Re: pushing your self?

hey hmm someone before mentioned about the FAQ
is there anyway i can find it? thank you

Don't push to be broken.
Even a rubber band snaps,
And gets tossed in the trash.

David Geesaman said:

"Ed Prochak" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No your point is still wrong. Just check into all the beginner runners
that started out too fast and came to this group seeking advice on how
to deal with their injuries.

I sure hope you are not coaching anyone. (If you do how much does the
sports clinic kick back to you?)

Ed

1) I'm not a coach

ok

Quoted message said:

2) I don't work for a sport clinic

good so the money motivation is out

Quoted message said:

3) I ran competitively for 12 years and thousands of cumulative miles
and suffered a total of 8 weeks of lost/injured time in those years. I
think I know how to stay healthy.

congratulations. Are you still running? (not necessarily competitively)
I do not have the pace or the interest to run competitively, but I have
managed to run injury free, at leat as far as running goes.

Quoted message said:

4) I know better than to insult someone over Usenet when a
miscommunication is obviously present. I've been on Usenet long enough to
know just how often that happens.

It was perhaps harse, but only insulting if you want to take it that way.
The purpose was more to warn others rather than to tick you off.

Quoted message said:

My point, which I will again state in more verbose English, is that in
any one endurance event, workout, or run, nobody can run so hard that the
overexertion will damage them.

And that is exactly the statement I disagree with. People can and do hurt
themselves by running intensely when they are not accustomed to it.
Specifically new runners with little experience do get hurt.

Quoted message said:

Generally speaking, you can't run so hard as
to collapse a lung, you can't give yourself a hernia, and you won't break
your legs.

interesting straw man arguement. Points for creativity.

Quoted message said:

You can run 400s until you fall down and puke from exhaustion
and get up and run again as much as your motivation can carry you. So for
example, in a competitive race situation when you're trying for your best,
as long as you've paced yourself there is nothing wrong with trying to push
beyond 100%. Knowing how to push your body like it's a vehicle and not
being consumed by the exhaustion and pain is a developed skill, and runners
who are afraid to push will not set many PRs.

Two points and I'll leave the last post to you. (I cannot speak for Doug though!)

ONE: New runners do not know how to pace, that's one aspect of being a new runner.

TWO: New runners do not yet know their body's potential OR its current limits.

With the adrenaline of their first race, they may not recognize that twinge
as a muscle tear until long afterward.

Quoted message said:

Overuse injuries, hydration and heat related issues, overtraining were
not part of my point - I specifically am not talking about that.

I never said you were. Overuse is another issue altogether.

On any

Quoted message said:

given training schedule, I never felt it was good to push myself to that
limit more than, say, once weekly. High intesity workouts were very
intense, and I would push myself as hard as I could, but it never approached
the level I put forth in races. The difference was motivation - I've always
felt that race day was always a higher level of pressure, focus, excitement,
and drive than any workout. Moreover, races had priority - only on the
biggest races of the season could I put forth that kind of effort - the
other races were my best effort but a cut below because the excitement and
pressure weren't as high.

Pushing for a PR is one thing. Pushing to the absolute limits of your body is
just looking for injury. Professionals get paid for doing that, but most
posters here do not. You seem to agree that Pushing the limits should not be
attempted in every run, or even ever race.

Quoted message said:

Regarding overuse injuries, running hurt, and overtraining - I firmly
believe that there are hard workouts and recovery workouts. The success of
hard workouts is supported by one thing - the ability of the athlete to
recover from it. If you run recovery runs too fast you will compromise your
next workout. As well, doing too much too soon will cause the same
problems. Diet, variety of hard workouts, recovery runs, low emotional
stress, sleep, etc are all vital. Soreness or concentrated pain that builds
from day to day or doesn't go away after a warmup must be diagnosed and
rested until it's gone.The winning athletes recover better which enables
them to train and race that much harder.

Dave

Nothing to disagree with there.

--
Ed Prochak
running http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
netiquette http://www.psg.com/emily.html
--
"Two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less travelled by
and that has made all the difference."
robert frost

Quoted message said:

hey hmm someone before mentioned about the FAQ
is there anyway i can find it? thank you

here it is:
running http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/

--
Ed Prochak
running http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
netiquette http://www.psg.com/emily.html
--
"Two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less travelled by
and that has made all the difference."
robert frost

"Ed Prochak" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My point, which I will again state in more verbose English, is
that in any one endurance event, workout, or run, nobody can run so
hard that the overexertion will damage them.

And that is exactly the statement I disagree with. People can and do
hurt themselves by running intensely when they are not accustomed to
it. Specifically new runners with little experience do get hurt.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Generally speaking, you can't run so hard as to collapse a
lung, you can't give yourself a hernia, and you won't break your
legs.

interesting straw man arguement. Points for creativity.

Quoted message said:

You can run 400s until you fall down and puke from exhaustion
and get up and run again as much as your motivation can carry you.
So for example, in a competitive race situation when you're trying
for your best, as long as you've paced yourself there is nothing
wrong with trying to push beyond 100%. Knowing how to push your body
like it's a vehicle and not being consumed by the exhaustion and pain
is a developed skill, and runners who are afraid to push will not set
many PRs.

Two points and I'll leave the last post to you. (I cannot speak for
Doug though!)

ONE: New runners do not know how to pace, that's one aspect of being a
new runner.

TWO: New runners do not yet know their body's potential OR its current
limits.

This was what I was [censored] about also - the novice trying this. If
David wants to qualify this with an experienced runner then I would
agree it's less likely to cause injury but still not a free lunch.

-DougF

Ed Prochak said:

Quoted message said:

My point, which I will again state in more verbose English, is that in
any one endurance event, workout, or run, nobody can run so hard that the
overexertion will damage them.

And that is exactly the statement I disagree with. People can and do hurt
themselves by running intensely when they are not accustomed to it.

Ed, I suggest you read the post carefully, again.

He said, "in any one endurance event, workout or run". He is essentially saying
that acute injuries are rare in running. And he is right. Nearly all known
running injuries are related to chronic stress. Even "speed" injuries like
shin splints or achilles tendonitis are accumulated over *several* workouts --
they are not the result of a single workout. You *will not get achilles
tendonitis* from doing *one hard race or workout*. You probably will get it
from doing hill sessions every night (assuming you're not sidelined by shin
splints or some other injury first!)

Where I train in NY, the training group I run with has runners spanning a vast
range of abilities involved in various sorts of speed work -- including hill
reps, etc. Some of these runners are overweight beginners. As long as the
training load is kept under control, they do fine. And since these newbies
come to associate speed work with their group sessions, it actually helps
create a clear distinction between speed work and training runs.

Quoted message said:

Specifically new runners with little experience do get hurt.

Yes, usually from pushing too hard day after day. This is still typically an
overtraining/under-recovery issue. It's *almost never* the result of one-time
acute stress.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Generally speaking, you can't run so hard as
to collapse a lung, you can't give yourself a hernia, and you won't break
your legs.

interesting straw man arguement. Points for creativity.

Since he was talking about acute injuries, it's not a straw man argument at all.

Quoted message said:

ONE: New runners do not know how to pace, that's one aspect of being a new
runner.

TWO: New runners do not yet know their body's potential OR its current limits.

Which usually results in chronic overuse injuries.

Quoted message said:

Pushing for a PR is one thing. Pushing to the absolute limits of your body is
just looking for injury.

This is not true, at least not at the level of generality that you think it is.

You can push your cardiovascular system to the limits, and do just fine. Your
muscles are operating at a submaximal level during endurance racing. The
accumulation of such stress on muscles and connective tissue can cause problems,
but that's a *chronic* issue.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed Prochak said:

Quoted message said:

My point, which I will again state in more verbose English, is that
in
any one endurance event, workout, or run, nobody can run so hard that
the
overexertion will damage them.

And that is exactly the statement I disagree with. People can and do hurt
themselves by running intensely when they are not accustomed to it.

Ed, I suggest you read the post carefully, again.

He said, "in any one endurance event, workout or run". He is essentially
saying
that acute injuries are rare in running.

And that is the bottom line. Yes, more trained athletes may fare better
the next day if they try to max out like they're running from a bear, but
even very new people will have a hard time causing any lasting injury by
overdoing it.
Of course, running a marathon on very low mileage training, or trying to
run an all-out hilly 10k on no training will leave a beginner hurting badly,
but still extremely unlikely to lead to an injury. (Except maybe breaking
their nose on the ground when they collapse from exhaustion).
There are many new athletes out there who overtrain too soon, too much.
But there are just as many who turn tail and start walking the moment they
get tired - and for those it helps to know that in any one day you can try
pushing yourself as hard as possible. One thing to expand on, is that I
felt as my conditioning improved, the amount of pain I had to subject my
body to in order to get a maximum performance increased. When I was out of
shape, I really had an easy time getting my maximum effort - because it was
so little. When I was in really great shape, a PR-quality race or workout
effort took tremendous mental strength and motivation that left me drained
for days.

Dave

"David Geesaman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed Prochak said:

> My point, which I will again state in more verbose English, is
> that in
> any one endurance event, workout, or run, nobody can run so hard
> that the
> overexertion will damage them.

And that is exactly the statement I disagree with. People can and do
hurt
themselves by running intensely when they are not accustomed to it.

Ed, I suggest you read the post carefully, again.

He said, "in any one endurance event, workout or run". He is
essentially saying
that acute injuries are rare in running.

And that is the bottom line. Yes, more trained athletes may fare
better the next day if they try to max out like they're running from a
bear, but even very new people will have a hard time causing any
lasting injury by overdoing it.

You better qualify this and says on roads or smooth dirt paths. Take
this statement to trail races and you will hear some loud guffaws.

-DougF

Quoted message said:

Ed Prochak said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Ed Prochak said:

> My point, which I will again state in more verbose English, is
> that in any one endurance event, workout, or run, nobody can run so
> hard that the overexertion will damage them.

There is at least one specific example in which a single run
directly caused the death of the runner. At Marathon, roughly 2000
years ago, some brave/foolish man ran hard for 26 miles, delivered a
message, and died. It can happen.

Out-of-shape people commonly have heart attacks after major
exertion. It happens every day in airports around the world, when
old/fat people run too hard trying to catch their planes. Most
runners will not run so hard/fast/long, but it certainly can happen.

Steve Hansen said:

There is at least one specific example

That's a "myth", or at best, a "story". Not an example.

Quoted message said:

in which a single run
directly caused the death of the runner.

Fatalities are rare, but they do happen. Usually the runner has some sort of
heart trouble. Like any strenuous physical activity, this needs to be taken
seriously, but I'd still say it's misleading to advise runners to avoid
exerting themselves to reduce the risk of heart attack, though there are
*specific instances* where a doctor may well advise a patient to avoid
strenuous exercise.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Steve Hansen said:

Ed Prochak said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

On 2005-05-20, Ed Prochak <[email hidden]> wrote:

>> My point, which I will again state in more verbose English, is
>> that in any one endurance event, workout, or run, nobody can run so
>> hard that the overexertion will damage them.

There is at least one specific example in which a single run directly
caused the death of the runner. At Marathon, roughly 2000 years ago,
some brave/foolish man ran hard for 26 miles, delivered a message, and
died. It can happen.

Actually he may have run over 300 miles - to Sparta and back seems to be
reasonably documented, considering it was 2500 yr ago, whereas the 25
miles feat (before the English royalty got involved) seems lacking in
documentation (or at least in most of the accounts I read when Steve
Common, iirc, posted a whole bunch of links a while ago).

He was probably lacking hydration gear, heat acclimitization, and
Succeed caps, so dropped dead at the end 😉

There's several pages like this around with somewhat different
interpretations:
http://www.coolrunning.co.nz/articles/2002a007.html

For obvious reasons, the marathon distance is more popular than the
Spartathlon and has a more dramatic ending.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dot wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Steve Hansen wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ed Prochak wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On 2005-05-20, Ed Prochak <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> My point, which I will again state in more verbose English, is
>>> that in any one endurance event, workout, or run, nobody can run so
>>> hard that the overexertion will damage them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There is at least one specific example in which a single run directly
caused the death of the runner. At Marathon, roughly 2000 years ago,
some brave/foolish man ran hard for 26 miles, delivered a message, and
died. It can happen.

Quoted message said:

Actually he may have run over 300 miles - to Sparta and back seems to be
reasonably documented, considering it was 2500 yr ago, whereas the 25
miles feat (before the English royalty got involved) seems lacking in
documentation (or at least in most of the accounts I read when Steve
Common, iirc, posted a whole bunch of links a while ago).

He, probably legendary, was just one example of the messenger service of
the times. Runners covered the Greek world, and in the story he just
happened to be the one to make the run between the battlefield and the
Pentagon. As Herodotus said it, "Neither snow, nor rain, nor heat, nor
night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed
rounds."

Quoted message said:

He was probably lacking hydration gear, heat acclimitization, and
Succeed caps, so dropped dead at the end 😉

Besides, he hadn't carbo loaded the night before. Maybe pasta hadn't
been invented yet.

Quoted message said:

There's several pages like this around with somewhat different
interpretations:
http://www.coolrunning.co.nz/articles/2002a007.html

Quoted message said:

For obvious reasons, the marathon distance is more popular than the
Spartathlon and has a more dramatic ending.

--
Don Kirkman

"Steve Hansen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There is at least one specific example in which a single run directly
caused the death of the runner. At Marathon, roughly 2000 years ago, some
brave/foolish man ran hard for 26 miles, delivered a message, and died.
It can happen.

Out-of-shape people commonly have heart attacks after major exertion. It
happens every day in airports around the world, when old/fat people run
too hard trying to catch their planes. Most runners will not run so
hard/fast/long, but it certainly can happen.

I'm not disagreeing with your facts, but out-of-shape people with heart
trouble are not in the realm of my original point.
The thing at Marathon is legendary, and the facts of course are always
in question, although I don't disagree with them. What is important to note
is that many normally healthy people push themselves exert themselves
regularly around the world, and yet reports of death or serious injury are
scarce. In fact, they are usually well publicized because of the scarcity.
I'm willing to bet the death rate of extremely intense exercise is as low as
the trip to the event, shower afterward, and everything else. It's just
more dramatic in the cases where it occurs.

Dave

Well it seems you have modified your stance. When you started you said
Nobody could injure theselves in a single event. Now you've posted a
couple messages that allow for the possibility that it can happen,
infrequently yes, but zero occurances no.

Given that the chance is small but not zero, I tend to give the
conservative advice of caution to new runners. IOW training is
important.

Have a good run.