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Re: Obese workers' pay lower -- Stanford U.. Study

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
10 May 2005
Last activity
11 May 2005
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A_M
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  1. Roger Zoul said:


    A_M <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :> X-No-Archive: Yes
    :>
    :> Interesting stuff. I haven't read the paper itself but I have some
    :> general comments. (1) I'm wondering if they control for
    :> self-selection bias - "obese" and unhealthy workers would choose to
    :> work for employers with healthcare insurance whereas "obese" and
    :> healthy workers wouldn't care,

    Why would "obese" and healthy workers not care about having an employer that
    provides healthcare insurance?

    My grasp on the healthcare insurance system in US is rather poor so my
    guess can be wrong, please correct me if I am wrong... My take is that
    people who are having health problems would prefer to work for employers
    with healthcare insurance so that the treatment for some or all of their
    existing health problems would be paid for by the employers' insurers.
    For a healthy worker, the difference in healthcare expenses in working
    for the two types of employers is not as big as for the unhealthy
    workers. Although the healthy workers may become inflicted with health
    problems in the future, they are healthy now and they wouldn't have to
    start paying for medical expenses even if they switch from a
    with-insurance to a without-insurance employer.

    Such effects can be adjusted for if they have some information on
    absence rates, medical expenses, that sort of thing, to identify the
    healthy obese from the unhealthy obese...

    Off swimming... ttyl!

  2. A_M <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :> Roger Zoul wrote:
    :> >
    :> > A_M <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :> > :> X-No-Archive: Yes
    :> > :>
    :> > :> Interesting stuff. I haven't read the paper itself but I have
    :> > :> some general comments. (1) I'm wondering if they control for
    :> > :> self-selection bias - "obese" and unhealthy workers would
    :> > :> choose to
    :> > :> work for employers with healthcare insurance whereas "obese" and
    :> > :> healthy workers wouldn't care,
    :> >
    :> > Why would "obese" and healthy workers not care about having an
    :> > employer that provides healthcare insurance?
    :> >
    :>
    :> My grasp on the healthcare insurance system in US is rather poor so
    :> my
    :> guess can be wrong, please correct me if I am wrong... My take is
    :> that people who are having health problems would prefer to work for
    :> employers
    :> with healthcare insurance so that the treatment for some or all of
    :> their existing health problems would be paid for by the employers'
    :> insurers.

    That's the case for everyone, obese or not, healthy or not.

    :> For a healthy worker, the difference in healthcare expenses in
    :> working
    :> for the two types of employers is not as big as for the unhealthy
    :> workers.

    :>Although the healthy workers may become inflicted with
    :> health problems in the future, they are healthy now and they
    :> wouldn't have to
    :> start paying for medical expenses even if they switch from a
    :> with-insurance to a without-insurance employer.

    ??? The entire point of insurance is to take care of the unexpected. You
    must be from a country where insurance is provided by the state to everyone.

    :>
    :> Such effects can be adjusted for if they have some information on
    :> absence rates, medical expenses, that sort of thing, to identify the
    :> healthy obese from the unhealthy obese...

    My...

  3. Roger Zoul said:


    ??? The entire point of insurance is to take care of the unexpected. You
    must be from a country where insurance is provided by the state to everyone.

    Well I am in UK. Healthcare is almost free at the point of delivery.
    Unless you have something pretty serious, then you "pay" in terms of
    waiting, waiting, waiting...

    Anyway back to the US case, I have some questions to ask: Say someone
    with diabetes changed jobs. He used to work for an employer with health
    insurance but now he works for an employer without health insurance.
    Does it mean that he will have to start paying for his own health
    insurance? And how about his on-going medical prescriptions - will the
    old employer's insurer continue to pay for them because the conditions
    were diagnosed while he was working for the old employer?

    If a person was diagnosed with diabetes at the age of 40, if he goes to
    get health insurances when he's 45, will the insurer pay for the
    diabetes associated medical treatments?

    I am of the impression that the insurer of the employers may pay for
    medical treatments that are associated with pre-existing conditions...
    I have read it somewhere that in some cases a woman, who was already
    diagnosed with PCOS at the time she started working for her current
    employer, can get her fertility treatment paid for even though she
    needed fertility treatment because of her PCOS.

    Quoted message said:

    :> Such effects can be adjusted for if they have some information on
    :> absence rates, medical expenses, that sort of thing, to identify the
    :> healthy obese from the unhealthy obese...

    My...

    I think they call it identification problem...

  4. A_M <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :> Roger Zoul wrote:
    :> >
    :> > ??? The entire point of insurance is to take care of the
    :> > unexpected. You must be from a country where insurance is
    :> > provided by the state to everyone.
    :> >
    :>
    :> Well I am in UK. Healthcare is almost free at the point of delivery.
    :> Unless you have something pretty serious, then you "pay" in terms of
    :> waiting, waiting, waiting...
    :>
    :> Anyway back to the US case, I have some questions to ask: Say
    :> someone
    :> with diabetes changed jobs. He used to work for an employer with
    :> health insurance but now he works for an employer without health
    :> insurance.
    :> Does it mean that he will have to start paying for his own health
    :> insurance?

    Yes, if he made no other plans...

    And how about his on-going medical prescriptions - will
    :> the
    :> old employer's insurer continue to pay for them because the
    :> conditions
    :> were diagnosed while he was working for the old employer?

    No...the medical package is part of the compensation for the employee.

    :>
    :> If a person was diagnosed with diabetes at the age of 40, if he goes
    :> to
    :> get health insurances when he's 45, will the insurer pay for the
    :> diabetes associated medical treatments?

    Likely, but there are clauses for pre-existing conditions...in some cases...

    :>
    :> I am of the impression that the insurer of the employers may pay for
    :> medical treatments that are associated with pre-existing
    :> conditions...
    :> I have read it somewhere that in some cases a woman, who was already
    :> diagnosed with PCOS at the time she started working for her current
    :> employer, can get her fertility treatment paid for even though she
    :> needed fertility treatment because of her PCOS.

    Well, I know nothing about that...
    :>
    :>
    :>
    :> > :> Such effects can be adjusted for if they have some information
    :> > :> on absence rates, medical expenses, that sort of thing, to
    :> > :> identify the healthy obese from the unhealthy obese...
    :> >
    :> > My...
    :>
    :> I think they call it identification problem...

  5. "A_M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Roger Zoul said:


    ??? The entire point of insurance is to take care of the unexpected.
    You
    must be from a country where insurance is provided by the state to
    everyone.

    Well I am in UK. Healthcare is almost free at the point of delivery.
    Unless you have something pretty serious, then you "pay" in terms of
    waiting, waiting, waiting...

    Anyway back to the US case, I have some questions to ask: Say someone
    with diabetes changed jobs. He used to work for an employer with health
    insurance but now he works for an employer without health insurance.

    The law requires any employer who has 15 employees or more to carry/offer
    Health Insurance. So unless they go to work for a very small mom & pop
    place, more then likely they'll have insurance through the new employer.

    Quoted message said:

    Does it mean that he will have to start paying for his own health
    insurance?

    That's one way to get insurance. To bad, diabetes in the US is considered
    almost uninsurable. In the diabetic newsgroup we often tell folks to get
    life insurance and health insurance before they get an official diagnosis
    otherwise
    its almost impossible to find a company to carry you unless it costs you an
    arm & leg. (no pun intended)

    And how about his on-going medical prescriptions - will the

    Quoted message said:

    old employer's insurer continue to pay for them because the conditions
    were diagnosed while he was working for the old employer?

    Most companies whether you are fired or quit have whats call COBRA.
    Not sure what it stands for, but you can continue with the same health ins.
    after you leave employment, but you now pay the premimums on it instead
    of your employer. Most COBRA's cost $500 and upward. My husband
    kept ours after he got a better job, but we had to wait 90days for new
    insurance to be active. Our COBRA payments were $784 a month. That
    was for three people and we still had a $500 deductible and our co-pays
    applied as well.

    Quoted message said:


    If a person was diagnosed with diabetes at the age of 40, if he goes to
    get health insurances when he's 45, will the insurer pay for the
    diabetes associated medical treatments?

    Only way most diabetics get insurance is to find gainful employment.
    The law prohibits a group policy from excluding pre-existing conditions such
    as diabetes from their policies. But if you lapse having insurance for
    12mons or longer, you can be made to wait another 12mons before
    insurance is active for you, but you still must continue paying monthyly
    even though you aren't covered because of a pre-existing condition.

    Quoted message said:


    I am of the impression that the insurer of the employers may pay for
    medical treatments that are associated with pre-existing conditions...
    I have read it somewhere that in some cases a woman, who was already
    diagnosed with PCOS at the time she started working for her current
    employer, can get her fertility treatment paid for even though she
    needed fertility treatment because of her PCOS.

    Fertility treatment is considered "Optional" in the US. I've never seen
    health coverage cover this. Unless there is another condition that needs
    to be medically dealt with and a benefit is fertility treatment.
    -(I'm assuming fertility treatment is help with getting pregnant?)

    Same as no insurance policy will cover cosmetic plastic surgery. Only
    in the past 5-10yrs have insurances began to cover reconstruction plastic
    surgery for women who've had a mastecomy. Before you were on your
    own.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    :> Such effects can be adjusted for if they have some information on
    :> absence rates, medical expenses, that sort of thing, to identify the
    :> healthy obese from the unhealthy obese...

    My...

    I think they call it identification problem...

  6. "RK" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    The law requires any employer who has 15 employees or more to carry/offer
    Health Insurance. So unless they go to work for a very small mom & pop
    place, more then likely they'll have insurance through the new employer.

    That leaves out contract workers, temps, and part-timers

    --
    No Husband Has Ever Been Shot While Doing The Dishes

  7. Thanks for the answers. The devil is in the details kind of thing... I
    need time to digest the info, but thanks.

    Roger Zoul said:


    A_M <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :> Roger Zoul wrote:
    :> >
    :> > ??? The entire point of insurance is to take care of the
    :> > unexpected. You must be from a country where insurance is
    :> > provided by the state to everyone.
    :> >
    :>
    :> Well I am in UK. Healthcare is almost free at the point of delivery.
    :> Unless you have something pretty serious, then you "pay" in terms of
    :> waiting, waiting, waiting...
    :>
    :> Anyway back to the US case, I have some questions to ask: Say
    :> someone
    :> with diabetes changed jobs. He used to work for an employer with
    :> health insurance but now he works for an employer without health
    :> insurance.
    :> Does it mean that he will have to start paying for his own health
    :> insurance?

    Yes, if he made no other plans...

    And how about his on-going medical prescriptions - will
    :> the
    :> old employer's insurer continue to pay for them because the
    :> conditions
    :> were diagnosed while he was working for the old employer?

    No...the medical package is part of the compensation for the employee.

    :>
    :> If a person was diagnosed with diabetes at the age of 40, if he goes
    :> to
    :> get health insurances when he's 45, will the insurer pay for the
    :> diabetes associated medical treatments?

    Likely, but there are clauses for pre-existing conditions...in some cases...

    :>
    :> I am of the impression that the insurer of the employers may pay for
    :> medical treatments that are associated with pre-existing
    :> conditions...
    :> I have read it somewhere that in some cases a woman, who was already
    :> diagnosed with PCOS at the time she started working for her current
    :> employer, can get her fertility treatment paid for even though she
    :> needed fertility treatment because of her PCOS.

    Well, I know nothing about that...
    :>
    :>
    :>
    :> > :> Such effects can be adjusted for if they have some information
    :> > :> on absence rates, medical expenses, that sort of thing, to
    :> > :> identify the healthy obese from the unhealthy obese...
    :> >
    :> > My...
    :>
    :> I think they call it identification problem...

  8. In news:[email hidden],
    RK <[email hidden]> stated
    | "A_M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    | news:[email hidden]...
    ||
    | And how about his on-going medical prescriptions - will the
    || old employer's insurer continue to pay for them because the
    || conditions were diagnosed while he was working for the old employer?
    |
    | Most companies whether you are fired or quit have whats call COBRA.
    | Not sure what it stands for, but you can continue with the same
    | health ins. after you leave employment, but you now pay the premimums
    | on it instead
    | of your employer. Most COBRA's cost $500 and upward. My husband
    | kept ours after he got a better job, but we had to wait 90days for new
    | insurance to be active. Our COBRA payments were $784 a month. That
    | was for three people and we still had a $500 deductible and our
    | co-pays applied as well.

    COBRA is a federal law which requires companies with 20 or more employees to
    allow employees leaving their employ to continue insurance at the employee's
    own cost for 18 months.
    |

  9. Hi RK,

    Thanks for the v detailed answers. I find what you said for most
    diabetics the only way to get insurance is to find gainful employment
    fascinating - and frightening. To me the amount of money you and your
    family are paying for health insurance looks staggering!

    I'm going to sit down and read the article tonight. Hopefully I'll
    understand more about the health insurance market in US. Many thanks
    again for your help.

    Ada

    RK said:


    "A_M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Roger Zoul said:


    ??? The entire point of insurance is to take care of the unexpected.
    You
    must be from a country where insurance is provided by the state to
    everyone.

    Well I am in UK. Healthcare is almost free at the point of delivery.
    Unless you have something pretty serious, then you "pay" in terms of
    waiting, waiting, waiting...

    Anyway back to the US case, I have some questions to ask: Say someone
    with diabetes changed jobs. He used to work for an employer with health
    insurance but now he works for an employer without health insurance.

    The law requires any employer who has 15 employees or more to carry/offer
    Health Insurance. So unless they go to work for a very small mom & pop
    place, more then likely they'll have insurance through the new employer.

    Quoted message said:

    Does it mean that he will have to start paying for his own health
    insurance?

    That's one way to get insurance. To bad, diabetes in the US is considered
    almost uninsurable. In the diabetic newsgroup we often tell folks to get
    life insurance and health insurance before they get an official diagnosis
    otherwise
    its almost impossible to find a company to carry you unless it costs you an
    arm & leg. (no pun intended)

    And how about his on-going medical prescriptions - will the

    Quoted message said:

    old employer's insurer continue to pay for them because the conditions
    were diagnosed while he was working for the old employer?

    Most companies whether you are fired or quit have whats call COBRA.
    Not sure what it stands for, but you can continue with the same health ins.
    after you leave employment, but you now pay the premimums on it instead
    of your employer. Most COBRA's cost $500 and upward. My husband
    kept ours after he got a better job, but we had to wait 90days for new
    insurance to be active. Our COBRA payments were $784 a month. That
    was for three people and we still had a $500 deductible and our co-pays
    applied as well.

    Quoted message said:


    If a person was diagnosed with diabetes at the age of 40, if he goes to
    get health insurances when he's 45, will the insurer pay for the
    diabetes associated medical treatments?

    Only way most diabetics get insurance is to find gainful employment.
    The law prohibits a group policy from excluding pre-existing conditions such
    as diabetes from their policies. But if you lapse having insurance for
    12mons or longer, you can be made to wait another 12mons before
    insurance is active for you, but you still must continue paying monthyly
    even though you aren't covered because of a pre-existing condition.

    Quoted message said:


    I am of the impression that the insurer of the employers may pay for
    medical treatments that are associated with pre-existing conditions...
    I have read it somewhere that in some cases a woman, who was already
    diagnosed with PCOS at the time she started working for her current
    employer, can get her fertility treatment paid for even though she
    needed fertility treatment because of her PCOS.

    Fertility treatment is considered "Optional" in the US. I've never seen
    health coverage cover this. Unless there is another condition that needs
    to be medically dealt with and a benefit is fertility treatment.
    -(I'm assuming fertility treatment is help with getting pregnant?)

    Same as no insurance policy will cover cosmetic plastic surgery. Only
    in the past 5-10yrs have insurances began to cover reconstruction plastic
    surgery for women who've had a mastecomy. Before you were on your
    own.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    :> Such effects can be adjusted for if they have some information on
    :> absence rates, medical expenses, that sort of thing, to identify the
    :> healthy obese from the unhealthy obese...

    My...

    I think they call it identification problem...

  10. A_M <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :> Hi RK,
    :>
    :> Thanks for the v detailed answers. I find what you said for most
    :> diabetics the only way to get insurance is to find gainful employment
    :> fascinating - and frightening. To me the amount of money you and
    :> your
    :> family are paying for health insurance looks staggering!

    It's really unfair too for those of us who control our diabetes well with
    diet and exercise.

    :>
    :> I'm going to sit down and read the article tonight. Hopefully I'll
    :> understand more about the health insurance market in US. Many thanks
    :> again for your help.
    :>
    :> Ada
    :>
    :>
    :>
    :>
    :> RK wrote:
    :> >
    :> > "A_M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    :> > news:[email hidden]...
    :> > > Roger Zoul wrote:
    :> > >>
    :> > >> ??? The entire point of insurance is to take care of the
    :> > >> unexpected. You
    :> > >> must be from a country where insurance is provided by the state
    :> > >> to everyone.
    :> > >>
    :> > >
    :> > > Well I am in UK. Healthcare is almost free at the point of
    :> > > delivery. Unless you have something pretty serious, then you
    :> > > "pay" in terms of waiting, waiting, waiting...
    :> > >
    :> > > Anyway back to the US case, I have some questions to ask: Say
    :> > > someone with diabetes changed jobs. He used to work for an
    :> > > employer with health insurance but now he works for an employer
    :> > > without health insurance.
    :> >
    :> > The law requires any employer who has 15 employees or more to
    :> > carry/offer Health Insurance. So unless they go to work for a
    :> > very small mom & pop place, more then likely they'll have
    :> > insurance through the new employer.
    :> >
    :> > > Does it mean that he will have to start paying for his own health
    :> > > insurance?
    :> >
    :> > That's one way to get insurance. To bad, diabetes in the US is
    :> > considered almost uninsurable. In the diabetic newsgroup we often
    :> > tell folks to get life insurance and health insurance before they
    :> > get an official diagnosis otherwise
    :> > its almost impossible to find a company to carry you unless it
    :> > costs you an arm & leg. (no pun intended)
    :> >
    :> > And how about his on-going medical prescriptions - will the
    :> > > old employer's insurer continue to pay for them because the
    :> > > conditions were diagnosed while he was working for the old
    :> > > employer?
    :> >
    :> > Most companies whether you are fired or quit have whats call COBRA.
    :> > Not sure what it stands for, but you can continue with the same
    :> > health ins. after you leave employment, but you now pay the
    :> > premimums on it instead
    :> > of your employer. Most COBRA's cost $500 and upward. My husband
    :> > kept ours after he got a better job, but we had to wait 90days for
    :> > new insurance to be active. Our COBRA payments were $784 a month.
    :> > That
    :> > was for three people and we still had a $500 deductible and our
    :> > co-pays applied as well.
    :> >
    :> > >
    :> > > If a person was diagnosed with diabetes at the age of 40, if he
    :> > > goes to get health insurances when he's 45, will the insurer pay
    :> > > for the
    :> > > diabetes associated medical treatments?
    :> >
    :> > Only way most diabetics get insurance is to find gainful
    :> > employment.
    :> > The law prohibits a group policy from excluding pre-existing
    :> > conditions such as diabetes from their policies. But if you lapse
    :> > having insurance for 12mons or longer, you can be made to wait
    :> > another 12mons before
    :> > insurance is active for you, but you still must continue paying
    :> > monthyly even though you aren't covered because of a pre-existing
    :> > condition.
    :> >
    :> > >
    :> > > I am of the impression that the insurer of the employers may pay
    :> > > for medical treatments that are associated with pre-existing
    :> > > conditions...
    :> > > I have read it somewhere that in some cases a woman, who was
    :> > > already diagnosed with PCOS at the time she started working for
    :> > > her current employer, can get her fertility treatment paid for
    :> > > even though she
    :> > > needed fertility treatment because of her PCOS.
    :> >
    :> > Fertility treatment is considered "Optional" in the US. I've
    :> > never seen health coverage cover this. Unless there is another
    :> > condition that needs to be medically dealt with and a benefit is
    :> > fertility treatment. -(I'm assuming fertility treatment is help
    :> > with getting pregnant?)
    :> >
    :> > Same as no insurance policy will cover cosmetic plastic surgery.
    :> > Only
    :> > in the past 5-10yrs have insurances began to cover reconstruction
    :> > plastic surgery for women who've had a mastecomy. Before you were
    :> > on your
    :> > own.
    :> >
    :> > >
    :> > >
    :> > >
    :> > >> :> Such effects can be adjusted for if they have some
    :> > >> :> information on absence rates, medical expenses, that sort of
    :> > >> :> thing, to identify the healthy obese from the unhealthy
    :> > >> :> obese...
    :> > >>
    :> > >> My...
    :> > >
    :> > > I think they call it identification problem...

  11. Regulations on health insurance are mostly determined by the individual
    states. I live in Maryland, where health insurers are required to offer
    group coverage to the self employed, with no limitation for pre-existing
    conditions, with the rates only set by your age and zip code.

    If you live in Florida or Texas, and are self employed or work for a
    small company, you're probably between a rock and a hard place.

    Roger hit the nail on the head, the real purpose of health INSURANCE is
    to cover to unexpected. Sadly there is this great desire to have health
    insurance cover the expected - maintenance prescription drugs, etc. All
    the insurance company is effectively doing is buying the drugs and
    reselling them, with markup to cover their overhead costs as well as
    profit margin. Except that rather than the individual paying the costs
    for their drugs, the costs are spread between all insured. The result is
    that health insurance with liberal coverage policies becomes a good deal
    for the chronically sick, and a bad deal for the healthy.

    I think part of the problem is that the average American has, at best, a
    ninth grade math education (JC will probably argue it is even lower and
    he may be correct) and is unable to comprehend that even with zero
    overhead and profit, insurers can only pay out total benefits equal to
    their total premiums.

    --
    ---
    Chris Smolinski
    Black Cat Systems
    http://www.blackcatsystems.com

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