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Re: Memorial Day (OT)

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Road Cycling
Published
26 May 2008
Last activity
31 May 2008
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MagillaGorilla
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  1. Bill C said:

    If Bush and company aren't guilty of treason it's only because the
    left fought so hard to make it almost impossible to prosecute someone
    for this, but they did that in self defense since there's no question
    in my mind Hanoi Jane, at least, was guilty of it along with many
    others.

    Quoted message said:

    Bill C

    What did Jane Fonda do to be found guilty of treason? Last time I
    checked she had a First Amendment right to protest the war.

    If I were you I would go back and re-read the Constitution if you want
    to know why she wasn't prosecuted for "treason."

    Thanks,

    Magilla

  2. MagillaGorilla said:
    Bill C said:

    If Bush and company aren't guilty of treason it's only because the
    left fought so hard to make it almost impossible to prosecute someone
    for this, but they did that in self defense since there's no question
    in my mind Hanoi Jane, at least, was guilty of it along with many
    others.
    Bill C

    What did Jane Fonda do to be found guilty of treason?  Last time I
    checked she had a First Amendment right to protest the war.

    If I were you I would go back and re-read the Constitution if you want
    to know why she wasn't prosecuted for "treason."

    Thanks,

    Magilla

    Providing material support in the way of propaganda. traveling to the
    enemy country and doing publicity for them, etc...Same stuff Tokyo
    Rose did.
    Bill C

  3. Bill C said:
    MagillaGorilla said:
    Bill C said:

    If Bush and company aren't guilty of treason it's only because the
    left fought so hard to make it almost impossible to prosecute someone
    for this, but they did that in self defense since there's no question
    in my mind Hanoi Jane, at least, was guilty of it along with many
    others.
    Bill C

    What did Jane Fonda do to be found guilty of treason? Last time I
    checked she had a First Amendment right to protest the war.

    If I were you I would go back and re-read the Constitution if you want
    to know why she wasn't prosecuted for "treason."

    Thanks,

    Magilla

    Providing material support in the way of propaganda. traveling to the
    enemy country and doing publicity for them, etc...Same stuff Tokyo
    Rose did.
    Bill C

    It's called free speech and it's protected by the First Amendment.
    Fonda never provided "material support."

    Publicity = free speech

    You're allowed to say you support "the enemy."

    Magilla

  4. Bill C said:
    Quoted message said:

    What did Jane Fonda do to be found guilty of treason?  Last time I
    checked she had a First Amendment right to protest the war.

    If I were you I would go back and re-read the Constitution if you want
    to know why she wasn't prosecuted for "treason."

    Thanks,

    Magilla

    Providing material support in the way of propaganda. traveling to the
    enemy country and doing publicity for them, etc...Same stuff Tokyo
    Rose did.

    I suspect that there was probably a lot more consensus in defining
    what constituted an "enemy country" during WWII than there was during
    the Vietnam war.

  5. MagillaGorilla said:
    Bill C said:

    On May 26, 7:45 am, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Bill C wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > If Bush and company aren't guilty of treason it's only because the
    >left fought so hard to make it almost impossible to prosecute someone
    >for this, but they did that in self defense since there's no question
    >in my mind Hanoi Jane, at least, was guilty of it along with many
    >others.
    >Bill C

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What did Jane Fonda do to be found guilty of treason?  Last time I
    checked she had a First Amendment right to protest the war.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If I were you I would go back and re-read the Constitution if you want
    to know why she wasn't prosecuted for "treason."

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Thanks,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Magilla

    Quoted message said:

    Providing material support in the way of propaganda. traveling to the
    enemy country and doing publicity for them, etc...Same stuff Tokyo
    Rose did.
     Bill C

    It's called free speech and it's protected by the First Amendment.
    Fonda never provided "material support."

    Publicity = free speech

    You're allowed to say you support "the enemy."

    Magilla- Hide quoted text -

    - Show quoted text -

    Yep, you are here. Going there and doing active propaganda work for
    them, and then acting as an agent for them here though crosses the
    line. Ask the folks in the Bund, or anyone oriental looking how "The
    Great Democrat" FDR dealt with them and 99.9% of them weren't doing
    anything or were fighting their asses off for their country, this one,
    while FDR interred their families.
    http://www.sfmuseum.org/war/issei.html
    Something to be proud of?
    Bill C

  6. Andrew Price said:

    On Mon, 26 May 2008 07:32:37 -0700 (PDT), Bill C

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What did Jane Fonda do to be found guilty of treason?  Last time I
    checked she had a First Amendment right to protest the war.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If I were you I would go back and re-read the Constitution if you want
    to know why she wasn't prosecuted for "treason."

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Thanks,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Magilla

    Quoted message said:

    Providing material support in the way of propaganda. traveling to the
    enemy country and doing publicity for them, etc...Same stuff Tokyo
    Rose did.

    I suspect that there was probably a lot more consensus in defining
    what constituted an "enemy country" during WWII than there was during
    the Vietnam war.

    I think N. Vietnam's status was pretty clear, as was manning a N.
    Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun.
    Bill C

  7. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Bill C said:
    MagillaGorilla said:
    Bill C said:

    On May 26, 7:45 am, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    >Bill C wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    >> If Bush and company aren't guilty of treason it's only because the
    >>left fought so hard to make it almost impossible to prosecute someone
    >>for this, but they did that in self defense since there's no question
    >>in my mind Hanoi Jane, at least, was guilty of it along with many
    >>others.
    >>Bill C

    Quoted message said:

    >What did Jane Fonda do to be found guilty of treason?  Last time I
    >checked she had a First Amendment right to protest the war.

    Quoted message said:

    >If I were you I would go back and re-read the Constitution if you want
    >to know why she wasn't prosecuted for "treason."

    Quoted message said:

    >Thanks,

    Quoted message said:

    >Magilla

    Quoted message said:

    Providing material support in the way of propaganda. traveling to the
    enemy country and doing publicity for them, etc...Same stuff Tokyo
    Rose did.
     Bill C

    It's called free speech and it's protected by the First Amendment.
    Fonda never provided "material support."

    Publicity = free speech

    You're allowed to say you support "the enemy."

    Magilla- Hide quoted text -

    - Show quoted text -

    Yep, you are here. Going there and doing active propaganda work for
    them, and then acting as an agent for them here though crosses the
    line. Ask the folks in the Bund, or anyone oriental looking how "The
    Great Democrat" FDR dealt with them and 99.9% of them weren't doing
    anything or were fighting their asses off for their country, this one,
    while FDR interred their families.
    http://www.sfmuseum.org/war/issei.html
    Something to be proud of?

    Funny thing about that: it's the one part of FDR's era that the liberals have
    repudiated and rejected while the rightwingers embrace it.

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Whatever happened to
    Leon Trotsky?
    He got an icepick
    That made his ears burn.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  8. Howard Kveck said:


    Quoted message said:

    Yep, you are here. Going there and doing active propaganda work for
    them, and then acting as an agent for them here though crosses the
    line. Ask the folks in the Bund, or anyone oriental looking how "The
    Great Democrat" FDR dealt with them and 99.9% of them weren't doing
    anything or were fighting their asses off for their country, this one,
    while FDR interred their families.
     http://www.sfmuseum.org/war/issei.html
      Something to be proud of?

    Funny thing about that: it's the one part of FDR's era that the liberals have
    repudiated and rejected while the rightwingers embrace it.

    --
                                  tanx,
                                   Howard

    Whatever happened to
                            Leon Trotsky?
                            He got an icepick
                            That made his ears burn.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?- Hide quoted text -

    - Show quoted text -

    Like Greg says both parties, and their leadership are the problem. As
    for giving him a free pass and still considering him a great man,
    after that "one little mistake" just goes to show that the principles
    involved don't really matter. It's amazing how he rounds up, locks up,
    strips of their possesions massive numbers of American citizens, on
    nothing but suspicion, and is still "The Great Democrat".
    Even if there's no debate of his other policies that makes him one of
    the worst Presidents in US history.
    Bill C

  9. Bill C said:
    Howard Kveck said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yep, you are here. Going there and doing active propaganda work for
    them, and then acting as an agent for them here though crosses the
    line. Ask the folks in the Bund, or anyone oriental looking how "The
    Great Democrat" FDR dealt with them and 99.9% of them weren't doing
    anything or were fighting their asses off for their country, this one,
    while FDR interred their families.
     http://www.sfmuseum.org/war/issei.html
      Something to be proud of?

    Quoted message said:

    Funny thing about that: it's the one part of FDR's era that the liberals have
    repudiated and rejected while the rightwingers embrace it.

    Quoted message said:

    --
                                  tanx,
                                   Howard

    Quoted message said:

    Whatever happened to
                            Leon Trotsky?
                            He got an icepick
                            That made his ears burn.

    Quoted message said:

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?- Hide quoted text -

    Quoted message said:

    - Show quoted text -

    Like Greg says both parties, and their leadership are the problem. As
    for giving him a free pass and still considering him a great man,
    after that "one little mistake" just goes to show that the principles
    involved don't really matter. It's amazing how he rounds up, locks up,
    strips of their possesions massive numbers of American citizens, on
    nothing but suspicion, and is still "The Great Democrat".
     Even if there's no debate of his other policies that makes him one of
    the worst Presidents in US history.

    I'm guessing, but after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, there was
    not only hatred-- and just a whole lot of plenty of it, that carries
    on to this day-- but fear that Japan would strike mainland USA, aided/
    abetted by spies and agents living here.

    Also guessing, but things might have gone better for Japan if they'd
    just gone ahead and declared war on the USA prior to Pearl Harbor. The
    perception was that their diplomats' apparent deception somehow made
    the Pearl Harbor attack "worse".

    The blame goes to the political and military leaders who were not
    prepared when the war they knew was coming arrived.

    How many ships were sunk by German Uboats before coastal cities in the
    USA finally went to blackout status?

    From uboat.net:

    <The magnitude of the disaster for the Allies, and in particular for
    the United States, is in the record. During the United States first
    year in the war, 1,027 Allied ships were lost to the U-boats, most of
    these in the American defense zone. This number represents more than
    half of all ships lost to the U-boats in the whole period of the war
    from 1939 to 1945.>

    Lotta ships lost and lives wasted while they were busy rounding up
    "terrorists" (to put a modern perspective on it) (and slide a comment
    in kinda sideways).

    Simple (at least to get the ball rolling) as a phone call from the
    White House.

    Jane Fonda IMHO is proof you don't have to be blonde to be dumb. Dumb
    dumb dumb. I saw her on Cavett or some talk show just parroting the
    Party Line ("the North will negotiate if you stop bombing" IMS).
    Dumber than Robert McNamara, and that's saying a ton, there.

    It's funny (ha ha, not really) when my daughter expresses envy for my
    growing up in the 60's-- "you had all the good music" and so forth.

    Bunch of [censored], we all paid a big stupid price for it and for what? The
    War Machine has repaired itself and no one will ever be held
    responsible for what has been done. "Mission Accomplished" --D-y

  10. On May 27, 10:56 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    Bunch of [censored], we all paid a big stupid price for it and for what? The
    War Machine has repaired itself and no one will ever be held
    responsible for what has been done.  "Mission Accomplished"    --D-y- Hide quoted text -

    - Show quoted text -

    And unfortunately we just never seen to learn from it either. How the
    hell the GAO and other arms of the government can keep finding
    contractors guilty of everything from fraud to illegally firing on
    civilians and still keep handing them money and extending the
    contracts just goes to show what it's really about in Iraq.
    You've got the problem nailed to D-y. Generations of people, here and
    there are going to pay for this administrations lies.
    I've got no problem with charging Bush and Cheney with treason for
    the cooked intelligence, and causing the US to go to war under what
    they KNEW were false pretenses. There's NO good way out now, no matter
    who's in charge, and the damage is already irreparable in terms of
    lost goodwill, power, money, and lives.
    Bill C

  11. Bill C said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Providing material support in the way of propaganda. traveling to the
    enemy country and doing publicity for them, etc...Same stuff Tokyo
    Rose did.

    I suspect that there was probably a lot more consensus in defining
    what constituted an "enemy country" during WWII than there was during
    the Vietnam war.

    I think N. Vietnam's status was pretty clear, as was manning a N.
    Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun.

    No doubt, from your perspective. But what one person thinks (in this
    instance, you) doesn't define "consensus".

  12. MagillaGorilla schreef:

    Quoted message said:

    Why do you talk in such generic terms? What does "crossing the line"
    mean? Who drew the line? Where is the line?

    You are so far over the line, you can't even SEEE the line anymore! The
    line is a dot to you!

    Candyass.

  13. Bill C said:
    Quoted message said:

    I've got no problem with charging Bush and Cheney with treason for
    the cooked intelligence, and causing the US to go to war under what
    they KNEW were false pretenses. There's NO good way out now, no matter
    who's in charge,

    For Bush, there's always Paraguay. Get him before he steps through the door.

  14. Kyle Legate said:

    Get him before he steps through the
    door.

    Is that like crossing the line?

    Bob Schwartz

  15. Andrew Price said:


    No doubt, from your perspective.  But what one person thinks (in this
    instance, you) doesn't define "consensus".

    Consensus doesn't mean [censored] in law, uless it's by one vote on the
    Supreme court. If it meant anything in society there wouldn't be tens
    of thousands of people locked up for marijuana "crimes", or the
    government wouldn't be taking people's land by eminent domain and
    handing it over to commercial developers.
    Bill C

  16. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted post said:

    The blame goes to the political and military leaders who were not
    prepared when the war they knew was coming arrived.

    Disagree here. USA picked a fight with Japan. USA found
    a dozen ways to deny raw materials to Japan, notwithstanding
    our gift of the sixth avenue el. USA put Japan in a corner
    they had to fight out of; not that Japan did not show
    willing. Everybody knew to some degree that Japan would
    attack. USA could read a great deal of Japanese code
    traffic beforehand. Radar, though new, detected the attack
    force. It suited the politicians to act surprised. Ever
    notice that with all the tonnage sunk at Pearl Harbor it
    was battleships, and not aircraft carriers? The carriers
    were well out of the way. Six months later at the battle
    of Midway the aircraft carriers Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, and
    Yorktown sank.

    --
    Michael Press

  17. Michael Press said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted post said:

    The blame goes to the political and military leaders who were not
    prepared when the war they knew was coming arrived.

    Disagree here. USA picked a fight with Japan. USA found
    a dozen ways to deny raw materials to Japan, notwithstanding
    our gift of the sixth avenue el. USA put Japan in a corner
    they had to fight out of; not that Japan did not show
    willing.  Everybody knew to some degree that Japan would
    attack.  USA could read a great deal of Japanese code
    traffic beforehand. Radar, though new, detected the attack
    force. It suited the politicians to act surprised. Ever
    notice that with all the tonnage sunk at Pearl Harbor it
    was battleships, and not aircraft carriers? The carriers
    were well out of the way. Six months later at the battle
    of Midway the aircraft carriers Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, and
    Yorktown sank.

    --
    Michael Press

    You can add to that, that while the US was "neutral" and a "non-
    combatant" our ships and planes were spotting Nazi subs and ships for
    the British, and we sank a couple of U-Boats, all well before Pearl
    Harbor but that usually doesn't make it to the discussion either.
    Bill C

  18. Michael Press said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted post said:

    The blame goes to the political and military leaders who were not
    prepared when the war they knew was coming arrived.

    Disagree here. USA picked a fight with Japan. USA found
    a dozen ways to deny raw materials to Japan, notwithstanding
    our gift of the sixth avenue el. USA put Japan in a corner
    they had to fight out of; not that Japan did not show
    willing. Everybody knew to some degree that Japan would
    attack. USA could read a great deal of Japanese code
    traffic beforehand. Radar, though new, detected the attack
    force. It suited the politicians to act surprised. Ever
    notice that with all the tonnage sunk at Pearl Harbor it
    was battleships, and not aircraft carriers? The carriers
    were well out of the way. Six months later at the battle
    of Midway the aircraft carriers Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, and
    Yorktown sank.

    Sounds to me like you think the World Trade Center was a government
    implosion too.

    Magilla

  19. Bill C said:
    Andrew Price said:

    On Mon, 26 May 2008 07:32:37 -0700 (PDT), Bill C

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > What did Jane Fonda do to be found guilty of treason?  Last time I
    > checked she had a First Amendment right to protest the war.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > If I were you I would go back and re-read the Constitution if you want
    > to know why she wasn't prosecuted for "treason."

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Thanks,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Magilla

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Providing material support in the way of propaganda. traveling to the
    enemy country and doing publicity for them, etc...Same stuff Tokyo
    Rose did.

    Quoted message said:

    I suspect that there was probably a lot more consensus in defining
    what constituted an "enemy country" during WWII than there was during
    the Vietnam war.

    I think N. Vietnam's status was pretty clear, as was manning a N.
    Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun.
     Bill C

    "Manning" is inflammatory, since as you know she
    was photographed with it, but wasn't firing it. But forget
    that. People talk about Jane Fonda as if she was some
    representative of the Kommie Left, but c'mon, she's
    an actress who later made exercise videos. She isn't,
    and never was, a figure like Dellinger, Hoffmann, or
    Hayden. Man up and say _they_ should have been
    tried for aid and comfort, etc.

    Anyway, I think there is an interesting Con Law question
    here. As you know, there was never a declaration of war
    during the Vietnam "War." Clearly, the US was fighting
    North Vietnam, but officially we were just aiding the
    South Vietnamese to defend themselves against their
    homegrown VC insurgency. Given that there was no
    official war, could Fonda actually have been tried for
    treason just for palling around with some country that
    we weren't officially at war with? In theory, people can
    be tried for treason in peacetime, but usually they are
    tried for something like espionage instead (the Walker
    family, the Rosenbergs). More recently, even John
    Walker Lindh was brought up on conspiracy-to-murder
    charges rather than treason.

    So yeah, I think there is a difference between Tokyo Rose
    and Hanoi Jane. However, if you want to give her the
    retroactive death penalty for aerobics, 80s hair and
    neon spandex, that seems completely justifiable and I'm
    sure 8 of 9 Supreme Court justices would agree. Excepting
    Souter, who has a thing for that sort of thing.

    Ben

  20. On May 27, 4:59 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    "Manning" is inflammatory, since as you know she
    was photographed with it, but wasn't firing it. But forget
    that. People talk about Jane Fonda as if she was some
    representative of the Kommie Left, but c'mon, she's
    an actress who later made exercise videos.

    Right. On the other hand, here's Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam:
    http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm

    Or if Saddam was such a great threat, let's execute Bush's father for
    not finishing him off in the Gulf War.
    -Paul

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