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Re: Inconsiderate bikers

Started by Mike Vandeman · · Last activity · 22 posts · 1,282 views

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rec.bicycles.soc
Published
7 August 2004
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14 August 2004
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Mike Vandeman
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  1. On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:48:20 -0600, "Monique Y. Mudama" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    ..On 2004-08-06, Mike Vandeman penned:
    ..>
    ..> You shouldn't have been driving. DUH!
    ..
    ..But Mikey, baby, what if that inattentive pedestrian had accidentally
    ..stepped on a snake? He could have hurt the poor creature!

    It's FAR more likely that a bicyclist will run over a snake. I have seen snakes
    killed by bikers, but never by hikers. The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  2. Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:48:20 -0600, "Monique Y. Mudama" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    .On 2004-08-06, Mike Vandeman penned:
    .>
    .> You shouldn't have been driving. DUH!
    .
    .But Mikey, baby, what if that inattentive pedestrian had accidentally
    .stepped on a snake? He could have hurt the poor creature!

    It's FAR more likely that a bicyclist will run over a snake. I have seen snakes
    killed by bikers, but never by hikers. The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.

    I watched 3 hikers kill a timber rattlesnake on a local trail this
    past June. When questioned about their motive, they claimed
    they were afraid it might have bitten someone. I have never seen
    a snake in the condition that you have described and I spend far
    more time on the trials than you ever will.

  3. Mike Vandeman said:

    The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    ===

    Now that's funny. If you really think a bicycle tire will *cut* a snake,
    either you're dreaming or you must think bicycles run on razor sharp
    tires. Hmm, maybe you're thinking of those Jello brand snakes instead. I
    doubt a snake would be even killed if run over by a bike.

    As a person who observes and maintain multi-use trails, I am very
    skeptical that biking is all that hard on the land. My personal
    observations are that the most damage occurs due to rainfall once a
    trail exists. So if you have a trail, it will or can erode due to rain.
    If there is a boost to that erosion due to some specific use, such as
    hikers, bikers or horsemen, I haven't observed it.

    I doubt you have either if you claim to have observed split snakes. IMO,
    this discussion is too important for someone to just make up whoppers.
    It ruins the entire discussion or at least makes the person with the
    claim irrelevent.

    -paul

  4. Paul Cassel said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    ===

    Now that's funny. If you really think a bicycle tire will *cut* a
    snake, either you're dreaming or you must think bicycles run on razor
    sharp tires. Hmm, maybe you're thinking of those Jello brand snakes
    instead. I doubt a snake would be even killed if run over by a bike.

    As a person who observes and maintain multi-use trails, I am very
    skeptical that biking is all that hard on the land. My personal
    observations are that the most damage occurs due to rainfall once a
    trail exists. So if you have a trail, it will or can erode due to
    rain. If there is a boost to that erosion due to some specific use,
    such as hikers, bikers or horsemen, I haven't observed it.

    I doubt you have either if you claim to have observed split snakes.
    IMO, this discussion is too important for someone to just make up
    whoppers. It ruins the entire discussion or at least makes the person
    with the claim irrelevent.

    This could serve as a syllabus for Mikey 101.

    Bill "tires roll; boots and hooves plant, twist and grind" S.

  5. On 7 Aug 2004 16:24:52 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:

    ..Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    ..> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:48:20 -0600, "Monique Y. Mudama" <[email hidden]>
    ..> wrote:
    ..>
    ..> .On 2004-08-06, Mike Vandeman penned:
    ..> .>
    ..> .> You shouldn't have been driving. DUH!
    ..> .
    ..> .But Mikey, baby, what if that inattentive pedestrian had accidentally
    ..> .stepped on a snake? He could have hurt the poor creature!
    ..>
    ..> It's FAR more likely that a bicyclist will run over a snake. I have seen snakes
    ..> killed by bikers, but never by hikers. The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    ..> two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    ..
    ..I watched 3 hikers kill a timber rattlesnake on a local trail this
    ..past June. When questioned about their motive, they claimed
    ..they were afraid it might have bitten someone. I have never seen
    ..a snake in the condition that you have described and I spend far
    ..more time on the trials than you ever will.

    Mountain bikers travel too fast to see ANYTHING small on the trail. No doubt you
    have killed countless small animals and plants.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  6. On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 18:47:28 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]> wrote:

    ..Mike Vandeman wrote:
    ..
    ..> The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    ..> two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    ..> ===
    ..
    ..Now that's funny. If you really think a bicycle tire will *cut* a snake,
    ..either you're dreaming or you must think bicycles run on razor sharp
    ..tires.

    Where do you see the word "cut", dumdum????

    Hmm, maybe you're thinking of those Jello brand snakes instead. I
    ..doubt a snake would be even killed if run over by a bike.

    Now you are LYING. Most snakes aren't very big, and are easily killed by being
    run over.

    ..As a person who observes and maintain multi-use trails, I am very
    ..skeptical that biking is all that hard on the land. My personal
    ..observations are that the most damage occurs due to rainfall once a
    ..trail exists. So if you have a trail, it will or can erode due to rain.
    ..If there is a boost to that erosion due to some specific use, such as
    ..hikers, bikers or horsemen, I haven't observed it.

    Then you are blind. It is easy for anyone with their eyes open to see
    bike-caused erosion. Knobby tires are designed to rip up the soil, preparing it
    to be washed away by the next rain. Without bikes, there is hardly any erosion.

    ..I doubt you have either if you claim to have observed split snakes.

    You are fantasizing. Where do you see the word "split"????

    IMO,
    ..this discussion is too important for someone to just make up whoppers.
    ..It ruins the entire discussion or at least makes the person with the
    ..claim irrelevent.
    ..
    ..-paul

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  7. On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 00:55:35 GMT, "S o r n i" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    ..Paul Cassel wrote:
    ..> Mike Vandeman wrote:
    ..>
    ..>> The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    ..>> two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    ..>> ===
    ..>
    ..> Now that's funny. If you really think a bicycle tire will *cut* a
    ..> snake, either you're dreaming or you must think bicycles run on razor
    ..> sharp tires. Hmm, maybe you're thinking of those Jello brand snakes
    ..> instead. I doubt a snake would be even killed if run over by a bike.
    ..>
    ..> As a person who observes and maintain multi-use trails, I am very
    ..> skeptical that biking is all that hard on the land. My personal
    ..> observations are that the most damage occurs due to rainfall once a
    ..> trail exists. So if you have a trail, it will or can erode due to
    ..> rain. If there is a boost to that erosion due to some specific use,
    ..> such as hikers, bikers or horsemen, I haven't observed it.
    ..>
    ..> I doubt you have either if you claim to have observed split snakes.
    ..> IMO, this discussion is too important for someone to just make up
    ..> whoppers. It ruins the entire discussion or at least makes the person
    ..> with the claim irrelevent.
    ..
    ..This could serve as a syllabus for Mikey 101.
    ..
    ..Bill "tires roll; boots and hooves plant, twist and grind" S.

    Hmmmm. So bikers NEVER brake, accelerate, or turn? Kind of hard to believe,
    don't you think? The footprints I see show NONE of the effects you describe,
    just a barely-discernible, flat impression.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  8. Paul Cassel said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    ===

    Now that's funny. If you really think a bicycle tire will *cut* a
    snake, either you're dreaming or you must think bicycles run on razor
    sharp tires. Hmm, maybe you're thinking of those Jello brand snakes
    instead. I doubt a snake would be even killed if run over by a bike.

    As a person who observes and maintain multi-use trails, I am very
    skeptical that biking is all that hard on the land. My personal
    observations are that the most damage occurs due to rainfall once a
    trail exists. So if you have a trail, it will or can erode due to
    rain. If there is a boost to that erosion due to some specific use,
    such as hikers, bikers or horsemen, I haven't observed it.

    I doubt you have either if you claim to have observed split snakes.
    IMO, this discussion is too important for someone to just make up
    whoppers. It ruins the entire discussion or at least makes the person
    with the claim irrelevent.

    -paul

    You know the difference between ignorance & stupidity? Ignorance can be
    overcome.

    Pete H

    --
    Either everyone has rights or some have privileges.
    It's really that simple.
    Walt Kelly

  9. Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    On 7 Aug 2004 16:24:52 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:

    .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    .> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:48:20 -0600, "Monique Y. Mudama" <[email hidden]>
    .> wrote:
    .>
    .> .On 2004-08-06, Mike Vandeman penned:
    .> .>
    .> .> You shouldn't have been driving. DUH!
    .> .
    .> .But Mikey, baby, what if that inattentive pedestrian had accidentally
    .> .stepped on a snake? He could have hurt the poor creature!
    .>
    .> It's FAR more likely that a bicyclist will run over a snake. I have seen snakes
    .> killed by bikers, but never by hikers. The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    .> two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    .
    .I watched 3 hikers kill a timber rattlesnake on a local trail this
    .past June. When questioned about their motive, they claimed
    .they were afraid it might have bitten someone. I have never seen
    .a snake in the condition that you have described and I spend far
    .more time on the trials than you ever will.

    Mountain bikers travel too fast to see ANYTHING small on the trail. No doubt you
    have killed countless small animals and plants.

    Countless? If that were true, the trails would be littered with
    these animals. They are not.

    BTW, I am hiking these trails, not biking. Stop your lying.

  10. Mike Vandeman said:

    .
    .> The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    .> two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    .> ===
    .
    .Now that's funny. If you really think a bicycle tire will *cut* a snake,
    .either you're dreaming or you must think bicycles run on razor sharp
    .tires.

    Where do you see the word "cut", dumdum????

    How else can a snake get into two pieces ('separated' is your
    description) if not by a cut?

    Quoted message said:


    Hmm, maybe you're thinking of those Jello brand snakes instead. I
    .doubt a snake would be even killed if run over by a bike.

    Now you are LYING. Most snakes aren't very big, and are easily killed by being
    run over.

    How do you know? I have seen snakes run over by pickups and large cars
    just wiggle off. I can't say if they're mortally wounded, but they don't
    appear so. The psi of a mtn bike is much smaller.

    Now can a snake be killed by a bike? Maybe, but YOU SAID the body would
    be broken. That's plain silly. Examining a car killed snake shows no
    wheel tracks.

    Finally, I don't see snakes hanging around most paths. Sure they may be
    sunning themselves on some rocks, but if crossing a trail, they cross
    and get back into cover.

    Quoted message said:

    Then you are blind. It is easy for anyone with their eyes open to see
    bike-caused erosion. Knobby tires are designed to rip up the soil, preparing it
    to be washed away by the next rain. Without bikes, there is hardly any erosion.

    Sure, I go out there and find tire tracks and skid marks, but these
    aren't precursors to erosion because bikers don't take identical tracks.
    So one bike makes a groove, the next one makes an offset groove which
    fills in the previous groove. At least 95% of the trail isn't grooved at
    all because the bikes are just moving along.

    Now if you want to worry a sport, I think horses make more cuts than
    bikes, but like bikes, the horses don't step in each others' footprints
    so the damage isn't severe. Nor do I blame horses for damaging trails.

    Are you confusing MX bikes with engines and mtn bikers? MX motorized
    bikes can do a lot of damage because they sport about 40 hp (the big
    ones) so are banned from wilderness trails. However, my guess is a human
    can do about 1/4 hp so the resulting damage isn't too much even if the
    biker is trying.

    I would be with you here if I found any of the damage you claim bikes do
    to wilderness areas. What we have here and what I saw in other places,
    are culture clashes. Each group, hikers, bikers and horsemen wish the
    trail for themselves. They also consider themselves the aesthetically
    superior group so blame damage on the others.

    The greatest damage to the wilderness is the trail itself. Once you have
    that trail and the human incursion, it makes zero difference whether the
    humans arrive on foot, bike or horse. Blaming bikes for damage more
    than other groups is factually incorrect.

    -paul

    Quoted message said:
  11. On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 07:58:01 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]> wrote:

    ..Mike Vandeman wrote:
    ..
    ..
    ..> .
    ..> .> The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    ..> .> two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    ..> .> ===
    ..> .
    ..> .Now that's funny. If you really think a bicycle tire will *cut* a snake,
    ..> .either you're dreaming or you must think bicycles run on razor sharp
    ..> .tires.
    ..>
    ..> Where do you see the word "cut", dumdum????
    ..
    ..How else can a snake get into two pieces ('separated' is your
    ..description) if not by a cut?

    Learn to READ. The body is broken in two places, WHICH (THE PLACES) ARE
    SEPARATED BY THE WIDTH OF A MOUNTAIN BIKE TIRE. DUH!

    ..>
    ..> Hmm, maybe you're thinking of those Jello brand snakes instead. I
    ..> .doubt a snake would be even killed if run over by a bike.
    ..>
    ..> Now you are LYING. Most snakes aren't very big, and are easily killed by being
    ..> run over.
    ..
    ..How do you know? I have seen snakes run over by pickups and large cars
    ..just wiggle off. I can't say if they're mortally wounded, but they don't
    ..appear so. The psi of a mtn bike is much smaller.

    They may wriggle off, but with a broken spine & other internal organs.

    ..Now can a snake be killed by a bike? Maybe, but YOU SAID the body would
    ..be broken. That's plain silly. Examining a car killed snake shows no
    ..wheel tracks.
    ..
    ..Finally, I don't see snakes hanging around most paths. Sure they may be
    ..sunning themselves on some rocks, but if crossing a trail, they cross
    ..and get back into cover.

    They like to sun themselves.

    ..> Then you are blind. It is easy for anyone with their eyes open to see
    ..> bike-caused erosion. Knobby tires are designed to rip up the soil, preparing it
    ..> to be washed away by the next rain. Without bikes, there is hardly any erosion.
    ..
    ..Sure, I go out there and find tire tracks and skid marks, but these
    ..aren't precursors to erosion because bikers don't take identical tracks.
    ..So one bike makes a groove, the next one makes an offset groove which
    ..fills in the previous groove. At least 95% of the trail isn't grooved at
    ..all because the bikes are just moving along.

    All of that grooving loosens the soil, so that the rain can carry it away. Bikes
    also throw the soil to one side.

    ..Now if you want to worry a sport, I think horses make more cuts than
    ..bikes, but like bikes, the horses don't step in each others' footprints
    ..so the damage isn't severe. Nor do I blame horses for damaging trails.
    ..
    ..Are you confusing MX bikes with engines and mtn bikers? MX motorized
    ..bikes can do a lot of damage because they sport about 40 hp (the big
    ..ones) so are banned from wilderness trails. However, my guess is a human
    ..can do about 1/4 hp so the resulting damage isn't too much even if the
    ..biker is trying.

    Anyone who has seen mountain bike tracks has seen skid marks and dirt thrown to
    one side of the trail (erosion). They may do less damage per mile, but because
    there are a lot more mountain bikers, they do more total damage.

    ..I would be with you here if I found any of the damage you claim bikes do
    ..to wilderness areas. What we have here and what I saw in other places,
    ..are culture clashes. Each group, hikers, bikers and horsemen wish the
    ..trail for themselves. They also consider themselves the aesthetically
    ..superior group so blame damage on the others.

    Don't change the subject. It won't help you.

    ..The greatest damage to the wilderness is the trail itself. Once you have
    ..that trail and the human incursion, it makes zero difference whether the
    .. humans arrive on foot, bike or horse. Blaming bikes for damage more
    ..than other groups is factually incorrect.

    I guess you haven't read the science on the subject, as I have. Or misunderstood
    it. See:

    The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
    A Review of the Literature
    Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
    July 3, 2004

    "Every recreationist -- whether hiker, biker, horsepacker, or posey sniffer --
    should not begin by asking, 'What's best for ME?' but rather 'What's best for
    the bears?'" Tom Butler
    "Will we keep some parts of the American landscape natural and wild and free --
    or must every acre be easily accessible to people and their toys? … Mountain
    bikes' impacts on the land are large and getting worse. … The aggressive push of
    mountain bike organizations to build ever-growing webs of trails poses serious
    problems of habitat fragmentation, increased erosion, and wildlife conflicts.
    As interest in extreme riding continues to grow, as trail networks
    burgeon, and as new technology makes it possible for ever-more mountain
    bicyclists to participate, even the most remote wild landscapes may become
    trammeled -- and trampled -- by knobby tires. … The destruction of wilderness
    and the fragmentation of habitats and ecosystems is death by a thousand cuts.
    Will introduction of mountain bikes -- and their penetration farther into
    wilderness -- promote additional fragmentation and human conflicts with the
    natural world? Yes." Brian O'Donnell and Michael Carroll
    "Some things are obvious: mountain bikes do more damage to the land than hikers.
    To think otherwise ignores the story told by the ground. Although I have never
    ridden a mountain bike, I am very familiar with their impacts. For the last
    seven years I have regularly run three to six miles several times a week on a
    network of trails in the Sandia Mountain foothills two blocks from my home. …
    These trails receive use from walkers, runners, and mountain bikers; they are
    closed to motorized vehicles.
    Because I'm clumsy, I keep my eyes on the trail in front of me. I run or
    walk in all seasons, in all kinds of weather. I have watched the growing erosion
    on these trails from mountain bike use. The basic difference between feet and
    tires is that tire tracks are continuous and foot tracks are discontinuous.
    Water finds that narrow, continuous tire tracks are a rill in which to flow.
    Also, because many mountain bikers are after thrills and speed, their tires cut
    into the ground. Slamming on the brakes after zooming downhill, sliding around
    sharp corners, and digging in to go uphill: I see the results of this behavior
    weekly. …
    I regularly see mountain bikers cutting off cross-country, even on steep
    slopes, for more of a challenge. They seem blind and deaf to the damage they
    cause. Admittedly, backpackers and horsepackers can cause damage to wilderness
    trails. But this is a poor argument to suggest that we add another source of
    damage to those trails." Dave Foreman

    "Studies show that bike impacts are similar to those of other non-motorized
    trail users." Jim Hasenauer (professor of rhetoric and member of the board of
    directors of the International Mountain Bicyclists Association)

    Introduction:

    I first became interested in the problem of mountain biking in 1994. I
    had been studying the impacts of the presence of humans on wildlife, and had
    come to the conclusion that there needs to be habitat that is entirely
    off-limits to humans, in order that wildlife that is sensitive to the presence
    of humans can survive (see Vandeman, 2000). But what is the best way to minimize
    the presence of people? Restricting human access is repugnant, and difficult and
    expensive to accomplish. It occurred to me that the best way to reduce the
    presence and impacts of humans is to restrict the technologies that they are
    allowed to utilize in nature: e.g. prohibit bicycles and other vehicles (and
    perhaps even domesticated animals, when used as vehicles).

    Having been a transportation activist for eight years (working on
    stopping highway construction), and having a favorable view of my fellow
    bicyclists as environmentalists, I turned to them to help me campaign to keep
    bicycles out of natural areas. Was I ever surprised! I discovered that many
    bicyclists (e.g. many mountain bikers) aren't environmentalists at all, but are
    simply people who like to bicycle -- in the case of mountain bikers, many of
    them just use nature, as a kind of playground or outdoor gymnasium! (Of course,
    there are also hikers, equestrians, and other recreationists who fall into this
    category.) To my suggestion to keep bikes off of trails in order to protect
    wildlife, they reacted with hostility! (There is a degree of balkanization among
    activists, where some transportation activists ignore the needs of wildlife, and
    some wildlife activists eschew bikes and public transit.)

    In 1994 I attended a public hearing held by the East Bay Municipal
    Utility (water) District to decide whether to allow bikes on their watershed
    lands. Mountain bikers were there asking for bike access, and the Sierra Club
    was there to retain the right to hike, while keeping out the bicycles. I said
    that I had no interest in using the watershed, but that I wanted to ensure that
    the wildlife are protected -- hence, I asked that bikes not be allowed.
    Afterward, the EBMUD Board of Directors took a field trip to Marin County, the
    birthplace of mountain biking, to see the effects of mountain biking there.
    While they were hiking along a narrow trail, a mountain biker came racing by,
    swearing at them for not getting out of his way fast enough. That helped them
    decide to ban bikes. Today bikes are still restricted to paved roads, and EBMUD
    is still one of the public agencies most protective of wildlife.

    It is obvious that mountain biking is harmful to some wildlife and
    people. No one, even mountain bikers, tries to deny that. Bikes create V-shaped
    ruts in trails, throw dirt to the outside on turns, crush small plants and
    animals on and under the trail, facilitate increased levels of human access into
    wildlife habitat, and drive other trail users (many of whom are seeking the
    tranquility and primitiveness of natural surroundings) out of the parks. Because
    land managers were starting to ban bikes from trails, the mountain bikers
    decided to try to shift the battlefield to science, and try to convince people
    that mountain biking is no more harmful than hiking. But there are two problems
    with this approach: (1) it's not true, and (2) it's irrelevant.

    I will examine (1) in a moment. But first, let's look at relevance:
    whether or not hiking (or All Terrain Vehicles or urban sprawl or anything else)
    is harmful really has no bearing on whether mountain biking is harmful: they are
    independent questions. Such a comparison would only be relevant if one were
    committed to allowing only one activity or the other, and wanted to know which
    is more harmful. In reality, hiking is always allowed, and the question is
    whether to add mountain biking as a permitted activity. In that case, the only
    relevant question is: Is mountain biking harmful? Of course, it is. However,
    since many people seem interested in the outcome of the comparison, I will
    examine the research and try to answer it.

    The mountain bikers' other line of research aims to prove that mountain
    bikers are just like hikers, implying that they should have the same privileges
    as hikers. (Of course, they already have the same privileges! The exact same
    rules apply to both groups: both are allowed to hike everywhere, and neither is
    allowed to bring a bike where they aren't allowed.) Using surveys, they have
    tried to show that mountain bikers are really environmentalists, lovers of
    nature, and deep ecologists. Of course, surveys are notoriously unreliable:
    statements of belief don't easily translate into behavior. I'm going to ignore
    this research, since I am (and the wildlife are) more interested in actual
    impacts, not intentions.

    The International Mountain Biking Association (IMBA) has done me the
    favor of collecting all the research they could find that seemed favorable to
    mountain biking. Gary Sprung (2004) summarized it in his carefully worded essay,
    "Natural Resource Impacts of Mountain Biking". Gary says "the empirical studies
    thus far do not support the notion that bikes cause more natural resource
    impact". I will show that this is not true; in fact, those studies, if their
    data are interpreted properly, show the exact opposite: that mountain biking has
    much greater impact than hiking! Gary says that we should make "make rational,
    non-arbitrary, less political decisions regarding which groups are allowed on
    particular routes". This is disingenuous. Mountain bikers (but not bikes) are
    already allowed on every trail.

    Impacts on Soil (Erosion):

    Gary says "No scientific studies show that mountain bikers cause more
    wear to trails than other users". He cites Wilson and Seney (1994) and claims
    that "hooves and feet erode more than wheels. … Wilson and Seney found no
    statistically significant difference between measured bicycling and hiking
    effects". He quotes the study: "Horses and hikers (hooves and feet) made more
    sediment available than wheels (motorcycles and off-road bicycles) on prewetted
    trails" (p.74).

    This study is frequently cited by mountain bikers as proof that mountain
    biking doesn't cause more impact than hiking. But it has a number of defects
    that call its conclusions into question. The authors used a "rainfall simulator"
    to measure "sediment made available" by the various treatments. They
    "[collected] surface runoff and sediment yield produced by the simulated
    rainstorms at the downslope end of each plot", which they claim "correlates with
    erosion" (they don't say what the correlation coefficient is). This doesn't seem
    like a good measure of erosion. For example, if a large rock were dislodged, the
    very weak "simulated rainfall" wouldn't be capable of transporting it into the
    collecting tray; only very fine particles would be collected. In fact, they
    admit that the simulator's "small size … meant that the kinetic energy of the
    simulated rainfall events was roughly one-third that of natural rainstorms".
    Another reason to suspect that the measurements aren't valid is that "none of
    the relationships between water runoff and soil texture, slope, antecedent soil
    moisture, trail roughness, and soil resistance was statistically significant".

    The authors also ignored the relative distances that various trail users
    typically travel (for example, bikers generally travel several times as far as
    hikers, multiplying their impacts accordingly) and the additional impacts due to
    the mountain bike bringing new people to the trails that otherwise would not
    have been there (the same omission is true of all other studies, except Wisdom
    et al (2004)). They do say "Trail use in the last ten years has seen a dramatic
    increase in off-road bicycles" (p.86), but they don't incorporate this fact into
    their comparison. In addition, there is no recognition of different styles of
    riding and their effect on erosion. We don't know if the mountain bikers rode in
    representative fashion, or, more likely, rode more gently, with less skidding,
    acceleration, braking, and turning. There was also no recognition that soil
    displaced sideways (rather than downhill) also constitutes erosion damage. It
    seems likely that they underestimated the true impacts of mountain biking. I
    don't think that these results are reliable. (Note that the study was partially
    funded by IMBA.)

    Gary next cited Chiu ([email hidden]) and Kriwoken
    ([email hidden]), claiming that there was "no significant difference
    between hiking and biking trail wear". I wasn't able to acquire this study, but
    it is apparent from Gary's description of it that he (and perhaps the authors)
    misstated the conclusions. If we assume, as they claim, that bikers and hikers
    have the same impact per mile (which is what they measured), then it follows
    that mountain bikers have several times the impact of hikers, since they
    generally travel several times as far. (I haven't found any published
    statistics, but I have informally collected 72 mountain bikers' ride
    announcements, which advertise rides of a minimum of 8 miles, an average of 27
    miles, and a maximum of 112 miles.)

    Impacts on Plants:

    Gary says "No scientific studies indicate that bicycling causes more
    degradation of plants than hiking. Trails are places primarily devoid of
    vegetation, so for trail use in the center of existing paths, impacts to
    vegetation are not a concern." However this is a concern for plants that try to

  12. On 8 Aug 2004 05:15:43 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:

    ..Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    ..> On 7 Aug 2004 16:24:52 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:
    ..>
    ..> .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    ..> .> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:48:20 -0600, "Monique Y. Mudama" <[email hidden]>
    ..> .> wrote:
    ..> .>
    ..> .> .On 2004-08-06, Mike Vandeman penned:
    ..> .> .>
    ..> .> .> You shouldn't have been driving. DUH!
    ..> .> .
    ..> .> .But Mikey, baby, what if that inattentive pedestrian had accidentally
    ..> .> .stepped on a snake? He could have hurt the poor creature!
    ..> .>
    ..> .> It's FAR more likely that a bicyclist will run over a snake. I have seen snakes
    ..> .> killed by bikers, but never by hikers. The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    ..> .> two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    ..> .
    ..> .I watched 3 hikers kill a timber rattlesnake on a local trail this
    ..> .past June. When questioned about their motive, they claimed
    ..> .they were afraid it might have bitten someone. I have never seen
    ..> .a snake in the condition that you have described and I spend far
    ..> .more time on the trials than you ever will.
    ..>
    ..> Mountain bikers travel too fast to see ANYTHING small on the trail. No doubt you
    ..> have killed countless small animals and plants.
    ..
    ..Countless? If that were true, the trails would be littered with
    ..these animals. They are not.

    I guess you have never heard of scavengers? It's incredible, how little mountain
    bikers know of basic biology.

    ..BTW, I am hiking these trails, not biking. Stop your lying.

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  13. Mike Vandeman said:

    On 8 Aug 2004 05:15:43 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    .> Mountain bikers travel too fast to see ANYTHING small on the
    trail. No doubt you .> have killed countless small animals and plants.
    .
    .Countless? If that were true, the trails would be littered with
    .these animals. They are not.

    I guess you have never heard of scavengers? It's incredible, how
    little mountain
    bikers know of basic biology.

    Hmmm. Maybe we should all start looking behind us as we ride! There must
    be /whole herds/ of little critters following to feast on the carnage of
    innocent wildlife left in our wake! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Quoted message said:

    .BTW, I am hiking these trails, not biking. Stop your lying.

    Mikey ignores this, of course.

    Bill "cat scavenged his tongue?" S.

  14. Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    On 8 Aug 2004 05:15:43 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:

    .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    .> On 7 Aug 2004 16:24:52 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:
    .>
    .> .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    .> .> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:48:20 -0600, "Monique Y. Mudama" <[email hidden]>
    .> .> wrote:
    .> .>
    .> .> .On 2004-08-06, Mike Vandeman penned:
    .> .> .>
    .> .> .> You shouldn't have been driving. DUH!
    .> .> .
    .> .> .But Mikey, baby, what if that inattentive pedestrian had accidentally
    .> .> .stepped on a snake? He could have hurt the poor creature!
    .> .>
    .> .> It's FAR more likely that a bicyclist will run over a snake. I have seen snakes
    .> .> killed by bikers, but never by hikers. The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    .> .> two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    .> .
    .> .I watched 3 hikers kill a timber rattlesnake on a local trail this
    .> .past June. When questioned about their motive, they claimed
    .> .they were afraid it might have bitten someone. I have never seen
    .> .a snake in the condition that you have described and I spend far
    .> .more time on the trials than you ever will.
    .>
    .> Mountain bikers travel too fast to see ANYTHING small on the trail. No doubt you
    .> have killed countless small animals and plants.
    .
    .Countless? If that were true, the trails would be littered with
    .these animals. They are not.

    I guess you have never heard of scavengers? It's incredible, how little mountain
    bikers know of basic biology.

    Then it looks like we mountain bikers are actually supporting wildlife
    since we make so much food availiable to these "scavengers."

    Sorry, but the facts just don't support your "theory." While you are
    in some bath house, I'm outside where all this carnage supposedly
    takes place and yet it remains unseen. It is either well hidden or
    doesn't exist. Since I'm out at all hours (my job affords me much free time
    for which I'm paid!) and haven't seen it, it just isn't so.

    Quoted message said:

    .BTW, I am hiking these trails, not biking. Stop your lying.

    Ignore the fact that I'm not on a bike.

  15. On 10 Aug 2004 08:40:11 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:

    ..Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    ..> On 8 Aug 2004 05:15:43 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:
    ..>
    ..> .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    ..> .> On 7 Aug 2004 16:24:52 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:
    ..> .>
    ..> .> .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    ..> .> .> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:48:20 -0600, "Monique Y. Mudama" <[email hidden]>
    ..> .> .> wrote:
    ..> .> .>
    ..> .> .> .On 2004-08-06, Mike Vandeman penned:
    ..> .> .> .>
    ..> .> .> .> You shouldn't have been driving. DUH!
    ..> .> .> .
    ..> .> .> .But Mikey, baby, what if that inattentive pedestrian had accidentally
    ..> .> .> .stepped on a snake? He could have hurt the poor creature!
    ..> .> .>
    ..> .> .> It's FAR more likely that a bicyclist will run over a snake. I have seen snakes
    ..> .> .> killed by bikers, but never by hikers. The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    ..> .> .> two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    ..> .> .
    ..> .> .I watched 3 hikers kill a timber rattlesnake on a local trail this
    ..> .> .past June. When questioned about their motive, they claimed
    ..> .> .they were afraid it might have bitten someone. I have never seen
    ..> .> .a snake in the condition that you have described and I spend far
    ..> .> .more time on the trials than you ever will.
    ..> .>
    ..> .> Mountain bikers travel too fast to see ANYTHING small on the trail. No doubt you
    ..> .> have killed countless small animals and plants.
    ..> .
    ..> .Countless? If that were true, the trails would be littered with
    ..> .these animals. They are not.
    ..>
    ..> I guess you have never heard of scavengers? It's incredible, how little mountain
    ..> bikers know of basic biology.
    ..
    ..Then it looks like we mountain bikers are actually supporting wildlife
    ..since we make so much food availiable to these "scavengers."
    ..
    ..Sorry, but the facts just don't support your "theory." While you are
    ..in some bath house, I'm outside where all this carnage supposedly
    ..takes place and yet it remains unseen. It is either well hidden or
    ..doesn't exist. Since I'm out at all hours (my job affords me much free time
    ..for which I'm paid!) and haven't seen it, it just isn't so.

    You aren't looking. That's why you kill them in the first place. (Don't forget,
    insects are animals.)
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  16. Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    On 10 Aug 2004 08:40:11 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:

    .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    .> On 8 Aug 2004 05:15:43 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:
    .>
    .> .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    .> .> On 7 Aug 2004 16:24:52 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:
    .> .>
    .> .> .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    .> .> .> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:48:20 -0600, "Monique Y. Mudama" <[email hidden]>
    .> .> .> wrote:
    .> .> .>
    .> .> .> .On 2004-08-06, Mike Vandeman penned:
    .> .> .> .>
    .> .> .> .> You shouldn't have been driving. DUH!
    .> .> .> .
    .> .> .> .But Mikey, baby, what if that inattentive pedestrian had accidentally
    .> .> .> .stepped on a snake? He could have hurt the poor creature!
    .> .> .>
    .> .> .> It's FAR more likely that a bicyclist will run over a snake. I have seen snakes
    .> .> .> killed by bikers, but never by hikers. The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    .> .> .> two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    .> .> .
    .> .> .I watched 3 hikers kill a timber rattlesnake on a local trail this
    .> .> .past June. When questioned about their motive, they claimed
    .> .> .they were afraid it might have bitten someone. I have never seen
    .> .> .a snake in the condition that you have described and I spend far
    .> .> .more time on the trials than you ever will.
    .> .>
    .> .> Mountain bikers travel too fast to see ANYTHING small on the trail. No doubt you
    .> .> have killed countless small animals and plants.
    .> .
    .> .Countless? If that were true, the trails would be littered with
    .> .these animals. They are not.
    .>
    .> I guess you have never heard of scavengers? It's incredible, how little mountain
    .> bikers know of basic biology.
    .
    .Then it looks like we mountain bikers are actually supporting wildlife
    .since we make so much food availiable to these "scavengers."
    .
    .Sorry, but the facts just don't support your "theory." While you are
    .in some bath house, I'm outside where all this carnage supposedly
    .takes place and yet it remains unseen. It is either well hidden or
    .doesn't exist. Since I'm out at all hours (my job affords me much free time
    .for which I'm paid!) and haven't seen it, it just isn't so.

    You aren't looking. That's why you kill them in the first place. (Don't forget,
    insects are animals.)

    How am I killing them when I'm doing what you advocate, HIKING?

  17. On 11 Aug 2004 14:14:21 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:

    ..Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    ..> On 10 Aug 2004 08:40:11 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:
    ..>
    ..> .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    ..> .> On 8 Aug 2004 05:15:43 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:
    ..> .>
    ..> .> .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    ..> .> .> On 7 Aug 2004 16:24:52 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:
    ..> .> .>
    ..> .> .> .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    ..> .> .> .> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:48:20 -0600, "Monique Y. Mudama" <[email hidden]>
    ..> .> .> .> wrote:
    ..> .> .> .>
    ..> .> .> .> .On 2004-08-06, Mike Vandeman penned:
    ..> .> .> .> .>
    ..> .> .> .> .> You shouldn't have been driving. DUH!
    ..> .> .> .> .
    ..> .> .> .> .But Mikey, baby, what if that inattentive pedestrian had accidentally
    ..> .> .> .> .stepped on a snake? He could have hurt the poor creature!
    ..> .> .> .>
    ..> .> .> .> It's FAR more likely that a bicyclist will run over a snake. I have seen snakes
    ..> .> .> .> killed by bikers, but never by hikers. The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    ..> .> .> .> two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    ..> .> .> .
    ..> .> .> .I watched 3 hikers kill a timber rattlesnake on a local trail this
    ..> .> .> .past June. When questioned about their motive, they claimed
    ..> .> .> .they were afraid it might have bitten someone. I have never seen
    ..> .> .> .a snake in the condition that you have described and I spend far
    ..> .> .> .more time on the trials than you ever will.
    ..> .> .>
    ..> .> .> Mountain bikers travel too fast to see ANYTHING small on the trail. No doubt you
    ..> .> .> have killed countless small animals and plants.
    ..> .> .
    ..> .> .Countless? If that were true, the trails would be littered with
    ..> .> .these animals. They are not.
    ..> .>
    ..> .> I guess you have never heard of scavengers? It's incredible, how little mountain
    ..> .> bikers know of basic biology.
    ..> .
    ..> .Then it looks like we mountain bikers are actually supporting wildlife
    ..> .since we make so much food availiable to these "scavengers."
    ..> .
    ..> .Sorry, but the facts just don't support your "theory." While you are
    ..> .in some bath house, I'm outside where all this carnage supposedly
    ..> .takes place and yet it remains unseen. It is either well hidden or
    ..> .doesn't exist. Since I'm out at all hours (my job affords me much free time
    ..> .for which I'm paid!) and haven't seen it, it just isn't so.
    ..>
    ..> You aren't looking. That's why you kill them in the first place. (Don't forget,
    ..> insects are animals.)
    ..
    ..How am I killing them when I'm doing what you advocate, HIKING?

    I don't advocate hiking, liar.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  18. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 18:47:28 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]> wrote:

    .Mike Vandeman wrote:
    .<<SNIP>>

    Quoted message said:

    Then you are blind. It is easy for anyone with their eyes open to see
    bike-caused erosion. Knobby tires are designed to rip up the soil,


    preparing it

    Quoted message said:

    to be washed away by the next rain. Without bikes, there is hardly any


    erosion.

    Quoted message said:


    My GOD, what planet are you talking about, where, "Without bikes, there is
    hardly any erosion"? Certainly not earth.

    Just another Vandelie.

  19. Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    On 11 Aug 2004 14:14:21 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:

    .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    .> On 10 Aug 2004 08:40:11 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:
    .>
    .> .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    .> .> On 8 Aug 2004 05:15:43 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:
    .> .>
    .> .> .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    .> .> .> On 7 Aug 2004 16:24:52 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:
    .> .> .>
    .> .> .> .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    .> .> .> .> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:48:20 -0600, "Monique Y. Mudama" <[email hidden]>
    .> .> .> .> wrote:
    .> .> .> .>
    .> .> .> .> .On 2004-08-06, Mike Vandeman penned:
    .> .> .> .> .>
    .> .> .> .> .> You shouldn't have been driving. DUH!
    .> .> .> .> .
    .> .> .> .> .But Mikey, baby, what if that inattentive pedestrian had accidentally
    .> .> .> .> .stepped on a snake? He could have hurt the poor creature!
    .> .> .> .>
    .> .> .> .> It's FAR more likely that a bicyclist will run over a snake. I have seen snakes
    .> .> .> .> killed by bikers, but never by hikers. The tell-tale signs are a body broken in
    .> .> .> .> two places, separated by the width of a mountain bike tire.
    .> .> .> .
    .> .> .> .I watched 3 hikers kill a timber rattlesnake on a local trail this
    .> .> .> .past June. When questioned about their motive, they claimed
    .> .> .> .they were afraid it might have bitten someone. I have never seen
    .> .> .> .a snake in the condition that you have described and I spend far
    .> .> .> .more time on the trials than you ever will.
    .> .> .>
    .> .> .> Mountain bikers travel too fast to see ANYTHING small on the trail. No doubt you
    .> .> .> have killed countless small animals and plants.
    .> .> .
    .> .> .Countless? If that were true, the trails would be littered with
    .> .> .these animals. They are not.
    .> .>
    .> .> I guess you have never heard of scavengers? It's incredible, how little mountain
    .> .> bikers know of basic biology.
    .> .
    .> .Then it looks like we mountain bikers are actually supporting wildlife
    .> .since we make so much food availiable to these "scavengers."
    .> .
    .> .Sorry, but the facts just don't support your "theory." While you are
    .> .in some bath house, I'm outside where all this carnage supposedly
    .> .takes place and yet it remains unseen. It is either well hidden or
    .> .doesn't exist. Since I'm out at all hours (my job affords me much free time
    .> .for which I'm paid!) and haven't seen it, it just isn't so.
    .>
    .> You aren't looking. That's why you kill them in the first place. (Don't forget,
    .> insects are animals.)
    .
    .How am I killing them when I'm doing what you advocate, HIKING?

    I don't advocate hiking, liar.

    You do advocate hiking over biking. That proves that enviromentalist
    always lie.

    I see you didn't refute the accusation you were in a bath house.
    You should run for governor of New Jersey.

  20. On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:44:57 GMT, "Rosco" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 18:47:28 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]> wrote:

    .Mike Vandeman wrote:
    .<<SNIP>>

    Quoted message said:

    Then you are blind. It is easy for anyone with their eyes open to see
    bike-caused erosion. Knobby tires are designed to rip up the soil,


    preparing it

    Quoted message said:

    to be washed away by the next rain. Without bikes, there is hardly any


    erosion.

    Quoted message said:


    My GOD, what planet are you talking about, where, "Without bikes, there is
    hardly any erosion"? Certainly not earth.

    Just another Vandelie.


    It is OBVIOUS that features like the Grand Canyon could only have been
    caused by erosion from mountain bike tires.

    Happy trails,
    Gary (net.yogi.bear)
    ------------------------------------------------
    at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

    Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
    Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

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