Re: OT: Question about seeds

Phred said:

In article said:

I have researched the gardening club, Google and the garden newsgroups but
I get conflicting info. I have some 4 o'clock dwarf seeds. I know they need
to be soaked overnight. Unfortunately it has been raining here for 3 days
and the ground is way to wet to plant the seeds. I would use top soil but I
have to transplant some bluebells because the 4 o'clocks are going where
the bluebells are. Are the seeds ruined. If not is it okay to leave them in
the water another day or so? Many of you are avid gardeners and I thought I
may get better answers. Thankyouverymuch.

G'day Mike,

You've got me a little puzzled. Why do you think it might be okay to
hold the seeds in water for another day or so, but not plant them into
wet soil? Or was your concern really that it's too wet to move the
bluebells?

I notice that others have recommended bunging the seeds into pots as
a holding measure. Now, I admit I'm not familiar with either of your
temperate(?) species, but I can say that plants in peat pots,
jiffy-7s, large pots, whatever, *never* develop a root system like a
plant grown from seed in the ground.

I agree with you Phred. Put the seeds into the wet ground and be done
with it. If the rain isn't so heavy it washes the seeds away, they'll
have a head start and he won't have to water them daily until they
sprout.

BTW: Why move the bluebells? Won't they be gone by the time the 4
o'clocks are of any size anyway?

Quoted message said:

With grasses and other fibrous rooted species it's no big deal; but
with dicots that usually have a defined tap root the disadvantage
lasts for years, if not for the lifetime of the plant. (Probably not
much of a problem in practice with annuals though.)

Cheers, Phred.

Practice safe eating. Always use condiments.

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:04:47 GMT, Dog3 <uhoh@ajfl;ajklsd;ajlds.nutz>

Quoted message said:

sf <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I agree with you Phred. Put the seeds into the wet ground and be done
with it. If the rain isn't so heavy it washes the seeds away, they'll
have a head start and he won't have to water them daily until they
sprout.

BTW: Why move the bluebells? Won't they be gone by the time the 4
o'clocks are of any size anyway?

Hell I don't know. I bought them on impulse without researching them. Then
I got sick and did not have time. Are they like the hyacinth which
disappears after awhile? I really need to get back to my gardening club.

I think you'll be fine planting one on top of the onther.

Bluebells -
http://www.uksafari.com/bluebells.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1082/is_n2_v41/ai_19321761

4 O'Clocks -
http://www.gardenguides.com/seedcatalog/flowers/fouroclocks-bulk.htm
http://www.ehow.com/how_7094_grow-four-oclock.html
http://www.humeseeds.com/fouro.htm

Practice safe eating. Always use condiments.

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:02:28 GMT, Dog3 <uhoh@ajfl;ajklsd;ajlds.nutz>

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Phred) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

You would have to see what my yard is like to probably get a grasp on it. I
can not transplant anything. I sink. I rained really hard. I don't have a
problem planting in wet soil, it is transplanting I'm having the problem
with.

You really should let the soil dry a bit before transplanting or
planting anything new.

Soaking seeds is done to help soften the seeds outer shell so the seed
sprout can "break through"...too much water can rot the seed. So can
planting seeds in soil that is saturated. The seeds may rot before
they sprout.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I notice that others have recommended bunging the seeds into pots as
a holding measure. Now, I admit I'm not familiar with either of your
temperate(?) species, but I can say that plants in peat pots,
jiffy-7s, large pots, whatever, *never* develop a root system like a
plant grown from seed in the ground.

That's not true. You can start seeds, cuttings, etc in pots...the
trick is to get them out of a small pot before they become root bound.
Now, that being said, there are some things you don't want to start in
pots. Things like carrots, beets, etc...because transplanting them is
a serious pain...and you'll likely lose more than you save.

Think about it.....Professional growers start everything in pots from
trees to flowers to vegetables...and we buy them at Nursery's....and
take them home and transplant them.

I start several things various pots...including the Jiffy cubes.. and
have great success... because I get them out of the small containers
before the root systems become to large. You just need to be careful
about what you start them in and don't damage the roots when you
transplant them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

With grasses and other fibrous rooted species it's no big deal; but
with dicots that usually have a defined tap root the disadvantage
lasts for years, if not for the lifetime of the plant. (Probably not
much of a problem in practice with annuals though.)

Ummm...I think you're mixing some things here. Plants with a large
tap root include parsley, tomatoes, carrots,etc. Tap roots are not the
decisive factor in determining dicots from monocots.

It is difficult to transplant things with large tap roots IF you leave
them in a small pot too long. See above comments.

Quoted message said:

This afternoon I am going to dig up the bluebells. If it is too wet to put
them where I want them, I'll put them in a bucket of water with a root
stimulator for a day or 2.

Storing plants in a bucket of water for more that 24 hours is not the
best idea...even if you add a rooting hormone. You're better off
storing them in a bucket of sand...or potting soil. You really don't
want any roots growing in water...they are never as strong as roots
grown in a planting medium.

Your local nursery will have different sized bags of growing medium
available...and you can get as much or as little as you need for a
temporary "holding place".

Quoted message said:

After digging them up, I'll put the seeds in but
first I'll use some top soil and some organic material on the spot. We'll
see what happens.

You can try that...but understand that planting anything..seeds or
plants.. in saturated soil leaves them open to all kinds of bad stuff
that flourishes in wet soil. Also, over saturated soil has less
oxygen..and plants need oxygen to survive. Seeds can rot before they
germinate..and plants can die if left in too much moisture.

People forget that plants take in oxygen through their roots...not
their leaves..

Store your plants properly until your soil drys out..then transplant
them...and there is no law against taking seeds that have been soaked
and putting them into pots... letting them sprout (germinate) and then
transplanting them. I do it all the time.

Debra

Debra Fritz said:

Soaking seeds is done to help soften the seeds outer shell so the seed
sprout can "break through"...too much water can rot the seed. So can
planting seeds in soil that is saturated. The seeds may rot before
they sprout.

Any 5th grader can tell you that's wrong. The seeds will sprout in
water (just as they will sprout without light), but if the conditions
are "too wet" (literally swimming in water) - yes, the sprouts will
rot in a few days. I sincerely doubt Michaels garden is in that
condition since he's not worried about his bluebells, which are in the
same bed he wants to plant his 4 O'clock seeds.

Practice safe eating. Always use condiments.

G'day Debra,

In article <[email hidden]>,

Debra Fritz said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Phred) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I notice that others have recommended bunging the seeds into pots as
a holding measure. Now, I admit I'm not familiar with either of your
temperate(?) species, but I can say that plants in peat pots,
jiffy-7s, large pots, whatever, *never* develop a root system like a
plant grown from seed in the ground.

That's not true. You can start seeds, cuttings, etc in pots...the
trick is to get them out of a small pot before they become root bound.
Now, that being said, there are some things you don't want to start in
pots. Things like carrots, beets, etc...because transplanting them is
a serious pain...and you'll likely lose more than you save.

Think about it.....Professional growers start everything in pots from
trees to flowers to vegetables...and we buy them at Nursery's....and
take them home and transplant them.

Of course they do. Like you say, it's the only practical way to
handle many things -- especially if they have to be transported for
sale of whatever. :-) However, plants grown from containers will
never develop a truely natural root system as they do from seed in the
ground. [Well, maybe "never" brings up the old "white crow" logic, so
let's just say it's 'highly improbable they will ever develop..."]

Quoted message said:

I start several things various pots...including the Jiffy cubes.. and
have great success... because I get them out of the small containers
before the root systems become to large. You just need to be careful
about what you start them in and don't damage the roots when you
transplant them.

True. Otherwise you won't have much of a root system at all!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

With grasses and other fibrous rooted species it's no big deal; but
with dicots that usually have a defined tap root the disadvantage
lasts for years, if not for the lifetime of the plant. (Probably not
much of a problem in practice with annuals though.)

Ummm...I think you're mixing some things here. Plants with a large
tap root include parsley, tomatoes, carrots,etc. Tap roots are not the
decisive factor in determining dicots from monocots.

True. Monocots are defined by having a single embryonic leaf, as
distinct from two in dicots (unsurprisingly ;-). Monocots *usually*
have fibrous roots, among other charactersitics in leaf venation and
stem anatomy that usually go along with the type and differ from those
found in typical dicots.

Actually, I'm a bit unsure what your statement about parsley etc. is
meant to demonstrate. The three species you mention are all dicots.
Monocots that you might expect to find in home vegie gardens are
things like lemon grass and sweet corn.

Cheers, Phred.

--
[email hidden]

sf said:

Debra Fritz said:

Soaking seeds is done to help soften the seeds outer shell so the seed
sprout can "break through"...too much water can rot the seed. So can
planting seeds in soil that is saturated. The seeds may rot before
they sprout.

Any 5th grader can tell you that's wrong. The seeds will sprout in
water (just as they will sprout without light), but if the conditions
are "too wet" (literally swimming in water) - yes, the sprouts will
rot in a few days. I sincerely doubt Michaels garden is in that
condition since he's not worried about his bluebells, which are in the
same bed he wants to plant his 4 O'clock seeds.

Sorry...I wasn't able to communicate properly. Yes, you can sprout a
variety of things in water. How many of us learned that using a sweet
potato in the third grade? But many seeds REQUIRE some help before
they can germinate...and soaking in water is one way to help SOME
SEEDS...not all!

But there is a huge difference between a jar or glass of water and
over saturated soil. Soil that is too wet doesn't retain oxygen...and
plants need oxygen..It's the soil particles mixed with the water that
cause the "clogs". Yes, I'm simplifying things here...

A glass of water has oxygen in it...and no soil particles to interfere
with the absorption process.

But......Roots that are formed in water are not as strong as roots
that are formed in a growing medium. Now, if you're a hydroponic
gardener...and you are growing plants in a liquid..and you're not
going to transplant them into soil, you can be very sucessful..but if
you start seeds, cuttings, etc. in water..and then try to transplant
them into a garden, you are going to have a very high failure
rate...because those water grown roots are going to break easily....

Almost every County has a Cooperative Extension Service...and they
provide a wealth of information about plants and growing things
free...Many Counties also have a Master Gardener Program within their
Cooperative Extension Program...and they answer questions and hand out
information, also without charge.

I'm a member of the Orange County Master Gardener Program. Here is our
web site http://www.uccemg.com/ ( University of California
Cooperative Extension Master Gardeners) Anyone can go there and there
is an email address you can use to ask questions. Your questions will
be answered by a Master Gardener who has a variety of sources
available to help them find the right answers.

If you don't live in Southern California, you'll need to let them know
where you live, and they will either get you an answer or find you the
local chapter of Master Gardeners contact information.

Debra

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:12:53 GMT, [email hidden] (Phred)

Quoted message said:

G'day Debra,

True. Monocots are defined by having a single embryonic leaf, as
distinct from two in dicots (unsurprisingly ;-). Monocots *usually*
have fibrous roots, among other charactersitics in leaf venation and
stem anatomy that usually go along with the type and differ from those
found in typical dicots.

Monocots have only one cotyledon, dicots have two cotyledons. A
cotyledon contains stored food and serves as a food reservoir. Aside
from the difference between the seeds of monocots and dicots there are
other different structures that separate monocots and dicots. Monocots
have long, narrow leaves with parallel veins (such as grasses.) The
parts of monocot flowers are arranged in threes or in multiples of
three. Dicots have broad leaves with branched veins. The parts of
dicot flowers are arranged in fours and fives or multiples of fours
and fives. Although the distinction between monocots and dicots is not
always as sharp and clear as once thought, it is a useful taxonomic
grouping.

Quoted message said:

Actually, I'm a bit unsure what your statement about parsley etc. is
meant to demonstrate. The three species you mention are all dicots.
Monocots that you might expect to find in home vegie gardens are
things like lemon grass and sweet corn.

Sorry..I was trying to make a point about plants that have long tap
roots...Parsley being one of them.....being easy to start in pots and
transplant successfully if you don't let them get to big before
transplanting.

Phred, I respect your opinion about the differences in the roots of
plants grown in pots and those started directly in the soil, but I
don't agree with it.

And for home gardeners..dealing with over saturated soil...the
chances of failure in direct sowing before the soil dries out is huge.
As is the potential for loss of mature plants that are left with "wet
feet" for any period of time.

Debra

In article said:

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:12:53 GMT, [email hidden] (Phred)

Quoted message said:

G'day Debra,

True. Monocots are defined by having a single embryonic leaf, as
distinct from two in dicots (unsurprisingly ;-). Monocots *usually*
have fibrous roots, among other charactersitics in leaf venation and
stem anatomy that usually go along with the type and differ from those
found in typical dicots.

Monocots have only one cotyledon, dicots have two cotyledons. A
cotyledon contains stored food and serves as a food reservoir. Aside
from the difference between the seeds of monocots and dicots there are
other different structures that separate monocots and dicots. Monocots
have long, narrow leaves with parallel veins (such as grasses.) The
parts of monocot flowers are arranged in threes or in multiples of
three. Dicots have broad leaves with branched veins. The parts of
dicot flowers are arranged in fours and fives or multiples of fours
and fives. Although the distinction between monocots and dicots is not
always as sharp and clear as once thought, it is a useful taxonomic
grouping.

Quoted message said:

Actually, I'm a bit unsure what your statement about parsley etc. is
meant to demonstrate. The three species you mention are all dicots.
Monocots that you might expect to find in home vegie gardens are
things like lemon grass and sweet corn.

Sorry..I was trying to make a point about plants that have long tap
roots...Parsley being one of them.....being easy to start in pots and
transplant successfully if you don't let them get to big before
transplanting.

Phred, I respect your opinion about the differences in the roots of
plants grown in pots and those started directly in the soil, but I
don't agree with it.

Yeah. As I said initially, it makes bugger all practical difference
if dealing with annuals like in the average vegie garden where things
usually get adequate water and other TLC.

One example of where you do notice a difference is removing perennials
such as shrubs: it's usually relatively easy if they're transplants
originally and often damned hard if they were grown from seed _in
situ_. (Soil type will have a large affect on this too, of course.)
Also, mature trees grown as transplants are more susceptible to being
uprooted in cyclones than those grown "naturally". Of course, these
are just my observations in the deep north of the deep south. YMMV.

Quoted message said:

And for home gardeners..dealing with over saturated soil...the
chances of failure in direct sowing before the soil dries out is huge.
As is the potential for loss of mature plants that are left with "wet
feet" for any period of time.

Cheers, Phred.

--
[email hidden]