Re: Request for analysis - new program

[quote="Quoted message"][b] If they are truly hypothyroidic, they'll be lucky if the T4 even
normalizes their T3 levels. Synthroid is a quick, safe fix to bring
thryroid hormone up to a safe-but-minimal level, and it rarely does
much to regulate hypothryroidic obesity. In order to do something
about their obesity, they usually need to go to a full T3/T4 like
Armour or Thyrolar.[/quote]

If the patients T3 ratio on bloodwork is fine, then why in the world
would you want them on T3 replacement? This would expose the
individual to unnessesary risk, which is what I care about the most.
Also, there are millions of mild hypothyroidic individuals that use T4
replacement everyday. This approach is always safer because you rely
on the body to convert it to the active T3.

Quoted message said:

And if they aren't really hypothyroidic, T4 won't do [censored] for them.

As you probably have already guess, for legal reasons, I must remain
anonymous on this forum. This certainly is not what I would ideally
like, but with the current legal setup in the US, there is no good
option.... Sorry.... :-(

With that said, we cannot magically give anyone a pill and make them
loose weight. It is important, though, for the individual to realize
that their body is just a machine, and just like your mechanic runs
tests to see what is wrong, blood work is vidal to understanding why
someone feels the way they do. Before starting any fitness program, I
would strongly encourage you to go to your doctor and have a completed
blood work up. Also, talk it over with your doctor, and have him
explain to you what the numbers mean. If you find anything, please go
see an endocrinologist.

Once you know your health is fine, then I would advise you to start
something today. Not, tomarrow, but TODAY!! Also, please do not set
your goals too big, but stick with them. Then, once you have done this
for several months, add a few more things. I have found thru
experience that this is the best way to loose weight.

I wish I could do more. Good Luck!! :-)

[quote="'Tim Jones'"][quote="Quoted message"][b] If they are truly hypothyroidic, they'll be lucky if the T4 even
normalizes their T3 levels. Synthroid is a quick, safe fix to bring
thryroid hormone up to a safe-but-minimal level, and it rarely does
much to regulate hypothryroidic obesity. In order to do something
about their obesity, they usually need to go to a full T3/T4 like
Armour or Thyrolar.[/quote]

If the patients T3 ratio on bloodwork is fine, then why in the world
would you want them on T3 replacement?[/quote]

[a] If their T3 *levels* are fine, why do they need T4?
[b] If their T3:T4 ratio is OK, but they are hypothyroidic, what makes
you think that supplementation of T4 will create adequate T3? Or are
you just satisfied with the "safe" approach of TSH levels in the
normal range? Does it matter to you that T4 supplementation often
results in high T4 levels, normal serum TSH, but inadequate T3
levels?[*]
[c] Might one want to supplement T3 because triiodothyronine, not
thyroxine, is the active form of the hormone?

And yes, supplementation of full thyroid hormone does carry some risks
like tachycardia, etc., but that simply means that dosage should be
managed by a physician, instead of a non-practitioner handing out T4.

Quoted message said:

This would expose the
individual to unnessesary risk, which is what I care about the most.
Also, there are millions of mild hypothyroidic individuals that use T4
replacement everyday. This approach is always safer because you rely
on the body to convert it to the active T3.

Quoted message said:

And if they aren't really hypothyroidic, T4 won't do [censored] for them.

Assuming that the patient has all of the classic symptoms of Metabolic
Syndrome, my experience has been that this method works quite well. I
am certainly not alone in the belief.

Tim Jones said:

As you probably have already guess, for legal reasons, I must remain
anonymous on this forum.

Sorry, what was the clue?

Was it one of these? -

Quoted message said:

loose weight.

Quoted message said:

Not, tomarrow, but TODAY!!

:-)

Quoted message said:

[a] If their T3 *levels* are fine, why do they need T4?

Seeing as 80% of T3 is converted from T4, this is quite improbable in a
normal healthy individual.

[quote="Quoted message"][b] If their T3:T4 ratio is OK, but they are hypothyroidic, what makes
you think that supplementation of T4 will create adequate T3?[/quote]

Once again, 80% of T3 is converted from T4. Also, the T4:T3 ratio is
by definition what hypothyroidism is.

One thing we have learned over the last couple of years is that thyroid
function is very individual specific. We have had large numbers of
individuals complaining of typical thyroid fatigue symptoms, but their
blood work was within range. When we put them on a low dose
supplementation, they responded quite well. This led us to start
exploring this strategy further. Also, once they lost the weight, we
were able to take them off with no thyroid issues.

Quoted message said:

what makes
you think that supplementation of T4 will create adequate T3?

Quoted message said:

instead of a non-practitioner handing out T4.

Quoted message said:

Don't you think it would be better to deal with the insulin resistance

Quoted message said:

that is diagnostic of Metabolic Syndrome

Quoted message said:

rather than throwing T4 at
it, which may have nothing whatsoever to do with it?

Quoted message said:

Many overweight people who go to the gym for years rationalize their
"carbing up" as a means to have "enough energy" for their workout, or
as an aid for recuperation,

I agree with you, but please do not be hard on these people. I can
tell you from my professional experience that there are people that
seem to crave food more than others. They are some of the hardest to
get into a healthy weight. It is not simply an issue of will power,
but something more.

Quoted message said:

but the amount of calories spent in the
gym would only be equal to what's in a pre-workout energy bar plus one
congratulatory post-workout cookie - on account of well-deserved
success.

I agree with you, but if I can first get them to exercise, we can work
on the nutrition side once we get compliance.

Quoted message said:

success. When someone is eating my daily dosage of food 3 times a day,
I don't think there is any need to wonder if they suffer from low thyroid

Daily intake has no real factor on thyroid profile. In fact, many
bodybuilders consume > 6000cal per day and maintain very normal
profiles.

"Tim Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Many overweight people who go to the gym for years rationalize their
"carbing up" as a means to have "enough energy" for their workout, or
as an aid for recuperation,

I agree with you, but please do not be hard on these people. I can
tell you from my professional experience that there are people that
seem to crave food more than others. They are some of the hardest to
get into a healthy weight. It is not simply an issue of will power,
but something more.

-snip-

I wish someone would explain to me how, "it is not simply an issue of
will power, but something more."

Everyone who I've heard say this outweighs me by a lot and I'm not
disagreeing with it just because I can't relate to it, but I don't get
it. Getting used to eating less seems to be just like getting used to
anything else you might initially find challenging, including but not
limited to lifting weights. Our bodies adapt, and I've yet to hear a
good reason why someone needs to have their stomach stapled instead of
just learning to get used to eating less.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Tim Jones said:

DZ said:

When someone is eating my daily dosage of food 3 times a day, I
don't think there is any need to wonder if they suffer from low
thyroid

Daily intake has no real factor on thyroid profile. In fact, many
bodybuilders consume > 6000cal per day and maintain very normal
profiles.

This comment doesn't relate to anything I wrote. It was you who
brought up the thyroid issue. I'm simply saying that there is no need
for that.

Steve Freides said:

"Tim Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Many overweight people who go to the gym for years rationalize their
"carbing up" as a means to have "enough energy" for their workout, or
as an aid for recuperation,

I agree with you, but please do not be hard on these people. I can
tell you from my professional experience that there are people that
seem to crave food more than others. They are some of the hardest to
get into a healthy weight. It is not simply an issue of will power,
but something more.

-snip-

I wish someone would explain to me how, "it is not simply an issue
of will power, but something more."

I don't have the foggiest notion about whether Tim is correct about
the Synthroid stuff, but the rest of his posts certainly resonate with
my own experience. I originally started getting serious about
exercise because I wasn't interested in changing the way that I ate,
but I was tired of being fat. My hope was that if I worked hard
enough I could get to the point where I could continue to eat whatever
I wanted.

Heck, that's what eventually drove me towards weight training as well.
Cardio was able to stop my weight gain, and it definitely improved my
fitness level, but I was still fat. I felt a lot better, but I didn't
really look better.

I started lifting weights under the naive idea that if my body wanted
to be big perhaps mixing in a little weight training would allow me to
be big and strong 🙂. Interestingly enough adding weight training
helped me start losing weight. I lost 10 pounds the first month.

Quoted message said:

Everyone who I've heard say this outweighs me by a lot and I'm not
disagreeing with it just because I can't relate to it, but I don't
get it. Getting used to eating less seems to be just like getting
used to anything else you might initially find challenging,
including but not limited to lifting weights. Our bodies adapt, and
I've yet to hear a good reason why someone needs to have their
stomach stapled instead of just learning to get used to eating less.

Well, I suppose I outweigh you by a lot as well 🙂. I weigh 210
pounds. Of course, I am 6'2" and you apparently are somewhat shorter
than that. I can honestly say that, especially at first, eating less
was a *lot* harder than adding exercise. It took a lot of "success"
at getting fitter and stronger before I was willing to experiment with
cutting back on peanut butter and honey sandwiches. I am still not
very good at maintaining a strict diet, but watching what I eat is way
easier than it was when I was 50 pounds heavier. I'm not as hungry as
I used to be.

I totally "get it" when Tim talks about it being easier for people to
exercise than to diet. Exercise is something you do for a set period
every morning (or evening) and when you are done, that's it for the
day. For me being hungry never really went away.

I also don't think that I would have had the willpower to tackle both
starting a diet and starting an exercise routine at the same time.
However, once exercise became a habit it was relatively easy to /add/
the habit of watching what I ate. Even when I fail to be 100%
consistent in my diet I am still at least exercising 🙂.

Jason

[quote="'Tim Jones'"]

Quoted message said:

[a] If their T3 *levels* are fine, why do they need T4?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what makes
you think that supplementation of T4 will create adequate T3?

Only about 20% of T3 is produced by the thyroid. The other 80% of T3
is created by conversion from T4.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

instead of a non-practitioner handing out T4.

Synthroid Prescription Info:
http://www.rxabbott.com/pdf/synthroid.pdf

T4 supplementation is schedule 4. I have seen some individuals telling
me they are taking over the counter iodine/tyrosine, but I do not know
of anything else. I have found no over the counter solution that is
effective.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't you think it would be better to deal with the insulin resistance

If the individual is clearly type2 in fasting tests, but this is rarely
the case. The majority of everyone we see are borderline everything.I
have also not had much luck going this route, unless it is part of the
strategy. I have found that working on the metabolic side is much more
effective real world when dealing with marginal cases.

Quoted message said:

that is diagnostic of Metabolic Syndrome

Metabolic Syndrome is certainly not isolated to only type 2 insulin
issues. It is a range of symptoms including:

-atherogenic dyslipidemia
-elevated blood pressure
-prothrombotic state
-elevated c-reactive protein

Jason Earl said:

I totally "get it" when Tim talks about it being easier for people to
exercise than to diet. Exercise is something you do for a set period
every morning (or evening) and when you are done, that's it for the
day.

That's why many people do it but stay fat. They're willing to "pay
their dues" and exercise X minutes per day, but they're unwilling to
change their lifestyle, i.e., the way they eat.

Despite "Tim" being cagey, it's obvious that he's a personal trainer;
therefore, it financially benefits him to have people start out
exercising three times per week, then moving to five times per week,
without worrying too much about diet. The bottom line is that most
fat people will increase their calorie intake, largely as a
self-reward mechanism, when they start exercising regularly. YMMV.

JMW said:

Jason Earl said:

I totally "get it" when Tim talks about it being easier for people to
exercise than to diet. Exercise is something you do for a set period
every morning (or evening) and when you are done, that's it for the
day.

That's why many people do it but stay fat. They're willing to "pay
their dues" and exercise X minutes per day, but they're unwilling to
change their lifestyle, i.e., the way they eat.

Despite "Tim" being cagey, it's obvious that he's a personal trainer;
therefore, it financially benefits him to have people start out
exercising three times per week, then moving to five times per week,
without worrying too much about diet. The bottom line is that most
fat people will increase their calorie intake, largely as a
self-reward mechanism, when they start exercising regularly. YMMV.

I had a conversation at my own gym yesterday along the same lines.
People with weight problems seem to think that by punishing themselves
with heavy workout activity that they will lose their flab.

I spent some time trying to explain to an otherwise intelligent woman,
that she would produce far better results if she didn't come to the
gym at all, and simply cut her diet by 500 - 1000 calories per day.

While working out has enormous benefits over the long term, people
that use the gym for attempted weight control rarely sustain their
activity because it is painful and alien to them.

Of course a combined programme of exercise and calorie intake control
is by far the better way, but people with weight problems seldom have
the determination or self-discipline to adhere to such a lifestyle.

To my discredit, I am a serial 'yo-yo dieter', but due to my lifestyle
(which I enjoy far too much to change) it is an absolute necessity. I
was 188 lbs on the scales today and 19% body fat at the gym yesterday,
which is not too far off my target. I diet strictly during the week
and 'enjoy' my weekends. It's a regime far from ideal, but it works
for me.

The sad fact of life is, that 500 calories a day above maintenance
means a weight gain over a twelve month period of 52 lbs!! Food for
thought (pun intended)!!

HAGW! ;o)

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tim Jones said:

As you probably have already guess, for legal reasons, I must remain
anonymous on this forum.

Excuse me? No one has guessed any such thing.

Quoted message said:

This certainly is not what I would ideally
like, but with the current legal setup in the US, there is no good
option.... Sorry.... :-(

F-ck are you talking about?

Quoted message said:

With that said, we cannot magically give anyone a pill and make them
loose weight.

Incorrect. Try some meth, clen, and yohimbine, and weight loss ye shall
have. Healthy? no. Legal? No.

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/

"Tim Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As you probably have already guess, for legal reasons, I must remain
anonymous on this forum. This certainly is not what I would ideally
like, but with the current legal setup in the US, there is no good
option.... Sorry.... :-(

I don't care what your name is, I'd just love to hear what kind of lameass
weekend training cert you're using to scam, er, train your clients.

JMW said:

Jason Earl said:

I totally "get it" when Tim talks about it being easier for people to
exercise than to diet. Exercise is something you do for a set period
every morning (or evening) and when you are done, that's it for the
day.

That's why many people do it but stay fat. They're willing to "pay
their dues" and exercise X minutes per day, but they're unwilling to
change their lifestyle, i.e., the way they eat.

I didn't really start losing weight until more than a year after I
first started exercising. I did stop gaining weight, at least, and I
also got a *lot* better at running. Of course, I am pretty sure that
I would have done much better if I had possessed even a small clue as
to what I was doing. The second I started adding weight training the
pounds started to come off, despite the fact that my diet stayed
pretty constant. I'm fairly confident that if I had started lifting
weights earlier I would have seen weight loss earlier.

Quoted message said:

Despite "Tim" being cagey, it's obvious that he's a personal trainer;
therefore, it financially benefits him to have people start out
exercising three times per week, then moving to five times per week,
without worrying too much about diet. The bottom line is that most
fat people will increase their calorie intake, largely as a
self-reward mechanism, when they start exercising regularly. YMMV.

Yeah, well I'm not a personal trainer, but I have successfully
introduced several of my friends and relatives to a healthier
lifestyle and I basically always take the same approach. When people
started noticing that I no longer was fat they started asking me what
I did to lose so much weight and to build my muscles. At first, like
an idiot, I would tell them the program that I was currently on. A
few tried it, but none of them stuck with it for any period of time.
So, after a few spectacular failures I had an epiphany and I scaled
back the workouts I recommended until they were essentially the least
amount of work that was likely to show results. For example, I dipped
into the research on using a single set to failure that the HIT guys
like to use so much. After all, just like in the research I was
training newbies. So a strength workout would consist of one set of
8-10 reps on four or five compound exercises with the goal to increase
the weight. Cardio workouts consisted of 20 minutes of jogging (or
whatever). I would recommend switching between workout modes with
each workout and I would further recommend that they try to get in at
least three workouts a week.

These workouts are far from optimal in basically every possible
parameter except one; I could get people to actually do these workouts
for a couple of months religiously. I wasn't trying to rebuild their
body per se, I was trying to build new habits. Once these people were
part of the "exercise culture" it was easy to encourage them into
making further changes.

Any personal trainer that can get their client to continue showing up
over a long period of time will eventually make changes to their body
composition, and success really does breed more success. Heck, I've
got lots of loved ones that are couch potatoes. I would gladly pay
Tim (or someone like Tim) if he could get them to show up and exercise
on a regular basis, even if his program was stupid.

I honestly think that sometimes people that have had some success
changing their body forget what it was like to start out. Lots of
folks try changing their diet without adding exercise, and it hardly
ever works because changing your diet is something you have to
concentrate on 24-7. Exercise is something that you only need to
concentrate on for 20-30 minutes 3-4 times a week, and I think that
makes exercise a great place to start. Yes, eventually you are going
to have to get a handle on your diet as well, but that's much easier
once you have made exercise a habit (IMHO).

Jason