Re: Returning after cancer

Ells Bells said:

I also used Lance Armstrong as inspiration. My chemo started the same
week the Tour de France started, and what a boost his story gave me.
I cheered and cheered, for him and for me, and imagined my own
personal challenges I would take on once my treatments were over and I
was "back on my bike."

I've always been sort of a slowpoke about things. Like, have I really
made any progress at all since first finding MFW and learning what to
do to get fit? Since learning how to squat properly? Since making a
commitment to lose weight and get fit? Hardly seems so. But I was
making certain progress last winter and spring and felt that I finally
had the groove down at last. I was even thinking of following in
Delenn's footsteps and working towards a race. The cancer diagnosis
didn't stop all that completely, just slowed it down and made me focus
on retaining what fitness I had rather than getting any more.

Along the way over the past three years I've had periods of what I call
"practicing maintenance." I wasn't at goal, but I was taking a break
from a strenous assault on my fat for whatever reason. It became a PART
of the process rather than an absence from the process.

I feel much better about my chances of maintaining now that I am at goal
because I've spent three years practicing how to eat at goal.

There's no rush, you have from now until the day you die to master all
this. Be kind to yourself and trust that you'll take baby step after
baby step until you're ready for giant leaps.

By the way, I'm currently reading Lance Armstrong's book and I'm having
a bit of trouble being inspired by him. I'm glad he loves his mother,
but he doesn't seem like a very grounded person to me. He has a
Hollywood-style entourage for every event, for example. And I'm turned
off by things like his inability to be there when his wife got pregnant.
(Hint, if you can't even be there for THAT event then chances are you
won't be there for the fathering, either.)

But the biggest beef I've got is the way he nearly died from a bike
crash from not wearing his helmet while racing on mountains after the
entire world came together to cure him from cancer. That's when I
started thinking maybe he was SUPPOSED to be dead.

Or maybe I just can't stand having heros. They're always so tragically
flawed when you take a good close look. I always choose Gurus that are
already patently flawed. For example, my main three for weight loss are
Bill Phillips (flaws-a-plenty), Lyle McDonald ('nuff said) and Mistress
Krista (flawless in every way but she doesn't think so).

Delenn

"Delenn" wrote

Quoted message said:

Or maybe I just can't stand having heros. They're always so tragically
flawed when you take a good close look. I always choose Gurus that are
already patently flawed. For example, my main three for weight loss are
Bill Phillips (flaws-a-plenty), Lyle McDonald ('nuff said) and Mistress
Krista (flawless in every way but she doesn't think so).

Am I on your short list as a pointy stick guru?

<preening>

"Delenn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

By the way, I'm currently reading Lance Armstrong's book and I'm having a
bit of trouble being inspired by him. I'm glad he loves his mother, but
he doesn't seem like a very grounded person to me. He has a
Hollywood-style entourage for every event, for example.

I'm not about to comment on anything else you've said, agree with most of
it.

But. You don't really know how bike racing works. It may look like an
individual sport, but it isn't. Basically, if you are riding on your own on
the flat, you will need to put out ~300W to go at 25mph (assuming you're not
doing a time trial so the TT kit is illegal). If you're riding behind one
person, you need only ~210W. Behind 2 people, ~170W. In the middle of a big
group, <100W.

So, it's not like distance running where really being part of a team doesn't
mean much. Your cycling team-mates can do a lot to help you out. If some
freak accident took out all of Armstrong's team-mates five minutes into the
Tour de France, even if the rules were changed so he didn't lose time in the
team time-trial, he almost certainly wouldn't win, or probably even get a
particularly high placing.

If you want to be a pro cyclist, then you _cannot_ be without a team. You
won't even be allowed to race in most races.

In the Tour de France, like a lot of other races, every team has x riders
(for the Tour, x=9). Every team has a directeur sportif and a mechanic in a
car following, most if not all teams have a second team car with the race.
Every team has a load of spare kit so the riders don't have to wait longer
than necessary when they have mechanicals. Every team has at least one
soigneur (=masseur, food prepared, general expert-rider-helping person), and
a doctor. Most of the top riders will have a soigneur whose main job is to
look after them, and most teams will have a few more assorted extras.

So it's not like Armstrong is the one guy with 25 Hollywood-style
hangers-on, it's more like a team of nine riders and 15 or so team support
staff, and most teams are like that.

He's also not always the main guy - if he's riding in a classic, he might
well be riding for George Hincapie, for example.

Peter

Peter Allen said:

So it's not like Armstrong is the one guy with 25 Hollywood-style
hangers-on, it's more like a team of nine riders and 15 or so team support
staff, and most teams are like that.

He brought at least two guy friends with him to a sperm bank. IIRC one
was just some guy he knew who was along to drive. He brought another
couple of friends with him to each of the doctor visits he went on when
deciding where to do cancer treatment. (He also brought his mother and
girlfriend, but that isn't particularly noteworthy.)

He got the cancer diagnosis and called a teammate up in France and the
teammate jumped on a plane to get to his side.

I understand what you mean about cycling pelotons. I'm talking about a
guy who calls his agent and his lawyer and his coach so they can all go
with him on errands. His mother set up a visiting schedule so he'd
never be without attendants. I don't mean nursing attendants, I mean
entourage attendants.

I don't really mean to dis this, just to say that it didn't feel like a
lifestyle I could relate to. I've been on a team before and I know what
friends are like. This reminded me more of Hilary Swank thanking her
best friend, her P.R. agent, in the academy awards. A woman whose best
friend is someone she pays to say nice things about her is not a woman
who is well grounded.

Delenn

In article said:

Peter Allen said:

So it's not like Armstrong is the one guy with 25 Hollywood-style
hangers-on, it's more like a team of nine riders and 15 or so team support
staff, and most teams are like that.

He brought at least two guy friends with him to a sperm bank. IIRC one
was just some guy he knew who was along to drive. He brought another
couple of friends with him to each of the doctor visits he went on when
deciding where to do cancer treatment. (He also brought his mother and
girlfriend, but that isn't particularly noteworthy.)

He got the cancer diagnosis and called a teammate up in France and the
teammate jumped on a plane to get to his side.

I understand what you mean about cycling pelotons. I'm talking about a
guy who calls his agent and his lawyer and his coach so they can all go
with him on errands. His mother set up a visiting schedule so he'd
never be without attendants. I don't mean nursing attendants, I mean
entourage attendants.

I don't really mean to dis this, just to say that it didn't feel like a
lifestyle I could relate to. I've been on a team before and I know what
friends are like. This reminded me more of Hilary Swank thanking her
best friend, her P.R. agent, in the academy awards. A woman whose best
friend is someone she pays to say nice things about her is not a woman
who is well grounded.

How do you get that? You know absolutely nothing about Hilary Swank to be
making that kind of judgement call. The fact the women is in her employ
may have nothing to do with their friendship.

Hobbes said:

In article said:

Peter Allen said:

So it's not like Armstrong is the one guy with 25 Hollywood-style
hangers-on, it's more like a team of nine riders and 15 or so team support
staff, and most teams are like that.

He brought at least two guy friends with him to a sperm bank. IIRC one
was just some guy he knew who was along to drive. He brought another
couple of friends with him to each of the doctor visits he went on when
deciding where to do cancer treatment. (He also brought his mother and
girlfriend, but that isn't particularly noteworthy.)

He got the cancer diagnosis and called a teammate up in France and the
teammate jumped on a plane to get to his side.

I understand what you mean about cycling pelotons. I'm talking about a
guy who calls his agent and his lawyer and his coach so they can all go
with him on errands. His mother set up a visiting schedule so he'd
never be without attendants. I don't mean nursing attendants, I mean
entourage attendants.

I don't really mean to dis this, just to say that it didn't feel like a
lifestyle I could relate to. I've been on a team before and I know what
friends are like. This reminded me more of Hilary Swank thanking her
best friend, her P.R. agent, in the academy awards. A woman whose best
friend is someone she pays to say nice things about her is not a woman
who is well grounded.

How do you get that? You know absolutely nothing about Hilary Swank to be
making that kind of judgement call. The fact the women is in her employ
may have nothing to do with their friendship.

What a weird thing to object to. The part where I was *really*
objectionable was where I was questioning a guy's need to have lots of
friends around when he's just diagnosed with cancer. On reflection I
realize that it may have been an aberration because of the unusual
situation he was in. I'd guess my day-to-day life would change
significantly if I were told I had career and probably life-ending
disease suddenly.

But you're right, I don't know Hilary Swank. (Good call.) I just
thought it was funny that she called her public relations person her
best friend. It's like saying your psychiatrist is the only friend who
really understands you. It doesn't count if they're PAID to be that
kind of friend. But maybe this was her long-time best friend who was so
good at saying nice things about her that Hilary gave her that as an
official paying job.

Delenn

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:32:27 -0500, Delenn <[email hidden]> wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

Hobbes said:

In article said:

Peter Allen wrote:

>So it's not like Armstrong is the one guy with 25 Hollywood-style
>hangers-on, it's more like a team of nine riders and 15 or so team support
>staff, and most teams are like that.

He brought at least two guy friends with him to a sperm bank. IIRC one
was just some guy he knew who was along to drive. He brought another
couple of friends with him to each of the doctor visits he went on when
deciding where to do cancer treatment. (He also brought his mother and
girlfriend, but that isn't particularly noteworthy.)

He got the cancer diagnosis and called a teammate up in France and the
teammate jumped on a plane to get to his side.

I understand what you mean about cycling pelotons. I'm talking about a
guy who calls his agent and his lawyer and his coach so they can all go
with him on errands. His mother set up a visiting schedule so he'd
never be without attendants. I don't mean nursing attendants, I mean
entourage attendants.

I don't really mean to dis this, just to say that it didn't feel like a
lifestyle I could relate to. I've been on a team before and I know what
friends are like. This reminded me more of Hilary Swank thanking her
best friend, her P.R. agent, in the academy awards. A woman whose best
friend is someone she pays to say nice things about her is not a woman
who is well grounded.

How do you get that? You know absolutely nothing about Hilary Swank to be
making that kind of judgement call. The fact the women is in her employ
may have nothing to do with their friendship.

What a weird thing to object to. The part where I was *really*
objectionable was where I was questioning a guy's need to have lots of
friends around when he's just diagnosed with cancer. On reflection I
realize that it may have been an aberration because of the unusual
situation he was in. I'd guess my day-to-day life would change
significantly if I were told I had career and probably life-ending
disease suddenly.

But you're right, I don't know Hilary Swank. (Good call.) I just
thought it was funny that she called her public relations person her
best friend. It's like saying your psychiatrist is the only friend who
really understands you. It doesn't count if they're PAID to be that
kind of friend. But maybe this was her long-time best friend who was so
good at saying nice things about her that Hilary gave her that as an
official paying job.

I could see having my best friend be my public relations person. As a
matter of fact, it makes perfect sense to me as a good friend will
usually act in that role for nobodies like you and me anyway. Why not
have them do it when you hit it big too.

Delenn said:

He brought at least two guy friends with him to a sperm bank. IIRC one
was just some guy he knew who was along to drive. He brought another
couple of friends with him to each of the doctor visits he went on when
deciding where to do cancer treatment. (He also brought his mother and
girlfriend, but that isn't particularly noteworthy.)

He got the cancer diagnosis and called a teammate up in France and the
teammate jumped on a plane to get to his side.

You're unbelieveable.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

In article <[email hidden]>, Scott Johnson

Quoted message said:

Delenn said:

He brought at least two guy friends with him to a sperm bank. IIRC one
was just some guy he knew who was along to drive. He brought another
couple of friends with him to each of the doctor visits he went on when
deciding where to do cancer treatment. (He also brought his mother and
girlfriend, but that isn't particularly noteworthy.)

He got the cancer diagnosis and called a teammate up in France and the
teammate jumped on a plane to get to his side.

You're unbelieveable.

Unbelievable. And she doesn't even seem to realize it...

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Scott Johnson

Quoted message said:

Delenn said:

He brought at least two guy friends with him to a sperm bank. IIRC one
was just some guy he knew who was along to drive. He brought another
couple of friends with him to each of the doctor visits he went on when
deciding where to do cancer treatment. (He also brought his mother and
girlfriend, but that isn't particularly noteworthy.)

He got the cancer diagnosis and called a teammate up in France and the
teammate jumped on a plane to get to his side.

You're unbelieveable.

Unbelievable. And she doesn't even seem to realize it...

Doh! Pre-coffee moment. Thanks.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

"And I'm turned off by things like his inability to be there when his
wife got pregnant."

So who got her pregnant?

Dave said:

"And I'm turned off by things like his inability to be there when his
wife got pregnant."

So who got her pregnant?

She mostly did it by herself. And it was pretty torturous.

Delenn

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Scott Johnson

Quoted message said:

Delenn said:

He brought at least two guy friends with him to a sperm bank. IIRC one
was just some guy he knew who was along to drive. He brought another
couple of friends with him to each of the doctor visits he went on when
deciding where to do cancer treatment. (He also brought his mother and
girlfriend, but that isn't particularly noteworthy.)

He got the cancer diagnosis and called a teammate up in France and the
teammate jumped on a plane to get to his side.

You're unbelieveable.

Unbelievable. And she doesn't even seem to realize it...

Oh, give me a break. I've been on teams. I have close friends. I
don't have a problem with his friends rallying to his side in time of
trauma and I don't think it's particularly odd, it's just not something
I would do or want and so some of his story didn't resonate with me. I
don't travel in packs. When bad things happen I go it alone and that's
the way I prefer it. Someone (Peter?) was trying to tell me that this
was because he was on a close team. I think it was because he's just so
different than me. I need heros I can identify with.

I'm glad Ellen found some strength in his story. I probably would, too,
if I had cancer just because it goes from him having a 5% survival
chance to winning the Tour de France. What's not to like about that.
But I'm not reading it as a cancer victim, I'm reading it as someone new
to the sport of triathloning and I'm mostly seeing a guy who I wouldn't
really want as a role model for my own life.

Maybe there's some hindsight in that, since I value marriage so highly
and have a big distaste for people who cheat on their wives when they've
got three toddlers in the house. I can't read stories about how much he
values his kid without recalling that he is an absentee father.

So for these reasons I personally do not find him inspiring. YMMV.

Delenn

In article said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Scott Johnson

Quoted message said:

Delenn wrote:

>He brought at least two guy friends with him to a sperm bank. IIRC one
>was just some guy he knew who was along to drive. He brought another
>couple of friends with him to each of the doctor visits he went on when
>deciding where to do cancer treatment. (He also brought his mother and
>girlfriend, but that isn't particularly noteworthy.)
>
>He got the cancer diagnosis and called a teammate up in France and the
>teammate jumped on a plane to get to his side.

You're unbelieveable.

Unbelievable. And she doesn't even seem to realize it...

Oh, give me a break. I've been on teams. I have close friends. I
don't have a problem with his friends rallying to his side in time of
trauma and I don't think it's particularly odd, it's just not something
I would do or want and so some of his story didn't resonate with me. I
don't travel in packs. When bad things happen I go it alone and that's
the way I prefer it. Someone (Peter?) was trying to tell me that this
was because he was on a close team. I think it was because he's just so
different than me. I need heros I can identify with.

I'm glad Ellen found some strength in his story. I probably would, too,
if I had cancer just because it goes from him having a 5% survival
chance to winning the Tour de France. What's not to like about that.
But I'm not reading it as a cancer victim, I'm reading it as someone new
to the sport of triathloning and I'm mostly seeing a guy who I wouldn't
really want as a role model for my own life.

Maybe there's some hindsight in that, since I value marriage so highly
and have a big distaste for people who cheat on their wives when they've
got three toddlers in the house. I can't read stories about how much he
values his kid without recalling that he is an absentee father.

So for these reasons I personally do not find him inspiring. YMMV.

Read the title of this thread. This has nothing to do with teams or sport
or friends.

Ellen is returning to training after having cancer. She gets strength from
LA return to health after also fighting cancer. Then you decide LA is not
a worthy source for Ellen to draw inspiration from, for various reasons.
You can backtrack all you want now, but basically that is what you said. I
guess you figure you should be her role model or something.

What's unbelievable is that you try and turn it into something about you.

Do you realize at all what Ellen has gone through? Physically?
Emotionally? Spiritually? Relationally?

LA is not a god to Ellen, obviously. But she is reaching hard for various
sources of inspiration after the type of arduous year most of us can only
imagine. I'm awed by her courage and bravery. I wonder how many of us
could stand against this disease as she has?

Way to go Ellen. I'm glad you were inspired by LA and inspired by Alexeyev
and whoever and whatever inspired you. I gotta admit I'm somewhat inspired
by you. I really treasure the night of training, conversation and pizza -
more so now.

Hobbes said:

In article said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Scott Johnson
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>Delenn wrote:
>
>>He brought at least two guy friends with him to a sperm bank. IIRC one
>>was just some guy he knew who was along to drive. He brought another
>>couple of friends with him to each of the doctor visits he went on when
>>deciding where to do cancer treatment. (He also brought his mother and
>>girlfriend, but that isn't particularly noteworthy.)
>>
>>He got the cancer diagnosis and called a teammate up in France and the
>>teammate jumped on a plane to get to his side.
>
>You're unbelieveable.

Unbelievable. And she doesn't even seem to realize it...

Oh, give me a break. I've been on teams. I have close friends. I
don't have a problem with his friends rallying to his side in time of
trauma and I don't think it's particularly odd, it's just not something
I would do or want and so some of his story didn't resonate with me. I
don't travel in packs. When bad things happen I go it alone and that's
the way I prefer it. Someone (Peter?) was trying to tell me that this
was because he was on a close team. I think it was because he's just so
different than me. I need heros I can identify with.

I'm glad Ellen found some strength in his story. I probably would, too,
if I had cancer just because it goes from him having a 5% survival
chance to winning the Tour de France. What's not to like about that.
But I'm not reading it as a cancer victim, I'm reading it as someone new
to the sport of triathloning and I'm mostly seeing a guy who I wouldn't
really want as a role model for my own life.

Maybe there's some hindsight in that, since I value marriage so highly
and have a big distaste for people who cheat on their wives when they've
got three toddlers in the house. I can't read stories about how much he
values his kid without recalling that he is an absentee father.

So for these reasons I personally do not find him inspiring. YMMV.

Read the title of this thread. This has nothing to do with teams or sport
or friends.

Ellen is returning to training after having cancer. She gets strength from
LA return to health after also fighting cancer. Then you decide LA is not
a worthy source for Ellen to draw inspiration from, for various reasons.
You can backtrack all you want now, but basically that is what you said.

I'm sorry you interpretted it that way. I have no problem with someone
getting inspiration from Lance. I'm just not finding it in him myself.
I have no need for Ellen to agree with me. In fact, conversations are
more interesting if we disagree and share our differing perspectives.

Quoted message said:

I
guess you figure you should be her role model or something.

Wow. You're reading a lot into this. I'm not here to be a role model.
If anything, I'm here because being an [censored] is socially acceptable
here. But I *am* here to engage with people and that's what I was
attempting to do with Ellen. Not lecture her, not fawn over her, but
TALK with her.

Quoted message said:

What's unbelievable is that you try and turn it into something about you.

So your the problem is thread hijack? I was the first person to respond
to Ellen's post with an "atta girl". I didn't get into the Lance thing
until the end of the second "atta girl, you can do it" post, at which
point I started discussing a book I'm currently reading that she
indicated she had read. I don't need to destroy her heros, I was just
talking about how I perceived him. It's a conversation.

Quoted message said:

Do you realize at all what Ellen has gone through? Physically?
Emotionally? Spiritually? Relationally?

No, I don't. Why, do you? Is that your Approved Topic of This Thread,
a rehashing of her trauma? Go for it. I happened to be doing a book
review, but I'm game for a spiritual conversation if that's what you want.

Quoted message said:

LA is not a god to Ellen, obviously. But she is reaching hard for various
sources of inspiration after the type of arduous year most of us can only
imagine. I'm awed by her courage and bravery. I wonder how many of us
could stand against this disease as she has?

Let's hope we don't find out. I'd like to think that I'd follow Ellen
as a role model: deal with what needs dealing with then get back on
track. But I honestly don't know. Trauma brings out unexpected things.

Quoted message said:

Way to go Ellen. I'm glad you were inspired by LA and inspired by Alexeyev
and whoever and whatever inspired you. I gotta admit I'm somewhat inspired
by you. I really treasure the night of training, conversation and pizza -
more so now.

You're such a nice guy. (Maybe that's why I bothered replying to this,
because your criticism stings a bit.)

Delenn

Delenn said:

Hobbes said:

In article said:

Hobbes wrote:

>In article <[email hidden]>, Scott Johnson
><[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>>Delenn wrote:
>>
>>>He brought at least two guy friends with him to a sperm bank. IIRC one
>>>was just some guy he knew who was along to drive. He brought another
>>>couple of friends with him to each of the doctor visits he went on when
>>>deciding where to do cancer treatment. (He also brought his mother and
>>>girlfriend, but that isn't particularly noteworthy.)
>>>
>>>He got the cancer diagnosis and called a teammate up in France and the
>>>teammate jumped on a plane to get to his side.
>>
>>You're unbelieveable.
>
>
>Unbelievable. And she doesn't even seem to realize it...

Oh, give me a break. I've been on teams. I have close friends. I
don't have a problem with his friends rallying to his side in time of
trauma and I don't think it's particularly odd, it's just not something
I would do or want and so some of his story didn't resonate with me. I
don't travel in packs. When bad things happen I go it alone and that's
the way I prefer it. Someone (Peter?) was trying to tell me that this
was because he was on a close team. I think it was because he's just so
different than me. I need heros I can identify with.

I'm glad Ellen found some strength in his story. I probably would, too,
if I had cancer just because it goes from him having a 5% survival
chance to winning the Tour de France. What's not to like about that.
But I'm not reading it as a cancer victim, I'm reading it as someone new
to the sport of triathloning and I'm mostly seeing a guy who I wouldn't
really want as a role model for my own life.

Maybe there's some hindsight in that, since I value marriage so highly
and have a big distaste for people who cheat on their wives when they've
got three toddlers in the house. I can't read stories about how much he
values his kid without recalling that he is an absentee father.

So for these reasons I personally do not find him inspiring. YMMV.

Read the title of this thread. This has nothing to do with teams or sport
or friends.

Ellen is returning to training after having cancer. She gets strength from
LA return to health after also fighting cancer. Then you decide LA is not
a worthy source for Ellen to draw inspiration from, for various reasons.
You can backtrack all you want now, but basically that is what you said.

I'm sorry you interpretted it that way. I have no problem with someone
getting inspiration from Lance. I'm just not finding it in him myself.
I have no need for Ellen to agree with me. In fact, conversations are
more interesting if we disagree and share our differing perspectives.

Quoted message said:

I
guess you figure you should be her role model or something.

Wow. You're reading a lot into this. I'm not here to be a role model.
If anything, I'm here because being an [censored] is socially acceptable
here. But I *am* here to engage with people and that's what I was
attempting to do with Ellen. Not lecture her, not fawn over her, but
TALK with her.

Quoted message said:

What's unbelievable is that you try and turn it into something about you.

So your the problem is thread hijack? I was the first person to respond
to Ellen's post with an "atta girl". I didn't get into the Lance thing
until the end of the second "atta girl, you can do it" post, at which
point I started discussing a book I'm currently reading that she
indicated she had read. I don't need to destroy her heros, I was just
talking about how I perceived him. It's a conversation.

Quoted message said:

Do you realize at all what Ellen has gone through? Physically?
Emotionally? Spiritually? Relationally?

No, I don't. Why, do you? Is that your Approved Topic of This Thread,
a rehashing of her trauma? Go for it. I happened to be doing a book
review, but I'm game for a spiritual conversation if that's what you want.

Quoted message said:

LA is not a god to Ellen, obviously. But she is reaching hard for various
sources of inspiration after the type of arduous year most of us can only
imagine. I'm awed by her courage and bravery. I wonder how many of us
could stand against this disease as she has?

Let's hope we don't find out. I'd like to think that I'd follow Ellen
as a role model: deal with what needs dealing with then get back on
track. But I honestly don't know. Trauma brings out unexpected things.

Quoted message said:

Way to go Ellen. I'm glad you were inspired by LA and inspired by Alexeyev
and whoever and whatever inspired you. I gotta admit I'm somewhat inspired
by you. I really treasure the night of training, conversation and pizza -
more so now.

You're such a nice guy. (Maybe that's why I bothered replying to this,
because your criticism stings a bit.)

It is always something of a mystery to me how such a nice person,
which you quite clearly are, manages to get herself so consistently
misunderstood and so regularly on other peoples' [censored] lists!! <sigh>

Charles said:

It is always something of a mystery to me how such a nice person,
which you quite clearly are, manages to get herself so consistently
misunderstood and so regularly on other peoples' [censored] lists!! <sigh>

There's no mystery. They don't like me. It happens. I can handle it.

Delenn

Delenn said:

Charles said:

It is always something of a mystery to me how such a nice person,
which you quite clearly are, manages to get herself so consistently
misunderstood and so regularly on other peoples' [censored] lists!! <sigh>

There's no mystery. They don't like me. It happens. I can handle it.

I admire your tenacity but deplore your tactics!!

Charles said:

Delenn said:

Charles said:

It is always something of a mystery to me how such a nice person,
which you quite clearly are, manages to get herself so consistently
misunderstood and so regularly on other peoples' [censored] lists!! <sigh>

There's no mystery. They don't like me. It happens. I can handle it.

I admire your tenacity but deplore your tactics!!

Didn't you get the memo? This thread isn't about me. And topic drift
is suddenly illegal in MFW. So shape up.

Delenn