Re: Quackbuster BUSTED!!

Yeah exactly that is the 'crux of it.'
Strange isn't it? Proponent belief effects the outcome.
Anth

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So, Anth, are you saying, in a round-about way, that you have to
"believe" for it to work?

Quoted message said:

So, Anth, are you saying, in a round-about way, that you have to
"believe" for it to work?

Fer Cryin' Out Loud! Anth's only one step away from saying that you have to
have proper intent and must embrace the healing!

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:33:38 +0100, "Anth" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Yeah exactly that is the 'crux of it.'
Strange isn't it? Proponent belief effects the outcome.
Anth

Anth said that he does not believe acupuncture really works because of
studies that refute it. Does this mean that acupuncture violates his
rule that it is the belief that is the key?? Or is he just another
hypocrite??

There are countless people who believe that acupuncture works. They
are convinced of it. But Anth discounts their beliefs because of some
studies. Hmmmm.

Aloha,

Rich

PS: If Anth responds, he will not reconcile his contradictory
statements. Instead he will try to divert attention by making some
personal attack. Just watch.

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

So, when I had eight sessions of acupuncture on my left arm & it "didn't
work", it was because I didn't "believe"?

And when my husband had two sessions of acupuncture on his neck & it
"didn't work", it was because he didn't "believe"?

And even when our terrier dog, "Sparky", ha a couple of sessions of
accupuncture on her back legs & it "didn't work", it was because Sparky
"didn't believe"?

Is this Good News or Bad News?

Quoted message said:

So, when I had eight sessions of acupuncture on my left arm & it "didn't
work", it was because I didn't "believe"?

Yes, you refused to accept the healing and perhaps the intention of the
practitioner was not immaculate.

Quoted message said:

And when my husband had two sessions of acupuncture on his neck & it
"didn't work", it was because he didn't "believe"?

Ditto

Quoted message said:

And even when our terrier dog, "Sparky", ha a couple of sessions of
accupuncture on her back legs & it "didn't work", it was because Sparky
"didn't believe"?

Oh, ye of little faith!

Quoted message said:

Is this Good News or Bad News?

Ok, the foregoing was sarcasm, not directed at Kathy, but at the mindset of the
typical MHA pro-alts. They are so self-centered, they feel as if their
feelings are a primary determinate of reality.

The outcome of Acupuncture treatments is multivariate. The condition being
treated, its severity, & duration are important factors. The training,
methodology, and expertise of the practitioner matter. The number of
treatments matter. As with many treatments, whether surgical, pharmaceutical,
or PT, the individual is the biggest variable.

IMHO, you should have gotten SOME relief for your arm pain after 8 treatments.
Did the same acupuncturist treat you, your husband, and dog?

No it shows you are a name calling you are a knob-head.
Anth

<Rich.@.> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:33:38 +0100, "Anth" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Yeah exactly that is the 'crux of it.'
Strange isn't it? Proponent belief effects the outcome.
Anth

Anth said that he does not believe acupuncture really works because of
studies that refute it. Does this mean that acupuncture violates his
rule that it is the belief that is the key?? Or is he just another
hypocrite??

There are countless people who believe that acupuncture works. They
are convinced of it. But Anth discounts their beliefs because of some
studies. Hmmmm.

Aloha,

Rich

PS: If Anth responds, he will not reconcile his contradictory
statements. Instead he will try to divert attention by making some
personal attack. Just watch.

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

No what I am saying is that acupuncture has failed in many double blind
tests done by various parties.
The overall consensus is that proponents get better results than sceptics.
If the effect was large you would see it, but you don't.
Anth

"MCS Is NOT Real" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, Anth, are you saying, in a round-about way, that you have to
"believe" for it to work?

Fer Cryin' Out Loud! Anth's only one step away from saying that you have

to

Quoted message said:

have proper intent and must embrace the healing!

Quoted message said:

No what I am saying is that acupuncture has failed in many double blind
tests done by various parties.

Really? You know of some double-blinded Acupuncture trials? How do they blind
the patient to whether or not they have multiple needles in them? (Actually, a
"placebo" needle exists, but it requires the patient be "blinded" during
treatment)

More importantly, how do you blind the acupuncturist? How do you make it
unclear to them whether or not they have inserted needles into the patient?

So, now that we've cleared up that point, Anth, just where are these double
blinded studies of which YOU and ONLY YOU speak?

Quoted message said:

The overall consensus is that proponents get better results than sceptics.
If the effect was large you would see it, but you don't.
Anth

Sorry, just gotta add my two cents worth in......

Don't know about 'studies' for acupuncture or how that could even be
structured.
Things like acupuncture work for those who open themselves up to being
relieved of whatever they came seeking treatment for.
Yes, I guess you could call it plain old 'faith'.

If a person is not in a good 'place' for healing, it will not occur.
1) Be willing to be relieved of the condition.
2) Be willing to have the doctor/method assist you in being relieved of the
condition.
3) Be willing to follow recommendations after the treatment.
4) Be willing to stick with the course of treatment.
5) Be willing to be healed through this specific course of treatment.

I also have a theory that people who are healed with acupuncture are willing
to feel a little more/different pain to make it better.
No, it doesn't work for everyone, but nothing really does.

Coleah

"MCS Is NOT Real" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No what I am saying is that acupuncture has failed in many double blind
tests done by various parties.

Really? You know of some double-blinded Acupuncture trials? How do they

blind

Quoted message said:

the patient to whether or not they have multiple needles in them?

(Actually, a

Quoted message said:

"placebo" needle exists, but it requires the patient be "blinded" during
treatment)

More importantly, how do you blind the acupuncturist? How do you make it
unclear to them whether or not they have inserted needles into the

patient?

Quoted message said:

So, now that we've cleared up that point, Anth, just where are these

double

Quoted message said:

blinded studies of which YOU and ONLY YOU speak?

Quoted message said:

The overall consensus is that proponents get better results than

sceptics.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If the effect was large you would see it, but you don't.
Anth

"MCS Is NOT Real" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No what I am saying is that acupuncture has failed in many double blind
tests done by various parties.

Really? You know of some double-blinded Acupuncture trials? How do they

blind

Quoted message said:

the patient to whether or not they have multiple needles in them?

(Actually, a

Quoted message said:

"placebo" needle exists, but it requires the patient be "blinded" during
treatment)

Actually I do know of some double blind acupuncture trials, they are
difficult to do but they have been done.

Quoted message said:

More importantly, how do you blind the acupuncturist?

You poke him in the eye with his own useless needles.

Quoted message said:

How do you make it unclear to them whether or not they have inserted

needles into the patient?

You do sham vs actual treatment, blinding both parties.

Quoted message said:

So, now that we've cleared up that point, Anth, just where are these

double

Quoted message said:

blinded studies of which YOU and ONLY YOU speak?

Try pubmed - you will find them there.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The overall consensus is that proponents get better results than

sceptics.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If the effect was large you would see it, but you don't.
Anth

Anth

No, we were all treated by different accupuncturists.

My husband first, in the mid-1980ties, me following a serious accident
in 1996 (the ortheopedist said my compound fractured wrist was 11 on the
scale of 10 in severity & that if I had had the same fracture more than
10 years before, he wouldn't have been able to help me much;
fortunately, a new surgical technique had been developed in the previous
decade for cases similar to mine that worked quite well). However, lot
of residue swelling & frozen shoulder & particularly frozen fingers post
surgery. These are what I went to the accupuncturist for (my surgeon
had me going to a physical therapist to work on my fingers almost as
soon as the cast came off)...to hopefully move thngs along a bit
faster.I had amazingly no pain past a few days after surgery, so "pain
relief" wasn't required.

Sparky got her treatment in around 1993 at the (expensive) vet's, plus,
at the time, we had a next-door neighbor who was an accupuncturist
(though not an animal one), & he also worked on her a few times. He
specialized in using accupuncture for "addiction problems", but did all
the other stuff too.

Quoted message said:

"MCS Is NOT Real" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No what I am saying is that acupuncture has failed in many double blind
tests done by various parties.

Really? You know of some double-blinded Acupuncture trials? How do they

blind

Quoted message said:

the patient to whether or not they have multiple needles in them?

(Actually, a

Quoted message said:

"placebo" needle exists, but it requires the patient be "blinded" during
treatment)

Actually I do know of some double blind acupuncture trials, they are
difficult to do but they have been done.

Quoted message said:

More importantly, how do you blind the acupuncturist?

You poke him in the eye with his own useless needles.

Quoted message said:

How do you make it unclear to them whether or not they have inserted

needles into the patient?

You do sham vs actual treatment, blinding both parties.

Doing "sham" acupuncture is not bona-fide blinding. Double-blinding in
Acupuncture has many structural obstacles as well as clinical ones. In the
treatment of headache, acupoints and treatment strategy are based on
differential diagnosis. To get a large sample of people with the same clinical
sub-differentiation needing the same selection of points just ain't easy, not
even in China.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, now that we've cleared up that point, Anth, just where are these

double

Quoted message said:

blinded studies of which YOU and ONLY YOU speak?

Try pubmed - you will find them there.

Yawn, try showing me a bona-fide DOUBLE blinded trial of over 50 people.
That's a small sample, but hey, I'll accept it as evidence of the existence of
such a trial.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The overall consensus is that proponents get better results than

sceptics.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If the effect was large you would see it, but you don't.

You would be surprised just how many practitioners and patients of Acupuncture
and TCM are card-carrying skeptics. This isn't just a grass-roots consensus,
it runs to the very highest levels of Organized Medicine.

The NIH seems to fancy it a bit and say so on their website.

Quoted message said:

Anth

Quoted message said:

No, we were all treated by different accupuncturists.

My husband first, in the mid-1980ties, me following a serious accident
in 1996 (the ortheopedist said my compound fractured wrist was 11 on the
scale of 10 in severity & that if I had had the same fracture more than
10 years before, he wouldn't have been able to help me much;
fortunately, a new surgical technique had been developed in the previous
decade for cases similar to mine that worked quite well). However, lot
of residue swelling & frozen shoulder & particularly frozen fingers post
surgery. These are what I went to the accupuncturist for (my surgeon
had me going to a physical therapist to work on my fingers almost as
soon as the cast came off)...to hopefully move thngs along a bit
faster.I had amazingly no pain past a few days after surgery, so "pain
relief" wasn't required.

Sparky got her treatment in around 1993 at the (expensive) vet's, plus,
at the time, we had a next-door neighbor who was an accupuncturist
(though not an animal one), & he also worked on her a few times. He
specialized in using accupuncture for "addiction problems", but did all
the other stuff too.

Kathy, thanks for your reply! FWIW, I've never been particularly fond of
Acupuncture for animals, but I hear it has its niche with equestrians. As for
you and your husband, its unfortunate you didn't have better results. I guess
the severity of your accident was a factor with you, but it doesn't sound like
your husband's case was so severe. Perhaps a massage therapist could have or
could be of use.

Anyway, you and your husband were quite patient and "sporting" to try something
so many times with so little (if any success). I hope you didn't have any
negative side-effects. BTW, did you have any positive side-effects such as
sleeping better?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/47D4CFFD-3D92-43A8-B2A7-F5264B6D8874.htmhttp://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/47D4CFFD-3D92-43A8-B2A7-F5264B6D8874.htm

Acupuncture proven to work

Monday 15 March 2004, 13:45 Makka Time, 10:45 GMT

In Singapore, needles are used to treat even animals

In a concession by medical orthodoxy, health researchers agree
acupuncture is a useful, cost-effective treatment for patients who
suffer from chronic pain.

In one of the largest randomised studies to assess the effectiveness
of the ancient Chinese treatment, scientists found it worked better
than conventional treatments.

Dr Andrew Vickers, of Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New
York, told journalist on Sunday that he had concentrated his research
on pain relief, particularly migraines.

"People using acupuncture had fewer headaches, less severe headaches
and they used less health resources over the course of the following
year."

Methodology

The scientists compared acupuncture plus standard treatment to normal
therapy alone in 401 patients in England and Wales who suffered from
headaches several days each week.

Their research is published online by the British Medical Journal.

"For severely affected patients, acupuncture reduced the severity and
the frequency of their headaches to make a real difference in their
lives"

Dr Andrew Vickers,
Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York

Patients who had been assigned acupuncture plus standard treatment
received up to 12 treatments over three months.

Initially there was not much difference between the two groups but at
the end of the year-long trial the scientists noticed a big change.

Results

Patients receiving acupuncture had 22 fewer days of headaches per
year, used 15% less medication, made 25% fewer visits to their family
doctors and took fewer days off sick than the other group.

There were not many side effects and Vickers and his colleagues also
found that the treatment was cost effective.

"For severely affected patients, acupuncture reduced the severity and
the frequency of their headaches to make a real difference in their
lives," Vickers said.

Acupuncture was first used in China about 2000 years ago.

It involves inserting very fine needles into the skin at specific
points in the body and is one of the most popular forms of
complementary medicine.

German researchers have also said it could help women undergoing
fertility treatment to conceive.

Quoted message said:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/47D4CFFD-3D92-43A8-B2A7-F5264B6D88

74.htmhttp://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/47D4CFFD-3D92-43A8-B2A7-F5264
B6D8874.htm

Quoted message said:

Acupuncture proven to work

Anth, Ilena has spoken, so STFU!

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Quackbuster BUSTED!!
From: "Anth" [email hidden]
Date: 4/22/2004 9:19 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

No it shows you are a name calling you are a knob-head.
Anth

Rich's aim is to belittle the person and the subject is lost. It is a just
watch game with him.

Jan

Quoted message said:

<Rich.@.> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:33:38 +0100, "Anth" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Yeah exactly that is the 'crux of it.'
Strange isn't it? Proponent belief effects the outcome.
Anth

Anth said that he does not believe acupuncture really works because of
studies that refute it. Does this mean that acupuncture violates his
rule that it is the belief that is the key?? Or is he just another
hypocrite??

There are countless people who believe that acupuncture works. They
are convinced of it. But Anth discounts their beliefs because of some
studies. Hmmmm.

Aloha,

Rich

PS: If Anth responds, he will not reconcile his contradictory
statements. Instead he will try to divert attention by making some
personal attack. Just watch.

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

As far as "sleeping better" as the result of acupuncture treatment, not
that I noticed, but sleeping well has never been a problem for me. I
can't think of any positives or negatives as the result of my eight
treatments (except, of course, for lack of result & being somewhat
lighter in the wallet.)

I should add that I did go back to her for "pain relief" on three other
occasions (thought maybe "pain relief" might work...hope springs
eternal). On two of those occasions, it was due to a lower back ache.
Usually I just "ride them out" as they rarely last for more than two or
three days & only rarely occur, but in both these cases, we had full
week-end social engagements so I wanted to get riid of those backaches
ASAP

The end result was that in the first instance, my backache DID go away
almost instantaneously with one treatment; in the second instance, it
did not...in fact it stayed with me for the usual three days, so aspirin
& a heating pad had to help carry the day(s).

I've, of course, mentioned my painful sprained knee of last spring
enough times around here, so I won't bore everyone again, but two
extended sessions of acupuncture did absolutely nothing to relieve the
pain. Zilch. After that I decided I will never be an acupuncture
patient again. Ever. Never.

BTW, the acupuncturist in question is very popular with the "biotech
crowd" & her office is not far away from one of the largest biotech
companies in the SF/Bay Area. She's really a wonderful person, & the
sssions were always pleasant...just not fruitful.

What were you charged per session and how long did they take?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As far as "sleeping better" as the result of acupuncture treatment, not
that I noticed, but sleeping well has never been a problem for me. I
can't think of any positives or negatives as the result of my eight
treatments (except, of course, for lack of result & being somewhat
lighter in the wallet.)

I should add that I did go back to her for "pain relief" on three other
occasions (thought maybe "pain relief" might work...hope springs
eternal). On two of those occasions, it was due to a lower back ache.
Usually I just "ride them out" as they rarely last for more than two or
three days & only rarely occur, but in both these cases, we had full
week-end social engagements so I wanted to get riid of those backaches
ASAP

The end result was that in the first instance, my backache DID go away
almost instantaneously with one treatment; in the second instance, it
did not...in fact it stayed with me for the usual three days, so aspirin
& a heating pad had to help carry the day(s).

I've, of course, mentioned my painful sprained knee of last spring
enough times around here, so I won't bore everyone again, but two
extended sessions of acupuncture did absolutely nothing to relieve the
pain. Zilch. After that I decided I will never be an acupuncture
patient again. Ever. Never.

BTW, the acupuncturist in question is very popular with the "biotech
crowd" & her office is not far away from one of the largest biotech
companies in the SF/Bay Area. She's really a wonderful person, & the
sssions were always pleasant...just not fruitful.

What was I charged per session & how long did they take?

I don't know what my husband paid for his nor recall what we paid for
Sparky, But having run across my old cancelled checks just a few months
ago from the 1996 8-session acupuncture treatment, I can accurately say
that it was $60 a session (US). (hour).

I don't recall exactly the ones from the backache treatments, which
would probably have been in 1998 & 2000, but I do recall it was
somewhat more, probably $70 a session (hour).

By Spring 2003, her hourly rate was up to $95, and she now offered an
"extended session" of an hour & a half, which was $130. However, in
both my sessions she worked on me for a full hour & a half (mostly pure
acupuncture, with maybe 10 minutes of accupressure thrown in), but still
charged me $95 per session I think she was REALLY trying for better
results on me than she had gotten previously. Unfortunately it didn't
work out that way.

I don't know her current rates & likely never will.