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Re: Medicine maims and kills......

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
16 October 2003
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17 October 2003
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Orac
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  1. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Dave said:

    Medication Danger!! by Cynthia Foster, MD

    http://www.startthehealing.com/warninglist.html#withdrawn

    Glowlife Dave, you have frequently claimed that your Ginseng and other
    herbs cannot cause harm and do not interact with medications. Here's
    what Dr. Foster herself (someone who is clearly an advocate of herbs)
    says on the matter:

    "The most common herb-drug interaction is that between the prescription
    blood thinning drug Warfarin (Coumadin) and herbs that thin the
    blood such as garlic, onion, red clover, and ginkgo biloba. Anyone
    who is taking Coumadin, Warfarin, Heparin, Lovanox, Plavix or other
    prescription blood-thinning herbs should not attempt to take herbs
    because the risk is too high for bleeding.

    "Because herbs can strongly affect physiology, the effect could be
    too strong if an herb that has a specific effect is taken with
    medications that also have the same effect. For example, one should not
    combine stimulating herbs (such as ma huang) with a stimulant medication
    (such as Ritalin). One shouldn't combine prescription sedatives
    with herbs that have sedative effects (valerian, passionflower,
    hops). One shouldn't combine hormone balancing herbs with prescription
    estrogen/progesterone medications such as birth control pills or
    hormone replacement therapy."

    Gee, Glowlife Dave, it sounds as though in quoting an altie that you
    think will help your case you've just shot down another of your frequent
    assertions.

    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    | inconvenience me with questions?"

  2. "Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Dave said:

    Medication Danger!! by Cynthia Foster, MD

    http://www.startthehealing.com/warninglist.html#withdrawn

    Glowlife Dave, you have frequently claimed that your Ginseng and other
    herbs cannot cause harm and do not interact with medications. Here's
    what Dr. Foster herself (someone who is clearly an advocate of herbs)
    says on the matter:

    "The most common herb-drug interaction is that between the prescription
    blood thinning drug Warfarin (Coumadin) and herbs that thin the
    blood such as garlic, onion, red clover, and ginkgo biloba. Anyone
    who is taking Coumadin, Warfarin, Heparin, Lovanox, Plavix or other
    prescription blood-thinning herbs should not attempt to take herbs
    because the risk is too high for bleeding.

    What I said about Warfarin was that my doctor eliminated it when I started
    taking ginseng. Here's Dr. Foster's reasoning as to why........

    Q:
    Dear Dr. Foster,
    My best friend's mother has broken out in scabs all over her body. She's
    taking blood thinners because of heart disease. Could this be a possible
    medication reaction? Also, are there any herbs that interact with blood
    thinners?

    A:
    Dear Worried,
    You have good reason to be worried, considering the quite severe side
    effects of this particularly dangerous medication. In my opinion, warfarin
    is one of the worst drugs to hit the market. Doctors are very familiar with
    its long list of adverse reactions and interactions with other medications.
    However, the most troubling aspect about this medication is that it does not
    combine well with herbs or even simple foods, either. This medication
    doesn't seem to combine well with ANYTHING. There are a number of things
    that your friend's mother could have consumed that may have reacted with
    this medication and caused either a bleeding episode or a clotting episode.

    Warfarin has what medical doctors call a "narrow therapeutic window." What
    this means in plain English is that if the dose is the slightest bit too
    high or the slightest bit too low, then the drug does not work. Only within
    a narrow dosage range does the medication work in the body. Because of this,
    doctors must monitor the blood levels of this medication on a regular basis
    to make sure that it is neither too high or too low. If the levels are too
    high, then the patient could have a serious bleeding episode that could lead
    to death. If the levels are too low, then the patient could have a clotting
    episode that leads to a stroke, heart attack, or the loss of fingers, toes
    or other extremities.

    (Taken from the Physician Desk Reference 2002)
    Prescription blood thinners may have many severe side effects: including

    Warfarin is contraindicated during pregnancy:
    The drug passes through the placenta between mother and fetus and can cause
    death to the fetus by hemorrhage. Furthermore, the drug has caused severe
    birth defects when used during pregnancy. These defects include brain
    malformations, mental retardation, blindness, and deformed eyes. Other rare
    abnormalities include spina bifida, cranial nerve palsy, hydrocephalus,
    cardiac defects, congenital heart disease, polydactyly [too many fingers or
    toes], deformities of toes, cleft palate, cleft lip, microcephaly and many
    birth defects.

    Warfarin interacts with MANY medications: (Get ready - this is long)
    This wide range of medications include simple medications such as
    antibiotics, sedatives, antidepressants, cancer chemo drugs, drugs for high
    cholesterol, antifungal medications, medications for ulcers and hiatal
    hernia, heart medications, antihistamines, estrogen-containing oral
    contraceptives, thyroid medications. Many of these medications are commonly
    used. Alcohol, aminoglutethimide, amobarbital, atorvastatin, azathioprine,
    butabarbital, butalbital, carbamazepine, chloral hydrate, chlordiazepoxide,
    chlorthalidone, cholestyramine, clozapine, corticotropin, cortisone,
    cyclophosphamide, dicloxacillin, ethchlorvynol, glutethimide, griseofulvin,
    haloperidol, meprobamate, 6-mercaptopurine, methimazole, moricizine
    hydrochloride, nafcillin, paraldehyde, pentobarbital, phenobarbital,
    phenytoin, prednisone, primidone, propylthiouracil, raloxifene, ranitidine,
    rifampin, secobarbital, spironolactone, sucralfate, and trazodone.

    Warfarin interacts with many herbs:
    including garlic, red clover, ginkgo biloba, ginger. Other herbs that
    warfarin could react with: alfalfa, agrimony, aloe gel, angelica (dong
    quai), aniseed, arnica, asa foetida, aspen, black cohosh, black haw, bladder
    wrack, bogbean, boldo, capsisum, cassia, celery, chamomile (German and
    Roman), clove, dandelion, fenugreek, feverfew, German sarsaparilla, ginseng
    (Panax), goldenseal, horse chestnut, horseradish, licorice, meadowsweet,
    mistletoe, nettle, onion, parsley, passion flower, pau d'arco, policosanol,
    poplar, prickly ash (Northern), quassia, red clover, senega, sweet clover,
    sweet woodruff, tamarind, tonka beans, wild carrot, wild lettuce, willow,
    wintergreen, and yarrow.

    Warfarin even interacts with many foods, beverages, and vitamins:
    including high dose vitamin C, alcoholic beverages, bromelain, onion,
    garlic, ginger, inositol nicotinate (a B vitamin), vitamin K, and foods high
    in vitamin K. Pharmacists have reported bleeding episodes in patients that
    resulted from something as simple as eating too much broccoli soup.

    Other blood thinners available also have severe side effects

    __________________________________________________

    I no longer take ANY blood thinners, eat ginseng and golf every day.

  3. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Dave said:

    "Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Dave said:

    Medication Danger!! by Cynthia Foster, MD

    http://www.startthehealing.com/warninglist.html#withdrawn

    Glowlife Dave, you have frequently claimed that your Ginseng and other
    herbs cannot cause harm and do not interact with medications. Here's
    what Dr. Foster herself (someone who is clearly an advocate of herbs)
    says on the matter:

    "The most common herb-drug interaction is that between the prescription
    blood thinning drug Warfarin (Coumadin) and herbs that thin the
    blood such as garlic, onion, red clover, and ginkgo biloba. Anyone
    who is taking Coumadin, Warfarin, Heparin, Lovanox, Plavix or other
    prescription blood-thinning herbs should not attempt to take herbs
    because the risk is too high for bleeding.

    What I said about Warfarin was that my doctor eliminated it when I started
    taking ginseng. Here's Dr. Foster's reasoning as to why........

    As usual, you've completely dodged the question. You have in the past
    claimed that, like other herbs, "Ginseng is food, not medicine" and
    that, as "food," it can't do any harm. Yet Dr. Foster, no "conventional
    medicine" advocate, has explicitly contradicted you and told how herbs
    CAN interact with medicines. How do you reconcile your previous
    statement with her assertion? She is by no means anti-alternative
    medicine, given that she's pushing herbs on her website (much as you
    push Ginseng on yours).

    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    | inconvenience me with questions?"

  4. "Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Dave said:

    "Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    "Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    > Medication Danger!! by Cynthia Foster, MD
    >
    > http://www.startthehealing.com/warninglist.html#withdrawn

    Glowlife Dave, you have frequently claimed that your Ginseng and other
    herbs cannot cause harm and do not interact with medications. Here's
    what Dr. Foster herself (someone who is clearly an advocate of herbs)
    says on the matter:

    "The most common herb-drug interaction is that between the


    prescription

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    blood thinning drug Warfarin (Coumadin) and herbs that thin the
    blood such as garlic, onion, red clover, and ginkgo biloba. Anyone
    who is taking Coumadin, Warfarin, Heparin, Lovanox, Plavix or other
    prescription blood-thinning herbs should not attempt to take herbs
    because the risk is too high for bleeding.

    What I said about Warfarin was that my doctor eliminated it when I


    started

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    taking ginseng. Here's Dr. Foster's reasoning as to why........

    As usual, you've completely dodged the question. You have in the past
    claimed that, like other herbs, "Ginseng is food, not medicine" and
    that, as "food," it can't do any harm. Yet Dr. Foster, no "conventional
    medicine" advocate, has explicitly contradicted you and told how herbs
    CAN interact with medicines. How do you reconcile your previous
    statement with her assertion? She is by no means anti-alternative
    medicine, given that she's pushing herbs on her website (much as you
    push Ginseng on yours).

    You keep coming to me with your little complaints and each time leave
    looking like the "fool". Then you insult me because of your impotence.
    I'm pleased that you have been so busy reading Dr. Foster's website,
    although
    your questions are almost always obviously silly, but I enjoy your company,
    so......it is necessary to have at least a cursory understanding of herbs
    and supplements. naturally occuring herbs and supplements don't interact
    with
    medications or food, because they are foods. You seem to think that the fact
    that
    Warfarin interacts with many other medications, many foods, vitamins and
    minerals into a case against ginseng. I posted the fact that NOBODY should
    take WARFARIN because it is a horribly dangerous drug that can be easily
    replaced by safer ways.

    Dr. Fostern says,

    You have good reason to be worried, considering the quite severe side
    effects of this particularly dangerous medication. In my opinion, warfarin
    is one of the worst drugs to hit the market. Doctors are very familiar with
    its long list of adverse reactions and interactions with other medications.
    However, the most troubling aspect about this medication is that it does not
    combine well with herbs or even simple foods, either. This medication
    doesn't seem to combine well with ANYTHING. There are a number of things
    that your friend's mother could have consumed that may have reacted with
    this medication and caused either a bleeding episode or a clotting episode.

  5. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Medicine maims and kills......
    From: "Dave" [email hidden]
    Date: 10/16/2003 7:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    it is necessary to have at least a cursory understanding of herbs
    and supplements. naturally occuring herbs and supplements don't interact

    Quoted message said:

    with
    medications or food, because they are foods.

    "naturally occurring herbs are FOOD?""

    and how then do you explain ginko,,st john's wort...digitalis?? which are ALL
    herbs...but surely not food by even your tinsy brain??

    plus the above plus lots of others DO react with other meds..but you say "they
    don't interact with medications or food because they are FOOD?""

    talking in huge circles Davey....back to MLM 101

    Quoted message said:

    I posted the fact that NOBODY should
    take WARFARIN because it is a horribly dangerous drug that can be easily
    replaced by safer ways.

    practicising medicine without a license??

    and your replacements are??? and don't say ginseng...as there is no efficient
    way to measure its effect on blood clotting,,,,,is there??

    Quoted message said:

    In my opinion, warfarin
    is one of the worst drugs to hit the market. Doctors are very familiar with
    its long list of adverse reactions a

    funny...but it is quite easy to manage dosage of Warfarin...that is if you have
    yet learned what INR means.....NOT

    hawki

  6. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Dave said:

    "Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Dave said:

    "Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    > In article <[email hidden]>,
    > "Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >
    > > Medication Danger!! by Cynthia Foster, MD
    > >
    > > http://www.startthehealing.com/warninglist.html#withdrawn
    >
    > Glowlife Dave, you have frequently claimed that your Ginseng and other
    > herbs cannot cause harm and do not interact with medications. Here's
    > what Dr. Foster herself (someone who is clearly an advocate of herbs)
    > says on the matter:
    >
    > "The most common herb-drug interaction is that between the


    prescription

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > blood thinning drug Warfarin (Coumadin) and herbs that thin the
    > blood such as garlic, onion, red clover, and ginkgo biloba. Anyone
    > who is taking Coumadin, Warfarin, Heparin, Lovanox, Plavix or other
    > prescription blood-thinning herbs should not attempt to take herbs
    > because the risk is too high for bleeding.

    What I said about Warfarin was that my doctor eliminated it when I


    started

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    taking ginseng. Here's Dr. Foster's reasoning as to why........

    As usual, you've completely dodged the question. You have in the past
    claimed that, like other herbs, "Ginseng is food, not medicine" and
    that, as "food," it can't do any harm. Yet Dr. Foster, no "conventional
    medicine" advocate, has explicitly contradicted you and told how herbs
    CAN interact with medicines. How do you reconcile your previous
    statement with her assertion? She is by no means anti-alternative
    medicine, given that she's pushing herbs on her website (much as you
    push Ginseng on yours).

    You keep coming to me with your little complaints and each time leave
    looking like the "fool".

    I'm not the one making the idiotic claim that herbs do not interact with
    medications.

    Quoted message said:

    Then you insult me because of your impotence.

    No, I do it because you beg for it, and never let it be said I'm not an
    accommodating kind of guy.

    Of course, I always know when my comments are getting to you. You start
    bringing out the ad hominem attacks, which you frequently do when you
    can't answer an argument.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm pleased that you have been so busy reading Dr. Foster's website,
    although
    your questions are almost always obviously silly, but I enjoy your company,
    so......it is necessary to have at least a cursory understanding of herbs
    and supplements. naturally occuring herbs and supplements don't interact
    with
    medications or food, because they are foods.

    [censored]. I strongly disagree with most of what is on her website (most
    of which borders on outright quackery), but she does have one redeeming
    quality, and that is that she at least acknowledges the potential for
    harm from interactions with herbs and medications or even herbs and
    other herbs. Just listen to your altie idol Dr. Foster, if you won't
    listen to me. She clearly doesn't share your view:

    "Because herbs can strongly affect physiology, the effect could be
    too strong if an herb that has a specific effect is taken with
    medications that also have the same effect. For example, one should not
    combine stimulating herbs (such as ma huang) with a stimulant medication
    (such as Ritalin). One shouldn't combine prescription sedatives
    with herbs that have sedative effects (valerian, passionflower,
    hops). One shouldn't combine hormone balancing herbs with prescription
    estrogen/progesterone medications such as birth control pills or
    hormone replacement therapy."

    "Natural substances such as charcoal, psyllium and slippery elm
    (contained in the Colon Detox Caps) can reduce absorption of medications
    as well as herbs, but only if taken in the same dose. One should allow
    1 hour before or after taking the Colon Detox Caps to take medications
    or other herbs."

    Quoted message said:

    You seem to think that the fact
    that
    Warfarin interacts with many other medications, many foods, vitamins and
    minerals into a case against ginseng.

    Straw man argument. Coumadin is a prominent example of such
    interactions, but it is by no means the only drug that herbs can
    interact with. Also, you also seem to be ignoring the fact that if
    coumadin interacts with medications, foods, and herbs, that means that,
    contrary to your claims, there IS an interaction between your herbs and
    conventional medications.

    Quoted message said:

    I posted the fact that NOBODY should
    take WARFARIN because it is a horribly dangerous drug that can be easily
    replaced by safer ways.

    Straw man argument. Once again, coumadin was only one example of drugs
    with which herbs can interact and cause harm. Nice try at making
    coumadin the focus of the discussion, but it isn't and never was.
    Interactions between herbs and medications is and was the focus, no
    matter how much you try to change it. Other examples have been given of
    herbs that interact with medications. For instance, Ginseng can interact
    with monoamine oxidase inhibitor drugs.

    [Snip]

    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    | inconvenience me with questions?"

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