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Re: Medicating Young Minds

Started by Markasurusi Probertasaurusi · · Last activity · 16 posts · 581 views

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
29 October 2003
Last activity
2 November 2003
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Markasurusi Probertasaurusi
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  1. "Peter Bowditch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (Jan) wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    I have to admit that the two suicides and one attempted suicide I have
    been closest to lately have not been teenagers. One was 25, one was
    22, one was 24.

    Peter, I fully understand. As a parent, one of the hardest things I ever had
    to do was to explain toone son, when he was 12, why his friend's sister (who
    was 14) killed herself by hanging herself inher parents garage. His friend
    was in the car when the parents opened the garage door and saw their
    daughter/sister hanging there, lifeless. We heard the screams from over a
    block away, and ran to see what we could do to help.

    These less than humans who are rabidly anti-medication make me sick. There
    are times that I almost wish that they would live with what you described,
    and what we saw. But, that would bring me down to their level, and I would
    not do that.

    Please repost this, for those who killfile me, and refuse to see what they
    are doing.

  2. Markasurusi Probertasaurusi said:


    "Peter Bowditch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (Jan) wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    I have to admit that the two suicides and one attempted suicide I have
    been closest to lately have not been teenagers. One was 25, one was
    22, one was 24.

    Peter, I fully understand. As a parent, one of the hardest things I ever had
    to do was to explain toone son, when he was 12, why his friend's sister (who
    was 14) killed herself by hanging herself inher parents garage. His friend
    was in the car when the parents opened the garage door and saw their
    daughter/sister hanging there, lifeless. We heard the screams from over a
    block away, and ran to see what we could do to help.

    These less than humans who are rabidly anti-medication make me sick. There
    are times that I almost wish that they would live with what you described,
    and what we saw. But, that would bring me down to their level, and I would
    not do that.

    Please repost this, for those who killfile me, and refuse to see what they
    are doing.

    Three aspects of "alternative" medicine really get me worked up - the
    charlatans who offer "guaranteed" cures for terminal diseases, the
    anti-vaccination liars, and those who want to impose suffering on
    people with psychiatric and psychological disorders (and their friends
    and relatives).

    The common thread is the way that human life is given a lower value
    than ideology.

    --
    Peter Bowditch
    The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
    The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
    and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 http://www.ratbags.com/loon
    To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

  3. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Medicating Young Minds
    From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
    Date: 10/29/2003 5:06 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    Markasurusi Probertasaurusi said:


    "Peter Bowditch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (Jan) wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    I have to admit that the two suicides and one attempted suicide I have
    been closest to lately have not been teenagers. One was 25, one was
    22, one was 24.

    Peter, I fully understand. As a parent, one of the hardest things I ever had
    to do was to explain toone son, when he was 12, why his friend's sister (who
    was 14) killed herself by hanging herself inher parents garage. His friend
    was in the car when the parents opened the garage door and saw their
    daughter/sister hanging there, lifeless. We heard the screams from over a
    block away, and ran to see what we could do to help.

    These less than humans who are rabidly anti-medication make me sick. There
    are times that I almost wish that they would live with what you described,
    and what we saw. But, that would bring me down to their level, and I would
    not do that.

    Please repost this, for those who killfile me, and refuse to see what they
    are doing.

    I rather doubt those who are doing the studies and have the concerns are
    reading this ng.

    That would include:

    *Mayo Clinic study*

    *Dr. Ronald Brown, professor of pediatrics at the Medical University of South
    Carolina.*

    *According to a study by Professor Julie Zito of the University of Maryland
    School of Pharmacy*

    *American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry *

    *Dr. David Fassler, professor of psychiatry at the University of Vermont.*

    *concern is growing about just what psychotropic drugs can do to still
    developing brains.*

    *Dr. Glen Elliott, director of the Langley Porter Psychiatric Institute's
    children's center at the University of California, San Francisco,*

    * Stephen Hinshaw, chairman of psychology at the University of California,
    Berkeley.*

    *The therapist teaches relaxation skills and positive thinking," says Denise
    Chavira, clinical psychologist at the University of California at San Diego. "*

    *Dr. Kiki Chang at Stanford University is trying to show that this is true with
    bipolar kids. He recently published a study in the Journal of Clinical
    Psychiatry*

    To determine if this kind of damage is being done,
    **investigators** have been turning more and more to brain scans such as
    magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). The results they're getting have been
    intriguing.

    *Attempting to answer that, Dr. F. Xavier Castellanos of the New York
    University Child Studies Center took other scans,*

    *Dr. Steven Pliszka, chief of child psychiatry at the University of Texas
    Health
    Center in San Antonio, went further.*

    *Castellanos and N.Y.U. colleague Rachel Klein are taking things further,
    calling back subjects who were enrolled in an ADHD-treatment study that began
    in 1970 to scan their now late-30s and early-40s brains for the long-term
    effects of drugs.*

    *Miami neurologist Sara Dorison.*

    *Part of the reason for all the hurry-up drugging, say psychiatrists,*

    *The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) doesn't require long-term studies that
    follow patients over decades. Its only requirement is
    toxicity trials that span six to eight weeks*

    *Dr. Thomas Laughren, a psychiatrist with the FDA's psychopharmacology
    division, "but it's better than what we had before, which was nothing." *

    Quoted message said:

    Three aspects of "alternative" medicine really get me worked up -

    This is NOT an aspect of alternative medicine.

    Inspite of the sad attempt to twist.

    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101031103-526331,00.html

    Medicating Young Minds
    Drugs have become increasingly popular for treating kids with mood and behavior
    problems. But how will that affect them in the long run?
    By JEFFREY KLUGER

    Sunday, Oct. 26, 2003
    Getting by is hard enough in middle school. it's harder still when you've got
    other things on your mind—and Andrea Okeson, 13, had plenty to distract her.
    There were the constant stomach pains to consider; there was the nervousness,
    the distractibility, the overwhelming need to be alone. And, of course, there
    was the business of repeatedly checking the locks on the doors. All these
    things grew, inexplicably, to consume Andrea, until by the time she was through
    with the eighth grade, she seemed pretty much through with everything else too.
    "Andrea," said a teacher to her one day, "you look like death."

    The problem, though neither Andrea nor her teacher knew it, was that her
    adolescent brain was being tossed by the neurochemical storms of generalized
    anxiety, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) and
    attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)—a decidedly lousy trifecta.
    If that was what eighth grade was, ninth was unimaginable.

    But that was then. Andrea, now 18, is a freshman at the College of St.
    Catherine in St. Paul, Minn., enjoying her friends and her studies and looking
    forward to a career in fashion merchandising, all thanks to a bit of chemical
    stabilizing provided by a pair of pills: Lexapro, an antidepressant, and
    Adderall, a relatively new anti-ADHD drug. "I feel excited about things,"
    Andrea says. "I feel like I got me back."

    So a little medicine fixed what ailed a child. Good news all around, right?
    Well, yes—and no. Lexapro is the perfect answer for anxiety all right,
    provided you're willing to overlook the fact that it does its work by
    artificially manipulating the very chemicals responsible for feeling and
    thought. Adderall is the perfect answer for ADHD, provided you overlook the
    fact that it's a stimulant like Dexedrine. Oh, yes, you also have to overlook
    the fact that the Adderall has left Andrea with such side effects as weight
    loss and sleeplessness, and both drugs are being poured into a young brain that
    has years to go before it's finally fully formed. Still, says Andrea, "I'm just
    glad there were things that could be done."

    Those things—whether Lexapro or Ritalin or Prozac or something else—are
    being done for more and more American children. In fact, they are being done
    with such frequency that some people have justifiably begun to ask, Are we
    raising Generation Rx?

    Just a few years ago, psychologists couldn't say with certainty that kids were
    even capable of suffering from depression the same way adults do. Now,
    according to PhRMA, a pharmaceutical trade group, up to 10% of all American
    kids may suffer from some mental illness. Perhaps twice that many have
    exhibited some symptoms of depression.

    Up to a million others may suffer from the alternately depressive and manic
    mood swings of bipolar disorder (BPD), one more condition that was thought
    until recently to be an affliction of adults alone. ADHD rates are exploding
    too. According to a Mayo Clinic study, children between 5 and 19 have at least
    a 7.5% chance of being found to have ADHD, which amounts to nearly 5 million
    kids. Other children are receiving diagnoses and medication for
    obsessive-compulsive disorder, social-anxiety disorder, post-traumatic stress
    disorder (PTSD), pathological impulsiveness, sleeplessness, phobias and more.

    Has the world—and American society in particular—simply become a more
    destabilizing place in which to raise children? Probably so. But other factors
    are at work, including sharp-eyed parents and doctors with a rising awareness
    of childhood mental illness and what can be done for it. "While we don't know
    exactly why the incidence of psychopathology is increasing in children and
    adolescents, it probably has to do with better diagnosis and detection," says
    Dr. Ronald Brown, professor of pediatrics at the Medical University of South
    Carolina.

    Also feeding the trend for more diagnoses is the arrival of whole new classes
    of psychotropic drugs with fewer side effects and greater efficacy than earlier
    medications, particularly the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIS),
    or antidepressants. These have been rolled out with highly visible,
    to-the-consumer ad campaigns. While an earlier generation of
    antidepressants—tricyclics like Tofranil—didn't work in kids, SSRIS do.
    According to a study by Professor Julie Zito of the University of Maryland
    School of Pharmacy, use of antidepressants among children and teens increased
    threefold between 1987 and 1996. And that use continues to climb. Nobody, not
    even the drug companies, argues that pills alone are the ideal answer to mental
    illness. Most experts believe that drugs are most effective when combined with
    talk therapy or other counseling. Nonetheless, the American Academy of Child
    and Adolescent Psychiatry now lists dozens of medications available for
    troubled kids, from the comparatively familiar Ritalin (for ADHD) to Zoloft and
    Celexa (for depression) to less familiar ones like Seroquel, Tegretol, Depakote
    (for bipolar disorder), and more are coming along all the time. There are
    stimulants, mood stabilizers, sleep medications, antidepressants,
    anticonvulsants, antipsychotics, antianxieties and narrowcast drugs to deal
    with impulsiveness and post-traumatic flashbacks. A few of the newest meds were
    developed or approved specifically for kids. The majority have been okayed for
    adults only, but are being used "off label" for younger and younger patients at
    children's menu doses. The practice is common and perfectly legal but
    potentially risky. "We know that kids are not just little adults," says Dr.
    David Fassler, professor of psychiatry at the University of Vermont. "They
    metabolize medications differently." Within the medical community—to say
    nothing of the families of the troubled kids—concern is growing about just
    what psychotropic drugs can do to still developing brains. Few people deny that
    mind pills help—ask the untold numbers who have climbed out of depressive
    pits or shaken off bipolar fits thanks to modern pharmacology. But few deny
    either that we're a quick-fix culture, and if you give us a feel-good answer to
    a complicated problem, we'll use it with little thought of long-term
    consequences. "The problem," warns Dr. Glen Elliott, director of the Langley
    Porter Psychiatric Institute's children's center at the University of
    California, San Francisco, "is that our usage has outstripped our knowledge
    base. Let's face it, we're experimenting on these kids without tracking the
    results." THE CASE FOR MEDICATION
    Those experiments, however, are often driven by dire need. When a child is
    suffering or suicidal, is it fair not to turn to the prescription pad in
    conjunction with therapy? Is it even safe? Untreated depression has a lifetime
    suicide rate of 15%—with still more deaths caused by related behaviors like
    self-medicating with alcohol and drugs. Kids with severe and untreated ADHD
    have been linked, according to some studies, to higher rates of substance
    abuse, dropping out of school and trouble with the law. Bipolar kids have a
    tendency to injure and kill themselves and others with uncontrolled behavior
    like brawling or reckless driving. They are

    Which is why Teresa Hatten of Fort Wayne, Ind., hesitated little when it came
    time to put her granddaughter Monica on medication. Hatten's grown daughter,
    Monica's mom, suffers from bipolar disorder, and so does Monica, 13. To give
    Monica a chance at a stable upbringing, Hatten took on the job of raising her,
    and one of the first things she had to do was get the violent mood swings of
    the bipolar disorder under control. It's been a long, tough slog. An initial
    drug combination of Ritalin and Prozac, prescribed when Monica was 6, simply
    collapsed her alternating depressed and manic moods into a single state with
    sad and wild features. By the time she was 8, her behavior was so unhinged, her
    school tried to expel her. Next Monica was switched to Zyprexa, an
    antipsychotic, that led to serious weight gain. "At 12 years old she had
    stretch marks," says Hatten. Now, a year later, Monica is taking a four-drug
    cocktail that includes Tegretol, an anticonvulsant, and Abilify, an
    antipsychotic. That, at last, seems to have solved the problem. "She's the best
    I've ever seen her," says Hatten. "She's smiling. Her moods are consistent. I'm
    cautiously optimistic." Monica agrees: "I'm in a better mood." Next up in the
    family's wellness campaign: Monica's 8-year-old cousin Jamari, who is on
    Zyprexa for a mood disorder. All along the disorder spectrum there are such
    pharmacological success stories. In the October issue of the Archives of
    General Psychiatry, Dr. Mark Olfson of the New York State Psychiatric Institute
    reports that every time the use of antidepressants jumps 1%, suicide rates
    among kids 10 to 19 decrease, although only slightly. But that doesn't include
    the nonsuicidal depressed kids whose misery is eased thanks to the same pills.
    ARE WE MEDDLING WITH NORMAL DEVELOPMENT?
    For children with less severe problems—children who are somber but not
    depressed, antsy but not clinically hyperactive, who rely on some repetitive
    behaviors for comfort but are not patently obsessive compulsive—the pros and
    cons of using drugs are far less obvious. "Unless there is careful assessment,
    we might start medicating normal variations (in behavior)," says Stephen
    Hinshaw, chairman of psychology at the University of California, Berkeley. The
    world would be a far less interesting place if all the eccentric kids were
    medicated toward some golden mean. Besides, there are just too many unanswered
    questions about giving mind drugs to kids to feel comfortable with ever
    broadening usage. What worries some doctors is that if you medicate a child's
    developing brain, you may be burning the village to save it. What does any kind
    of psychopharmacological meddling do, not just to brain chemistry but also to
    the acquisition of emotional skills—when, for example, antianxiety drugs are
    prescribed for a child who has not yet acquired the experience of managing
    stress without the meds? And what about side effects, from weight gain to
    jitteriness to flattened personality—all the things you don't want in the
    social crucible of grade school and, worse, high school. Adding to the worries
    is a growing body of knowledge showing just how incompletely formed a child's
    brain truly is. "We now know from imaging studies that frontal lobes, which are
    vital to executive functions like managing feelings and thought, don't fully
    mature until age 30," says Hinshaw. That's a lot of time for drugs to muck
    around with cerebral clay. For that reason, it may not always be worth pulling
    the pharmacological rip cord, particularly when symptoms are relatively mild.
    Child psychologists point out that often nonpharmaceutical treatments can
    reduce or eliminate the need for drugs. Anxiety disorders such as phobias can
    respond well to behavioral therapy—in which patients are gently exposed to
    graduated levels of the very things they fear until the brain habituates to the
    escalating risk. Depression too may respond to new, streamlined therapy
    techniques, especially cognitive therapy—a treatment aimed at helping
    patients reframe their view of the world so that setbacks and losses are put in
    less catastrophic perspective. "The therapist teaches relaxation skills and
    positive thinking," says Denise Chavira, clinical psychologist at the
    University of California at San Diego. "It goes beyond talk therapy."
    Unfortunately, medical insurance pays more readily for pills than these other
    treatments for adults and children.

    For kids with more serious symptoms, experts are worried that undermedicating
    is a bigger risk than overmedicating. "Say you've got a kid who's severely
    obsessive and literally can't leave the home because of the fears and rituals
    he's got to perform," says ucsf's Elliott. "Think about what anyone age 2 to
    age 16 has to learn to function in our society. Then think about losing two of
    those years to a disorder. Which two would you choose to lose?" Also on the
    side of intervention is the belief that treating more kids with mental illness
    could reduce its incidence in adults.

    Dr. Kiki Chang at Stanford University is trying to show that this is true with
    bipolar kids. He recently published a study in the Journal of Clinical
    Psychiatry that looked at kids from bipolar families who had only early signs
    of the disease. Pre-emptive doses of Depakote eased early symptoms in 78% of
    cases before the illness ever had a chance to take hold. "You can sit and watch
    it develop or intervene and possibly prevent the disorder," says Chang. While
    the researcher is excited about his results, he admits that treating kids who
    are not yet truly sick is controversial. "There's a chance some of the kids
    might not develop bipolar at all," says Chang. "We need to have more genetics,
    more brain imaging, more biological markers to know which direction the kids
    are going."

    HOW CAN WE MEASURE THE RESULT?
    Preventing symptoms, of course, is not everything. A sleeping child is
    completely asymptomatic, for example, but that's not the same as being fully
    functioning. If the drugs that extinguish symptoms also alter the still
    developing brain, the cure may come at too high a price, at least for kids who
    are only mildly symptomatic. To determine if this kind of damage is being done,
    investigators have been turning more and more to brain scans such as magnetic
    resonance imaging (MRI). The results they're getting have been intriguing.

    MRIs had already shown that the brain volumes of kids with ADHD are 3% smaller
    than those of unafflicted kids. That concerned researchers since nearly all
    those scans had been taken of children already being medicated for the
    disorder. Were the anatomical differences there to begin with, or were they
    caused by the drugs? Attempting to answer that, Dr. F. Xavier Castellanos of
    the New York University Child Studies Center took other scans, this time using
    only kids with ADHD and comparing those who were taking medication with those
    who were not. Reassuringly, he discovered that they all shared the same
    structural anomaly, a finding that seems to exonerate the drugs.

    Dr. Steven Pliszka, chief of child psychiatry at the University of Texas Health
    Center in San Antonio, went further. He conducted scans that picked up not just
    the structure but the activity of the brains of untreated ADHD children, and
    compared these images with those from children who had been medicated for a
    year or more. The treated group showed no signs of any deficits in brain
    function as measured in blood flow. In fact, he says, "we saw hints of
    improvement toward normal."

    The news was less positive when it came to bipolar disorder. Chang has looked
    at the brains of kids treated with Depakote, and while his study is as yet
    unpublished, he says he noticed some anatomical differences that could result
    from treatment—and he wasn't necessarily happy with them. "We are seeing that
    medications do affect the brain acutely," he says. "Is that a good thing, a bad
    thing? We just don't know."

    What nobody denies is that more research is needed to resolve all these
    questions—and that it won't be easy to get it started. The first problem is
    one of time. It was only in the early 1990s that the antidepressant Prozac
    exploded into pharmacies. It's hard to do a lifetime of longitudinal studies on
    a drug that's been widely used for just over a decade. And each time the
    industry invents a new medication, the clock rewinds to zero for that
    particular pill.

    Even if it were possible to conduct extended studies, getting volunteers for
    the work is difficult. The attrition rate is high in any years-long research,
    especially so when the subjects are kids, who bore easily and, at any rate,
    eventually go away to college. On average, 40% of children will drop out of a
    long-term study before the work is done. And that assumes their parents will
    even sign them up in the first place. Some brain scans involve at least a
    little bit of radiation—something most parents are reluctant to expose their
    children to, particularly if those kids have no emotional disorders and are
    simply being used as a baseline to establish the look of a healthy brain.
    Getting good scans from kids who have diagnosable conditions isn't easy, as any
    radiologist who has ever tried to conduct a lengthy MRI on a child with ADHD
    can attest. "Holding still is not exactly what they do well," says Elliott.

    Ethical questions hamstring research too. Any gold-standard study requires that
    some of the kids who are suffering from a disorder receive no drugs so that
    they can be compared with the kids who do. But if you believe the medications
    are helpful, how can you withhold them from a group of symptomatic children who
    need them? Despite such obstacles, research is moving ahead, if haltingly. The
    National Institute of Mental Health is conducting a study called the Preschool
    ADHD Treatment Study, in which researchers will track ADHD kids between 3 and 8
    years old to determine the benefits and side effects of stimulant medications.
    Castellanos and N.Y.U. colleague Rachel Klein are taking things further,
    calling back subjects who were enrolled in an ADHD-treatment study that began
    in 1970 to scan their now late-30s and early-40s brains for the long-term
    effects of drugs. Castellanos is also planning a study of young rats treated
    with varying amounts of psychotropic drugs, conducting dosing and anatomical
    studies that cannot be performed on humans.

    C O V E R

    THE RISK OF HASTY PRESCRIPTIONS
    Just as important as getting the research rolling is fixing the health-care
    system kids rely on to get well. Like adults taking mind meds, children often
    get their drugs not from a specialist in psychiatry and psychopharmacology but
    from any M.D. with the power of the prescription pad. Usually this means the
    pediatrician or family doctor, who isn't likely to have the time or training
    necessary for the extensive evaluations needed before drugs can be properly
    prescribed—much less the required follow-up visits. "There's no way you can
    screen for side effects in a 10-year-old in five minutes," says Miami
    neurologist Sara Dorison. "You have to chat about their summer, their friends."

    Part of the reason for all the hurry-up drugging, say psychiatrists, is managed
    care, which, already disinclined to pay for longer, more costly talk therapy,
    is equally reluctant to foot the bill to make sure patients on pills are well
    monitored. In a perfect—or at least better—world, says Elliott, parents
    considering meds for their kids would have access not to one specialist but
    three: a pediatrician, a behavioral pediatrician and a child-adolescent
    psychiatrist. "Insurance companies talk about second opinions," he says, "but
    they don't actually like them."

    The pharmaceutical companies could be doing better too—and if they don't, the
    government must push them to do it. There is a lot of money to be made in
    developing the next Prozac, but there is less profit if you test it for longer
    than the law demands. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) doesn't require
    long-term studies that follow patients over decades. Its only requirement is
    toxicity trials that span six to eight weeks. In an effort to entice companies
    to conduct lengthier studies, the agency now grants an extension of six months
    of exclusive marketing rights to any company engaging in studies of a drug's
    effects on a minimum of 100 children for more than six months. "It's a
    relatively small amount of data," acknowledges Dr. Thomas Laughren, a
    psychiatrist with the FDA's psychopharmacology division, "but it's better than
    what we had before, which was nothing."

    Until all these things happen, the heaviest lifting will, as always, be left to
    the family. Perhaps the most powerful medicine a suffering child needs is the
    educated instincts of a well-informed parent—one who has taken the time to
    study up on all the pharmaceutical and nonpharmaceutical options and pick the
    right ones. There will always be dangers associated with taking too many
    drugs—and also dangers from taking too few. "Like every other choice you make
    for your kids," says Chang, "you make right ones and wrong ones." When the
    health of a child's mind is on the line, getting it wrong is something that no
    parent wants.

  4. "Markasurusi Probertasaurusi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Peter Bowditch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (Jan) wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    I have to admit that the two suicides and one attempted suicide I have
    been closest to lately have not been teenagers. One was 25, one was
    22, one was 24.

    Peter, I fully understand. As a parent, one of the hardest things I ever had
    to do was to explain toone son, when he was 12, why his friend's sister (who
    was 14) killed herself by hanging herself inher parents garage. His friend
    was in the car when the parents opened the garage door and saw their
    daughter/sister hanging there, lifeless. We heard the screams from over a
    block away, and ran to see what we could do to help.

    These less than humans who are rabidly anti-medication make me sick. There
    are times that I almost wish that they would live with what you described,
    and what we saw. But, that would bring me down to their level, and I would
    not do that.

    Please repost this, for those who killfile me, and refuse to see what they
    are doing.

    The only time I have prescribed an antidepressant (Effexor) for an
    adolescent came recently. This 17 year old boy came from a long
    family history of people with mood disorders. His story, shortened
    here, was that he was experiencing anhedonia, depressed mood, etc. I
    did a full medical evaluation to exclude medical causes, and when that
    came up clean, I prescribed an SSRI...

    ....His Mom called me 2 weeks later to say that she had never seen such
    a change in a person before. He was happy, engaged in class, pleasant
    to be with...he was a changed young man.

    Is this "unnecessarily medicating" a youngster?

    Mark, MD

    P.S. Jan's a moron. Not only does she shoot from the hip, she is
    mean and narrow-minded. She posts dangerous drivel and has no idea
    what damage she can cause when she attempts to discourage people from
    accessing the help they (or their children) may really need.

  5. Quoted message said:

    From: [email hidden] (Mark)
    Date: 10/29/2003 9:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    P.S. Jan's a moron. Not only does she shoot from the hip, she is
    mean and narrow-minded. She posts dangerous drivel and has no idea
    what damage she can cause when she attempts to discourage people from
    accessing the help they (or their children) may really need.

    Umm. Adding more lies to your already lying record. None of the above is true.

    What you call dangerous drivel came from:

    *Mayo Clinic study*

    *Dr. Ronald Brown, professor of pediatrics at the Medical University of South
    Carolina.*

    *According to a study by Professor Julie Zito of the University of Maryland
    School of Pharmacy*

    *American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry *

    *Dr. David Fassler, professor of psychiatry at the University of Vermont.*

    *concern is growing about just what psychotropic drugs can do to still
    developing brains.*

    *Dr. Glen Elliott, director of the Langley Porter Psychiatric Institute's
    children's center at the University of California, San Francisco,*

    * Stephen Hinshaw, chairman of psychology at the University of California,
    Berkeley.*

    *The therapist teaches relaxation skills and positive thinking," says Denise
    Chavira, clinical psychologist at the University of California at San Diego. "*

    *Dr. Kiki Chang at Stanford University is trying to show that this is true with
    bipolar kids. He recently published a study in the Journal of Clinical
    Psychiatry*

    To determine if this kind of damage is being done,
    **investigators** have been turning more and more to brain scans such as
    magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). The results they're getting have been
    intriguing.

    *Attempting to answer that, Dr. F. Xavier Castellanos of the New York
    University Child Studies Center took other scans,*

    *Dr. Steven Pliszka, chief of child psychiatry at the University of Texas
    Health
    Center in San Antonio, went further.*

    *Castellanos and N.Y.U. colleague Rachel Klein are taking things further,
    calling back subjects who were enrolled in an ADHD-treatment study that began
    in 1970 to scan their now late-30s and early-40s brains for the long-term
    effects of drugs.*

    *Miami neurologist Sara Dorison.*

    *Part of the reason for all the hurry-up drugging, say psychiatrists,*

    *The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) doesn't require long-term studies that
    follow patients over decades. Its only requirement is
    toxicity trials that span six to eight weeks*

    *Dr. Thomas Laughren, a psychiatrist with the FDA's psychopharmacology
    division, "but it's better than what we had before, which was nothing." *

    Jan

  6. "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Medicating Young Minds
    From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
    Date: 10/29/2003 5:06 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    Markasurusi Probertasaurusi said:


    "Peter Bowditch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    > [email hidden] (Jan) wrote:

    > I have to admit that the two suicides and one attempted suicide I have
    > been closest to lately have not been teenagers. One was 25, one was
    > 22, one was 24.

    Peter, I fully understand. As a parent, one of the hardest things I ever


    had

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to do was to explain toone son, when he was 12, why his friend's sister


    (who

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    was 14) killed herself by hanging herself inher parents garage. His


    friend

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    was in the car when the parents opened the garage door and saw their
    daughter/sister hanging there, lifeless. We heard the screams from over


    a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    block away, and ran to see what we could do to help.

    These less than humans who are rabidly anti-medication make me sick.


    There

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    are times that I almost wish that they would live with what you


    described,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and what we saw. But, that would bring me down to their level, and I


    would

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    not do that.

    Please repost this, for those who killfile me, and refuse to see what


    they

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    are doing.

    I rather doubt those who are doing the studies and have the concerns are
    reading this ng.

    Having valid medical concerns is one thing, being rabidly anti-treatment is
    a different thing.

    You are rabidly anti-treatment.
    Snip

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Three aspects of "alternative" medicine really get me worked up -

    This is NOT an aspect of alternative medicine.

    Yes, it is. Alties are rabidly anti-real treatment. You are.

    And, I know you are rabidly anti-treamtnet as you repeatedly post and
    re-post negative stories about treatment, and NEVR have said one positive
    word about treatment.

    Prove me wrong. Jan, with your own words.

  7. "Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Markasurusi Probertasaurusi" <[email hidden]> wrote in


    message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Peter Bowditch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (Jan) wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    I have to admit that the two suicides and one attempted suicide I have
    been closest to lately have not been teenagers. One was 25, one was
    22, one was 24.

    Peter, I fully understand. As a parent, one of the hardest things I ever


    had

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to do was to explain toone son, when he was 12, why his friend's sister


    (who

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    was 14) killed herself by hanging herself inher parents garage. His


    friend

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    was in the car when the parents opened the garage door and saw their
    daughter/sister hanging there, lifeless. We heard the screams from over


    a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    block away, and ran to see what we could do to help.

    These less than humans who are rabidly anti-medication make me sick.


    There

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    are times that I almost wish that they would live with what you


    described,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and what we saw. But, that would bring me down to their level, and I


    would

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    not do that.

    Please repost this, for those who killfile me, and refuse to see what


    they

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    are doing.

    The only time I have prescribed an antidepressant (Effexor) for an
    adolescent came recently. This 17 year old boy came from a long
    family history of people with mood disorders. His story, shortened
    here, was that he was experiencing anhedonia, depressed mood, etc. I
    did a full medical evaluation to exclude medical causes, and when that
    came up clean, I prescribed an SSRI...

    ...His Mom called me 2 weeks later to say that she had never seen such
    a change in a person before. He was happy, engaged in class, pleasant
    to be with...he was a changed young man.

    Is this "unnecessarily medicating" a youngster?

    Only to those who hate kids enough to be rabidly anti-treatment.

    Quoted message said:

    Mark, MD

    P.S. Jan's a moron. Not only does she shoot from the hip, she is
    mean and narrow-minded. She posts dangerous drivel and has no idea
    what damage she can cause when she attempts to discourage people from
    accessing the help they (or their children) may really need.

    Agreed.

  8. x-no-archive: yes

    Markasurusi Probertasaurusi said:

    Peter, I fully understand. As a parent, one of the hardest things I ever had
    to do was to explain toone son, when he was 12, why his friend's sister (who
    was 14) killed herself by hanging herself inher parents garage. His friend
    was in the car when the parents opened the garage door and saw their
    daughter/sister hanging there, lifeless. We heard the screams from over a
    block away, and ran to see what we could do to help.

    Quoted message said:

    These less than humans who are rabidly anti-medication make me sick.

    Those less than humans who are rabidly pro-drugs makes me
    sick. They make a LOT of people sick. And, unfortunately - it causes
    a wake of corpses in the process.

    Quoted message said:

    There
    are times that I almost wish that they would live with what you described,
    and what we saw. But, that would bring me down to their level, and I would
    not do that.

    You can't go down to anyone's level, because you're already
    the lowest of lows. You have to look way up in order to see the curb.

    Quoted message said:

    Please repost this, for those who killfile me, and refuse to see what they
    are doing.

    Given that you change your screen name, oh....every 6 seconds
    in order to slip past people's killfilters, I don't think that a
    repost is in order.

    Since you're such a big fan of drugs, why don't you lead by
    setting an example...and go back on your anti-psychotic meds?

    Thanks, and have a super day!

    Atlas
    --
    "I don't do drugs, I am drugs" - Salvador Dali

  9. "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Umm. Adding more lies to your already lying record. None of the above is


    true.

    Quoted message said:


    Jan

    $ KaChing $26

  10. On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:28:07 -0600, Atlas <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    x-no-archive: yes

    Markasurusi Probertasaurusi said:

    Peter, I fully understand. As a parent, one of the hardest things I ever had
    to do was to explain toone son, when he was 12, why his friend's sister (who
    was 14) killed herself by hanging herself inher parents garage. His friend
    was in the car when the parents opened the garage door and saw their
    daughter/sister hanging there, lifeless. We heard the screams from over a
    block away, and ran to see what we could do to help.

    Quoted message said:

    These less than humans who are rabidly anti-medication make me sick.

    Those less than humans who are rabidly pro-drugs makes me
    sick. They make a LOT of people sick. And, unfortunately - it causes
    a wake of corpses in the process.

    It is typical for a chiropractor to spread this kind of propaganda.
    While it is certainly true that medications have caused deaths, it is
    ALSO true that medications have saved peoples lives.

    I wonder what choice Atlas would make if he was diagnosed with insulin
    dependent diabetes, leukemia, Hodgkins Disease, hyperthyroidism, etc.
    It is easy for those who have a vendetta against conventional medicine
    to try to demonize it. But you can be sure if Atlas needed medication
    to help some health problem that he would be the first to take it.
    Just like Jan Drew who rails against medication and yet has been
    taking Elavil and Neurontin for over four years.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    There
    are times that I almost wish that they would live with what you described,
    and what we saw. But, that would bring me down to their level, and I would
    not do that.

    You can't go down to anyone's level, because you're already
    the lowest of lows. You have to look way up in order to see the curb.

    Imagine that the person who posted the above considers himself a
    health professional. Another data point to support the assertion that
    chiropractic colleges are not very selective in their admissions. I am
    sure that chiropractors all over the world are proud to have the likes
    of Atlas representing their profession:-)))

    <snip further childish insults>

    Aloha,

    Rich

    PS: If Atlas responds to this post it is very likely there will be
    more childish responses. Oh, that is right. Atlas has me in his kill
    file.
    ------------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------------

    The best defense to logic is ignorance.

  11. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Medicating Young Minds
    From: Atlas [email hidden]
    Date: 10/30/2003 7:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    x-no-archive: yes

    Markasurusi Probertasaurusi said:

    Peter, I fully understand. As a parent, one of the hardest things I ever had
    to do was to explain toone son, when he was 12, why his friend's sister (who
    was 14) killed herself by hanging herself inher parents garage. His friend
    was in the car when the parents opened the garage door and saw their
    daughter/sister hanging there, lifeless. We heard the screams from over a
    block away, and ran to see what we could do to help.

    Quoted message said:

    These less than humans who are rabidly anti-medication make me sick.

    Those less than humans who are rabidly pro-drugs makes me
    sick. They make a LOT of people sick. And, unfortunately - it causes
    a wake of corpses in the process.

    Quoted message said:

    There
    are times that I almost wish that they would live with what you described,
    and what we saw. But, that would bring me down to their level, and I would
    not do that.

    You can't go down to anyone's level, because you're already
    the lowest of lows. You have to look way up in order to see the curb.

    Quoted message said:

    Please repost this, for those who killfile me, and refuse to see what they
    are doing.

    Given that you change your screen name, oh....every 6 seconds
    in order to slip past people's killfilters, I don't think that a
    repost is in order.

    Since you're such a big fan of drugs, why don't you lead by
    setting an example...and go back on your anti-psychotic meds?

    Thanks, and have a super day!

    Atlas
    --
    "I don't do drugs, I am drugs" - Salvador Dali

    As usual, this thread got twisted.

    Rather than be concerned about medicating young minds, the debunkers all have
    anecdotes of how wonderful these drugs are. They say anecdotes don't count, but
    they all seem to have one.

    Double standards again.

    They also tried to turn this thread into an alternative medicine thing.

    Plus a personal trashing contest.

    Their efforts are dishonest.

    Jan

    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101031103-526331,00.html

    Medicating Young Minds
    Drugs have become increasingly popular for treating kids with mood and behavior
    problems. But how will that affect them in the long run?
    By JEFFREY KLUGER

    Sunday, Oct. 26, 2003
    Getting by is hard enough in middle school. it's harder still when you've got
    other things on your mind—and Andrea Okeson, 13, had plenty to distract her.
    There were the constant stomach pains to consider; there was the nervousness,
    the distractibility, the overwhelming need to be alone. And, of course, there
    was the business of repeatedly checking the locks on the doors. All these
    things grew, inexplicably, to consume Andrea, until by the time she was through
    with the eighth grade, she seemed pretty much through with everything else too.
    "Andrea," said a teacher to her one day, "you look like death."

    The problem, though neither Andrea nor her teacher knew it, was that her
    adolescent brain was being tossed by the neurochemical storms of generalized
    anxiety, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) and
    attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)—a decidedly lousy trifecta.
    If that was what eighth grade was, ninth was unimaginable.

    But that was then. Andrea, now 18, is a freshman at the College of St.
    Catherine in St. Paul, Minn., enjoying her friends and her studies and looking
    forward to a career in fashion merchandising, all thanks to a bit of chemical
    stabilizing provided by a pair of pills: Lexapro, an antidepressant, and
    Adderall, a relatively new anti-ADHD drug. "I feel excited about things,"
    Andrea says. "I feel like I got me back."

    So a little medicine fixed what ailed a child. Good news all around, right?
    Well, yes—and no. Lexapro is the perfect answer for anxiety all right,
    provided you're willing to overlook the fact that it does its work by
    artificially manipulating the very chemicals responsible for feeling and
    thought. Adderall is the perfect answer for ADHD, provided you overlook the
    fact that it's a stimulant like Dexedrine. Oh, yes, you also have to overlook
    the fact that the Adderall has left Andrea with such side effects as weight
    loss and sleeplessness, and both drugs are being poured into a young brain that
    has years to go before it's finally fully formed. Still, says Andrea, "I'm just
    glad there were things that could be done."

    Those things—whether Lexapro or Ritalin or Prozac or something else—are
    being done for more and more American children. In fact, they are being done
    with such frequency that some people have justifiably begun to ask, Are we
    raising Generation Rx?

    Just a few years ago, psychologists couldn't say with certainty that kids were
    even capable of suffering from depression the same way adults do. Now,
    according to PhRMA, a pharmaceutical trade group, up to 10% of all American
    kids may suffer from some mental illness. Perhaps twice that many have
    exhibited some symptoms of depression.

    Up to a million others may suffer from the alternately depressive and manic
    mood swings of bipolar disorder (BPD), one more condition that was thought
    until recently to be an affliction of adults alone. ADHD rates are exploding
    too. According to a Mayo Clinic study, children between 5 and 19 have at least
    a 7.5% chance of being found to have ADHD, which amounts to nearly 5 million
    kids. Other children are receiving diagnoses and medication for
    obsessive-compulsive disorder, social-anxiety disorder, post-traumatic stress
    disorder (PTSD), pathological impulsiveness, sleeplessness, phobias and more.

    Has the world—and American society in particular—simply become a more
    destabilizing place in which to raise children? Probably so. But other factors
    are at work, including sharp-eyed parents and doctors with a rising awareness
    of childhood mental illness and what can be done for it. "While we don't know
    exactly why the incidence of psychopathology is increasing in children and
    adolescents, it probably has to do with better diagnosis and detection," says
    Dr. Ronald Brown, professor of pediatrics at the Medical University of South
    Carolina.

    Also feeding the trend for more diagnoses is the arrival of whole new classes
    of psychotropic drugs with fewer side effects and greater efficacy than earlier
    medications, particularly the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIS),
    or antidepressants. These have been rolled out with highly visible,
    to-the-consumer ad campaigns. While an earlier generation of
    antidepressants—tricyclics like Tofranil—didn't work in kids, SSRIS do.
    According to a study by Professor Julie Zito of the University of Maryland
    School of Pharmacy, use of antidepressants among children and teens increased
    threefold between 1987 and 1996. And that use continues to climb. Nobody, not
    even the drug companies, argues that pills alone are the ideal answer to mental
    illness. Most experts believe that drugs are most effective when combined with
    talk therapy or other counseling. Nonetheless, the American Academy of Child
    and Adolescent Psychiatry now lists dozens of medications available for
    troubled kids, from the comparatively familiar Ritalin (for ADHD) to Zoloft and
    Celexa (for depression) to less familiar ones like Seroquel, Tegretol, Depakote
    (for bipolar disorder), and more are coming along all the time. There are
    stimulants, mood stabilizers, sleep medications, antidepressants,
    anticonvulsants, antipsychotics, antianxieties and narrowcast drugs to deal
    with impulsiveness and post-traumatic flashbacks. A few of the newest meds were
    developed or approved specifically for kids. The majority have been okayed for
    adults only, but are being used "off label" for younger and younger patients at
    children's menu doses. The practice is common and perfectly legal but
    potentially risky. "We know that kids are not just little adults," says Dr.
    David Fassler, professor of psychiatry at the University of Vermont. "They
    metabolize medications differently." Within the medical community—to say
    nothing of the families of the troubled kids—concern is growing about just
    what psychotropic drugs can do to still developing brains. Few people deny that
    mind pills help—ask the untold numbers who have climbed out of depressive
    pits or shaken off bipolar fits thanks to modern pharmacology. But few deny
    either that we're a quick-fix culture, and if you give us a feel-good answer to
    a complicated problem, we'll use it with little thought of long-term
    consequences. "The problem," warns Dr. Glen Elliott, director of the Langley
    Porter Psychiatric Institute's children's center at the University of
    California, San Francisco, "is that our usage has outstripped our knowledge
    base. Let's face it, we're experimenting on these kids without tracking the
    results." THE CASE FOR MEDICATION
    Those experiments, however, are often driven by dire need. When a child is
    suffering or suicidal, is it fair not to turn to the prescription pad in
    conjunction with therapy? Is it even safe? Untreated depression has a lifetime
    suicide rate of 15%—with still more deaths caused by related behaviors like
    self-medicating with alcohol and drugs. Kids with severe and untreated ADHD
    have been linked, according to some studies, to higher rates of substance
    abuse, dropping out of school and trouble with the law. Bipolar kids have a
    tendency to injure and kill themselves and others with uncontrolled behavior
    like brawling or reckless driving. They are

    Which is why Teresa Hatten of Fort Wayne, Ind., hesitated little when it came
    time to put her granddaughter Monica on medication. Hatten's grown daughter,
    Monica's mom, suffers from bipolar disorder, and so does Monica, 13. To give
    Monica a chance at a stable upbringing, Hatten took on the job of raising her,
    and one of the first things she had to do was get the violent mood swings of
    the bipolar disorder under control. It's been a long, tough slog. An initial
    drug combination of Ritalin and Prozac, prescribed when Monica was 6, simply
    collapsed her alternating depressed and manic moods into a single state with
    sad and wild features. By the time she was 8, her behavior was so unhinged, her
    school tried to expel her. Next Monica was switched to Zyprexa, an
    antipsychotic, that led to serious weight gain. "At 12 years old she had
    stretch marks," says Hatten. Now, a year later, Monica is taking a four-drug
    cocktail that includes Tegretol, an anticonvulsant, and Abilify, an
    antipsychotic. That, at last, seems to have solved the problem. "She's the best
    I've ever seen her," says Hatten. "She's smiling. Her moods are consistent. I'm
    cautiously optimistic." Monica agrees: "I'm in a better mood." Next up in the
    family's wellness campaign: Monica's 8-year-old cousin Jamari, who is on
    Zyprexa for a mood disorder. All along the disorder spectrum there are such
    pharmacological success stories. In the October issue of the Archives of
    General Psychiatry, Dr. Mark Olfson of the New York State Psychiatric Institute
    reports that every time the use of antidepressants jumps 1%, suicide rates
    among kids 10 to 19 decrease, although only slightly. But that doesn't include
    the nonsuicidal depressed kids whose misery is eased thanks to the same pills.
    ARE WE MEDDLING WITH NORMAL DEVELOPMENT?
    For children with less severe problems—children who are somber but not
    depressed, antsy but not clinically hyperactive, who rely on some repetitive
    behaviors for comfort but are not patently obsessive compulsive—the pros and
    cons of using drugs are far less obvious. "Unless there is careful assessment,
    we might start medicating normal variations (in behavior)," says Stephen
    Hinshaw, chairman of psychology at the University of California, Berkeley. The
    world would be a far less interesting place if all the eccentric kids were
    medicated toward some golden mean. Besides, there are just too many unanswered
    questions about giving mind drugs to kids to feel comfortable with ever
    broadening usage. What worries some doctors is that if you medicate a child's
    developing brain, you may be burning the village to save it. What does any kind
    of psychopharmacological meddling do, not just to brain chemistry but also to
    the acquisition of emotional skills—when, for example, antianxiety drugs are
    prescribed for a child who has not yet acquired the experience of managing
    stress without the meds? And what about side effects, from weight gain to
    jitteriness to flattened personality—all the things you don't want in the
    social crucible of grade school and, worse, high school. Adding to the worries
    is a growing body of knowledge showing just how incompletely formed a child's
    brain truly is. "We now know from imaging studies that frontal lobes, which are
    vital to executive functions like managing feelings and thought, don't fully
    mature until age 30," says Hinshaw. That's a lot of time for drugs to muck
    around with cerebral clay. For that reason, it may not always be worth pulling
    the pharmacological rip cord, particularly when symptoms are relatively mild.
    Child psychologists point out that often nonpharmaceutical treatments can
    reduce or eliminate the need for drugs. Anxiety disorders such as phobias can
    respond well to behavioral therapy—in which patients are gently exposed to
    graduated levels of the very things they fear until the brain habituates to the
    escalating risk. Depression too may respond to new, streamlined therapy
    techniques, especially cognitive therapy—a treatment aimed at helping
    patients reframe their view of the world so that setbacks and losses are put in
    less catastrophic perspective. "The therapist teaches relaxation skills and
    positive thinking," says Denise Chavira, clinical psychologist at the
    University of California at San Diego. "It goes beyond talk therapy."
    Unfortunately, medical insurance pays more readily for pills than these other
    treatments for adults and children.

    For kids with more serious symptoms, experts are worried that undermedicating
    is a bigger risk than overmedicating. "Say you've got a kid who's severely
    obsessive and literally can't leave the home because of the fears and rituals
    he's got to perform," says ucsf's Elliott. "Think about what anyone age 2 to
    age 16 has to learn to function in our society. Then think about losing two of
    those years to a disorder. Which two would you choose to lose?" Also on the
    side of intervention is the belief that treating more kids with mental illness
    could reduce its incidence in adults.

    Dr. Kiki Chang at Stanford University is trying to show that this is true with
    bipolar kids. He recently published a study in the Journal of Clinical
    Psychiatry that looked at kids from bipolar families who had only early signs
    of the disease. Pre-emptive doses of Depakote eased early symptoms in 78% of
    cases before the illness ever had a chance to take hold. "You can sit and watch
    it develop or intervene and possibly prevent the disorder," says Chang. While
    the researcher is excited about his results, he admits that treating kids who
    are not yet truly sick is controversial. "There's a chance some of the kids
    might not develop bipolar at all," says Chang. "We need to have more genetics,
    more brain imaging, more biological markers to know which direction the kids
    are going."

    HOW CAN WE MEASURE THE RESULT?
    Preventing symptoms, of course, is not everything. A sleeping child is
    completely asymptomatic, for example, but that's not the same as being fully
    functioning. If the drugs that extinguish symptoms also alter the still
    developing brain, the cure may come at too high a price, at least for kids who
    are only mildly symptomatic. To determine if this kind of damage is being done,
    investigators have been turning more and more to brain scans such as magnetic
    resonance imaging (MRI). The results they're getting have been intriguing.

    MRIs had already shown that the brain volumes of kids with ADHD are 3% smaller
    than those of unafflicted kids. That concerned researchers since nearly all
    those scans had been taken of children already being medicated for the
    disorder. Were the anatomical differences there to begin with, or were they
    caused by the drugs? Attempting to answer that, Dr. F. Xavier Castellanos of
    the New York University Child Studies Center took other scans, this time using
    only kids with ADHD and comparing those who were taking medication with those
    who were not. Reassuringly, he discovered that they all shared the same
    structural anomaly, a finding that seems to exonerate the drugs.

    Dr. Steven Pliszka, chief of child psychiatry at the University of Texas Health
    Center in San Antonio, went further. He conducted scans that picked up not just
    the structure but the activity of the brains of untreated ADHD children, and
    compared these images with those from children who had been medicated for a
    year or more. The treated group showed no signs of any deficits in brain
    function as measured in blood flow. In fact, he says, "we saw hints of
    improvement toward normal."

    The news was less positive when it came to bipolar disorder. Chang has looked
    at the brains of kids treated with Depakote, and while his study is as yet
    unpublished, he says he noticed some anatomical differences that could result
    from treatment—and he wasn't necessarily happy with them. "We are seeing that
    medications do affect the brain acutely," he says. "Is that a good thing, a bad
    thing? We just don't know."

    What nobody denies is that more research is needed to resolve all these
    questions—and that it won't be easy to get it started. The first problem is
    one of time. It was only in the early 1990s that the antidepressant Prozac
    exploded into pharmacies. It's hard to do a lifetime of longitudinal studies on
    a drug that's been widely used for just over a decade. And each time the
    industry invents a new medication, the clock rewinds to zero for that
    particular pill.

    Even if it were possible to conduct extended studies, getting volunteers for
    the work is difficult. The attrition rate is high in any years-long research,
    especially so when the subjects are kids, who bore easily and, at any rate,
    eventually go away to college. On average, 40% of children will drop out of a
    long-term study before the work is done. And that assumes their parents will
    even sign them up in the first place. Some brain scans involve at least a
    little bit of radiation—something most parents are reluctant to expose their
    children to, particularly if those kids have no emotional disorders and are
    simply being used as a baseline to establish the look of a healthy brain.
    Getting good scans from kids who have diagnosable conditions isn't easy, as any
    radiologist who has ever tried to conduct a lengthy MRI on a child with ADHD
    can attest. "Holding still is not exactly what they do well," says Elliott.

    Ethical questions hamstring research too. Any gold-standard study requires that
    some of the kids who are suffering from a disorder receive no drugs so that
    they can be compared with the kids who do. But if you believe the medications
    are helpful, how can you withhold them from a group of symptomatic children who
    need them? Despite such obstacles, research is moving ahead, if haltingly. The
    National Institute of Mental Health is conducting a study called the Preschool
    ADHD Treatment Study, in which researchers will track ADHD kids between 3 and 8
    years old to determine the benefits and side effects of stimulant medications.
    Castellanos and N.Y.U. colleague Rachel Klein are taking things further,
    calling back subjects who were enrolled in an ADHD-treatment study that began
    in 1970 to scan their now late-30s and early-40s brains for the long-term
    effects of drugs. Castellanos is also planning a study of young rats treated
    with varying amounts of psychotropic drugs, conducting dosing and anatomical
    studies that cannot be performed on humans.

    C O V E R

    THE RISK OF HASTY PRESCRIPTIONS
    Just as important as getting the research rolling is fixing the health-care
    system kids rely on to get well. Like adults taking mind meds, children often
    get their drugs not from a specialist in psychiatry and psychopharmacology but
    from any M.D. with the power of the prescription pad. Usually this means the
    pediatrician or family doctor, who isn't likely to have the time or training
    necessary for the extensive evaluations needed before drugs can be properly
    prescribed—much less the required follow-up visits. "There's no way you can
    screen for side effects in a 10-year-old in five minutes," says Miami
    neurologist Sara Dorison. "You have to chat about their summer, their friends."

    Part of the reason for all the hurry-up drugging, say psychiatrists, is managed
    care, which, already disinclined to pay for longer, more costly talk therapy,
    is equally reluctant to foot the bill to make sure patients on pills are well
    monitored. In a perfect—or at least better—world, says Elliott, parents
    considering meds for their kids would have access not to one specialist but
    three: a pediatrician, a behavioral pediatrician and a child-adolescent
    psychiatrist. "Insurance companies talk about second opinions," he says, "but
    they don't actually like them."

    The pharmaceutical companies could be doing better too—and if they don't, the
    government must push them to do it. There is a lot of money to be made in
    developing the next Prozac, but there is less profit if you test it for longer
    than the law demands. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) doesn't require
    long-term studies that follow patients over decades. Its only requirement is
    toxicity trials that span six to eight weeks. In an effort to entice companies
    to conduct lengthier studies, the agency now grants an extension of six months
    of exclusive marketing rights to any company engaging in studies of a drug's
    effects on a minimum of 100 children for more than six months. "It's a
    relatively small amount of data," acknowledges Dr. Thomas Laughren, a
    psychiatrist with the FDA's psychopharmacology division, "but it's better than
    what we had before, which was nothing."

    Until all these things happen, the heaviest lifting will, as always, be left to
    the family. Perhaps the most powerful medicine a suffering child needs is the
    educated instincts of a well-informed parent—one who has taken the time to
    study up on all the pharmaceutical and nonpharmaceutical options and pick the
    right ones. There will always be dangers associated with taking too many
    drugs—and also dangers from taking too few. "Like every other choice you make
    for your kids," says Chang, "you make right ones and wrong ones." When the
    health of a child's mind is on the line, getting it wrong is something that no
    parent wants.

  12. Quoted message said:

    x-no-archive: yes

    Markasurusi Probertasaurusi said:

    Peter, I fully understand. As a parent, one of the hardest things I ever had
    to do was to explain toone son, when he was 12, why his friend's sister (who
    was 14) killed herself by hanging herself inher parents garage. His friend
    was in the car when the parents opened the garage door and saw their
    daughter/sister hanging there, lifeless. We heard the screams from over a
    block away, and ran to see what we could do to help.

    Quoted message said:

    These less than humans who are rabidly anti-medication make me sick.

    Those less than humans who are rabidly pro-drugs makes me
    sick.

    Your sickness, as chronic and pervasive as it is, is due to mental
    subluxations. You have a disconnect between cause & effect. More to the
    point, medications save millions of lives annually. Vaccines have saved
    billions of lives.

    Quoted message said:

    They make a LOT of people sick. And, unfortunately - it causes
    a wake of corpses in the process.

    See above. It is far more dangerous to adjust a cervical spine to treat an
    infection than it is to prescribe the appropriate med.

    Now, Atlas, if you are through cleaning the mensroom, there are fryers could
    use a good de-greasing.

  13. (Jan) said:

    They also tried to turn this thread into an alternative medicine thing.

    Yeah, the nerve of them.

    This group is misc.health.alternative.

    It is designed to discuss ALTERNATIVE medicine pro and con.

    It is NOT to bash conventional medicine.

    Jan is so angry at conventional medicine for not indulging her
    somatic delusions that she obsessively demonizes CM at every
    opportunity. Sad that.

    Aloha,

    Rich
    ------------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------------

    The best defense to logic is ignorance.

  14. "Atlas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Atlas, I will ALWAYS deleted your x-noarchive if you respond to me. If you
    are proud of what you write, you will have the balls to have it archived.

    Quoted message said:
    Markasurusi Probertasaurusi said:

    Peter, I fully understand. As a parent, one of the hardest things I ever


    had

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to do was to explain toone son, when he was 12, why his friend's sister


    (who

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    was 14) killed herself by hanging herself inher parents garage. His


    friend

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    was in the car when the parents opened the garage door and saw their
    daughter/sister hanging there, lifeless. We heard the screams from over a
    block away, and ran to see what we could do to help.

    Quoted message said:

    These less than humans who are rabidly anti-medication make me sick.

    Those less than humans who are rabidly pro-drugs makes me
    sick.

    I know of no one who is less than human who are pro-proper treatment. To
    whom are you referring?

    Quoted message said:

    They make a LOT of people sick. And, unfortunately - it causes
    a wake of corpses in the process.

    Anyone who is pro-drug abuse, as you allude to, also makes me sick. Good
    thing I a pro-proper treatment.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    There
    are times that I almost wish that they would live with what you


    described,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and what we saw. But, that would bring me down to their level, and I


    would

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    not do that.

    You can't go down to anyone's level, because you're already
    the lowest of lows. You have to look way up in order to see the curb.

    Wow. A schoolyard taunt. When I was in the army, we used that line to say
    that we were so "short" (of time before rotation to a new assignment). So
    childish. Did you go to a professional school, or are you a chiropractor?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Please repost this, for those who killfile me, and refuse to see what


    they

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    are doing.

    Given that you change your screen name, oh....every 6 seconds
    in order to slip past people's killfilters, I don't think that a
    repost is in order.

    My brilliant reparte should be frequently reposted, just to be admired.

    Quoted message said:

    Since you're such a big fan of drugs, why don't you lead by
    setting an example...and go back on your anti-psychotic meds?

    Since I have never been on any form of such medication, I am sure that you
    were self-referring.

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks, and have a super day!

    Always do.

  15. "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Medicating Young Minds
    From: Atlas [email hidden]
    Date: 10/30/2003 7:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    x-no-archive: yes

    Markasurusi Probertasaurusi said:

    Peter, I fully understand. As a parent, one of the hardest things I ever


    had

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to do was to explain toone son, when he was 12, why his friend's sister


    (who

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    was 14) killed herself by hanging herself inher parents garage. His


    friend

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    was in the car when the parents opened the garage door and saw their
    daughter/sister hanging there, lifeless. We heard the screams from over


    a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    block away, and ran to see what we could do to help.

    Quoted message said:

    These less than humans who are rabidly anti-medication make me sick.

    Those less than humans who are rabidly pro-drugs makes me
    sick. They make a LOT of people sick. And, unfortunately - it causes
    a wake of corpses in the process.

    Quoted message said:

    There
    are times that I almost wish that they would live with what you


    described,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and what we saw. But, that would bring me down to their level, and I


    would

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    not do that.

    You can't go down to anyone's level, because you're already
    the lowest of lows. You have to look way up in order to see the curb.

    Quoted message said:

    Please repost this, for those who killfile me, and refuse to see what


    they

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    are doing.

    Given that you change your screen name, oh....every 6 seconds
    in order to slip past people's killfilters, I don't think that a
    repost is in order.

    Since you're such a big fan of drugs, why don't you lead by
    setting an example...and go back on your anti-psychotic meds?

    Thanks, and have a super day!

    Atlas
    --
    "I don't do drugs, I am drugs" - Salvador Dali

    As usual, this thread got twisted.

    Yes, as soon as Atlas posted, it became twisted. I think that it is ironic,
    as chiropractors are supposed to UN-twist.

    snip

  16. x-no-archive: yes

    Markasurusi usProbertasaurusius said:

    Atlas, I will ALWAYS deleted your x-noarchive if you respond to me. If you
    are proud of what you write, you will have the balls to have it archived.

    That's fine. You can delete whatever you choose. My posts
    still won't be archived. Sorry to dissapoint you little Marky.

    Oh, and by the way. It has nothing to do with "balls".
    Although, given your nonstop trolling, it's apparent that you have
    neither balls nor any decency.

    Quoted message said:

    I know of no one who is less than human who are pro-proper treatment. To
    whom are you referring?

    Oh, let me help you with that. It would be those who insist
    on using drugs, radiation and surgery - when the problems could've
    been managed with a more conservative, non-invasive, non-toxic
    approach. In other words, dear Marky, I'm referring to you and the
    rest of the pro-allopathic ignorami.

    Quoted message said:

    Anyone who is pro-drug abuse, as you allude to, also makes me sick.

    The war on drugs should first be waged in the medicine
    cabinet. 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    Good
    thing I a pro-proper treatment.

    No. You're pro-drug. And that makes you an ignoramus.
    You're a troll to boot. (Note how many different usenet ID's you've
    created for the sole purpose of slipping through kill filters).

    You see, like so many of the other full time MHA trolls, you
    have no life. Your very existence seems to revolve around posting
    obnoxious lies and vicious vitriol.

    And you want to know the funniest part? Nobody's listening to
    you.

    You're like the mental patient who screams at the walls.
    Perhaps you ought to try some thorazine? Heh.

    Quoted message said:

    Wow. A schoolyard taunt.

    No, not really. If it were a school yard taunt, I'd have to
    use language which is way too sophisticated for your little pea-brain
    to grasp. So instead, I tried to keep the words small, and the
    sentences short...so as to not blow you out of the water. I see I
    must've over-estimated your capacity to grasp even the smallest
    concepts.

    Quoted message said:

    When I was in the army, we used that line to say
    that we were so "short" (of time before rotation to a new assignment). So
    childish. Did you go to a professional school, or are you a chiropractor?

    Ooooooh, how clever! Yes, Marky. I'm a chiropractor. That
    means that between the two of us, I'm the one who's a doctor. 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    My brilliant reparte should be frequently reposted, just to be admired.

    Do you also rub your feces all over yourself?

    Quoted message said:

    Since I have never been on any form of such medication, I am sure that you
    were self-referring.

    Oh, I see. You've never been on any form of medication. And
    yet - you spend a large chunk of your day - in this sewer, advocating
    that very thing. No only are you a nitwit, but also a hypocrite too!
    So typical for an MHA pro-drug liar.

    Quoted message said:

    Always do.

    I read where you have a daughter. I'm sure you're a constant
    source of embarrassment for her.

    Perhaps she'll grow up and meet a nice chiropractor...and
    raise a whole litter of chiropractors. Heh.

    Atlas
    "When we got older, we'd ride our Big Wheels. We all had gun racks on the
    back of 'em."
    - Dan Stanley, 11/27/01

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