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Re: Lance and Floyd

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2 May 2005
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  1. so if all you lance lovers want to be like lance,
    win the local 45+ masters parking lot/industrial park crit,
    pump your fist, yell "BOO-YA IN YOUR FACE SUCKERS!"
    Then talk smack about all the other riders.

    the way I see it, lance is very motivated to see
    his team win, at any cost, so he doesn't care about
    other riders as human beings or friends, but pawns in his game,
    which is the successfull way for him to do it.
    Other champions, like Induarain, Lemond, and even
    Hinault to a degree, were more well liked because they
    played a more tradittional european game of letting
    other teams fight for scraps and get some honour,
    rather than humiliating them, the way lance likes to do
    it. he has no class, grace, or humility, which are not
    required to be a champion, but do make the sport
    great.
    after all the work landis did for lance he deserved better
    than to basically be mocked at the finish line, like lance
    was doing some cheesy american football endzone dance.

  2. Dear [email hidden],

    Please explain how you divine the intentions and motivations of people
    you have never met. Do you have telepathic powers?

    Thanks,

    Ed

  3. Hi Ed,
    that is a retarded question. lance is a public person, more than
    any other cyclist in the history of the sport,
    and he is the subject of books, interviews, and
    way way too much time on OLN, I can't watch a race
    without being bombarded with what kind of coffee he drinks,
    how Sheryl Crow inspect his chamois, etc.
    I don't know him, but from what I've seen, heard,
    and generally gathered from over 10 years
    participating in the sport, I can agree with
    RVD by concluding he is a [censored].
    He is the greatest cyclist ever next to Eddy,
    but I'm sorry, the guy is an [censored].
    Maybe he's a nice guy, and just pretends to
    be a [censored] [censored] on TV, I don't know.
    But Marty Jemison, Andy Bishop,
    and many other good american cyclists
    have come in conflict with Lance over the years,
    along with harrassing little riders like
    Simeoni, Indurain would NEVER have
    stopped down to the level of that kinda petty
    stuff - suing other riders.
    the gesture he made to floyd was not
    nice, was it? do you have to be telepathic to
    know that?

  4. Quoted message said:

    Hi Ed,
    that is a retarded question. lance is a public person, more than
    any other cyclist in the history of the sport,
    and he is the subject of books, interviews, and
    way way too much time on OLN, I can't watch a race
    without being bombarded with what kind of coffee he drinks,
    how Sheryl Crow inspect his chamois, etc.
    I don't know him, but from what I've seen, heard,
    and generally gathered from over 10 years
    participating in the sport, I can agree with
    RVD by concluding he is a [censored].
    He is the greatest cyclist ever next to Eddy,
    but I'm sorry, the guy is an [censored].
    Maybe he's a nice guy, and just pretends to
    be a [censored] [censored] on TV, I don't know.
    But Marty Jemison, Andy Bishop,
    and many other good american cyclists
    have come in conflict with Lance over the years,
    along with harrassing little riders like
    Simeoni, Indurain would NEVER have
    stopped down to the level of that kinda petty
    stuff - suing other riders.
    the gesture he made to floyd was not
    nice, was it? do you have to be telepathic to
    know that?

    Dear [email hidden],

    You sure are cute when you're a raving lunatic.

    Thanks,

    Ed

  5. raving? no. there is a place for an athlete like armstrong,
    nascar, football, baseball, sports like that where its accepted
    practice to taunt opponents, talk smack.
    Remember the 96 tour when he tried to beat up a little
    french dude for "riding sketchy" - he's been doing stuff like
    that for years.
    When you mention stuff like this to people like you,
    the response is always some weird one line response -
    how about telling my why his gesture to Floyd was
    good, or how it was an example of his sportsmanlike conduct?

    If Floyd won the Tour this year, he would thank
    Lance for helping him in the past, not taunt him with gestures,
    because he has class.

  6. http://coolbicycling.com/2005tourdegeorgiastage5_03.htm

    There's a picture on this page of Lance turning around and pointing
    during stage 5. You can see him turned around but can't really see him
    pointing. It's a blog site by the woman who asked the stupid question
    at the press conference about Sheryl's cooking. By the way, she's also
    the same woman in the Lance Chronicles who makes a fool of herself by
    yelling "I love you Lance" in the team bus window while they all laugh
    at her. Yikes.

  7. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Stewart Fleming said:
    Ed Sullivan said:

    Dear [email hidden],

    Please explain how you divine the intentions and motivations of people
    you have never met. Do you have telepathic powers?

    This is a bit like phoning up a clairvoyant and asking them if they know
    who you are and were they expecting your call...

    So why do they have to announce when and where the psychics fair is?
    Shouldn't they all know anyway?

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Butter is love.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  8. the fueds were between the champions, not between an
    armstrong and a simeoni or bassons.
    I do agree though, Merckx was a little like Armstrong, he didn't like
    "his" riders leaving the fold and would punish his opponents.
    I guess when you can dominate that way,
    you don't need to be nice, but floyds comment
    about discovery "not being nice to him"
    discovery = Lance.
    I thought Indurain was a boring rider, but he proved
    you don't have to be like that to win,
    but I guess it's just a personality thing -
    the bad-ass "don't mess with
    texas" thing.
    being the best is going to make you a
    little disliked, but you don't have to rub it in
    peoples faces - which is lances raison d'etre,
    "the germans spit on me, so Kloden does not
    get a stage" - I thought that was pretty cool
    of Lance actually, but you get the idea, it
    seems like he's successfully
    motivated by rage, WWF death cage style.
    last year when he said he wanted floyd to win a stage,
    he really wanted his TEAM to win a stage,
    he could give a nut about Landis, or
    Danielson, Hamilton, Jemison, Livingston,
    etc - they are all dispensible flunkies to him,
    it's not like he considers them real friends -
    did he give Chann Mcrae any help? wasn't that
    his best friend ever?

  9. Quoted message said:

    he really wanted his TEAM to win a stage,
    he could give a nut about Landis, or
    Danielson, Hamilton, Jemison, Livingston,
    etc - they are all dispensible flunkies to him,
    it's not like he considers them real friends -
    did he give Chann Mcrae any help? wasn't that
    his best friend ever?

    Make idle (or idol for the LA fans) speculation about the
    ramifications of a single gesture is mormal fodder for rbr; what I
    fail to understand is trying to turn our far removed observations into
    a whole life skein of people we don't really know.

    Here are some 'facts': I don't know what motivates my co-workers that
    I have known in a variety of circumstances for almost two years. I
    don't have a clue what motivates my brother-in-law or his wife and
    I've known him for 20. I sometimes am completely befuddled by my wife
    and I've known her about as long as anyone, seeing as now I've lived
    with her longer than anyone else. (For instance, 20 years and counting
    - my mother figured maybe she could take me for a couple of years,
    tops.)

    With the exception of my wife and my mother, any of the above could be
    white racists (and my mother OTOH dislikes very strongly a whole lot
    of white folks), except those that would have to be either black or
    Chinese racists. Any, with the above noted exceptions, could be
    molesting small children or puppies or small children with puppies or,
    most likely, puppies with small children.

    Some could be serial murderers, especially as the murder rate in DC
    could mask several. Some of you in California might even know the guy
    taking pot shots at the freeway and think he or she is a nice person.

    We have a new guy that some people think is a pain in the ass, some
    seem to like him and I think is trying to be the next Chief Exec of
    the JCC - which is no skin off my nose, seeing as how they aren't
    likely to make a Unitarian Universalist the CEO of a Jewish Community
    Center.

    Anyway, I am amazed that there are so many people that can take small
    gestures from and to people they do not even know and turn them into
    entire story lines complete with villains, victims and good guys. I
    wouldn't do that with the people I spend time with almost every day.

    Back story: the worst fight I thought I would have to step into as an
    official was when two guys crossed the line, the winner taunting the
    loser. They came off their bikes like it was going to be a war, and it
    turned out to be some game they had been working into over the race. I
    looked stupid stepping in between them about the time they started
    laughing.

    Another back story: In basic training back in the, well, a while ago,
    we thought the drill instructors were raving maniacs. The 'joke' was
    that if one of them told four of us to carry a Cadillac to the top of
    a hill, we would before we realized it was physically impossible. The
    day after we finished final qualifications - think it was the range
    fire where us that could shoot pretty good used an extra illegal
    thousand rounds or so to run up a better than 100 per cent rating for
    all concerned - the drill sergeants sat down with us with beer and
    turned out to be completely normal people, even likeable in almost
    every case. And we 'knew' them 16 hours a day for a couple of months -
    in fact, from a distance of about 4 inches, their face in ours.

    I'll just watch the racing. If and when someone starts taking people
    down, I'll worry about his character. Until then, its enough that I
    know that I don't know [censored] about them.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  10. Curtis, what's wrong with you? You're making sense and this is, you
    know, rbr. Acknowledging your limitations in divining the thoughts and
    intentions of others is realistic and commendable but ... WE JUST DON'T
    GET IT! Quit wasting our time.

    Curtis L. Russell said:
    Quoted message said:

    he really wanted his TEAM to win a stage,
    he could give a nut about Landis, or
    Danielson, Hamilton, Jemison, Livingston,
    etc - they are all dispensible flunkies to him,
    it's not like he considers them real friends -
    did he give Chann Mcrae any help? wasn't that
    his best friend ever?

    Make idle (or idol for the LA fans) speculation about the
    ramifications of a single gesture is mormal fodder for rbr; what I
    fail to understand is trying to turn our far removed observations into
    a whole life skein of people we don't really know.

    Here are some 'facts': I don't know what motivates my co-workers that
    I have known in a variety of circumstances for almost two years. I
    don't have a clue what motivates my brother-in-law or his wife and
    I've known him for 20. I sometimes am completely befuddled by my wife
    and I've known her about as long as anyone, seeing as now I've lived
    with her longer than anyone else. (For instance, 20 years and counting
    - my mother figured maybe she could take me for a couple of years,
    tops.)

    With the exception of my wife and my mother, any of the above could be
    white racists (and my mother OTOH dislikes very strongly a whole lot
    of white folks), except those that would have to be either black or
    Chinese racists. Any, with the above noted exceptions, could be
    molesting small children or puppies or small children with puppies or,
    most likely, puppies with small children.

    Some could be serial murderers, especially as the murder rate in DC
    could mask several. Some of you in California might even know the guy
    taking pot shots at the freeway and think he or she is a nice person.

    We have a new guy that some people think is a pain in the ass, some
    seem to like him and I think is trying to be the next Chief Exec of
    the JCC - which is no skin off my nose, seeing as how they aren't
    likely to make a Unitarian Universalist the CEO of a Jewish Community
    Center.

    Anyway, I am amazed that there are so many people that can take small
    gestures from and to people they do not even know and turn them into
    entire story lines complete with villains, victims and good guys. I
    wouldn't do that with the people I spend time with almost every day.

    Back story: the worst fight I thought I would have to step into as an
    official was when two guys crossed the line, the winner taunting the
    loser. They came off their bikes like it was going to be a war, and it
    turned out to be some game they had been working into over the race. I
    looked stupid stepping in between them about the time they started
    laughing.

    Another back story: In basic training back in the, well, a while ago,
    we thought the drill instructors were raving maniacs. The 'joke' was
    that if one of them told four of us to carry a Cadillac to the top of
    a hill, we would before we realized it was physically impossible. The
    day after we finished final qualifications - think it was the range
    fire where us that could shoot pretty good used an extra illegal
    thousand rounds or so to run up a better than 100 per cent rating for
    all concerned - the drill sergeants sat down with us with beer and
    turned out to be completely normal people, even likeable in almost
    every case. And we 'knew' them 16 hours a day for a couple of months -
    in fact, from a distance of about 4 inches, their face in ours.

    I'll just watch the racing. If and when someone starts taking people
    down, I'll worry about his character. Until then, its enough that I
    know that I don't know [censored] about them.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  11. curtis wrote:
    "Anyway, I am amazed that there are so many people that can take small
    gestures from and to people they do not even know and turn them into
    entire story lines complete with villains, victims and good guys. I
    wouldn't do that with the people I spend time with almost every day. "

    I don't want to watch you and your workplace on TV (unless it's really
    funny like the
    office), that would be as boring as my own life...
    and bike racing is like that, there are good guys, villians, and
    victims.
    Have you ever read anything by Samuel Abt? he doesn't write much about
    the
    actual racing - his articles are about the drama, the characters, the
    winners, the losers,
    the champions and the little riders. He wrote an article about Luc
    Leblanc, it was
    about how he chased his own teammates down regularly and was a big
    egotistical megamaniacal jerk.
    He contrasted that to Alex Zulle, a rider of great class and
    generosity, who
    was equally nice in victory and defeat, helping Indurain on his bad day
    on
    Luz Ardiden in the 96 tour.
    I enjoy watching the racing in context - I root for riders I like and
    can relate to.
    It seems simple to me, but people on this list make it seem like if you
    don't
    know Lance personally, you can't have an opinion on the guy.
    you don't have to agree with me, you can love Lance for all his
    bravado and machismo - whatever, thats whats good about cycling,
    and sport.
    why does cycle sport show us the inside of cipo's closets? to
    show us his personality, his life, a glimpse into his world.
    watching cycling out of context, just a a bunch of dudes on
    bikes, would be pretty boring.

  12. Quoted message said:

    It seems simple to me, but people on this list make it seem like if you
    don't
    know Lance personally, you can't have an opinion on the guy.

    Not my point. Have an opinion of the guy, just don't turn itinto a
    thesis. Thinking he's an [censored] is one thing: projecting his
    relationship with Landis based on a single gesture or comment and then
    trying to place it into the bike racing universe is IMO going a bit
    beyond and overboard. Especially a gesture made at the end of a bike
    race.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  13. On Tue, 03 May 2005 18:06:45 -0700, Tim Lines <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Curtis, what's wrong with you? You're making sense and this is, you
    know, rbr. Acknowledging your limitations in divining the thoughts and
    intentions of others is realistic and commendable but ... WE JUST DON'T
    GET IT! Quit wasting our time.

    I know why you really said that...

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  14. Curtis L. Russell said:

    Thinking he's an [censored] is one thing: projecting his
    relationship with Landis based on a single gesture or comment and


    then

    Quoted message said:

    trying to place it into the bike racing universe is IMO going a bit
    beyond and overboard.

    Not at all. The way I read the new VeloNews article, his assessment of
    the Floyd/Lance relationship seems right on target. There's bad blood.
    Apparently even the roadside fans picked up on it, some of them
    marking out the word "Lance" on their "Lance Fan" posters and repacing
    it with "Floyd." Just as in this forum, people are choosing sides
    based on their perceptions, which are always going to be imperfectly
    informed. But, hey, that's what sports fans do.

    Besides, in this case one needn't base one's preception about the way
    Lance gets along with guys who have left his team, including Floyd, on
    a single gesture. There's a pattern, and the gesture was perfectly
    consistent with that pattern. The hyper-competitive Lance forms and
    holds grudges. So did Michael Jordan. Some people like that style;
    some don't. Both are entitled to have opinions about it and voice
    them.

  15. Curtis L. Russell said:

    On Tue, 03 May 2005 18:06:45 -0700, Tim Lines <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Curtis, what's wrong with you? You're making sense and this is, you
    know, rbr. Acknowledging your limitations in divining the thoughts and
    intentions of others is realistic and commendable but ... WE JUST DON'T
    GET IT! Quit wasting our time.

    I know why you really said that...

    I guess this means you know me better than you know your own wife.

    <sigh> ... this isn't going to turn into another one of those gay
    threads, is it?

  16. On Wed, 04 May 2005 16:53:54 -0700, Tim Lines <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    I guess this means you know me better than you know your own wife.

    <sigh> ... this isn't going to turn into another one of those gay
    threads, is it?

    No, as the lack of understanding is part of the fun when it comes to
    datig, marriage and all that. OTOH, you'd think that after 20 years
    she could accept that eating cold pizza from the frig for breakfast is
    a relatively normal thing.

    Its not like I'm having a beer with it. Cold pizza and diet pepsi says
    Saturday morning like few other things...

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  17. Wait. I guy points to another and then to the clock, and then states
    shortly after the race that the only way he sprinted away was because
    of he was unsure about time bonuses and thought it was going to be
    close.

    If anything this indicates that Lance likely didn't know if the time
    gap was enough to put his boy into first place. You think as he is
    sprinting up to the line he is doing the math? Just because we knewn
    the exact time doesn't mean Lance did. Seems to me that everyone is
    project their knowledge base onto a guy who was obviously not that
    informed on the status of the GC as he crossed the line.

    I would say it is at least probable that Lance was just saying hey the
    reason I attacked you is because of the time because he didn't know
    that his boy had won be nine seconds.

    Even if he was taunting. Which speaks more to character? Reminding
    someone who you gave a chance when known else would, when his career
    was pretty much at it's lowest point only to have him leave your
    orginization for more cash once he made it big, that your boy, your
    team, has won. Or being the guy who ditches out on the team who picked
    him up and made him a star. It seems clear from things Lance has said
    that he felt pretty betrayed by Floyd defection. Don't tell me that
    changing teams is just cycling. So is celebrating a GC win.

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