Re: OT Anorexia vs. Obesity

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
:
: Pietism is the term defined by this use of "puritan in the original post
: and denotes a religious group where pietism was a clear core belief. . It
: derives from the ideas of john calvin and the puritans were a radical
: expression of it. It has been said the puritans came to america for
: freedom of religion, one freedom of which was to force others to do same.
:
:
: >Maybe they teach a different version of what the term "Puritan ethic" is
in
: >Texas but I was taught and understand that it means or focuses on a
belief
: >in religious duty, work (hence the term "work ethic"😉, conscience, and
: >self-restraint, etc. It also has a secondary meaning that has to do with
: >being financially capable as an individual. What that has to do with beer
: >and pajamas, I have no idea.

You just haven't gotten into that way of thinking enough. It also
encompasses the "morality" of drinking beer or the "morality" of sleeping
late. You were just taught the innocuous stuff.

Pat in TX

You are right in the historical source speciffically for pietism's
europian roots, but both puritism and pietisim are used interchangabily to
denote the radical "thou shall not" blend of traditions in the us. The
people in new england were of the calvin stream and in their social
relations reflected the notions spoken of in the original post. Those of
the piety stream would then say "amen".

Quoted message said:

You've got the wrong theological stream there, and Calvin would probably
be aghast at being called a pietist, much less the source of pietism.

Contrary to Calvin's emphasis on a reasoned or logical approach to the
Bible and Christianity, pietism grew out of Lutheran roots.

[Begin]
Originally a German Lutheran religious movement of the 17th and 18th
centuries, pietism emphasized heartfelt religious devotion, ethical
purity, charitable activity, and pastoral theology rather than
sacramental or dogmatic precision. The term now refers to all religious
expressions that emphasize inward devotion and moral purity. With roots
in Dutch precisionism and mysticism, pietism emerged in reaction to the
formality of Lutheran orthodoxy.

In his Pia Desideria (1675), Philipp Jakob Spener proposed a "heart
religion" to replace the dominant "head religion." Beginning with
religious meetings in Spener's home, the movement grew rapidly,
especially after August Hermann Francke (1663 - 1727) made the new
University of Halle a Pietist center. Nikolaus Ludwig, Graf von
Zinzendorf, a student of Francke's and godson of Spener, helped spread
the movement. His Moravian Church promoted evangelical awakenings
throughout Europe and in North America in the 18th and 19th centuries.
John Wesley and Methodism were profoundly influenced by pietism.
[End]
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/pietism.htm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe they teach a different version of what the term "Puritan ethic" is in
Texas but I was taught and understand that it means or focuses on a belief
in religious duty, work (hence the term "work ethic"😉, conscience, and
self-restraint, etc. It also has a secondary meaning that has to do with
being financially capable as an individual. What that has to do with beer
and pajamas, I have no idea.

The Puritan ethic was based primarily on the belief that a believer's
salvation should be evident in his life and works.* Hence, hard work,
honest dealings, support for neighbor and community, and--in some
versions--a belief that God will allow such believers to prosper.

* IMO we could use a little Puritan ethic in some of these threads.
--
Don
[email hidden]

It seems to me I heard somewhere that [email hidden] wrote in
article <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Pietism is the term defined by this use of "puritan in the original post
and denotes a religious group where pietism was a clear core belief. . It
derives from the ideas of john calvin and the puritans were a radical
expression of it. It has been said the puritans came to america for
freedom of religion, one freedom of which was to force others to do same.

You've got the wrong theological stream there, and Calvin would probably
be aghast at being called a pietist, much less the source of pietism.

Contrary to Calvin's emphasis on a reasoned or logical approach to the
Bible and Christianity, pietism grew out of Lutheran roots.

[Begin]
Originally a German Lutheran religious movement of the 17th and 18th
centuries, pietism emphasized heartfelt religious devotion, ethical
purity, charitable activity, and pastoral theology rather than
sacramental or dogmatic precision. The term now refers to all religious
expressions that emphasize inward devotion and moral purity. With roots
in Dutch precisionism and mysticism, pietism emerged in reaction to the
formality of Lutheran orthodoxy.

In his Pia Desideria (1675), Philipp Jakob Spener proposed a "heart
religion" to replace the dominant "head religion." Beginning with
religious meetings in Spener's home, the movement grew rapidly,
especially after August Hermann Francke (1663 - 1727) made the new
University of Halle a Pietist center. Nikolaus Ludwig, Graf von
Zinzendorf, a student of Francke's and godson of Spener, helped spread
the movement. His Moravian Church promoted evangelical awakenings
throughout Europe and in North America in the 18th and 19th centuries.
John Wesley and Methodism were profoundly influenced by pietism.
[End]
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/pietism.htm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe they teach a different version of what the term "Puritan ethic" is in
Texas but I was taught and understand that it means or focuses on a belief
in religious duty, work (hence the term "work ethic"😉, conscience, and
self-restraint, etc. It also has a secondary meaning that has to do with
being financially capable as an individual. What that has to do with beer
and pajamas, I have no idea.

The Puritan ethic was based primarily on the belief that a believer's
salvation should be evident in his life and works.* Hence, hard work,
honest dealings, support for neighbor and community, and--in some
versions--a belief that God will allow such believers to prosper.

* IMO we could use a little Puritan ethic in some of these threads.
--
Don
[email hidden]

Pat said:

:>Maybe they teach a different version of what the term "Puritan ethic" is
in
:>Texas but I was taught and understand that it means or focuses on a
belief
:>in religious duty, work (hence the term "work ethic"😉, conscience, and
:>self-restraint, etc. It also has a secondary meaning that has to do with
:>being financially capable as an individual. What that has to do with beer
:>and pajamas, I have no idea.

You just haven't gotten into that way of thinking enough. It also
encompasses the "morality" of drinking beer or the "morality" of sleeping
late. You were just taught the innocuous stuff.

Pat in TX

Yes, you're right. I have not "gotten into" thinking of the incorrect
definitions of Puritanism. I'm funny that way.

It seems to me I heard somewhere that [email hidden] wrote in
article <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

You are right in the historical source speciffically for pietism's
europian roots, but both puritism and pietisim are used interchangabily to
denote the radical "thou shall not" blend of traditions in the us. The
people in new england were of the calvin stream and in their social
relations reflected the notions spoken of in the original post. Those of
the piety stream would then say "amen".

The people in New England, true to their Calvinist influences, stressed
the rational study of Scripture and the duty to build "a city of God"
through their rigid honesty, hard work, and devotion. The Pietists,
OTOH, came from Lutheran roots starting in the mid- to late 17th
century, while English Puritans were already in the Netherlands by 1608
and in New England from 1620.

The Pietists were largely of German background, unhappy with the
formalism of Lutheranism of that time; the Moravians were a major
Pietist group and Wesley and the Methodists were influenced by Pietism
although they sprang from the Church of England. Moravians tended to be
more in the middle colonies (Pennsylvania, land of religious freedom?),
while the Methodists were in the middle and southern colonies and on the
western frontier as it opened.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

MU?:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Maybe they teach a different version of what the term "Puritan ethic" is in
>Texas but I was taught and understand that it means or focuses on a belief
>in religious duty, work (hence the term "work ethic"😉, conscience, and
>self-restraint, etc. It also has a secondary meaning that has to do with
>being financially capable as an individual. What that has to do with beer
>and pajamas, I have no idea.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Puritan ethic was based primarily on the belief that a believer's
salvation should be evident in his life and works.* Hence, hard work,
honest dealings, support for neighbor and community, and--in some
versions--a belief that God will allow such believers to prosper.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* IMO we could use a little Puritan ethic in some of these threads.

And in our world.
--
Don
[email hidden]

">>The Puritan ethic was based primarily on the belief that a believer's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

salvation should be evident in his life and works.* Hence, hard work,
honest dealings, support for neighbor and community, and--in some
versions--a belief that God will allow such believers to prosper.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* IMO we could use a little Puritan ethic in some of these threads.

And in our world."

The "ethic" was as above and became a common feature in many of the
religious streams, there was a lot of incest, especially in the western
areas. It was a common stream in the "great awakening", puritan and
pietism alike where such public displays of not drinking, playing cards,
dancing, etc. were the outward signs of spiritual correctness. The
original post was mentioning how the ethic, ie. religious peer pressure,
was used to set and enforce behavior in such areas as not rising earily,
over indulgence etc. and continues to the present in the moral model of
being over weight,ie. it a failure of proper application of moral fiber
and continued over weight is a sure sign of the absense of same. All of
this has the clear earmarks of the "economic" model the ethic defined and
promoted. If one is among the chosen and "right" with God, then such
behavior would not be in evidence.

It seems to me I heard somewhere that [email hidden] wrote in
article <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

">>The Puritan ethic was based primarily on the belief that a believer's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

salvation should be evident in his life and works.* Hence, hard work,
honest dealings, support for neighbor and community, and--in some
versions--a belief that God will allow such believers to prosper.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* IMO we could use a little Puritan ethic in some of these threads.

Quoted message said:

And in our world."

Quoted message said:

The "ethic" was as above and became a common feature in many of the
religious streams,

The Puritan ethic was not identical to "Christian ethics" but was a
specific variety among the Puritans and their spiritual descendants.

Quoted message said:

there was a lot of incest, especially in the western
areas. It was a common stream in the "great awakening", puritan and
pietism alike where such public displays of not drinking, playing cards,
dancing, etc. were the outward signs of spiritual correctness.

Yes, but this is plain ethics and human behavior, not "the Puritan
ethic," which is a specific concept. Please cite evidence that there
was "a lot of incest, especially in the western areas." Immorality, for
sure, because society has always and will always have those tendencies.
But incest is a specific type of behavior, and you demean a whole region
of the US when you say it was common in the great awakening and the
other revivals.

Quoted message said:

The
original post was mentioning how the ethic, ie. religious peer pressure,
was used to set and enforce behavior in such areas as not rising earily,
over indulgence etc. and continues to the present in the moral model of
being over weight,ie. it a failure of proper application of moral fiber
and continued over weight is a sure sign of the absense of same.

Yes, elements common to (probably) all Christian ethics systems, but not
specifically what "the Puritan ethic" stood for.

Quoted message said:

All of
this has the clear earmarks of the "economic" model the ethic defined and
promoted.

For the Puritans, prosperity could be taken as evidence that God was
pleased with the believer, it was not something to be pursued as you
seem to imply (and I failed to find any "economic model" in what's left
of the thread).

Quoted message said:

If one is among the chosen and "right" with God, then such
behavior would not be in evidence.

Which behavior? The economic model? The immorality?
--
Don
[email hidden]

This discussion can go two ways. We can get into the validity of the
theological doctrines of the puritism and pietism as practiced in the us,
or it can proceed as a historical and sociological observation of how they
played out in the mental constructs and behavior regarding the invention
of the "fat is a moral failure" model observed in present times and the
genesis of this thread. I can go either way but they need to be seperated
for the sake of clarity. The works as evidence of salvation model
practiced in the us sprang from both the puritism and pietism roots and
merged and interacted in the great awakening in the 19 cent. The incest
remark was with respect to this latter "interbreeding" among protestant
traditions. This model can and did slip easily into a salvation by works
model in practice. It is intresting to note that the subject at hand,
obesity and the moral fiber model would have played itself out in those
thimes in the works as evidence of salvation model where the obese in
medical terms would be seen as haveing the "health and prosperity"
evidenceon their side as obesity would demonstrate God's favor.