Re: Is oily fish really healthy?

"Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Again this myth of high pork consumption in Okinawa pops up. According to
the Okinawan centenarian study the long-lived Okinawan elders eat _very_
_little_ any meat, including pork. Their main sources of protein are fish
and soy products. This has been discussed previously in sci.med.nutrition
and I have presented data and references about this.

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/food_in_china.html

"And what do Okinawans eat? The main meat of the diet is pork, and not
the lean cuts only. Okinawan cuisine, according to gerontologist
Kazuhiko Taira, "is very healthy-and very, very greasy," in a 1996
article that appeared in Health Magazine. And the whole pig is
eaten-everything from "tails to nails." Local menus offer boiled pigs
feet, entrail soup and shredded ears. Pork is cooked in a mixture of
soy sauce, ginger, kelp and small amounts of sugar, then sliced and
chopped up for stir fry dishes. Okinawans eat about 100 grams of meat
per day-compared to 70 in Japan and just over 20 in China-and at
least an equal amount of fish, for a total of about 200 grams per day,
compared to 280 grams per person per day of meat and fish in America.
Lard-not vegetable oil-is used in cooking."

1996.

Quoted message said:

I have read more than once that those conducting the Okinawan
centenarian study freely omitted information that didn't fit their
preconceived notions of a healthy diet. If that's true (obviously I
have no way to know for sure) then the study wouldn't be representative
of the true Okinawan diet.

'The traditional meat in Okinawa was pork but its consumption
was limited to ceremonial occasions. Thus, the Okinawan elders
have consumed very little meat over the course of their lives.'
http://www.okinawa-diet.com/news/20041214_cnn.html

'It's a similar story in Okinawa, where the island's youth are
increasingly succumbing to the lure of fast food. "The young
people are eating hamburgers and pork and don't do enough
exercise," Suzuki says. "Okinawan male life expectancy used
to be No. 1 in Japan. It started to decline 10 years ago, and
hit 26th out of 47 prefectures in the 2000 census. I expect it
to decline even further in the next census." The change is
almost entirely due to a much higher mortality among
younger people, according to Suzuki. "The elders are living
longer but the young are dying younger." If any further
evidence is needed of the dramatic effect a change in diet
can produce, Suzuki points to the example of an Okinawan
community in South America. Recruited to work on rubber
plantations, several hundred thousand islanders moved to
Brazil in the 1930s and switched to eating large amounts of
beef because it was widely available and cheap. According
to Suzuki, they now live an average 64 years-17 years lower
than the Okinawa average.
http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501030721/story4.html

pearl wrote:
: "Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: news:[email hidden]...
::: Again this myth of high pork consumption in Okinawa pops up.
::: According to the Okinawan centenarian study the long-lived Okinawan
::: elders eat _very little_ any meat, including pork. Their main
::: sources of protein are fish and soy products. This has been
::: discussed previously in sci.med.nutrition and I have presented data
::: and references about this.
::
:: http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/food_in_china.html
::
:: "And what do Okinawans eat? The main meat of the diet is pork, and
:: not the lean cuts only.

And you think, Max, that the web pages of Weston A. Price is a reliable
source of information? My source is The Okinawa Program written by the
Okinawa centenarian study lead researchers. Read the book and you'll know
more.

: 'The traditional meat in Okinawa was pork but its consumption
: was limited to ceremonial occasions. Thus, the Okinawan elders
: have consumed very little meat over the course of their lives.'
: http://www.okinawa-diet.com/news/20041214_cnn.html
:
: 'It's a similar story in Okinawa, where the island's youth are
: increasingly succumbing to the lure of fast food. "The young
: people are eating hamburgers and pork and don't do enough
: exercise," Suzuki says. "Okinawan male life expectancy used
: to be No. 1 in Japan. It started to decline 10 years ago, and
: hit 26th out of 47 prefectures in the 2000 census. I expect it
: to decline even further in the next census." The change is
: almost entirely due to a much higher mortality among
: younger people, according to Suzuki. "The elders are living
: longer but the young are dying younger." If any further
: evidence is needed of the dramatic effect a change in diet
: can produce, Suzuki points to the example of an Okinawan
: community in South America. Recruited to work on rubber
: plantations, several hundred thousand islanders moved to
: Brazil in the 1930s and switched to eating large amounts of
: beef because it was widely available and cheap. According
: to Suzuki, they now live an average 64 years-17 years lower
: than the Okinawa average.
: http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501030721/story4.html

That is correct, Pearl. The diet of Okinawan elders is well documented.
Younger generations eat more meat but their health is deteriorating as a
result.

--
Juhana

Quoted message said:

And you think, Max, that the web pages of Weston A. Price is a reliable
source of information? My source is The Okinawa Program written by the
Okinawa centenarian study lead researchers. Read the book and you'll know
more.

Show everyone here one shred of evidence that the Weston Price
Foundation has any reason to mislead the public. The paragraph I
posted says that the Okinawans over 100 years of age ate, *ON AVERAGE*,
200 grams of meat per day. That's hardly occasional.

And thanks for posting that paragraph, pearl. Another glaring example
of your vegan agenda. It delicately dances around the fact that young
Okinawans are now eating FAST FOOD, and blatantly ignores the fact that
they're eating highly refined junk food and rancid / trans fats. From
that, you readily place the blame on all meat. It's FAR more likely
that the reason is the refined PLANT FOODS. French fries, bread,
frying oil, high fructose corn syrup... basically the usual list of
cheap carbs.

Furthermore, are we REALLY to believe that one reason for the longevity
of Okinawans is canola oil!?! It was only invented a few decades ago.
Anyone that believes canola oil gives those people long life needs to
be added to the "kook list" fast! To come to such an obviously
incorrect conclusion means the "researchers" are desperate to prove
their current position rather than report facts. The book also jumps
all over the place on recommendations of amounts of soy and how to
prepare it.

I think a decent, open-minded review of the book should be read by
anyone considering to believe the Okinawan Centenarian Study. See
here:

http://www.notmilk.com/forum/595.html

"After three hundred pages of reading about the Okinawa way,
the authors turn a halfway decent study into a typical
Atkins-style menu book.

Chapter Ten is titled "Four Weeks to Everlasting Health,"
and the day-by-day menus contradict everything the authors
may have learned, and their cumulative lack of wisdom makes
me sick to my stomach.

On the first day, the good doctors would have you eat
toasted waffles with maple syrup, bagels with cream cheese,
and vanilla ice cream. On day 2, they add yogurt to their
dairy-laced menu. What's with these guys? Before the week
ends, one is eating skim milk, Manhattan clam chowder,
Caesar salad, potatoes with sour cream, and creamed peaches."

Yum! I'll bet that's EXACTLY what the Okinawans eat. Puh-Leeze.

Max.

"Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And thanks for posting that paragraph, pearl. Another glaring example
of your vegan agenda. It delicately dances around the fact that young
Okinawans are now eating FAST FOOD, and blatantly ignores the fact that
they're eating highly refined junk food and rancid / trans fats. From
that, you readily place the blame on all meat. It's FAR more likely
that the reason is the refined PLANT FOODS. French fries, bread,
frying oil, high fructose corn syrup... basically the usual list of
cheap carbs.

That you delicately danced around and blatantly ignored
the following is another glaring example of your agenda.

'The traditional meat in Okinawa was pork but its consumption
was limited to ceremonial occasions. Thus, the Okinawan elders
have consumed very little meat over the course of their lives.'
http://www.okinawa-diet.com/news/20041214_cnn.html

'Okinawan male life expectancy used to be No. 1 in Japan.'

Were Japanese elsewhere then eating refined and processed
plant foods, trans fats, etc? Was the meat eaten in the rest
of Japan "rancid"; or is it that they were eating more of it?

'If any further evidence is needed of the dramatic effect a
change in diet can produce, Suzuki points to the example
of an Okinawan community in South America. Recruited
to work on rubber plantations, several hundred thousand
islanders moved to Brazil in the 1930s and switched to
eating large amounts of beef because it was widely available
and cheap. According to Suzuki, they now live an average
64 years- 17 years lower than the Okinawa average.'
http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501030721/story4.html

Were they eating refined and processed junk foods?

"pearl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And thanks for posting that paragraph, pearl. Another glaring example
of your vegan agenda. It delicately dances around the fact that young
Okinawans are now eating FAST FOOD, and blatantly ignores the fact that
they're eating highly refined junk food and rancid / trans fats. From
that, you readily place the blame on all meat. It's FAR more likely
that the reason is the refined PLANT FOODS. French fries, bread,
frying oil, high fructose corn syrup... basically the usual list of
cheap carbs.

That you delicately danced around and blatantly ignored
the following is another glaring example of your agenda.

'The traditional meat in Okinawa was pork but its consumption
was limited to ceremonial occasions. Thus, the Okinawan elders
have consumed very little meat over the course of their lives.'
http://www.okinawa-diet.com/news/20041214_cnn.html

'Okinawan male life expectancy used to be No. 1 in Japan.'

Were Japanese elsewhere then eating refined and processed
plant foods, trans fats, etc? Was the meat eaten in the rest
of Japan "rancid"; or is it that they were eating more of it?

'If any further evidence is needed of the dramatic effect a
change in diet can produce, Suzuki points to the example
of an Okinawan community in South America. Recruited
to work on rubber plantations, several hundred thousand
islanders moved to Brazil in the 1930s and switched to
eating large amounts of beef because it was widely available
and cheap. According to Suzuki, they now live an average
64 years- 17 years lower than the Okinawa average.'
http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501030721/story4.html

Were they eating refined and processed junk foods?

Like it or not,
when all else is equal, vegans have an average life expectancy 20 years
shorter than non vegans.

This can be further exacerbated by adding certain oils such as canola and
even further thru hydrogenation.
Add plenty of sugar and you have poisoned yourself.

"vernon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"pearl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And thanks for posting that paragraph, pearl. Another glaring example
of your vegan agenda. It delicately dances around the fact that young
Okinawans are now eating FAST FOOD, and blatantly ignores the fact that
they're eating highly refined junk food and rancid / trans fats. From
that, you readily place the blame on all meat. It's FAR more likely
that the reason is the refined PLANT FOODS. French fries, bread,
frying oil, high fructose corn syrup... basically the usual list of
cheap carbs.

That you delicately danced around and blatantly ignored
the following is another glaring example of your agenda.

'The traditional meat in Okinawa was pork but its consumption
was limited to ceremonial occasions. Thus, the Okinawan elders
have consumed very little meat over the course of their lives.'
http://www.okinawa-diet.com/news/20041214_cnn.html

'Okinawan male life expectancy used to be No. 1 in Japan.'

Were Japanese elsewhere then eating refined and processed
plant foods, trans fats, etc? Was the meat eaten in the rest
of Japan "rancid"; or is it that they were eating more of it?

'If any further evidence is needed of the dramatic effect a
change in diet can produce, Suzuki points to the example
of an Okinawan community in South America. Recruited
to work on rubber plantations, several hundred thousand
islanders moved to Brazil in the 1930s and switched to
eating large amounts of beef because it was widely available
and cheap. According to Suzuki, they now live an average
64 years- 17 years lower than the Okinawa average.'
http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501030721/story4.html

Were they eating refined and processed junk foods?

Like it or not,
when all else is equal, vegans have an average life expectancy 20 years
shorter than non vegans.

Let's see you back that claim with evidence.

Quoted message said:

This can be further exacerbated by adding certain oils such as canola and
even further thru hydrogenation.
Add plenty of sugar and you have poisoned yourself.

pearl said:

"Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Again this myth of high pork consumption in Okinawa pops up. According to
the Okinawan centenarian study the long-lived Okinawan elders eat _very_
_little_ any meat, including pork. Their main sources of protein are fish
and soy products. This has been discussed previously in sci.med.nutrition
and I have presented data and references about this.

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/food_in_china.html

"And what do Okinawans eat? The main meat of the diet is pork, and not
the lean cuts only. Okinawan cuisine, according to gerontologist
Kazuhiko Taira, "is very healthy-and very, very greasy," in a 1996
article that appeared in Health Magazine. And the whole pig is
eaten-everything from "tails to nails." Local menus offer boiled pigs
feet, entrail soup and shredded ears. Pork is cooked in a mixture of
soy sauce, ginger, kelp and small amounts of sugar, then sliced and
chopped up for stir fry dishes. Okinawans eat about 100 grams of meat
per day-compared to 70 in Japan and just over 20 in China-and at
least an equal amount of fish, for a total of about 200 grams per day,
compared to 280 grams per person per day of meat and fish in America.
Lard-not vegetable oil-is used in cooking."

1996.

Logical fallacy: argumentum ad novitatem.

You have NO basis for thinking the diet of Okinawan
elderly has changed significantly in 10 years.

Hey, you stupid [censored]: how old is that "Hladek et al."
study you regularly MIS-cite?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have read more than once that those conducting the Okinawan
centenarian study freely omitted information that didn't fit their
preconceived notions of a healthy diet. If that's true (obviously I
have no way to know for sure) then the study wouldn't be representative
of the true Okinawan diet.

'The traditional meat in Okinawa was pork but its consumption
was limited to ceremonial occasions. Thus, the Okinawan elders
have consumed very little meat over the course of their lives.'
http://www.okinawa-diet.com/news/20041214_cnn.html

A typically unrepresentative, highly selective citation.

"Leif Erikson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

pearl said:

"Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>Again this myth of high pork consumption in Okinawa pops up. According to
>the Okinawan centenarian study the long-lived Okinawan elders eat _very_
>_little_ any meat, including pork. Their main sources of protein are fish
>and soy products. This has been discussed previously in sci.med.nutrition
>and I have presented data and references about this.

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/food_in_china.html

"And what do Okinawans eat? The main meat of the diet is pork, and not
the lean cuts only. Okinawan cuisine, according to gerontologist
Kazuhiko Taira, "is very healthy-and very, very greasy," in a 1996
article that appeared in Health Magazine. And the whole pig is
eaten-everything from "tails to nails." Local menus offer boiled pigs
feet, entrail soup and shredded ears. Pork is cooked in a mixture of
soy sauce, ginger, kelp and small amounts of sugar, then sliced and
chopped up for stir fry dishes. Okinawans eat about 100 grams of meat
per day-compared to 70 in Japan and just over 20 in China-and at
least an equal amount of fish, for a total of about 200 grams per day,
compared to 280 grams per person per day of meat and fish in America.
Lard-not vegetable oil-is used in cooking."

1996.

Logical fallacy: argumentum ad novitatem.

How is diet circa 1996 relevant to their traditional ways?

Quoted message said:

You have NO basis for thinking the diet of Okinawan
elderly has changed significantly in 10 years.

Hey, you stupid [censored]:

Projection.

The Socialised Psychopath or Sociopath
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm

Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment.
http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html

Quoted message said:

how old is that "Hladek et al." study

It's from 1999. And?

Quoted message said:

you regularly MIS-cite?

Liar.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have read more than once that those conducting the Okinawan
centenarian study freely omitted information that didn't fit their
preconceived notions of a healthy diet. If that's true (obviously I
have no way to know for sure) then the study wouldn't be representative
of the true Okinawan diet.

'The traditional meat in Okinawa was pork but its consumption
was limited to ceremonial occasions. Thus, the Okinawan elders
have consumed very little meat over the course of their lives.'
http://www.okinawa-diet.com/news/20041214_cnn.html

A typically unrepresentative, highly selective citation.

'In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be
required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media
or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable,
or even deny that statements made by government or other
authorities have any meaning or relevance.
....'
http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html

Quoted message said:

Were Japanese elsewhere then eating refined and processed
plant foods, trans fats, etc?

Yup. White rice. 154 pounds per person per year. A Taste of Japan,
Thompson Learning, 1993. That's 154 pounds per year of empty calories.

I also suspect you already know the answer to your question, you're
just hoping I don't. It says so right in the article you posted:

"In Okinawa, researchers found their subjects ate about 20% fewer
calories than the Japanese average."
http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501030721/story3.html

In case you didn't know, one of the current theories is that caloric
restriction may hold a major key in longevity.

In the future, try to better educate yourself on your own side of the
argument before debating someone.

Quoted message said:

Were they eating refined and processed junk foods?

What do you mean "were" ? That quote from Suzuki is yet another
example of the vegan agenda. It states that the islanders moved to
Brazil in the 1930's but then it says "According to Suzuki, they now
live an average 64 years- 17 years lower than the Okinawa average.' "
Let me emphasize the word *NOW*. This wasn't even a thinly veiled
attempt to discredit meat. The paragraph makes the reader think that
the people back in the 1930s only lived 64 years by combining 2
different sets of data; the fact that the islanders moved to Brazil and
the fact that some set of people in Brazil now only live an average of
64 years. Are we to believe that Suzuki is talking about islanders who
moved to Brazil as soon as they were born in 1939? Oh wait, that would
make them *67* years old. And how would an infant work in a rubber
plantation? Are we to believe that the islanders who moved to Brazil
are only living to 64? Then why does Suzuki use the word "NOW"?
Let's assume an average age of 20 when the islanders moved to Brazil
in the 1930's. How could they possibly *NOW* only be living to 64?
If they're just *NOW* dying, that'd make them an average of 91.
Once again, I suggest you try a little logic.

So your question should be *ARE* they eating refined and processed junk
foods? My answer... I have no idea, but probably. You said yourself
the Okinawan youth are. It wouldn't be a stretch at all to assume
those in Brazil are making the same choices, given the availability of
junk food there.

The bottom line is, you have no evidence of WHAT exactly those
immigrants were eating, just someone's opinion that they were eating
more meat... and once again you don't provide a stitch of evidence to
show what *kind* of meat they were eating, if, in fact, they WERE
eating more meat at all.

Max.

"pearl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"vernon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"pearl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

> And thanks for posting that paragraph, pearl. Another glaring example
> of your vegan agenda. It delicately dances around the fact that young
> Okinawans are now eating FAST FOOD, and blatantly ignores the fact
> that
> they're eating highly refined junk food and rancid / trans fats. From
> that, you readily place the blame on all meat. It's FAR more likely
> that the reason is the refined PLANT FOODS. French fries, bread,
> frying oil, high fructose corn syrup... basically the usual list of
> cheap carbs.

That you delicately danced around and blatantly ignored
the following is another glaring example of your agenda.

'The traditional meat in Okinawa was pork but its consumption
was limited to ceremonial occasions. Thus, the Okinawan elders
have consumed very little meat over the course of their lives.'
http://www.okinawa-diet.com/news/20041214_cnn.html

'Okinawan male life expectancy used to be No. 1 in Japan.'

Were Japanese elsewhere then eating refined and processed
plant foods, trans fats, etc? Was the meat eaten in the rest
of Japan "rancid"; or is it that they were eating more of it?

'If any further evidence is needed of the dramatic effect a
change in diet can produce, Suzuki points to the example
of an Okinawan community in South America. Recruited
to work on rubber plantations, several hundred thousand
islanders moved to Brazil in the 1930s and switched to
eating large amounts of beef because it was widely available
and cheap. According to Suzuki, they now live an average
64 years- 17 years lower than the Okinawa average.'
http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501030721/story4.html

Were they eating refined and processed junk foods?

Like it or not,
when all else is equal, vegans have an average life expectancy 20 years
shorter than non vegans.

Let's see you back that claim with evidence.

Quit your religion and get an education. Simple

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This can be further exacerbated by adding certain oils such as canola and
even further thru hydrogenation.
Add plenty of sugar and you have poisoned yourself.

"Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Were Japanese elsewhere then eating refined and processed
plant foods, trans fats, etc?

Yup. White rice. 154 pounds per person per year. A Taste of Japan,
Thompson Learning, 1993. That's 154 pounds per year of empty calories.

And the Okinawans?

Quoted message said:

I also suspect you already know the answer to your question, you're
just hoping I don't. It says so right in the article you posted:

"In Okinawa, researchers found their subjects ate about 20% fewer
calories than the Japanese average."
http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501030721/story3.html

And how much meat were the Japanese elsewhere eating?

Quoted message said:

In case you didn't know, one of the current theories is that caloric
restriction may hold a major key in longevity.

In the future, try to better educate yourself on your own side of the
argument before debating someone.

Quoted message said:

Were they eating refined and processed junk foods?

What do you mean "were" ? That quote from Suzuki is yet another
example of the vegan agenda. It states that the islanders moved to
Brazil in the 1930's but then it says "According to Suzuki, they now
live an average 64 years- 17 years lower than the Okinawa average.' "
Let me emphasize the word *NOW*. This wasn't even a thinly veiled
attempt to discredit meat. The paragraph makes the reader think that
the people back in the 1930s only lived 64 years by combining 2
different sets of data; the fact that the islanders moved to Brazil and
the fact that some set of people in Brazil now only live an average of
64 years. Are we to believe that Suzuki is talking about islanders who
moved to Brazil as soon as they were born in 1939? Oh wait, that would
make them *67* years old. And how would an infant work in a rubber
plantation? Are we to believe that the islanders who moved to Brazil
are only living to 64? Then why does Suzuki use the word "NOW"?
Let's assume an average age of 20 when the islanders moved to Brazil
in the 1930's. How could they possibly *NOW* only be living to 64?
If they're just *NOW* dying, that'd make them an average of 91.
Once again, I suggest you try a little logic.

Those who grew up there are dying an average 17 years younger.

Quoted message said:

So your question should be *ARE* they eating refined and processed junk
foods?

I was referring to those who have already died.

Quoted message said:

My answer... I have no idea, but probably.

Why don't you try to find out. It's your argument.

Quoted message said:

You said yourself
the Okinawan youth are. It wouldn't be a stretch at all to assume
those in Brazil are making the same choices, given the availability of
junk food there.

If they have been, since when?

Quoted message said:

The bottom line is, you have no evidence of WHAT exactly those
immigrants were eating, just someone's opinion that they were eating
more meat... and once again you don't provide a stitch of evidence to
show what *kind* of meat they were eating, if, in fact, they WERE
eating more meat at all.

Beef,- lots of it,- according to a researcher. Quit squirming.

"vernon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"pearl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"vernon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Like it or not,
when all else is equal, vegans have an average life expectancy 20 years
shorter than non vegans.

Let's see you back that claim with evidence.

Quit your religion and get an education. Simple

That's not evidence.

That you make unsupported claims is noted.

Quoted message said:

And the Okinawans?

Whatever they ate, they ate 20% less of it.

By the way, you never answered the question about canola oil. The book
seems to think that's one of the things giving the Okinawans great
health. Also, you never addressed how the book could study Okinawans
and then recommend waffles, potatoes and ice cream. Do you think
that's a consistent position for the "researchers?"

Quoted message said:

Those who grew up there are dying an average 17 years younger.

My goodness you're dense. If they GREW UP there, then, like Suzuki
said, they died recently, giving them PLENTY of opportunity to eat
refined foods. I've been to South America myself. The food there is
far less than perfect. There's nearly as much refined junk food
available there as in the US, and with far less stringent cleanliness
requirements. If you think Brazilians are eating a pristine diet of
grass fed beef and free roaming chicken products, you live in quite a
fantasy world.

Quoted message said:

Beef,- lots of it,- according to a researcher

As you're so fond of saying... show us the data. Just because some
vegan "researcher" says it doesn't make it so. You cross-posted this
[censored] to a scientific news group. Use the science to support your case.
Hearsay is not evidence.

Max.

"Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And the Okinawans?

Whatever they ate, they ate 20% less of it.

We know they ate hardly any meat..

Quoted message said:

By the way, you never answered the question about canola oil. The book
seems to think that's one of the things giving the Okinawans great
health. Also, you never addressed how the book could study Okinawans
and then recommend waffles, potatoes and ice cream. Do you think
that's a consistent position for the "researchers?"

I haven't read the book, but I read here;

'The right carbs are "whole" foods, or foods in their natural state,
such as vegetables, fruits, whole grains and other unprocessed foods.
These foods tend to have very low insulin scores, are low in caloric
density, and are your biggest allies in your struggle to control your
weight.

Highly processed foods (white bread, bakery goods, sweets, etc.)
are the biggest insulin culprits and are definitely the wrong carbs to
eat in abundance.
...'
http://www.okinawa-diet.com/okinawa_diet/okinawa_diet_details.html

Have you read the book, max?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Those who grew up there are dying an average 17 years younger.

My goodness you're dense. If they GREW UP there, then, like Suzuki
said, they died recently, giving them PLENTY of opportunity to eat
refined foods.

We *know* that they ate plenty of beef.

Quoted message said:

I've been to South America myself. The food there is
far less than perfect. There's nearly as much refined junk food
available there as in the US, and with far less stringent cleanliness
requirements. If you think Brazilians are eating a pristine diet of
grass fed beef and free roaming chicken products, you live in quite a
fantasy world.

Where? What? We're talking about rubber plantation workers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Beef,- lots of it,- according to a researcher

As you're so fond of saying... show us the data. Just because some
vegan "researcher"

They are not vegan.

Quoted message said:

says it doesn't make it so.

Says you.

Quoted message said:

You cross-posted this
[censored] to a scientific news group. Use the science to support your case.
Hearsay is not evidence.

Max.

So provide some evidence. max.

I think we're done. Anyone reading this thread (if there *is* anyone)
will be able to see that you are unable to provide even a shred of
clear evidence of your position. You defend the book's horrible food
recommendations that in no way reflect the diets of the Okinawans in
the study. You assume that rubber plantation workers are still, after
all these years, working in the same place. You assume, with no real
data, that they're eating only more beef and that the additional beef
MUST be the reason they're dying younger. You assume that they're not
eating any refined foods or junk food, despite the high availability of
it. You dodge direct questions. You demand evidence from others
(vernon) while not providing the evidence asked of you, making you a
hypocrite.

Basically, you assume too much and give too little data to support such
a ridiculous position. You are making extraordinary claims, which
require extraordinary evidence. The evidence you've provided is
piecemealed opinions at best. There also seems to be few, if any
people in this thread that agree with your position, so I feel my job
here is done. Once again, you've been discredited.

Good day,
Max.

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

pearl wrote:
: "Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: news:[email hidden]...
::: Again this myth of high pork consumption in Okinawa pops up.
::: According to the Okinawan centenarian study the long-lived Okinawan
::: elders eat _very little_ any meat, including pork. Their main
::: sources of protein are fish and soy products. This has been
::: discussed previously in sci.med.nutrition and I have presented data
::: and references about this.
::
:: http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/food_in_china.html
::
:: "And what do Okinawans eat? The main meat of the diet is pork, and
:: not the lean cuts only.

And you think, Max, that the web pages of Weston A. Price is a reliable
source of information? My source is The Okinawa Program written by the
Okinawa centenarian study lead researchers. Read the book and you'll know
more.

: 'The traditional meat in Okinawa was pork but its consumption
: was limited to ceremonial occasions. Thus, the Okinawan elders
: have consumed very little meat over the course of their lives.'
: http://www.okinawa-diet.com/news/20041214_cnn.html
:
: 'It's a similar story in Okinawa, where the island's youth are
: increasingly succumbing to the lure of fast food. "The young
: people are eating hamburgers and pork and don't do enough
: exercise," Suzuki says. "Okinawan male life expectancy used
: to be No. 1 in Japan. It started to decline 10 years ago, and
: hit 26th out of 47 prefectures in the 2000 census. I expect it
: to decline even further in the next census." The change is
: almost entirely due to a much higher mortality among
: younger people, according to Suzuki. "The elders are living
: longer but the young are dying younger." If any further
: evidence is needed of the dramatic effect a change in diet
: can produce, Suzuki points to the example of an Okinawan
: community in South America. Recruited to work on rubber
: plantations, several hundred thousand islanders moved to
: Brazil in the 1930s and switched to eating large amounts of
: beef because it was widely available and cheap. According
: to Suzuki, they now live an average 64 years-17 years lower
: than the Okinawa average.
: http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501030721/story4.html

That is correct, Pearl. The diet of Okinawan elders is well documented.
Younger generations eat more meat but their health is deteriorating as a
result.

Juhana, we've had this debate before. Nearly everything I found online,
including figures on per capita pork consumption in Okinawa, do not support
that Okinawans do not eat a diet high in pork. You cannot take a single book
and use it as gospel. Your argument is weak, sir.

Max C. said:

I think we're done. Anyone reading this thread (if there *is* anyone)
will be able to see that you are unable to provide even a shred of
clear evidence of your position.

Exactly. I've seen lesley do this for years.

Lesley isn't interested in learning. She is a dogmatic
true-believer who collapses into sophistry, because she
is trying to "prove" a point that she already believes.

I don't know how long you've been messing with her, but
in my case it's coming up on seven years. She's
ostensibly a "vegan", i.e., a (so-called) "ethical"
vegetarian. But her entire participation here is an
attempt to "prove" that man is biologically unsuited to
eat meat. That conclusion, which she can't demonstrate
anyway, has nothing to do with the ethics of meat
production and consumption. She has NOT ONCE produced
an argument discussing the ethics of meat. Instead,
she produces thousands of pages of citations from
articles and books she HAS NOT READ, all purporting to
show that in some practical sense, man "ought" not eat
meat.

Lesley is a foot masseuse (she calls it "reflexology"😉
in Cork, Ireland. She claims to have done "some study"
of both structural engineering and architecture, but
she has no university degree. She's a
counterculture-embracing nut. There's a lengthy list
of weird, irrational beliefs she holds, all documented
based on her participation here:

"veganism"
"inner earth beings"
"hollow earth"
that goofy patent for a MANUFACTURED globe
helium-inflated number(s) for feed:beef
rain forest destruction
Brazil's exports (based on *Argentina's* trade)
Stolen French flying saucer
Hulda Clarke's 'Zapper'
Foot massage (as cure-all)
Astrology
Numerology
Alien abduction
bestiality
Leprechauns
Channeling
Polar fountains
Sun gazing
Chemtrails
AIDS and ebola conspiracy theory
Crop circles
sexually aroused by violent ex-convicts
participation in skinhead subculture
the validity of online IQ tests
crackpot 9-11 conspiracy theories
Jeff Rense for "news"

.....
http://tinyurl.com/h0br
http://tinyurl.com/h0bl
http://tinyurl.com/v5p8
http://tinyurl.com/v5pf
http://tinyurl.com/mh5w
http://tinyurl.com/mh6h
http://tinyurl.com/mh6r
http://tinyurl.com/mh71
http://tinyurl.com/mh7a
http://tinyurl.com/mh7j
http://tinyurl.com/mh7p
http://tinyurl.com/v5jj
http://tinyurl.com/v5kd
http://tinyurl.com/v5l6
http://tinyurl.com/v5ft
http://tinyurl.com/v5fj
http://tinyurl.com/v5fp
http://tinyurl.com/v5ft
http://tinyurl.com/v5ga
http://tinyurl.com/v5gc
http://tinyurl.com/v5i2
http://tinyurl.com/v5gk
http://tinyurl.com/v5h1
http://tinyurl.com/v5h9

The one about "inner earth beings" is just a classic,
and tells you everything you need to know about just
what a crackpot you've been dealing with:
http://tinyurl.com/ax9bm In this weird screed, lesley
describes a "race" of superior beings allegedly living
under the dormant volcano Mt. Shasta in northern
California. Given that, none of her other weird
beliefs - "polar fountains", "chemtrails", etc. -
appears at all inconsistent.

Joe the Aroma wrote:
: "Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: news:[email hidden]...
:: pearl wrote:
::: "Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
::: news:[email hidden]...
::::: Again this myth of high pork consumption in Okinawa pops up.
::::: According to the Okinawan centenarian study the long-lived
::::: Okinawan elders eat _very little_ any meat, including pork. Their
::::: main sources of protein are fish and soy products. This has been
::::: discussed previously in sci.med.nutrition and I have presented
::::: data and references about this.
::::
:::: http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/food_in_china.html
::::
:::: "And what do Okinawans eat? The main meat of the diet is pork, and
:::: not the lean cuts only.
::
:: And you think, Max, that the web pages of Weston A. Price is a
:: reliable source of information? My source is The Okinawa Program
:: written by the Okinawa centenarian study lead researchers. Read the
:: book and you'll know more.
::
::: 'The traditional meat in Okinawa was pork but its consumption
::: was limited to ceremonial occasions. Thus, the Okinawan elders
::: have consumed very little meat over the course of their lives.'
::: http://www.okinawa-diet.com/news/20041214_cnn.html
:::
::: 'It's a similar story in Okinawa, where the island's youth are
::: increasingly succumbing to the lure of fast food. "The young
::: people are eating hamburgers and pork and don't do enough
::: exercise," Suzuki says. "Okinawan male life expectancy used
::: to be No. 1 in Japan. It started to decline 10 years ago, and
::: hit 26th out of 47 prefectures in the 2000 census. I expect it
::: to decline even further in the next census." The change is
::: almost entirely due to a much higher mortality among
::: younger people, according to Suzuki. "The elders are living
::: longer but the young are dying younger." If any further
::: evidence is needed of the dramatic effect a change in diet
::: can produce, Suzuki points to the example of an Okinawan
::: community in South America. Recruited to work on rubber
::: plantations, several hundred thousand islanders moved to
::: Brazil in the 1930s and switched to eating large amounts of
::: beef because it was widely available and cheap. According
::: to Suzuki, they now live an average 64 years-17 years lower
::: than the Okinawa average.
::: http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501030721/story4.html
::
:: That is correct, Pearl. The diet of Okinawan elders is well
:: documented. Younger generations eat more meat but their health is
:: deteriorating as a result.
:
: Juhana, we've had this debate before. Nearly everything I found
: online, including figures on per capita pork consumption in Okinawa,
: do not support that Okinawans do not eat a diet high in pork. You
: cannot take a single book and use it as gospel. Your argument is
: weak, sir.

Yes, we have had this unfortunate discussion before. Don't you realize that
I have the most authoritative and reliable source. It is important to
realize that The Okinawa Program book is not just any book. It is written by
the lead scientists of the Okinawan centenarian study. The book is full of
references to the centenarian study and to other scientific studies.
Okinawan centenarians have been a well researched group for at least 20
years and it is very unlikely that the knowledge of their diet would not be
accurate.

I am ready to admit that other Okinawans than centenarians may consume pork
much more. But it is important to realize that the long-lived Okinawans do
not consume a lot of pork (or any meat).

I am not interested to continue this kind of discussion anymore. Why don't
you just read the book. After you may decide yourself whether to believe to
the data presented by the researchers or not. It is an interesting book
anyway, and you may learn something new if you have an open mind.

--
Juhana

I've debated pearl off and on for several months now. I used to be
more concerned with presenting every little piece of info she asked
for, but when it became obvious that 1 - she wouldn't do the same in
return and 2 - 99% of the people on this board thinks she's a fruit
cake, I became less interested in working so hard.

Something else I've learned is to present my case in a precise, easy to
read manner. If I do so, those reading our debate will be able to come
to their own conclusions about who is right and wrong. Pearl
constantly stating or insinuating that she is right with no evidence to
support her really only helps me in the end. It discredits her in the
eyes of those reading our debate.

People are smart. If you give people logical information, they will
usually know how to process it. It doesn't take grand standing and
feather ruffling to convince someone you're right. It just takes
facts. Present the facts in an unbiased way, without adding to them,
or more importantly for pearl, *without taking away from them* and the
truth will be understood by the readers.

By the way, did you used to use the nick Rudy? Someone posted
something just like your reply here in a debate I had with pearl back
in 08/2005.

Max.