Re: John Kerry: Nice wheels

(Qui si parla Campagnolo ) said:

Mark-<< Well, other than the fact he WAS a fighter pilot >><BR><BR>

c'mon mark, I think ya gotta take a look at what he did, with what unit, where.
There were 'Fighter Pilots' in the USN when I was in that did everything they
could to stay on the east coast to stay outta the war of the time..VietNam.
Then a few east cost CVs went to VietNam..ooopss..lots of them turned in their
wings.

I agree that his service in the NG didn't make him anyone's "war
hero". But his service was quite legitimate - he wasn't the only one
who rode out the Vietnam war in the NG.

However I wouldn't suggest for a minute that the NG fighter pilots who
don't make it into actual combat aren't serving their country. It's
still a dangerous occupation - I'd suspect the mortality rate for a
fighter pilot in the US was as high as for the average soldier
deployed in Vietnam (only a guess - forgive me if I'm off by an order
of magnitude)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Mark Hickey said:

(Qui si parla Campagnolo ) said:

Mark-<< Well, other than the fact he WAS a fighter pilot >><BR><BR>

c'mon mark, I think ya gotta take a look at what he did, with what unit, where.
There were 'Fighter Pilots' in the USN when I was in that did everything they
could to stay on the east coast to stay outta the war of the time..VietNam.
Then a few east cost CVs went to VietNam..ooopss..lots of them turned in their
wings.

I agree that his service in the NG didn't make him anyone's "war
hero". But his service was quite legitimate - he wasn't the only one
who rode out the Vietnam war in the NG.

However I wouldn't suggest for a minute that the NG fighter pilots who
don't make it into actual combat aren't serving their country. It's
still a dangerous occupation - I'd suspect the mortality rate for a
fighter pilot in the US was as high as for the average soldier
deployed in Vietnam (only a guess - forgive me if I'm off by an order
of magnitude)

Moreover, he was a pilot at the end of the war
when we were reducing our troop deployment to
Vietnam. We had a surplus of people in all
branches and National Guard units were not at the
top of the list for training dollars.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

mark-<< I agree that his service in the NG didn't make him anyone's "war
hero". But his service was quite legitimate - he wasn't the only one
who rode out the Vietnam war in the NG. >><BR><BR>

I disaggre with your characterzation as 'legitimate'. He was there, in a state
sponsored F-102 unit, supplimenting Air Defense Command, that had a high
probability of never seeing any sort of conflict. he and his Dad knew that.

I would see it as legitimate if he joined the USAF or USN. He obviously had the
skills to be a pilot.

Mark<< I'd suspect the mortality rate for a
fighter pilot in the US was as high as for the average soldier
deployed in Vietnam (only a guess - forgive me if I'm off by an order
of magnitude) >><BR><BR>

In some cases higher as some pilots were subjected to combat, people shooting
at them, more frequently, sometimes 50 or 60 times per a line period of 3-4
months. BUT GWB knew he wouldn't go into combat if he were in the Air Guard
flying F-102s. He choose that path intentionally.

Flying fighters is risky, but there is risky and risky. The airwing onboard
some CVs in the late 60s lost 40% of the aircraft onboard. I doubt GWBs unit
lost anybody as they defended Texas.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

scott-<< Moreover, he was a pilot at the end of the war
when we were reducing our troop deployment to
Vietnam. We had a surplus of people in all
branches and National Guard units were not at the
top of the list for training dollars. >><BR><BR>

Not reducing the airwar tho at this time. It was felt that bombing would bring
the North to the table, which it did.

I knew many people that flew many combat missions in the early 70s....many CVs
were still deploying, lots of guys getting shot down.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

(Qui si parla Campagnolo ) said:

In some cases higher as some pilots were subjected to combat, people shooting
at them, more frequently, sometimes 50 or 60 times per a line period of 3-4
months. BUT GWB knew he wouldn't go into combat if he were in the Air Guard
flying F-102s. He choose that path intentionally.

Flying fighters is risky, but there is risky and risky. The airwing onboard
some CVs in the late 60s lost 40% of the aircraft onboard. I doubt GWBs unit
lost anybody as they defended Texas.

Hey, I agree that there's no comparison between losses between combat
units and NG units. My point was that flying fighters any time,
anywhere is fairly dangerous business. My point was that if GWB was
really afraid of danger, he wouldn't have chosen to fly fighters (or
run for president for that matter).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Quoted message said:

From: Mark Hickey

(Vecchio wrote):

Quoted message said:

BUT GWB knew he wouldn't go into combat if he were in the Air Guard

Quoted message said:

flying F-102s. He choose that path intentionally.

(M.H. replied):

Quoted message said:

My point was that flying fighters any time,
anywhere is fairly dangerous business. My point was that if GWB was
really afraid of danger, he wouldn't have chosen to fly fighters (or
run for president for that matter).

The Guard assignment was fruitful. Kept him out of the war but some buy the
"fighter pilot" credential.

History is so soon forgotten. There was a lot of hatred being passed around
back in the 60's and 70's and some of the strongest was held by combat vets for
Guard personnel because they got to wear the uniform but didn't have to pay the
price-- as a matter of fact, were saved from combat by political pull and/or
whatever else it took to get into the Guard. IOW, in some sort of imaginary
parallel situation to today in the 60's and well beyond, no non-combat Guard
pilot would have landed on a USN carrier for a photo op. Today, Bush apparently
has credibility. Or maybe that's just the presentation of the
conservative-owned and controlled media.

I don't doubt that Shrub was coached all the way through, including the value
of surviving whatever flying he actually did. Helps to have a father who knows
the ropes, no? "No old, bold Guard fliers"?

I can see where being somewhat of a chicken [censored] would be an asset for a pilot,
especially one in a non-combat role. --TP