Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

Re: pedaling tricks: Coyle + Kautz studies show ...

Started by Ken Roberts · · Last activity · 120 posts · 3,142 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
Cycling Equipment
Published
21 October 2006
Last activity
29 October 2006
Original author
Ken Roberts
Posts
120
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
3,142
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–20 of 120
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. bill wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Spinning at 90 rpm is fundamentally different from
    spinning at 120. Your body parts are partially acting
    as resonant penduli. the force distribution is affected by this.

    Sounds interesting. I'm happy to read more studies if you can post links to
    publicly-accessable web pages with reasonably straightforward URLs.

    The reason I've been talking 90rpm is because experts on this newsgroup
    mentioned these two studies as important, and they used 90rpm -- and both
    have the word "Endurance" in their title. (Also I myself am into endurance
    rides, not sprinting.)

    You might try a web seach on something like:
    "pedaling technique sprint cycling van den Bogert Soest"

    Ken

  2. "bill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Ken Roberts said:

    bill wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Spinning at 90 rpm is fundamentally different from
    spinning at 120. Your body parts are partially acting
    as resonant penduli. the force distribution is affected by this.

    Sounds interesting. I'm happy to read more studies if you can post
    links to
    publicly-accessable web pages with reasonably straightforward URLs.

    That's good. But what I am saying about resonance is easily
    demonstrated ad hoc on your own bike. It is more valuable that way.

    Quoted message said:


    The reason I've been talking 90rpm is because experts on this
    newsgroup
    mentioned these two studies as important, and they used 90rpm -- and
    both
    have the word "Endurance" in their title. (Also I myself am into
    endurance
    rides, not sprinting.)


    Well, 90 works out to be pretty much the "center" of the frequency
    distribution for experienced riders. But there are interesting
    variations. Some years ago, the US Olympic individual pursuit rider
    was over 40. He won his qualifier over a very fast younger rider.
    Their
    styles could not have been more different. The older guy (he is a
    legend--I just can't remember his name) was at 90 RPM or so in a
    really
    big gear (for a track bike)

    Kent Bostick. He qualified and participated in the Olympics at 43 years
    of age.

    Quoted message said:

    and the young guy was spinning something
    like 120 RPM. Both were probably correct--for their own bodies.

    Phil H

  3. Phil Holman said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Spinning at 90 rpm is fundamentally different from spinning at
    > 120. Your body parts are partially acting as resonant
    > penduli. the force distribution is affected by this.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Sounds interesting. I'm happy to read more studies if you can post
    links to publicly-accessable web pages with reasonably
    straightforward URLs.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's good. But what I am saying about resonance is easily
    demonstrated ad hoc on your own bike. It is more valuable that way.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The reason I've been talking 90rpm is because experts on this
    newsgroup mentioned these two studies as important, and they used
    90rpm -- and both have the word "Endurance" in their title. (Also
    I myself am into endurance rides, not sprinting.)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Well, 90 works out to be pretty much the "center" of the frequency
    distribution for experienced riders. But there are interesting
    variations. Some years ago, the US Olympic individual pursuit
    rider was over 40. He won his qualifier over a very fast younger
    rider. Their styles could not have been more different. The older
    guy (he is a legend--I just can't remember his name) was at 90 RPM
    or so in a really big gear (for a track bike)

    Quoted message said:

    Kent Bostick. He qualified and participated in the Olympics at 43
    years of age.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and the young guy was spinning something like 120 RPM. Both were
    probably correct--for their own bodies.

    http://yarchive.net/bike/pedaling.html

    This ain't new!

    Jobst Brandt

  4. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Phil Holman said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> Spinning at 90 rpm is fundamentally different from spinning at
    >> 120. Your body parts are partially acting as resonant
    >> penduli. the force distribution is affected by this.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Sounds interesting. I'm happy to read more studies if you can post
    > links to publicly-accessable web pages with reasonably
    > straightforward URLs.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's good. But what I am saying about resonance is easily
    demonstrated ad hoc on your own bike. It is more valuable that way.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > The reason I've been talking 90rpm is because experts on this
    > newsgroup mentioned these two studies as important, and they used
    > 90rpm -- and both have the word "Endurance" in their title. (Also
    > I myself am into endurance rides, not sprinting.)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Well, 90 works out to be pretty much the "center" of the frequency
    distribution for experienced riders. But there are interesting
    variations. Some years ago, the US Olympic individual pursuit
    rider was over 40. He won his qualifier over a very fast younger
    rider. Their styles could not have been more different. The older
    guy (he is a legend--I just can't remember his name) was at 90 RPM
    or so in a really big gear (for a track bike)

    Quoted message said:

    Kent Bostick. He qualified and participated in the Olympics at 43
    years of age.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and the young guy was spinning something like 120 RPM. Both were
    probably correct--for their own bodies.

    http://yarchive.net/bike/pedaling.html

    This ain't new!

    Neither is the difference of opinion. The transport of oxygen from the
    capillaries to the working muscles determines the body's aerobic
    capacity and IMO there is more than one way to improve it.

    Jobst writes "This is consistent with the one legged time trialist we
    had here a few
    years ago who was about as good as the best in the club."

    Are you implying that he was as good as he could have been with two good
    legs?

    Phil H

  5. Phil Holman' piholmanc@yourservice said:

    Jobst writes "This is consistent with the one legged time trialist we
    had here a few
    years ago who was about as good as the best in the club."

    Are you implying that he was as good as he could have been with two good
    legs?

    I remember a story about the race up the stairs in the Empire State
    Building being won by a one-legged man... makes sense if Jobst's
    opinion is valid.

    Which brings up an interesting conundrum - the one-legged stair
    climber would be at an advantage over two-legged competitors from an
    aerobic standpoint, since he was carrying much less weight. Similarly
    a one-legged cyclist would have better aerodynamics and less weight
    than his two-legged competitors, so he or she would not need to
    produce as much power to go as fast.

    FWIW, I've been in a duathlon with an athlete with HALF of ONE leg (a
    below-the-knee amputation). He was holding about 20mph when I passed
    him (it was a multi-lap bike course). He smoked us all in the running
    legs (in his chair)... though his transition times were understandably
    slow.

    Also, you have to consider the length of the event - in a 100 meter
    sprint, there's no doubt that two legs would be a big advantage (bike
    or on foot). If the race was a double century, it would be an
    entirely aerobic issue.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame

  6. "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Phil Holman' piholmanc@yourservice said:

    Jobst writes "This is consistent with the one legged time trialist we
    had here a few
    years ago who was about as good as the best in the club."

    Are you implying that he was as good as he could have been with two
    good
    legs?

    I remember a story about the race up the stairs in the Empire State
    Building being won by a one-legged man... makes sense if Jobst's
    opinion is valid.

    Interesting Mark, but still not proof that his power output was as good
    as it could be with two legs.

    Quoted message said:


    Which brings up an interesting conundrum - the one-legged stair
    climber would be at an advantage over two-legged competitors from an
    aerobic standpoint, since he was carrying much less weight. Similarly
    a one-legged cyclist would have better aerodynamics and less weight
    than his two-legged competitors, so he or she would not need to
    produce as much power to go as fast.

    Our interest is aerobic capacity so we really need to compare power
    output to eliminate any confounding variables.

    Quoted message said:


    FWIW, I've been in a duathlon with an athlete with HALF of ONE leg (a
    below-the-knee amputation). He was holding about 20mph when I passed
    him (it was a multi-lap bike course). He smoked us all in the running
    legs (in his chair)... though his transition times were understandably
    slow.

    Also, you have to consider the length of the event - in a 100 meter
    sprint, there's no doubt that two legs would be a big advantage (bike
    or on foot). If the race was a double century, it would be an
    entirely aerobic issue.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame

    Phil H

  7. On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 07:53:34 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    Which brings up an interesting conundrum - the one-legged stair
    climber would be at an advantage over two-legged competitors from an
    aerobic standpoint, since he was carrying much less weight. Similarly
    a one-legged cyclist would have better aerodynamics and less weight
    than his two-legged competitors, so he or she would not need to
    produce as much power to go as fast.

    Such a conclusion cannot be made from so simple an evaluation of the
    demands of this (or any) athletic endevour.

    In almost all such activities, there exist multiple optimal
    arrangements of the many characteristics of both the human body and
    the style or technique adopted to achieve success. The art of
    excellence consists of correctly guessing which of these optima

    a) exists;
    b) is superior; and
    c) is obtainable.

    In particular, it is unlikely that removing a part of the body which
    contrubutes directly to the motor functions needed for the event,
    merely to achieve reduced mass, would be a successful strategy. Where
    the event requires little or vertical translation (cycling), this
    probability is extremely low. While there would be an isolated gain
    of reduced aerodynamic resistance this is almost certainly far smaller
    than the loss of total power output.

    For a stair-climber the simple measure of vO2max/kg might give an
    indication of the relative gain/loss, but this will be compounded by
    other individual characteristics, each of which could be directly-,
    indirectly-, or unrelated to the presence or absence of a limb.

    "Differences of opinion" are what makes a horse race; my fiver's on
    the fellow with three legs.

  8. On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 07:53:34 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Phil Holman' piholmanc@yourservice said:

    Jobst writes "This is consistent with the one legged time trialist we
    had here a few
    years ago who was about as good as the best in the club."

    Are you implying that he was as good as he could have been with two good
    legs?

    I remember a story about the race up the stairs in the Empire State
    Building being won by a one-legged man... makes sense if Jobst's
    opinion is valid.

    [snip]

    Dear Ahab,

    Stair-climbing involves lifting your entire weight up each step, which
    may be a bit different than pedaling.

    In any case, googling for "empire state building" and "amputee" or
    "one-legged" fails to come up with anything about a one-legged race
    winner.

    On the other hand, Snopes.com doesn't mention the race at all, so
    there may be hope.

    An annual race has been held since 1978, but there may be other
    events.

    You can see some results by selecting years before 2006 and then going
    down the list of events to Bank of America Empire State Building
    Run-Up (the events are listed from most recent downward, and the climb
    is in February):

    http://web2.nyrrc.org/cgi-bin/start.cgi/aes-programs/results/resultsarchive.htm

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  9. Phil Holman piholmanc@yourservice said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > This is consistent with the one legged time trialist we had here
    > a few years ago who was about as good as the best in the club.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Are you implying that he was as good as he could have been with
    two good legs?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I remember a story about the race up the stairs in the Empire State
    Building being won by a one-legged man... makes sense if Jobst's
    opinion is valid.

    Quoted message said:

    Interesting Mark, but still not proof that his power output was as
    good as it could be with two legs.

    Some people are hard to please. This is not clinical testing but
    supports the concept that engaging more muscles does not increase
    power output. I see you did not perform the intermittent pedaling
    exercise or you wouldn't ask.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Which brings up an interesting conundrum - the one-legged stair
    climber would be at an advantage over two-legged competitors from
    an aerobic standpoint, since he was carrying much less weight.
    Similarly a one-legged cyclist would have better aerodynamics and
    less weight than his two-legged competitors, so he or she would not
    need to produce as much power to go as fast.

    Quoted message said:

    Our interest is aerobic capacity so we really need to compare power
    output to eliminate any confounding variables.

    The marginal weight difference is not significant, the prosthesis
    having a weight fairly close to a human leg. This is not a milli-watt
    comparison, only a demonstration that adding more muscles to the
    exercise doesn't increase the carburetor, so to speak.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    FWIW, I've been in a duathlon with an athlete with HALF of ONE leg
    (a below-the-knee amputation). He was holding about 20mph when I
    passed him (it was a multi-lap bike course). He smoked us all in
    the running legs (in his chair)... though his transition times were
    understandably slow.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Also, you have to consider the length of the event - in a 100 meter
    sprint, there's no doubt that two legs would be a big advantage
    (bike or on foot). If the race was a double century, it would be
    an entirely aerobic issue.

    ....and that is what is under discussion. Locally we have a four mile
    hill climb on which people know their ET fairly accurately. Some of
    these riders have tried it with a 10-inch bigger and smaller gear and
    got the same result. Neither of which involved pulling on the
    upstroke except in hairpin turns (which are basically a short sprint).

    Jobst Brandt

  10. On 22 Oct 2006 21:44:17 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    The marginal weight difference is not significant, the prosthesis
    having a weight fairly close to a human leg. This is not a milli-watt
    comparison . . .

    [snip]

    Dear Jobst,

    Here's a 230 gram lower leg:

    http://www.monash.edu.au/rehabtech/pub/tlink/dec02.pdf

    Admittedly, it's the equivalent of a stupid-light bike part, being
    meant for emergency or shower use, but it weighs less than many
    bicycle tires.

    Here's a sturdy 1280 gram lower leg for cycling:

    http://www.monash.edu.au/rehabtech/unique/cycling.htm

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  11. On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 07:53:34 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    Also, you have to consider the length of the event - in a 100 meter
    sprint, there's no doubt that two legs would be a big advantage (bike
    or on foot). If the race was a double century, it would be an
    entirely aerobic issue.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame

    Dear Mark,

    There was no doubt until the peg-legs began competing.

    Here's a page that mentions an unsanctioned 11.02 run by a below the
    knee amputee:

    http://www.paralympic.org/paralympian/20001/08.htm

    His best sanctioned run was 11.33, rather faster than most RBT posters
    could manage.

    Here's a page that mentions 200 meter double-amputee times of 21.97
    against the world record 19.32:

    http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/jun05/1217

    Considering how extremely limited the pool of amputee runners is,
    compared to the huge pool of ordinary runners, it's extremely annoying
    that--

    Er, extremely inspiring that some amputees can run rings around most
    of us.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  12. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 07:53:34 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    Also, you have to consider the length of the event - in a 100 meter
    sprint, there's no doubt that two legs would be a big advantage (bike
    or on foot). If the race was a double century, it would be an
    entirely aerobic issue.

    Quoted message said:

    Dear Mark,

    There was no doubt until the peg-legs began competing.

    Here's a page that mentions an unsanctioned 11.02 run by a below the
    knee amputee:

    http://www.paralympic.org/paralympian/20001/08.htm

    His best sanctioned run was 11.33, rather faster than most RBT posters
    could manage.

    Here's a page that mentions 200 meter double-amputee times of 21.97
    against the world record 19.32:

    http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/jun05/1217

    Considering how extremely limited the pool of amputee runners is,
    compared to the huge pool of ordinary runners, it's extremely annoying
    that--

    Er, extremely inspiring that some amputees can run rings around most
    of us.

    It's also worth mentioning that there has been a virtuous but effective
    arms race in the world of high-performance prosthetics. If you check out
    that paralympic.org link above, you'll see a leg prosthesis made of
    carbon fibre formed in a way that has nothing to do with reproducing the
    look of a normal leg, but everything to do with being a high-performance
    piece of sporting equipment.

    The double amputees are even less constrained by human limitations, to
    the point that the rulebook sets a formula for the size limit of their
    prostheses:

    http://www.ipc-athletics.org/force-download.php?file=Classification_Rule_
    Book_2006_Chapter_1.pdf

    See section 19.2 and 19.3 of that document.

    The whole document is...interesting. There's a lot of detail about how
    you classify athletes by disability, minimum impairment levels, and
    other stuff (measuring impairment of uncooperative athletes?!) that is
    either charming, inspiring, bureaucratic, or ghoulish, depending on your
    perspective.

    But I'm liking the idea of a formula libre human-powered sprint,

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
    to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

  13. Mark Hickey wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I remember a story about the race up the stairs in the
    Empire State Building being won by a one-legged man

    My several tries at different web searches show not the slightest evidence
    that ever happened.

    Ken

  14. Ken Roberts said:

    Mark Hickey wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I remember a story about the race up the stairs in the
    Empire State Building being won by a one-legged man

    My several tries at different web searches show not the slightest evidence
    that ever happened.

    I don't remember ever hearing of a one-legged person winning the race,
    but there was a winner in 1978 who was on a disability pension from his
    job with the NY Fire Department. The legitimacy of his disability
    claim was investigated following his successful race, but I don't
    remember the outcome.
    http://openweb.tvnews.vanderbilt.edu/1978-2/1978-02-17-NBC-10.html

  15. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Phil Holman piholmanc@yourservice said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> This is consistent with the one legged time trialist we had here
    >> a few years ago who was about as good as the best in the club.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Are you implying that he was as good as he could have been with
    > two good legs?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I remember a story about the race up the stairs in the Empire State
    Building being won by a one-legged man... makes sense if Jobst's
    opinion is valid.

    Quoted message said:

    Interesting Mark, but still not proof that his power output was as
    good as it could be with two legs.

    Some people are hard to please.

    Yes, especially the ones who have an affinity for the scientific method.

    Quoted message said:

    This is not clinical testing but supports the concept that engaging
    more muscles does not increase
    power output. I see you did not perform the intermittent pedaling
    exercise or you wouldn't ask.

    How do you see that? Did you see it when we had this discussion a few
    years ago? It tends to work because it still uses the same muscle mass.
    It's not very different from pushing a bigger gear. How does it work on
    a hillclimb?

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Which brings up an interesting conundrum - the one-legged stair
    climber would be at an advantage over two-legged competitors from
    an aerobic standpoint, since he was carrying much less weight.
    Similarly a one-legged cyclist would have better aerodynamics and
    less weight than his two-legged competitors, so he or she would not
    need to produce as much power to go as fast.

    Quoted message said:

    Our interest is aerobic capacity so we really need to compare power
    output to eliminate any confounding variables.

    The marginal weight difference is not significant, the prosthesis
    having a weight fairly close to a human leg. This is not a milli-watt
    comparison, only a demonstration that adding more muscles to the
    exercise doesn't increase the carburetor, so to speak.

    Limiting factors in cycling are both peripheral and central. VO2peak
    does not increase in proportion to the exercising muscle mass. For a
    healthy normal cyclist, one-legged exercise can be sustained at
    approximately 2/3 the work load of two-legged cycling. Is maximal
    aerobic capacity achieved with the downward force of both legs
    only? Coyle and Kautz data, and others, show that this is still open for
    discussion.

    Improvements in performance after the first 2-3 yr of intense training
    are associated with improvements in LT Vo2 and very little to do with
    improvements in Vo2max. The next question concerns the factors
    responsible for further
    increases in LT Vo2 and performance.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    FWIW, I've been in a duathlon with an athlete with HALF of ONE leg
    (a below-the-knee amputation). He was holding about 20mph when I
    passed him (it was a multi-lap bike course). He smoked us all in
    the running legs (in his chair)... though his transition times were
    understandably slow.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Also, you have to consider the length of the event - in a 100 meter
    sprint, there's no doubt that two legs would be a big advantage
    (bike or on foot). If the race was a double century, it would be
    an entirely aerobic issue.

    ...and that is what is under discussion. Locally we have a four mile
    hill climb on which people know their ET fairly accurately. Some of
    these riders have tried it with a 10-inch bigger and smaller gear and
    got the same result. Neither of which involved pulling on the
    upstroke except in hairpin turns (which are basically a short sprint).

    Phil H

  16. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Ryan Cousineau said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 07:53:34 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    Also, you have to consider the length of the event - in a 100 meter
    sprint, there's no doubt that two legs would be a big advantage (bike
    or on foot). If the race was a double century, it would be an
    entirely aerobic issue.

    Quoted message said:

    Dear Mark,

    There was no doubt until the peg-legs began competing.

    Here's a page that mentions an unsanctioned 11.02 run by a below the
    knee amputee:

    http://www.paralympic.org/paralympian/20001/08.htm

    His best sanctioned run was 11.33, rather faster than most RBT posters
    could manage.

    Here's a page that mentions 200 meter double-amputee times of 21.97
    against the world record 19.32:

    http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/jun05/1217

    Considering how extremely limited the pool of amputee runners is,
    compared to the huge pool of ordinary runners, it's extremely annoying
    that--

    Er, extremely inspiring that some amputees can run rings around most
    of us.

    It's also worth mentioning that there has been a virtuous but effective
    arms race in the world of high-performance prosthetics. If you check out
    that paralympic.org link above, you'll see a leg prosthesis made of
    carbon fibre formed in a way that has nothing to do with reproducing the
    look of a normal leg, but everything to do with being a high-performance
    piece of sporting equipment.

    The double amputees are even less constrained by human limitations, to
    the point that the rulebook sets a formula for the size limit of their
    prostheses:

    http://www.ipc-athletics.org/force-download.php?file=Classification_Rule_
    Book_2006_Chapter_1.pdf

    See section 19.2 and 19.3 of that document.

    The whole document is...interesting. There's a lot of detail about how
    you classify athletes by disability, minimum impairment levels, and
    other stuff (measuring impairment of uncooperative athletes?!) that is
    either charming, inspiring, bureaucratic, or ghoulish, depending on your
    perspective.

    But I'm liking the idea of a formula libre human-powered sprint,

    You are not suggesting that these athletes would
    attempt to obtain an unfair advantage. Are you?

    --
    Michael Press

  17. Ken Roberts said:

    Mark Hickey wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I remember a story about the race up the stairs in the
    Empire State Building being won by a one-legged man

    My several tries at different web searches show not the slightest evidence
    that ever happened.

    My recollection is from a long time ago... I won't pretend that it's
    certifiable truth. Perhaps it was from a climb in another building?
    Or perhaps it was a myth (though Carl Fogel's check of snopes.com
    would indicate that if it's a myth, it's not a popular one).

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame

  18. Phil Holman wrote

    Quoted message said:

    The transport of oxygen from the capillaries to the working muscles
    determines the body's aerobic capacity

    I enjoy these arguments of "central VO2max limit" versus "peripheral
    capillarization / local lactate threshold".

    What's funny for me seeing it here is that _either_ theory is easily
    compatible with the observation that in the Kautz Coyle 1991 studies, elite
    racers were doing substantial propulsive work through pulling up on the
    weight of their leg.

    Ken

  19. Phil Holman wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Improvements in performance after the first 2-3 yr of intense training are
    associated with improvements in LT Vo2 and very little to do with
    improvements in Vo2max. The next question concerns the factors responsible
    for further increases in LT Vo2 and performance.

    My question would be how training for longer-term improvements in LT (or
    VO2max) should be associated with focus on particular muscle groups, such as
    the ones for upward-pull.

    My estimates are that the elite racers in the Coyle 1991 study were getting
    about 10 times as much power out of their upward-pull hip-flexion muscles as
    a casual runner (5-6 mph for over half an hour) but only 5 times as much
    power out of their down-push hip-extension + knee-extension muscles as a
    casual cyclist (12 mph on non-quite-flat road). One obvious explanation was
    that they had given some focus in their training to the upward-pull muscles.

    Some hypotheses on the pros + cons of focusing more training effort on
    upward-pull muscles:

    * both upward-pull (hip flexion) and downward-pull muscles are well
    positioned in the bone-and-pedal linkage to deliver a significant component
    of force and work tangent to the crank-circle.

    * upward-pull muscles are better to focus on because they're generally less
    well-developed than down-push muscles, since there's more "open real estate"
    to add capillaries and mitochondrial enzyme concentration, etc. -- rather
    than trying to cram more capillaries around the already-crowded fibers of
    the glutes and quads. (If there physiological evidence that this priniciple
    works?)

    * since upward-pull muscles have more "open real estate", there's no _need_
    to focus training effort on them. Just distribute training "naturally", and
    the upward-pull "open real estate" will still build disproportionately more
    capillaries and other aerobic infrastructure.

    * the downward-pull muscles are the genetically more "natural" for endurance
    aerobic propulsion, so they have superior biochemistry for improving aerobic
    capacity in response to appropriate training stress, and they have special
    ways to increase their real estate to accommodate more capillaries, etc.
    (I have no idea if this is true). So it's inefficient to apply training
    stress on upward-pull muscles whose genetic programming is not as well
    suited for aerobic adaption. (But this seems to be contradicted by the
    observation of larger upward-pull adaptation manifested by virtually all the
    elite racers in the Coyle + Kautz 1991 study -- apparently without using
    Powercranks for training.)

    VO2max versus LT?
    If it is believed that raising overall VO2max is the only way to raise
    sustainable aerobic power long-term, then I will argue thinking about
    aerobic capacity of the peripheral parts still matters -- because the
    throughput of the whole system is improved (slightly) by improvements in the
    oxygen transport or utilization of any part. So increasing the stroke volume
    of the heart is not the only way to raise VO2max (even if it's the quickest
    way).

    Or it might be that increasing the VO2max of a well-trained athlete requires
    a very large total training stress, in order to stimulate further
    adaptation of Central capacity. This might require first building increased
    local peripheral aerobic capacity in order to be able to then apply a
    larger-enough training stress on the Central system. (of course if you
    believe both that VO2max is all that matters, and that it can't be increased
    in a well-trained bicycle racer, then you likely didn't read this far)

    Ken

  20. Ken Roberts said:

    Phil Holman wrote

    Quoted message said:

    The transport of oxygen from the capillaries to the working muscles
    determines the body's aerobic capacity

    I enjoy these arguments of "central VO2max limit" versus "peripheral
    capillarization / local lactate threshold".

    What's funny for me seeing it here is that _either_ theory is easily
    compatible with the observation that in the Kautz Coyle 1991 studies, elite
    racers were doing substantial propulsive work through pulling up on the
    weight of their leg.

    Ken

    Ok, but only since you enjoy it! ;-)

    My exercise physiology is 1980's, but I think it may still be relevant.
    Here's how I remember how central vs peripheral training effects were
    explained.

    Training is creating the conditions that stimulate the body to make the
    changes.

    So, central capacity (ie heart function mostly, plus blood, and also
    fine neurological adaptation, as suggested by the study of pros above))
    is best trained by sustained endurance work with large muscle masses.
    Sustained, (for heart function) because this gives a greater volume of
    work that can be done which causes the adaptation (ie the stimulus).
    Intermittant higher intensity work is less effective for central
    effects simply because you cannot do as much of it before exhaustion.
    This is based on heart stroke volume being near max. at endurance
    intensities.

    Peripheral effects are better trained by higher intensity work because
    it is required to cause the muscle conditions that lead to adaptaion.
    Very high intensity alactic work demands a high rate of splitting ATP
    locally, so you develop the ability to split it faster. Very high
    intensity anaerobic lactic work (30-60 seconds) develops the ability to
    create energy from glycogen very fast. Longer anaerobic work develops
    the ability to handle more lactic acid, but is not quite as good at
    training peak lactic energy production, etc.

    The traditional model of endurance training earlier in the training
    plan, then interval training later , was based on creating the central
    adaptation first, which takes longer, but is maintainable with lower
    volumes, but also builds the general resistance to stress (and more
    training later). Higher intensity training has faster effects, but can
    more easily lead to overtraining.

    This suggests (to me anyway) that if adding muscle mass to the cycling
    action is central (eg mostly neurological?), it should be done in
    endurance training. If it is mostly local, it should be done in later
    more intense training. The answer is proabably both, but will always be
    limited by the evolutionary effects that make our antigravity muscles
    the main movers.

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.