Re: marathon goal setting

[email hidden] (Lanceandrew) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(...) one of the best indicators that you're having a great race is if
you're feeling "miserable" at some point with great pain, fatigue & you
consider how if you stopped you'd be free of all the pain and fatigue.

A great race doesn´t by definition have to include such
miserable moments(1) and neither do such moments turn a
race into a great one.

(1) Well, it´s difficult to imagine a great 10K where one
wouldn´t rather stop or at least slow down during a good
third of the race or a great marathon where one wouldn´t
at any point feel rather "miserable" - but I know I´ve
ran a great HM without any such moment.

Is is the *good* moments that make a race a great one. And
it is in order to acquire those moments that we "time-fixed"
runners have to run as if those 5-10mins are of utmost
importance. The difference between running a race as if
one´s gaze were fixed on the clock and running it 5-10mins
slower is not only or mainly in the result, but in the
inner experience: in the latter it is so much less rewarding,
even empty. The PB or the sub-whatever will be just the
icing on the cake.

That said, I have no beef with the (predominantly female)
runners who run marathoners "just to finish", slower than
they could and who aren´t in the least interested to
improve their times.

Unless three or four of them are running side by side in
front of me, that is:-)

Anders

Quoted message said:

That said, I have no beef with the (predominantly female)

runners who run marathoners "just to finish"
___

conduct a study on this anders or are you a sexist stereotyping women?

my simple observation is that i am seeing more female runners (routinely
running in the course of a week at running paths, etc.) than male runners.

i would bet "running" is marketed-promoted more to women than men due to it
being constantly addressed in all these women's health and fashion magazines.
the men's versions of these same magazines seem to stress weight lifting and
getting your abs to a 6-pack, etc. (simple observation of the newstands).

i don't know if in general, more women than men enter marathons with the goal
of simply to finish as opposed to having a time goal. in general
overall?...across the board?...i'd say women have more of a natural character
of perseverence & "fight" (toward an objective/goal) in them then men do.

i'm sure you anders know of a woman who's endured 8+ hours of labor and then
birthed a child. if this were our task anders..(men)..methinks more than half
of us would not even be here....

"Lanceandrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

my simple observation is that i am seeing more female runners
(routinely
running in the course of a week at running paths, etc.) than male
runners.

i would bet "running" is marketed-promoted more to women than men due
to it
being constantly addressed in all these women's health and fashion
magazines.

I don't think it's much of a marketing issue. Women in general have
always been more cognizant of their health. Women have been going to the
doctor at least once a year for Gynecological exams since early teens.
They are very comfortable with preventive medicine to include the yearly
weight, BP and reminders about general health. Men typically do nothing
unless sick or get to 50 when they're obese with high blood pressure or
have a heart attack.

Quoted message said:

the men's versions of these same magazines seem to stress weight
lifting and
getting your abs to a 6-pack, etc. (simple observation of the
newstands).

I don't know what men are reading these rags. It surely isn't reflected
in the general population. I send most of my vacations on the beach and
the only six packs I see are in a cooler.

Quoted message said:

i don't know if in general, more women than men enter marathons with
the goal
of simply to finish as opposed to having a time goal. in general

In my 20 years of experience most are just interested in finishing.

Quoted message said:

overall?...across the board?...i'd say women have more of a natural
character
of perseverance & "fight" (toward an objective/goal) in them then men
do.

I agree. There are more and more women showing up on the ultra circuit.

Quoted message said:

I'm sure you enders know of a woman who's endured 8+ hours of labor
and then
birthed a child. if this were our task enders..(men)..methinks more
than half
of us would not even be here....

I'd give up sex unless wearing a full body condom or wet suit sans any
openings!

-DF

Lanceandrew said:

Quoted message said:

That said, I have no beef with the (predominantly female)
runners who run marathoners "just to finish"

___

conduct a study on this anders or are you a sexist stereotyping women?

my simple observation is that i am seeing more female runners (routinely
running in the course of a week at running paths, etc.) than male runners.

That's an interesting point -- I've noticed that there are higher numbers of
competitive male runners. But among recreational runners, maybe the numbers
are reversed.

When someone writes "I want to do some running but I don't want to look
like a runner", can you guess their gender ? (never mind that it's kind of
like saying "I want to play basketball, I don't want to grow to 6 foot 8".)

So maybe men are more likely to choose other activities to get into shape (or
maybe as Doug suggests they'll simply ignore their health for the most part)

Quoted message said:

i don't know if in general, more women than men enter marathons with the goal
of simply to finish as opposed to having a time goal. in general

I'd say that the vast majority of marathon runners, male and female, are
basically in it to finish. Just look at the finishing times. Last year, about
20% of the field ran a sub 4hr marathon in New York.

The runners who are racing against the clock are the exception, not the rule.

Quoted message said:

overall?...across the board?...i'd say women have more of a natural character
of perseverence & "fight" (toward an objective/goal) in them then men do.

It comes down to motivation. When you see a lady in the gym playing with the
pink dumbells, and lifting ridiculously light weights, they're not wimping
out because they have low pain tolerance. They're wimping out because they're
not motivated to try to push heavy weights (because of the "bulking up" myths,
or whatever). The same people will push themselves pretty hard in setting where
they're more motivated (e.g. an aerobics class)

A recreational runner is not necessarily motivated to push themselves to the
limits -- someone who is motivated by health or general enjoyment might not see
a need for high intensity exercise. Sometimes when I'm over a hard series of
races, I also find it helpful to take it easy and just enjoy running, as
opposed to trying to turn every workout into some kind of battle against the
clock.

Quoted message said:

i'm sure you anders know of a woman who's endured 8+ hours of labor and then
birthed a child.

One of our womens open competitors runs 70 miles a week pushing a baby
stroller.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

(Lanceandrew) said:

conduct a study on this anders or are you a sexist stereotyping women?

It's not sexist to note that ladies don't seem to suffer from the
ill-effects of testosterone overload quite as often as males. <troll>
Especially males from NY :->

Donovan Rebbechi said:

I'd say that the vast majority of marathon runners, male and female, are
basically in it to finish. Just look at the finishing times. Last year, about
20% of the field ran a sub 4hr marathon in New York.

Maybe another culture-based thing fouling up the stats here.

Paris 2004 - 29700 Finishers, 15996 in less than 4 hours = 54%

"steve common" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Lanceandrew) said:

conduct a study on this anders or are you a sexist stereotyping women?

It's not sexist to note that ladies don't seem to suffer from the
ill-effects of testosterone overload quite as often as males. <troll>
Especially males from NY :->

Let's say NYC otherwise that broad sword gets me. 🙂

-DF

[email hidden] (Lanceandrew) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That said, I have no beef with the (predominantly female)

runners who run marathoners "just to finish"

Quoted message said:

conduct a study on this anders or are you a sexist stereotyping women?

No, I´ve only done a fair amount of personal observation
which I´ve backed with some reading of ladies´ mags.

However, what I had in mind were the runners who fulfill
all three criteria: "run marathoner "just to finish", run
slower than they could and aren´t in the least interested
to improve their times".

I do believe that in this group the males are a clear minority:
men whose goal is to finish still tend to run as fast or faster
than they can, to have some unstated time limit and/or to want
to improve or at least to equal their times. (Or they become
interested in the number of the marathons they run, while women
tend to remain perfectly happy to do their one or two annual
marathons.)

Needless to say, I´m well aware of the many female runners
who ran much for the same reasons and much in the same way
as I do.

Quoted message said:

my simple observation is that i am seeing more female runners (routinely
running in the course of a week at running paths, etc.) than male runners.

There are more and more female runners here, too. The percentage
of female marathoners has increased steadily and strongly, and
it is largest in the 20-30 group; IIRC there are more female
marathoners in the 20-30 than in the 30-40 group, whereas there
are twice as much men in the 30-40 than in the 20-30 group.

(IMHO the males in the 20-30 fall into four categories:
1. those who aren´t interested in physical exercise,
2. those who are interested in their "body shape",
3. those who are active in team or non-running sports, and
4. those who run marathons.
For females the equivalent categories 2-3 are certainly smaller
(and categories 2 and 4 aren´t as mutually exclusive.) and
category 1 quite probably is.)

Quoted message said:

i would bet "running" is marketed-promoted more to women than men due to it
being constantly addressed in all these women's health and fashion magazines.
the men's versions of these same magazines seem to stress weight lifting and
getting your abs to a 6-pack, etc. (simple observation of the newstands).

It´s true that marathoning is (again) riding on top of a
wave, but I have no idea which came first, the phenomenon
or the marketing:-) One can read about running and female
marathoners in ordinary ladies´ magazines, newspapers
feature shoe tests in their Sunday supplements etc here.

FWIW in Finland more and more of the contents of the leading(1)
running magazine has been aimed at the mass marathoner or the
beginner and the cirulation has risen from 14.000 to 19.000.
(1) It used to be the only one until two years afo when Runners´
World jumped on the bandwagon with a Finnish edition. (OTOH
when a "quality men´s magazine" was launched last year it
featured a marathon training plan on the cover; the magazine
folded after two issues...)

Quoted message said:

i'm sure you anders know of a woman who's endured 8+ hours of labor and then
birthed a child. if this were our task anders..(men)..methinks more than half
of us would not even be here....

Fortunately I don´t personally know of 8+ hours, but let´s
just say that I´m not all that keen on exaggerating any pain
or discomfort I may endure during a marathon:-)

Anders

[email hidden] (Anders Lustig) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

No, I´ve only done a fair amount of personal observation
which I´ve backed with some reading of ladies´ mags.

Ah HEM! ????????? Normal athletes are doing the "one handed polka"
with Hustler magazine, but this guy's on the crapper with "Womans
world". I
m not saying this questions his sexuality, but, well, yes I am.

<< Normal athletes are doing the "one handed polka"
with Hustler magazine, but this guy's on the crapper with "Womans
world". I
m not saying this questions his sexuality, but, well, yes I am. >>

why?
a grrl's a grrl.

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Donovan Rebbechi said:

I'd say that the vast majority of marathon runners, male and female, are
basically in it to finish. Just look at the finishing times. Last year, about
20% of the field ran a sub 4hr marathon in New York.

The runners who are racing against the clock are the exception, not the rule.

That's a common misconception of some good runners. Just because
someone runs a 4+ hour marathon, do not assume they're not racing the
clock to get their own personal PR or to achieve what they can from
their own abilities.

Enjoy your speed and ability, but don't assume that those much slower
than you are "just finishing."

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

"Mike Tennent" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

I'd say that the vast majority of marathon runners, male and female, are
basically in it to finish. Just look at the finishing times. Last year,
about
20% of the field ran a sub 4hr marathon in New York.

The runners who are racing against the clock are the exception, not the
rule.

That's a common misconception of some good runners. Just because
someone runs a 4+ hour marathon, do not assume they're not racing the
clock to get their own personal PR or to achieve what they can from
their own abilities.

Enjoy your speed and ability, but don't assume that those much slower
than you are "just finishing."

Yes, my friend Linda has been running for years and is
very competitive against the other women in our running
club that are of her ability. I would know, as I have gone
back many times at races I ran myself and ran in the last
mile or two with her as part of my cool down.

Every time, she (and many others around her) are gasping
for air and doing everything they can to 'set a PR', or
perhaps beat a competitor beside them to move up in
the AG score. I've seen her almost puke with dry heaving
at the end of a race. She's "got game".

She runs 2:08 for the half marathon, and will probably try
her first full marathon next year. It won't be sub-4, but she
will fully be trying to get the fastest time she can. Within an
hour of the end she'll be analyzing her performance to find
out how she can improve next time.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton ON)
www.absolutelyaccurate.com
www.allfalldown.org

Mike Tennent said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

I'd say that the vast majority of marathon runners, male and female, are
basically in it to finish. Just look at the finishing times. Last year, about
20% of the field ran a sub 4hr marathon in New York.

The runners who are racing against the clock are the exception, not the rule.

That's a common misconception of some good runners. Just because
someone runs a 4+ hour marathon, do not assume they're not racing the
clock to get their own personal PR or to achieve what they can from
their own abilities.

Well, I agree that some people may just not have as much ability. Also,
masters and female competitors will inevitably be slower.

However, IMO if you're just doing what amounts to a 26 mile training run,
then you're not really racing against the clock.

Also, if you're setting up your training plan such that you're doing the
minimum possible for the purpose of completeing the race (as opposed to
training like someone who wants to race it), then in my book, you're not
really racing the clock -- even if you do sprint to the finish and puke at
the finish line.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

The great guru has not even run a marathon yet, but you all listen to
him like the second coming. give me a break.

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Mike Tennent said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

I'd say that the vast majority of marathon runners, male and female, are
basically in it to finish. Just look at the finishing times. Last year, about
20% of the field ran a sub 4hr marathon in New York.

The runners who are racing against the clock are the exception, not the rule.

That's a common misconception of some good runners. Just because
someone runs a 4+ hour marathon, do not assume they're not racing the
clock to get their own personal PR or to achieve what they can from
their own abilities.

Well, I agree that some people may just not have as much ability. Also,
masters and female competitors will inevitably be slower.

However, IMO if you're just doing what amounts to a 26 mile training run,
then you're not really racing against the clock.

Also, if you're setting up your training plan such that you're doing the
minimum possible for the purpose of completeing the race (as opposed to
training like someone who wants to race it), then in my book, you're not
really racing the clock -- even if you do sprint to the finish and puke at
the finish line.

Cheers,

The Buddy Guy said:

The great guru has not even run a marathon yet, but you all listen to
him like the second coming. give me a break.

And he better run a sub 2:45 in the NYCM. Just kidding Donovan. (-: I
personally want to thank him for the amount of good information he's
contributed to rec.running. So thankyou!

tkb

<<

The Buddy Guy said:

The great guru has not even run a marathon yet, but you all listen to
him like the second coming. give me a break. >>

Second cum?
How come?
Did I mess the first one?
I confess, yes,
I wander off...
I do wonder, too.
Now, what was the question?
O yes, my confession.
Well, you see, it all started...

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<<

The Buddy Guy said:

The great guru has not even run a marathon yet, but you all listen to
him like the second coming. give me a break.

And he better run a sub 2:45 in the NYCM. Just kidding Donovan. (-: I
personally want to thank him for the amount of good information he's
contributed to rec.running. So thankyou!

tkb>>

Fob! Are you making this stuff up?
Shame....

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<< I do wonder, too.
Now, what was the question?
O yes, my confession.
Well, you see, it all started... >>

Whoops!
It's all coming back to me...

_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
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The Buddy Guy said:

The great guru has not even run a marathon yet,
but you all listen to him like the second coming. give me a break.

Maybe if you weren't such a dumbass, they'd listen to you too.

--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/