Re: _Keeping it off_ book

"Ignoramus26161" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One thing that I disagreed with, in that book, is that they push low
fat dieting using extremely idiotic reasoning. (saying something like
you can eat 2.2 times more grams of bread than fat, for the same
calories, so, bread is better than fat)

That's a very common line of reasonning. You almost find the same one, with
people claiming you should stay away for calorie dense food (chocolate,
nuts, cheese...), because it will not satiate your hunger. The logic is that
you would need *volume* to feel satiated, rather than plain old calories.
That's this kind of reasonning that is at the root of the low fat approach :
fats are more than twice as caloric, so they are denser, so they should be
avoided in favor of less dense food.
However my experience has been that things like cheese are highly satisfying
and give lasting satiety.

Quoted message said:

But, I do not take diet advice from psychologists.

Good psychologists who work on eating disorders usually know good
nutritionists, and vice-versa. In an ideal situation, the should work as a
team.

Quoted message said:

My another guess is that the successful losers described in the book
were actually near normal people, forced to overeat by some absurd
psychological conditions and not by their biology.

My personnal guess is that a *lot* of fat people belong to that category.
Otherwise, we would not see such an increase in the obesity rate. A lot of
obese people *also* have an eating disorder (bingeing, hyperphagia, bulimia,
cognitive distorsion...), beyond merelly eating too much. At least, in my
case, I know the psychological issues far outweight any biological reasons,
including diabete. It's not like overeating was my first attempt at dealing
with psychological issues/attempting to hurt myself.

Quoted message said:

Whereas, say, someone with more screwed up metabolism would not do as
well on the described diets and all resolve in the world would not
help that person.

I don't think you can cut obesity into two distinct categories like this. I
think the line eventually blurs. Being obese brings its own psychological
problems (low self-esteem, hostility from others) and so does dieting
(binary thinking, compulsions...). So, eventually, many purely biological
obesities will become compounded with psychological issues. Likewise, many
psychological obesities will eventually develop biological issues (insulin
resistance...).
Maybe that's why the study is showing such a "high" success rate on the
dieters who do things on their own, rather than the low success rate of
those following a plan or a doctor. Doing things on your own has the
advantage that you're not bounded by any given theory. A doctor/plan will be
plagued by the hammer syndrom; a nutritionist will see nutritional problems,
a psychologist will see psychological problems... On the other hand, a
dieter going along his own path remains open to all the different
possibilities. As the study states, even integrating contradicting
approaches is not a problem for them.

Quoted message said:

Psychology is a field where it is hard to make statements well founded
in evidence.

Psychiatry is supposed to be a science. But I agree that it is harder to do
a perfect clinical study, though you can certainly build reasonnably
scientific psychiatric experiences. However, cognitive psychology and
beheavioural therapy have shown a success rate about as good (or as bad) as
the other dieting methods, they start slowler, but usually end up being
decent (again, decent by usual low success rates) in maintainance.

Cubit wrote:
|| Great stuff. I felt the summary probably covered everything I
|| needed, but I bought a copy anyway, just in case the summary webpage
|| goes away.
||
|| Amazon used books were too pricey, but I found a hardback copy on
|| eBay for $3.50 plus $2 shipping.
||
|| my ended eBay purchase: http://tinyurl.com/6ny8e
||
|| I'm concerned that I too spend too much time focusing on my diet.
|| Maybe that will change, when I'm no longer restricting my calories
|| to a 1400 per day average. Someday, 1600 per day should be much
|| more comfortable.
||

Keep in mind that what is reported in that book is just one study and what
it reports, while certainly interesting, shouldn't be taken as gospel truth.
I personally feel that if I don't put considerable focus on my diet (i.e.,
what & how much I eat) on a constant basis that I will just drift back to
367 lbs or die on the way. I think that's just the way it is for me.

More research needs to be done along the lines of what's in this book. I'm
going to buy a copy, too.

||
|| "Ignoramus13725" <[email hidden]> wrote in
|| message news:[email hidden]...
||| I am reading a book _Keeping it Off_ by Robert Colvin and Susan
||| Olson. This is an old book from 1985, I bought it used from Amazon.
|||
||| The book is excellent and a summary of it is available at
|||
||| http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/success.htm
|||
||| The book is a great read and I highly recommend it. It describes
||| what
||| is common amongst successful maintainers, which are defined as
||| people who
|||
||| - lost over 20% of body weight
||| - kept it off for 2 years
||| - are not more than 5 lbs away from their lowest weight
|||
||| The discuss the traits amongst those successful people, how they
||| think about weight loss, what they do, what they do not do etc.
|||
||| There are very few books about weight maintenance, probably because
||| so few people can get to the point where they need to maintain
||| weight,
||| and even fewer of them actually maintain the loss. According to
||| authors, only 2% of those who started dieting can maintain
||| successfully for 2 years.
|||
||| Unfortunately, the authors are psychologists, and looked at those
||| successful dieters from only psychological point of view. (I am not
||| done with the book yet). I wish they tried to look at the somatic
||| differences, if any, between successful and unsuccessful dieters.
|||
||| It also does not do a good enough job at comparing those successful
||| people with controls who have not managed to be as successful. So,
||| they could fall into a trap of describing their common traits that
||| did not make a difference. Both of them had prior clinical
||| experience with "treating" obese dieters, with little (average)
||| success, so,
||| hopefully, they could detect those success traits based on their
||| experience.
|||
||| All in all, it is a great common sense book that describes what
||| works.
|||
||| The great majority of maintainers lost weight on their own, not on
||| any sort of commercial programs. All of them had an epiphany at some
||| point, which has been my experience exactly. They are all very aware
||| of their current weight and they actively manage it. Again, my
||| experience. They moved away from food obsessions and food takes
||| little place in their life, which I cannot say yet about myself,
||| although it
||| has been getting a tad better later.
|||
|||
||| i

Quoted message said:

My guess is that if you stop at 200 lbs and walk even a little bit
every day, and do 20 pushups per day, you'd be able to eat 2000
calories, maybe more.

I don't think that a formerly fat person can be ever converted to a
truly normal person.

It is disconcerting to think that I am already on statistically unlikely
ground. However, I feel I have an eclectic mosaic of the truth, even if I
don't have scientific proof. I am projecting a very lean self for the rest
of my life. Time will tell.

What if the genetic design map takes into account the body type needed by a
hunter? Is it possible, that when ingesting a diet consistent with a very
good hunting season, the body adapts by dropping body fat that might hinder
the physical running needed for hunting? My guess is that hunters ate lots
of raw fat from kills. My hypothesis is that a high fat diet (without
modern carbs) will trigger the body I envision. I'm also hoping that such
a genetic mechanism might be unable to distinguish the difference between
lard and cheese.

Gawd, I would love to be saying "I told you so" someday.

Dr. Taller used blood tests to confirm compliance (or not) in his high fat
low carb patients. He claimed that *all* of his complying patients lost
weight. He said that those eating such a diet bottom out at 11% body fat.
He used safflower oil for much of the fat in his diets. This encourages me
to believe that any type of fat will work. Each of the high fat proponents
seems to pick a different fat source for their theory.

I avoid polyunsaturated oils (like safflower oil) because of the association
with cancer. I wish I could find a mayonnaise that is made from coconut
oil. I love mayonnaise.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/LowCarbHighFat/

Roger,

One thing that book didn't discuss, because the lab research hadn't been
done was the effect of the massively readjusted Set Point on long term
maintenance.

I read somewhere that there may be a strong variation in whether or not
people have a strong set point. Those that do, may find it impossible to
maintain massive weight losses, and they are the ones who show up at obesity
clinics. The people who successfully lose and maintain do not, which skews
the statistics.

I sense a certain amount of set point going on in my body--there's no
question it wants to weigh more and I can't just eat without thinking the
way I could when I was younger and not gain. But I think that long term
success is more possible than some of the more recent books and lab research
would suggest. That book is great because they did find a large group of
people who kept a lot of weight off for a long time, which is what we all
want to know is possible.

-- Jenny - Low Carbing for 5 years. Below goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.7 .
Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!

Jenny's new site: What they Don't Tell You About Diabetes
http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/

Jenny's Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cubit wrote:
|| Great stuff. I felt the summary probably covered everything I
|| needed, but I bought a copy anyway, just in case the summary webpage
|| goes away.
||
|| Amazon used books were too pricey, but I found a hardback copy on
|| eBay for $3.50 plus $2 shipping.
||
|| my ended eBay purchase: http://tinyurl.com/6ny8e
||
|| I'm concerned that I too spend too much time focusing on my diet.
|| Maybe that will change, when I'm no longer restricting my calories
|| to a 1400 per day average. Someday, 1600 per day should be much
|| more comfortable.
||

Keep in mind that what is reported in that book is just one study and what
it reports, while certainly interesting, shouldn't be taken as gospel

truth.

Quoted message said:

I personally feel that if I don't put considerable focus on my diet (i.e.,
what & how much I eat) on a constant basis that I will just drift back to
367 lbs or die on the way. I think that's just the way it is for me.

More research needs to be done along the lines of what's in this book.

I'm

Quoted message said:

going to buy a copy, too.

||
|| "Ignoramus13725" <[email hidden]> wrote in
|| message news:[email hidden]...
||| I am reading a book _Keeping it Off_ by Robert Colvin and Susan
||| Olson. This is an old book from 1985, I bought it used from Amazon.
|||
||| The book is excellent and a summary of it is available at
|||
||| http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/success.htm
|||
||| The book is a great read and I highly recommend it. It describes
||| what
||| is common amongst successful maintainers, which are defined as
||| people who
|||
||| - lost over 20% of body weight
||| - kept it off for 2 years
||| - are not more than 5 lbs away from their lowest weight
|||
||| The discuss the traits amongst those successful people, how they
||| think about weight loss, what they do, what they do not do etc.
|||
||| There are very few books about weight maintenance, probably because
||| so few people can get to the point where they need to maintain
||| weight,
||| and even fewer of them actually maintain the loss. According to
||| authors, only 2% of those who started dieting can maintain
||| successfully for 2 years.
|||
||| Unfortunately, the authors are psychologists, and looked at those
||| successful dieters from only psychological point of view. (I am not
||| done with the book yet). I wish they tried to look at the somatic
||| differences, if any, between successful and unsuccessful dieters.
|||
||| It also does not do a good enough job at comparing those successful
||| people with controls who have not managed to be as successful. So,
||| they could fall into a trap of describing their common traits that
||| did not make a difference. Both of them had prior clinical
||| experience with "treating" obese dieters, with little (average)
||| success, so,
||| hopefully, they could detect those success traits based on their
||| experience.
|||
||| All in all, it is a great common sense book that describes what
||| works.
|||
||| The great majority of maintainers lost weight on their own, not on
||| any sort of commercial programs. All of them had an epiphany at some
||| point, which has been my experience exactly. They are all very aware
||| of their current weight and they actively manage it. Again, my
||| experience. They moved away from food obsessions and food takes
||| little place in their life, which I cannot say yet about myself,
||| although it
||| has been getting a tad better later.
|||
|||
||| i

Jenny wrote:
|| Roger,
||
|| One thing that book didn't discuss, because the lab research hadn't
|| been done was the effect of the massively readjusted Set Point on
|| long term maintenance.
||
|| I read somewhere that there may be a strong variation in whether or
|| not people have a strong set point. Those that do, may find it
|| impossible to maintain massive weight losses, and they are the ones
|| who show up at obesity clinics. The people who successfully lose and
|| maintain do not, which skews the statistics.

Interesting....I've never heard of the notion of a "strong" set point. Boy,
it's a little scary to think about, when you think about it.

What does a set point do to your body -- if you lost to a point below your
set point, will you just be hungry or will you just have appetite, no matter
what kind of food you're eating? If I had a set point, I think it is
somehow wired into my soul because I just like to eat.

||
|| I sense a certain amount of set point going on in my body--there's no
|| question it wants to weigh more and I can't just eat without
|| thinking the way I could when I was younger and not gain. But I
|| think that long term success is more possible than some of the more
|| recent books and lab research would suggest. That book is great
|| because they did find a large group of people who kept a lot of
|| weight off for a long time, which is what we all want to know is
|| possible.

Right.

||
|| -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 5 years. Below goal for weight. Type 2
|| diabetes, hba1c 5.7 .
|| Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!
||
|| Jenny's new site: What they Don't Tell You About Diabetes
|| http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/
||
|| Jenny's Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures
|| http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/
||
|| Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
|| Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm
||
||
|| "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
|| news:[email hidden]...
||| Cubit wrote:
||||| Great stuff. I felt the summary probably covered everything I
||||| needed, but I bought a copy anyway, just in case the summary
||||| webpage goes away.
|||||
||||| Amazon used books were too pricey, but I found a hardback copy on
||||| eBay for $3.50 plus $2 shipping.
|||||
||||| my ended eBay purchase: http://tinyurl.com/6ny8e
|||||
||||| I'm concerned that I too spend too much time focusing on my diet.
||||| Maybe that will change, when I'm no longer restricting my calories
||||| to a 1400 per day average. Someday, 1600 per day should be much
||||| more comfortable.
|||||
|||
||| Keep in mind that what is reported in that book is just one study
||| and what it reports, while certainly interesting, shouldn't be
||| taken as gospel truth. I personally feel that if I don't put
||| considerable focus on my diet (i.e., what & how much I eat) on a
||| constant basis that I will just drift back to 367 lbs or die on the
||| way. I think that's just the way it is for me.
|||
||| More research needs to be done along the lines of what's in this
||| book. I'm going to buy a copy, too.
|||
|||
|||||
||||| "Ignoramus13725" <[email hidden]> wrote in
||||| message news:[email hidden]...
|||||| I am reading a book _Keeping it Off_ by Robert Colvin and Susan
|||||| Olson. This is an old book from 1985, I bought it used from
|||||| Amazon.
||||||
|||||| The book is excellent and a summary of it is available at
||||||
|||||| http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/success.htm
||||||
|||||| The book is a great read and I highly recommend it. It describes
|||||| what
|||||| is common amongst successful maintainers, which are defined as
|||||| people who
||||||
|||||| - lost over 20% of body weight
|||||| - kept it off for 2 years
|||||| - are not more than 5 lbs away from their lowest weight
||||||
|||||| The discuss the traits amongst those successful people, how they
|||||| think about weight loss, what they do, what they do not do etc.
||||||
|||||| There are very few books about weight maintenance, probably
|||||| because so few people can get to the point where they need to
|||||| maintain weight,
|||||| and even fewer of them actually maintain the loss. According to
|||||| authors, only 2% of those who started dieting can maintain
|||||| successfully for 2 years.
||||||
|||||| Unfortunately, the authors are psychologists, and looked at those
|||||| successful dieters from only psychological point of view. (I am
|||||| not done with the book yet). I wish they tried to look at the
|||||| somatic differences, if any, between successful and unsuccessful
|||||| dieters.
||||||
|||||| It also does not do a good enough job at comparing those
|||||| successful people with controls who have not managed to be as
|||||| successful. So, they could fall into a trap of describing their
|||||| common traits that did not make a difference. Both of them had
|||||| prior clinical
|||||| experience with "treating" obese dieters, with little (average)
|||||| success, so,
|||||| hopefully, they could detect those success traits based on their
|||||| experience.
||||||
|||||| All in all, it is a great common sense book that describes what
|||||| works.
||||||
|||||| The great majority of maintainers lost weight on their own, not
|||||| on any sort of commercial programs. All of them had an epiphany
|||||| at some point, which has been my experience exactly. They are
|||||| all very aware of their current weight and they actively manage
|||||| it. Again, my experience. They moved away from food obsessions
|||||| and food takes little place in their life, which I cannot say
|||||| yet about myself, although it
|||||| has been getting a tad better later.
||||||
||||||
|||||| i

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dr. Taller used blood tests to confirm compliance (or not) in his high

fat

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

low carb patients. He claimed that *all* of his complying patients lost
weight. He said that those eating such a diet bottom out at 11% body

fat.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He used safflower oil for much of the fat in his diets. This encourages

me

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to believe that any type of fat will work. Each of the high fat

proponents

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

seems to pick a different fat source for their theory.

Any references?

Dr. Herman Taller wrote "Calories Don't Count" in 1961.

Bruce Fife's books push coconut oil.

I have forgotten the name of the guy touting Macadamia nut oil.

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What does a set point do to your body -- if you lost to a point below your
set point, will you just be hungry or will you just have appetite, no

matter

Quoted message said:

what kind of food you're eating? If I had a set point, I think it is
somehow wired into my soul because I just like to eat.

The set-point is just the weight your body tries to aim for. If you're above
it, you feel less hungry and get satiated with less food. If you're bellow
it, you feel hungry, satiate less quickly and crave calorie dense food. The
appetite is still bounded (i.e., you will eventually feel satiated), but it
will push you into eating more calories than you need to maintain. That's
just part of the natural weight regulation system. That's why people who
diet bellow their natural weight have a hellish time with hunger, while
people who are very obese can lose their first pounds very easily with
little hunger (as long as they don't starve themselves). Your set-point is
supposed to remain pretty stable, though some things can change it over time
(heavy exercising, drugs, menopause, smoking, hormones...).
Of course, the fineprint of the set-point issue is that it is not aware of
fashion, personnal preferences or even insurance companies policies (bmi).
Some people just have a high set-point, and a natural weight at a bmi of 28
for instance. But if they just eat intuitively, they will remain at that
weight, instead of moving up the scale. One theory on the increased rate of
obesity, and especially of super-obesity, is that many naturally heavy
people have been pushed on a diet bellow their natural weight, resulting in
a lot of yo-yo and moving up the weight scale. There an egg and chicken
problem with diets and obesity, each tends to feed the other.