling,
bicycle mechanic and rec.bicycles.tech communities, insists on using AOL
and its non-standard, grossly inferior quoting style.

Presumably "chump" refers to Chalo Colina whose email is
<[email hidden]>. Peter's post is in error in that he
attributes a quote to Chalo that was actually by Dan Daniel but quoted
by Chalo.

--
Tom Sherman

Tom Sherman said:

Dan Daniel said:

On 25 Sep 2004 13:21:45 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla
Campagnolo ) wrote:

Why did you insert the word 'chump' on the same line as a quotation of
my post?

Quoted message said:

chump-<< Drop handlebars are great.

Peter Chisholm, who is otherwise a well respected member of the cycling,
bicycle mechanic and rec.bicycles.tech communities, insists on using AOL
and its non-standard, grossly inferior quoting style.

"Otherwise.... respected" ... I like that phrasing 🙂 Well, I have
always read and respected Peter's contributions here, so I can forgive
him his poor choice of ISPs....

Quoted message said:

Presumably "chump" refers to Chalo Colina whose email is
<[email hidden]>. Peter's post is in error in that he
attributes a quote to Chalo that was actually by Dan Daniel but quoted
by Chalo.

Thanks to you and Bill Sornson for pointing out Chalo's email name.
Combined with the obvious AOL-neccesitated formatting of Peter's
reply, I now understand what happened. I may very well be a chump in
real life, and I may often play one on Usenet, but from what I've seen
it takes quite a bit of pushing and poking for Peter to be less than
helpful and respectful.

Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Presumably "chump" refers to Chalo Colina whose email is
<[email hidden]>.

I am compelled to take this opportunity to explain my choice of email
address, since it's been the object of some confusion and a little
derision since I began circulating it on Useset. It dates back to a
time when the state of my internet service, software and expertise
meant that in order to send attachments, I had to beg a web mail
interface from somebody, and that somebody was Hotmail. Signing up
for Hotmail just so I could send files seemed pretty chumpy to me, so
I chose the name "chumpychump" for my mailbox.

Since then, I have used it for other things only a chump would use his
primary email address for, like posting to Usenet, soliciting
information from untrustworthy web-based businesses, and gaining
access to commercial sites that require the visitor to provide an
email address.

Chalo Colina

Dan-<< Why did you insert the word 'chump' on the same line as a quotation of
my post? >><BR><BR>

Because I was responding to 'chumpy chump', the Chaola something dude, not you.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Tomsherman wrote and quoteth-<< Presumably "chump" refers to Chalo Colina whose
email is
<[email hidden]>. Peter's post is in error in that he
attributes a quote to Chalo that was actually by Dan Daniel but quoted
by Chalo. >><BR><BR>

huh???, did I doze off???

Geez, the intenet, a passing fad...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

On 27 Sep 2004 13:10:20 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

Dan-<< Why did you insert the word 'chump' on the same line as a quotation of
my post? >><BR><BR>

Because I was responding to 'chumpy chump', the Chaola something dude, not you.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Have you thought about learning to do proper quotation and attribution
formatting and avoid these kind of mistakes? I know AOL makes this
hard, but I've seen others who handle it without problems.

"Dan Daniel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

On 27 Sep 2004 13:10:20 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

Dan-<< Why did you insert the word 'chump' on the same line as a
quotation of my post? >><BR><BR>

Because I was responding to 'chumpy chump', the Chaola something
dude, not you.

Have you thought about learning to do proper quotation and attribution
formatting and avoid these kind of mistakes? I know AOL makes this
hard, but I've seen others who handle it without problems.

Heh. We've been down this road before. M. Chisholm believes himself above
such ordinary consideration for others.

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Tomsherman wrote and quoteth-<< Presumably "chump" refers to Chalo Colina whose
email is
<[email hidden]>. Peter's post is in error in that he
attributes a quote to Chalo that was actually by Dan Daniel but quoted
by Chalo. >><BR><BR>

huh???, did I doze off???

Geez, the intenet, a passing fad...

Yes, there is the real Internet out there beyond AOL. 😉

--
Tom Sherman

(Chalo) said:

Since then, I have used it for other things only a chump would use his
primary email address for, like posting to Usenet, soliciting
information from untrustworthy web-based businesses, and gaining
access to commercial sites that require the visitor to provide an
email address.

Perfectly reasonable. I know a number of system admins who do similar
things, sometimes intentionally concocting usernames that are
calculated to be as insulting as possible to the second-lowest life
form currently on the planet; spammers.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Dan->Have you thought about learning to do proper quotation and attribution

Quoted message said:

formatting and avoid these kind of mistakes? I know AOL makes this
hard, but I've seen others who handle it without problems.

I use the 'quote' button after highlighting what I want to quote. I see all
other's posts the same regardless of the ISP...maybe y'all should switch to
AOL..sounds like it's your problem, not mine.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Tom->Yes, there is the real Internet out there beyond AOL. 😉

'Real' internet...an oxymoron if I ever heard one.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

On 28 Sep 2004 12:52:09 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

Dan->Have you thought about learning to do proper quotation and attribution

Quoted message said:

formatting and avoid these kind of mistakes? I know AOL makes this
hard, but I've seen others who handle it without problems.

I use the 'quote' button after highlighting what I want to quote. I see all
other's posts the same regardless of the ISP...maybe y'all should switch to
AOL..sounds like it's your problem, not mine.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Ok, I'll back up here. I posted something that had the phrase, 'Drop
bars are great,' in it. Chalo responded, inserting his first remark
after my phrase. You respond to him, selected what you wanted to quote
*which included* my phrase, 'Drop bars are great.'

I go to read this on my non-AOL ISP, using my non-AOL news reader
Agent, and I see...

chump-<< Drop handlebars are great.

For road racers. Not for everybody. Flat bars are a much better bet
for most people, and the bike-riding world's predilections show that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Why a fit is so important. Alas, the bike shops that sell these bikes
can't
even spell 'bike fit'...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

So the word chump has been inserted by you on the same line as my
remark. There are no other atrributions visible in my non-AOL news
reader. Chalo has 'chumpychump' in his email address, not his screen
name, on my non-AOL news reader, and since your post has absolutely no
email addresses or standard formatting for quotes and attributions
visible on my non-AOL news reader, I wonder and ask in post why you
put the word 'chump' in front of a quote from me.

And this is *my* problem? [censored] that.

You made a mistake, put your AOL quotation markers one line too high
or just didn't notice the full flow of the thread and attributed a
line to Chalo that was made by me. That's the problem here. It's
*your* mistake. Not AOL, not antiquated pre-AOL Usenet protocols and
traditions, not non-AOL news readers, not all the people in the US and
the rest of the world who do not use AOL.

Well, feel free to respond and I will read and think about whatever
you say. But beyond that I doubt I will carry this any further. I have
better things to do, and I for one would much rather see you continue
making your very significant and helpful contributions to the
newsgroup as a whole, however you may format it, rather than
continuing in a pissing match about AOL, etc. Whatever I and others
may think about AOL, it gives you access to Usenet, and people like me
access to your experience and knowledge of bicycles.

Tom Sherman said:

Peter Chisholm, who is otherwise a well respected member of the cycling,
bicycle mechanic and rec.bicycles.tech communities, insists on using AOL
and its non-standard, grossly inferior quoting style.

And on complaining about other people's quoting, which is grossly
hypocritical.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Dan->And this is *my* problem? [censored] that.

Calm down, why do you see it as a 'problem' at all. It's a '[censored]' newsgroup
about bicycles for [censored]'s sake.....

Dan> That's the problem here. It's

Quoted message said:

*your* mistake

OK, I'll try to get over it, it is SO important, afterall.

Dan>Well, feel free to respond and I will read and think about whatever

Quoted message said:

you say. But beyond that I doubt I will carry this any further. I have
better things to do, and I for one would much rather see you continue
making your very significant and helpful contributions to the
newsgroup as a whole, however you may format it, rather than
continuing in a pissing match about AOL, etc. Whatever I and others
may think about AOL, it gives you access to Usenet, and people like me
access to your experience and knowledge of bicycles.

................

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"