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Re: persistant vs periodic traing

Started by Charlie Pendejo · · Last activity · 6 posts · 369 views

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Triathlon
Published
31 August 2005
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1 September 2005
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Charlie Pendejo
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  1. David Geesaman said:
    Quoted message said:

    It seems like Periodic training would work great if I was already
    near my goal times and I was training for a specific race.

    In my experience, peaking is the only way to acheive your truly
    finest performances. The downside is you only have that peak period
    for 2-4 weeks.

    Interesting discussion so far. Would anyone argue for some shades of
    gray here, i.e. that one can train toward a peak while maintaining
    sorta-balanced training throughout the season, by shifting the emphasis
    for each phase but not as completely as "pure periodization"? And
    thereby get pretty close to one's ultimate peak potential while
    retaining some semblance of raceworthiness for much of the season?

  2. "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    David Geesaman said:
    Quoted message said:

    It seems like Periodic training would work great if I was already
    near my goal times and I was training for a specific race.

    In my experience, peaking is the only way to acheive your truly
    finest performances. The downside is you only have that peak period
    for 2-4 weeks.

    Interesting discussion so far. Would anyone argue for some shades of
    gray here, i.e. that one can train toward a peak while maintaining
    sorta-balanced training throughout the season, by shifting the emphasis
    for each phase but not as completely as "pure periodization"? And
    thereby get pretty close to one's ultimate peak potential while
    retaining some semblance of raceworthiness for much of the season?

    I know in my case I was racing all along. For bigger races, we could
    keep the volume down on the thursday speed workout and be a little fresher
    on saturday. The race was also a form of training, both in the sense that
    it's a workout, and also because you need practice racing to race well. I'd
    say this phase was basically a full season, which was around 6 weeks. You
    could probably extend it some; I haven't experimented with it.
    The stinker of the peak for me was that I often raced very well at the
    'big' race, and qualified for the next level up 1-2 weeks later. It was
    very hard for me to get motivated to race so intensely again, especially
    after enjoying the results and relieving the mental burden. Going in with a
    'what the hey' attitude didn't work for me.

    Dave

  3. "...Would anyone argue for some shades of gray here..."

    I would argue that. I think Rookie's post underscore one of the main
    reasons to follow Periodization - and that is that he ended up
    injured. (Not actually saying this caused the injury, or that
    following a plan of periodization would have prevented it - just saying
    that many people advocate periodization for injury prevention).

    I think I actually do well with mini-cylces of periodization. I'm not
    convinced that I (will) do well with meso-cycles. My coach had me on a
    very strict 2 weeks "on" 1 week "off" (off = recovery workouts) which I
    liked. And I agree that putting a stategy of Peaking for one or two
    "A" races will help maximize your performance (IF the timing is right).
    And (and this is important) I do feel that periodization is a
    fantastic way to train your heart.

    But what I am wondering is if a more layered approach might be more
    effective over a multi-year period. For instance rather than a
    periodization of "seasons" (late fall/winter strength, later
    winter/early spring base, spring/summer speed, mid summer peak, fall
    rest, repeat) why not a periodization of "pace goals" - (200/400 times,
    800/1 mile times, 5k times, 10k times, rest, repeat). You would
    continue to use the the 2 weeks on/1 week off mini-cycles. The 2-5%
    load would still be used for long run and total weekly distance. But
    rather than some subjective seasonal timing, the timing would be based
    on your performance (maybe rather than a pace a pace window).

    This seems like it would be backwards from most periodization schemes
    as you would do the bulk of your shorter speed work first and extending
    that to longer distances as you neared the peak of a season. But to my
    pea-brain that seems "logical".

    Again my goal is not so much to set a PR in a race. My goal is raise
    my sustainable/repeatable pace. I mean today (litterally this morning)
    I can sustain a 6:50 pace for 3 miles. I would like that to be
    significantly faster - more like a 6:00 pace (I think my PR is closer
    to a 6:40/mile pace for 5k).

    -CF

  4. Charlie Pendejo said:
    David Geesaman said:
    Quoted message said:

    It seems like Periodic training would work great if I was already
    near my goal times and I was training for a specific race.

    In my experience, peaking is the only way to acheive your truly
    finest performances. The downside is you only have that peak period
    for 2-4 weeks.

    Interesting discussion so far. Would anyone argue for some shades of
    gray here, i.e. that one can train toward a peak while maintaining
    sorta-balanced training throughout the season, by shifting the emphasis
    for each phase but not as completely as "pure periodization"?

    FWIW, that's my thinking. Based on the assortment of periodization
    schemes I've read about, comparing "persistent" and "periodic" training
    is like comparing brands of shoes. It's not the brand, but the model or
    at least biomechanical style within the brand / training style that matters.

    Most programs that I've read or tried to use build volume from one phase
    to another (until you add a substantial dose of intensity), so you're
    not losing anything, and the end of one phase has elements of the next
    phase in there. It's just a shift in emphasis.

    Base is the foundation on which everything is built. If you live
    someplace hilly, you're probably going to be doing hilly runs during
    base, and that's a dose of strength in there. Some programs have base
    then strength, some strength then base, some mix. (For me, strength
    includes a 2-hr hard cross-training workout with form drills,
    plyometrics, and circuits in Nov-early Jan, but rest of the year is
    hills and snowshoe running. In summer, I walk through some of our xt
    form drills in barefeet on lawn to maintain the fine muscles in
    feet/ankles. The amount of hills and duration of runs increase steadily,
    but not in same week. My races are hilly trail races or snowshoe races.)

    FWIW, I had a hard time buying into some of the assumptions in the
    article that the OP posted.

    "Their training is pretty much the same year round. Only in runners who
    have defined seasons, as in track races in the summer and cross country
    in the fall, followed by some road races in the winter and spring, will
    you find periodizing in their training."

    Many (most?) people live places with seasons - whether it's snow and ice
    or excessively hot weather (relatively speaking) or hurricanes - that
    have some effect on their training and races that are available. Change
    is good.

    "The training itself is based on the hard-easy approach, which is
    definitely modeled on weight lifting."

    Periodization focuses on the main phases. Hard-easy or hard-medium or
    whatever is within a phase. I would think continuous training does the
    same thing - UNLESS the person is truly doing the same thing every day,
    and I know there are some people that run that way, but fairly small, I
    think. And since we are building strength in leg muscles as well as core
    and upper body, it might make sense to look to lifting studies.

    "The problem for runners is the main muscle involved is the cardiac
    muscle and the real goal of training is to increase oxygen uptake."

    Most of what I've read is that the most important adaptation to running
    is the buildup of capillaries, mitochondria, etc., as well as
    recruitment of various muscle fibers, which are usually done in base
    phase at easy efforts. My understanding is that these things stay around
    awhile, but things like tolerating lactate buildup (speedwork) are
    developed and lost relatively quickly. Yea, the heart needs to
    strengthen also, but unless you have the infrastructure of capillaries,
    etc to carry the blood and oxygen, it doesn't help much. And you need
    the muscles, tendons, ligaments, etc to support the body.

    Look at the Hadd article that Dan posted.

    3. "Runners who run themselves into the ground periodically in training
    probably set back their over-all progress. Done right, a runner should
    never be especially sore or dead-legged. He should feel the same almost
    every day."

    Proper periodization and buildup should avoid this. With any program, I
    think there's the possibility of overdoing something briefly and needing
    more recovery or being sore the next day. I mean, who hasn't done a run
    that ended up being more than intended, either from a wrong turn or a
    bigger hill than anticipated, etc. I would think persistent training
    would be more likely to result in dead-legged feeling or staleness.

    4. "What allows an athlete to sustain a greater bounce is an increased
    oxygen uptake, some increase in muscle strength and coordination, and an
    increase in running economy. Of these factors, the most important is
    oxygen uptake, which is the goal of training. The other factors are more
    by-products of training."

    Sorta, but I think it makes more sense to view it as building
    infrastructure to allow the greater oxygen processing, not that the
    infrastructure is a by-product. A more efficient machine will use less
    oxygen.

    Just my $.01.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people"
    -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

  5. ChronoFish said:

    "...Would anyone argue for some shades of gray here..."

    I would argue that. I think Rookie's post underscore one of the main
    reasons to follow Periodization - and that is that he ended up
    injured. (Not actually saying this caused the injury, or that
    following a plan of periodization would have prevented it - just saying
    that many people advocate periodization for injury prevention).


    In this case I'm pretty confident that the injury was caused by the
    Audi that turned across me without indicating while I was doing 30mph
    and down on the tri bars! Maybe if I'd been doing periodic training I
    wouldn't have been going so fast...

  6. Ouch!

    I apologize for using you as an example! We had a guy on our tri-team
    do the same thing this year - under almost identical circumstances
    (well at least compared to the little bit that you've told me). Two
    nights in the hospital - but he's up and riding again and ready for his
    half iron.

    That's one of my worse fears.....

    -CF

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