re; How i spent

Quoted message said:

Lance extrapolating his times across longer distances, I laugh my

ass off. Then again, he has been keeping us all amused
__

thank you doug, someone's gotta stir it up around here...lol.
seriously though doug...i don't discount or underestimate all the words
from the trail crowd around here. unfortunately you guys have a
glaring problem in my view....a total disconnect that i notice but
don't point out to you guys (& ladies). however now i will.

on topic per your last cautions....this "oh so treacherous surface"
that you fierce trail runners contend with. characterize it as
dangerous all you want and until the cows come home. the bottom line?
everytime i ask you guys about shoes...you repeatedly, constantly,
allways come back with, "we all wear road running shoes". <--and
that's the disconnect, that's the problem.

I own adidas trail running shoes....hell i own a pair of the hardcore
stuff....the real trail running shoes...Salomon XA Pro Trail Running
Shoe. now i got these shoes out of "respect for the game"...the trail
running endeavor. i made a mistake i try not to do...i "assumed". i
assumed these surface conditions were "oh so treacherous" that a proper
trail running shoe would be a "must" to survive. apparently this is
not the case.

repeatedely over the years when i asked on this ng........"not so" is
the answer. so on one hand, you want to build up "tales of the trail"
and plant all this caution of the surfaces that must be
negotiated....yet on the other hand...what shoe do you use to battle
these dangerous treacherous conditions?..."Asics 2100"...hahahahhahaha.
imo that's some funny sh%# doug. i am sure you can see the humor in
that.

you wanna manifest some serious respect for the game? show up in nyc
without spikes for 800m or 1 mile on a track and you are seriously
disadvantaged from the start.

based on the feedback over the years from this ng....you are not
disadvantaged to wear road shoes in this trail races...in
fact...everyone does it according to all of you.

ya see i "assumed" the technologies and features of these trail shoes
like the Salomon XA Pro trail shoe and all the many other bands and
flavors of trail shoes were needed and required for the conditions.

The fact that the majority of runners wear road shoes in these trail
races tells me all I need to know about these "oh so treacherous"
surface conditions. give me a break doug....can't have it both ways,
can't spin it, explain or rationalize it. if you and your brothern are
wearing road shoes on the trails...say no more.

Of course pavement surface is going to be an issue and it's not like
road....and there is a fatigue factor and time erosion/penality
involved in going from road to trail.

but as long as you guys are not wearing trail shoes...not disavantaged
by not wearing trail shoes....please....spare me the hype of these
treacherous surfaces....if your asics 2100s are suffient gear to handle
them....how tough can they be?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lance extrapolating his times across longer distances, I laugh my

ass off. Then again, he has been keeping us all amused
__
..... [snipped much bluster]
but as long as you guys are not wearing trail shoes...not disavantaged
by not wearing trail shoes....please....spare me the hype of these
treacherous surfaces....if your asics 2100s are suffient gear to handle
them....how tough can they be?

Thanks for another amusing tirade Lance. On trails and in ultras, one uses
whatever works best, considering various trade-offs. Some that come to mind
are traction, stability/support, and forefoot protection. Aside from rubber
compound differences in various shoes (Dot can expound upon this), almost
all running shoes have good traction on a variety of surfaces, including
dirt trails. Screws are inserted into shoes for ice/snow etc.

The more experience you get as a trail runner, the less extra stability you
need, and the same goes with forefoot protection (stiff plastic plate to
protect the foot from sharp rocks). The latter is more important on some
trails where rocks are prevalent, such as the escarpment trail. Some
unstable shoes are ok for some trails, not for others. For example, I ran
the VT 50 mile in Nike air pegasus (a soft stability shoe with no extra
forefoot protection), but I ran the escarpment trail race in North Face
ultra 102's which have good stability and a nice forefoot plate.

The tradeoff is that stiffer shoes such as the North Face's chew up your
feet more, whereas the softer shoes such as the Nikes beat up your feet
more. Take your pick as to what will balance out best for a particular
distance over a particular course. The truth is that *how* you run trails -
trail running experience counts for a lot, and that's why many experienced
trail runners can use normal road shoes on most trails. Beginners will have
more problems and might fare better with trail shoes.

I know you were just blowing smoke, but your idea that because trail runners
don't need special shoes therefore trail running must not be hard - is
comical - and I don't see the trail runners here saying trails are harder
per se. As has been debated here in the past, there's a difference between
hard in terms of effort, and hard in terms of course difficulty. You've
heard many in here say that a 50k on trails is easier on your body than a
road marathon. So in that sense it's easier. But it depends on the trails. A
race like the escarpment trail will chew up your support muscles and leave
you in a heap if you run it hard, and so will a marathon, but there will be
differences. The road marathon will stress your skeleton and flat-running
specific muscles more. Ultra's are different game and hard to compare
because it's the mental challenge both in the race itself and in training
that make it difficult. In the case of ultra's over 50 miles, it's often
finishing that is the goal for most. Unless your body is extremely working
very well, you won't finish running. With extreme challenges like Barkley,
the course itself is more challenging than the competition.

http://www.mattmahoney.net/barkley/

-Tony

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

on topic per your last cautions....this "oh so treacherous surface"
that you fierce trail runners contend with. characterize it as
dangerous all you want and until the cows come home. the bottom line?
everytime i ask you guys about shoes...you repeatedly, constantly,
allways come back with, "we all wear road running shoes". <--and
that's the disconnect, that's the problem.

This is no different with any aspect of running be it what to wear,
what to eat or not eat, how to train, length of long run, etc - there
is no single answer. I can get by with road shoes on all trails and may
optionally add screws for certain conditions. Others need very rigid low
profile trail shoes. If you review shoes at some arbitrary trail race
you will find the entire spectrum. The disconnect, in your terms, is
your total lack of knowledge of this type of running.

This is not your fault but just inexperience. Many people ask these same
type of questions and some of us offer what works for us and what works
for others. I don't think Dan, Phil, Tony, Steve ever said there is only
one type of shoe, etc. In your case you come to some definitive
conclusions in a closet. Therein lies the humor, your selective reading
or maybe comprehension.

Quoted message said:

I own adidas trail running shoes....hell i own a pair of the hardcore
stuff....the real trail running shoes...Salomon XA Pro Trail Running

And you use these for what?

Quoted message said:

Shoe. now i got these shoes out of "respect for the game"...the trail
running endeavor. i made a mistake i try not to do...i "assumed".
i
assumed these surface conditions were "oh so treacherous" that a
proper
trail running shoe would be a "must" to survive. apparently this is
not the case.

Again selective reading/comprehension.

Quoted message said:

repeatedely over the years when i asked on this ng........"not so" is
the answer. so on one hand, you want to build up "tales of the trail"
and plant all this caution of the surfaces that must be
negotiated....yet on the other hand...what shoe do you use to battle
these dangerous treacherous conditions?..."Asics
2100"...hahahahhahaha.
imo that's some funny sh%# doug. i am sure you can see the humor in
that.

The humor is all yours because you have your mind made up. I run in my
21NN on the Escarpment trail, which is considered some of the nastiest
footing mile for mile on the east coast. me wearing 2100 does make the
trail any less difficult it merely means it is what I like to wear. Has
this point creased your thick memory skull yet. I would not suggest to
anyone else that they should run in same model. You need to learn what
shoe works for you especially in a long race. A shoe may be good through
a 50k yet kill you in a 50 or 100. It's called experience and not some
extrapolation from a spread sheet.

Quoted message said:

you wanna manifest some serious respect for the game? show up in nyc
without spikes for 800m or 1 mile on a track and you are seriously
disadvantaged from the start.

Of course I am disadvantaged but unlike you I know my limitations
because I started as many with short running and then discovered over
the years that I prefer distance. You have settled into short and
fast - which is fine but don't be dumb enough to claim you understand
the long stuff.

Quoted message said:

based on the feedback over the years from this ng....you are not
disadvantaged to wear road shoes in this trail races...in
fact...everyone does it according to all of you.

Too all of us? Your conclusion.

Quoted message said:

but as long as you guys are not wearing trail shoes...not disavantaged
by not wearing trail shoes....please....spare me the hype of these
treacherous surfaces....if your asics 2100s are suffient gear to
handle
them....how tough can they be?

To try to map shoes to trail as some measurement of difficulty is more
of you ignorance and inexperience.

Qualify and sign up for the Escarpment Trail race this summer. A dinky
30k which I'm sure your will look at times vs. ages and win your age
group. Insert big facetious smile. I'll be there at the finish line to
tear of your number assuming you make it to he end. Then tell me about.
Walk the walk and then talk the talk.

-DougF

Quoted message said:

know you were just blowing smoke, but your idea that because trail runners

don't need special shoes therefore trail running must not be hard - is
comical -
___

true i might take a posture just to mix things up a bit around and
challenge notions, etc. and i can see your argument that the experience
of the runner might allow/enable them to wear a certain type of shoe
over another. however i am not letting you off that easy. most of
your points in this regard apply to road runners too. but terrain does
not care how experienced you are...no? to say, "one uses whatever
works best" is avoidance, plain and simple. if the tread of a pair of
asics 2100s or Nike Pegs is sufficient for the surface, actual road
running shoes.....well...those trails don't strike as treacherous at
all...no where near to the degree as characterized eariler per this
thread.

i've seen the trail shoes offered by adidas, asics, new balance,
etc....and the treads/traction inherit in their design is significantly
higher up the "bite / teetch" ladder than road shoes like asics 2100s
and Pegs, etc. this is not a function of experience....it's a
function of necessity. i can only assume you don't need the traction
of a trail running shoe. from all accounts on this newsgroup over the
years....most of you don't even need that measure/level of
tread/traction for these trails...for the most part....you're in road
shoes, not trail shoes. And the Soloman, Merril, etc. class of trail
shoes? Heck, I wonder if Doug's even owned a pair of the real hardcore
stuff.....and why? I can only assume he does not see road surface
wherein such shoes are warranted.

on a side note, i got up this morning and ran 3 miles on black ice road
in central park....in a pair of Adidas Response Trail 10 shoes...the
conditions warranted the tread..

Doug Freese said:

From: "Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net>
Subject: Re: How I spent Last Sunday(50k)
Date: Saturday, January 14, 2006 3:11 PM

Quoted message said:

I'm sure there must be one or two from upstate NY
somewhere (not ag, and Nikki moved to MT a couple years ago), but off
the top of my head, none spring to mind - could be oversight on my
part.

Daniel Cherniack and Nicki are the two that come to mind. John Geesler
is a NY boy. John ran second to Yiannis Kouros
in across the years with 263 miles.

Yea, I spaced out John Geesler, and I know he's from that area. He did
300 at ATY last year. Just curious, does he do regular trail races also
or just these fixed time races? I haven't heard of Cherniack before that
I can remember. Spelling - google didn't show anything running related?

He is some running machine. he is

Quoted message said:

the most quiet person you will ever meet. he just shows at dozens of
ultra races a year and is usually in the top 10. We have Sue Johnson
but she is Mass I think.

I think I've heard of her, but google can't find anything either. Maybe
google's on strike for running related stuff this morning.

Seems like WMAC has a strong field for lots of things trail running
related - mtns, ss, trail. But immediate it seems like NYC area just
doesn't even register at the national level when you include folks from
CO-NM and CA.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But I agree with your main point. First-timers on a rocky, rooty
single
track might eat crow for post-race festivities. Some wise and/or
talented ones can pull it off. (I'm being polite and stopping there.)

Very true. We have had rookies come and do well but we seldom see them
again. Then we have the egocentric come and only wish they had the
energy to eat crow after the race. 🙂

Someone was telling me a story the other day about a trail 16 miler with
2000ft elevation, no aid (standard-issue Alaskan), and someone asked her
why everyone was carrying camelbaks and water bottles. (xc skier who
doesn't usually run)

Quoted message said:

All true and why people should do some homework about the race they plan
to do and then train in the same conditions. I know this is not always
possible. People come from places like Florida to do a hilly race.

True, but knowledge of conditions beforehand can allow mental prep and
sometimes you can create workouts that simulate conditions or at least
work the right muscles. I know I (and many others) was blind-sided by
that 1st 10k last year - inaugural event, fairly new trail (<5 yr old),
and I had only seen it with snow cover (I did try to preview) - and only
part of it at that. So very few people knew what to expect. There were a
lot of comments afterward, and I think it's going to be a very popular
trail race - one of the few in Anchorage area that's not a mtn race nor
on groomed ski trails.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Dot said:

Doug Freese said:

From: "Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net>
Subject: Re: How I spent Last Sunday(50k)
Date: Saturday, January 14, 2006 3:11 PM

Quoted message said:

I'm sure there must be one or two from upstate NY
somewhere (not ag, and Nikki moved to MT a couple years ago), but off
the top of my head, none spring to mind - could be oversight on my part.

Daniel Cherniack and Nicki are the two that come to mind. John
Geesler is a NY boy. John ran second to Yiannis Kouros
in across the years with 263 miles.

Yea, I spaced out John Geesler, and I know he's from that area. He did
300 at ATY last year. Just curious, does he do regular trail races also
or just these fixed time races? I haven't heard of Cherniack before that
I can remember. Spelling - google didn't show anything running related?

Danielle Cherniak.
http://www.hmrrc.com/cherniak.htm
She has an interesting style, her elbows are way out there.
Our coach had some experiences with her as part of some type of US
Distance team. Apparently not good ones.

Speaking of which, here's am ultra idea for Lance.
Our coach was recently telling a story about running a 100 mile race on
the track, I believe in NYC. This would would have been a ways back
though I'm not sure when. When he was at 40 miles he was told that he
would still get his award if he stopped.
Apparenly everyone else quit. He didn't take them up on their offer and
finished.

Quoted message said:

He is some running machine. he is

Quoted message said:

the most quiet person you will ever meet. he just shows at dozens of
ultra races a year and is usually in the top 10. We have Sue Johnson
but she is Mass I think.

I think I've heard of her, but google can't find anything either. Maybe
google's on strike for running related stuff this morning.

Seems like WMAC has a strong field for lots of things trail running
related - mtns, ss, trail. But immediate it seems like NYC area just
doesn't even register at the national level when you include folks from
CO-NM and CA.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But I agree with your main point. First-timers on a rocky, rooty single
track might eat crow for post-race festivities. Some wise and/or
talented ones can pull it off. (I'm being polite and stopping there.)

Very true. We have had rookies come and do well but we seldom see them
again. Then we have the egocentric come and only wish they had the
energy to eat crow after the race. 🙂

Someone was telling me a story the other day about a trail 16 miler with
2000ft elevation, no aid (standard-issue Alaskan), and someone asked her
why everyone was carrying camelbaks and water bottles. (xc skier who
doesn't usually run)

Quoted message said:

All true and why people should do some homework about the race they
plan to do and then train in the same conditions. I know this is not
always possible. People come from places like Florida to do a hilly race.

True, but knowledge of conditions beforehand can allow mental prep and
sometimes you can create workouts that simulate conditions or at least
work the right muscles. I know I (and many others) was blind-sided by
that 1st 10k last year - inaugural event, fairly new trail (<5 yr old),
and I had only seen it with snow cover (I did try to preview) - and only
part of it at that. So very few people knew what to expect. There were a
lot of comments afterward, and I think it's going to be a very popular
trail race - one of the few in Anchorage area that's not a mtn race nor
on groomed ski trails.

Dot

Parker Race said:

Dot said:

Doug Freese said:

From: "Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net>
Subject: Re: How I spent Last Sunday(50k)
Date: Saturday, January 14, 2006 3:11 PM

> I'm sure there must be one or two from upstate NY
> somewhere (not ag, and Nikki moved to MT a couple years ago), but off
> the top of my head, none spring to mind - could be oversight on my
> part.

Daniel Cherniack and Nicki are the two that come to mind. John
Geesler is a NY boy. John ran second to Yiannis Kouros
in across the years with 263 miles.

Yea, I spaced out John Geesler, and I know he's from that area. He did
300 at ATY last year. Just curious, does he do regular trail races
also or just these fixed time races? I haven't heard of Cherniack
before that I can remember. Spelling - google didn't show anything
running related?

Danielle Cherniak.
http://www.hmrrc.com/cherniak.htm
She has an interesting style, her elbows are way out there.
Our coach had some experiences with her as part of some type of US
Distance team. Apparently not good ones.

Thanks. I had a feeling spelling might be an issue, but wasn't sure
which permutations to try 😉 Looks like she's more of a road runner
according to bio. (googled on correct spelling) Looks like she's up in
the Troy area, well outside NYC.

(And Doug apparently doesn't realize that Nikki moved to MT a couple
years ago.)

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

found 3 left shoes.
boat shoes,front little toe areas back to ½ arch size 11. blue, black
and tan with strings worn to no tread.
and a wing s,c+n,c+a few other states blue bag. yellow s,c, tamponed
holden water proof and in the swim trunk, masking tape and a tissue were
a pinked had a cut. and some tissue like the old state parks have in the
toilet area on the great lakes.
the bag had a bunch of little clothes dolls, I thought it weird since
there was a hockey grads teams picture. why have dolls, I dump them to
get some t shirts. black heavy metal band.
and in the bag was a beer holder of a color and design that was on
dateline of 2 murder taken place in the u.p.
there all so was a bunch of body surf boards.

the hockey group likes to hunt. because the labor pay makes them lose
money just on the down size to recover alone is 5 times folds.

here swat I figure. the group was in the water whether boat arrived,
had a beer the woman and man join thereon the beach since 1 of the
boards sound like sand inside it. the coast guard when he return to the
abandon boat and the blue side boyars were gone. replace not by the
first white ones gone. 1 paddled out to get this before guards
returned.

as for the 3 left shoes and suits shirts and boars. I can use them to
swim maybe this summer. like the time I got $20.00 when hat fat italian
drowned. the turtle were eating on him 3 days latter when the life
guard found him.
there was so many people there that day and his 2 buddies were with him?
thy came from a wedding. I went and got sugar cookies and re did some
running.
Dateline said they man and woman did a week end boat trip from canada
south of detroit to u.p michigan. since a bar over there were her bud
had a holder of said wings bag. in trash down road here. well maybe the
bar there in canada sells hem beer holders year found. and the 3 left
trail shoes belong to some one with only a left leg.......Never know.
boat sand and trail to hunt and kill.
you don't need trail shoes to do a trail and the boat shoes if you get
them wet, they won't go down to size 10 from 11 the next day.
just a thought.
if the boat went to the group in the water at the surf boards. and
studs well be studs.
the great lakes can be dangerus.
dateline said some one mess with the gps too.

gas for a trip on a boat must cost alto.
coast guard claim the boat? or did he need a toll and witness?

any who the girl and guy still missing.
and the wings won agen N.Y 5 to 2 well the last goal went in 1 second
after the clock because the back goaler was allrady on his way to the
locker room.

Get it.
REED WINGS 4 New YORKERS 2.......
detroitt 4444444444444444
n.y. 22222222222222222

HeScores.
brought to you by little [censored] from rock finances who take all the
work and give's to the pistons. oh yes thanks for putting new dirt from
the gravel pit to save them trees. You do Rock......... free for sub
next door. Oh yes rock drive way next door is private road so take the
workers in future to the pensil [censored] roadway in front.
You so go. Fagget!
Detroit Pistonssssssssssssss

oh 1 more thing san antony lost too. texas are not that big>
Detroitttttttttttt Pistonsssssssssss
number 1 basket ball team/ brought to you again by the little [censored]
group at rock finances...

Quoted message said:

I'll be there at the finish line to tear of your number

__

doug?....why would you do that?.....wait a minute....you're not hinting
to me....you're not really suggesting.......are you telling me these
races are not chipped? not even winningtime? uuuurrrrrrgggghhhhhhh!

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

know you were just blowing smoke, but your idea that because trail

runners

Quoted message said:

don't need special shoes therefore trail running must not be hard - is
comical -
___

true i might take a posture just to mix things up a bit around and
challenge notions, etc. and i can see your argument that the experience
of the runner might allow/enable them to wear a certain type of shoe
over another. however i am not letting you off that easy. most of
your points in this regard apply to road runners too. but terrain does
not care how experienced you are...no? to say, "one uses whatever
works best" is avoidance, plain and simple. if the tread of a pair of
asics 2100s or Nike Pegs is sufficient for the surface, actual road
running shoes.....well...those trails don't strike as treacherous at
all...no where near to the degree as characterized eariler per this
thread.

You run primarily using balance, and push-off grip is far less important
than it is in track. IMO aggressive treads rarely make much difference, as
most running shoes have some bite to them. Your beef is with the companies
that make and market trail running shoes, not trail runners.

Quoted message said:

i've seen the trail shoes offered by adidas, asics, new balance,
etc....and the treads/traction inherit in their design is significantly
higher up the "bite / teetch" ladder than road shoes like asics 2100s
and Pegs, etc. this is not a function of experience....it's a
function of necessity. i can only assume you don't need the traction
of a trail running shoe. from all accounts on this newsgroup over the
years....most of you don't even need that measure/level of
tread/traction for these trails...for the most part....you're in road
shoes, not trail shoes. And the Soloman, Merril, etc. class of trail
shoes? Heck, I wonder if Doug's even owned a pair of the real hardcore
stuff.....and why? I can only assume he does not see road surface
wherein such shoes are warranted.

on a side note, i got up this morning and ran 3 miles on black ice road
in central park....in a pair of Adidas Response Trail 10 shoes...the
conditions warranted the tread..

On black ice, some screw shoes would give better traction than a different
tread and/or rubber compound, but some work better than others.

-T

and 1 more thing.
that volcano in alaska.
hay dot were you on it?
what you doing this week end or week?
feel like a climb old buddie.
can you send a sample. pre fer fresh and hot.
addrest send to DF N.Y. city state mental house bld.... or
rikers........
care of fagget and queer of year awards...u.s.a....... DFD 50 week
end....
sign it lace lance the bikers rikers. I like um big and
sassy. on the rocks.

you left the name on it df........

you did,.....I should of sent it to texas.... in care of the mark
brother's

Tony S. said:

You run primarily using balance, and push-off grip is far less important
than it is in track. IMO aggressive treads rarely make much difference, as
most running shoes have some bite to them. Your beef is with the companies
that make and market trail running shoes, not trail runners.

I would agree about the existing tread designs not being the most
significant effect of trail shoes or some road shoes, but some road
shoes are lacking there. I've always run in winter so have always bought
road shoes with tread that works reasonably in snow. They're also more
comfortable on impact.

My take: Appropriately designed tread can make a difference in things
like snow, mud, and loose gravel on rock or hard-packed dirt. Operative
words are "appropriately designed" since there's a 1000 kinds of snow
and mud surfaces, and some kinds will clog most treads and leave the
runner treadless - or worse slick mud on slick mud. Snow that clogs
treads is where things like yak trax help since the coils are far enough
apart they don't clog usually.

Outsole compound (aka sticky rubber) is more useful on rocks and ice.
Metal thingies like traction devices and studs on icebug shoes help on ice.

But tread isn't what it's about in terms of trail times being slower
than road times. I mean some people run in rubber tires for 100 mi and
probably barefoot some times.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

doug?....why would you do that?.....wait a minute....you're not
hinting
to me....you're not really suggesting.......are you telling me these
races are not chipped? not even winningtime?
uuuurrrrrrgggghhhhhhh!

Of course it's chipped, you just can't see them. There are markers and
cloth covered aid stations every mile. Everything you could ever wish
for in a trail race.

-DF

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yea, I spaced out John Geesler, and I know he's from that area. He did
300 at ATY last year. Just curious, does he do regular trail races
also or just these fixed time races? I haven't heard of Cherniack
before that I can remember. Spelling - google didn't show anything
running related?

My bad spelling, it's Cherniak. Parker gave at least one web page. I'm
sure there are others.

Quoted message said:

He is some running machine. he is

Quoted message said:

the most quiet person you will ever meet. he just shows at dozens of
ultra races a year and is usually in the top 10. We have Sue
Johnson but she is Mass I think.

I think I've heard of her, but google can't find anything either.
Maybe google's on strike for running related stuff this morning.

More bad spelling it's Sue Johnston, note the T. She is from Vermont.

Quoted message said:

Seems like WMAC has a strong field for lots of things trail running
related - mtns, ss, trail. But immediate it seems like NYC area just
doesn't even register at the national level when you include folks
from CO-NM and CA.

Very true, especially when I show up on thre radar!! 😉

-DougF

Doug Freese said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

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We have Sue
Johnson but she is Mass I think.

I think I've heard of her, but google can't find anything either.
Maybe google's on strike for running related stuff this morning.

More bad spelling it's Sue Johnston, note the T. She is from Vermont.

Yea, that works better. Thanks. Prerequisite up here is being able to
spell or pronounce "Udchachon". Actually, first name or that "tiny lady
leading all the runners" usually suffices to identify.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Seems like WMAC has a strong field for lots of things trail running
related - mtns, ss, trail. But immediate it seems like NYC area just
doesn't even register at the national level when you include folks
from CO-NM and CA.

Yikes, I just noticed my sentence structure is getting as bad as yours.
😉 Maybe your unscrambler works on my scrambling 😉

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Quoted message said:

on topic per your last cautions....this "oh so treacherous surface"
that you fierce trail runners contend with. characterize it as
dangerous all you want and until the cows come home. the bottom line?
everytime i ask you guys about shoes...you repeatedly, constantly,
allways come back with, "we all wear road running shoes". <--and
that's the disconnect, that's the problem.

I own adidas trail running shoes....hell i own a pair of the hardcore
stuff....the real trail running shoes...Salomon XA Pro Trail Running
Shoe. now i got these shoes out of "respect for the game"...the trail
running endeavor. i made a mistake i try not to do...i "assumed". i
assumed these surface conditions were "oh so treacherous" that a proper
trail running shoe would be a "must" to survive. apparently this is
not the case.

Apparently not.
Apparently, you're a sucker for marketing propaganda (-;

Do you really think one needs a special piece of equipment for every endeavor
-- a rain jacket for running in the rain, a snow jacket for running in the
snow, a pair of specialised shoes for every single distance from 5k to the
marathon ? Where does this silliness end ?

Trail races do indeed call for more rugged shoes than road races, but it just
happens that some road shoes fit the bill pretty well, because they are more
rugged than road racing shoes (flats). Then, some probably wouldn't. For
example, I wouldn't use my Mizunos on trails because rocks get caught in the
outsoles.

Road running shoes are very sturdy, stiff and cushioned. For a road race, one
could use something like the Nike Mayfly or Streak XC. The only sort of flat
I'd consider for a trail race would be a cross country flat (basically a cross
spike with a rubber bottom and no spike plate) Apparently, Dan has mentioned
that he does use such flats.

Quoted message said:

you wanna manifest some serious respect for the game? show up in nyc
without spikes for 800m or 1 mile on a track and you are seriously
disadvantaged from the start.

Bwahahahaha ... if only you'd shown up for such races (-; Seriously, a lot of
runners do just fine in these races without spikes.

Quoted message said:

ya see i "assumed" the technologies and features of these trail shoes
like the Salomon XA Pro trail shoe and all the many other bands and
flavors of trail shoes were needed and required for the conditions.

Well, that's the point of marketting isn't it -- to persuade you that you
"need" this thing or that thing. Suckerrrrrrrr ...

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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Quoted message said:

Seems like WMAC has a strong field for lots of things trail running
related - mtns, ss, trail. But immediate it seems like NYC area just
doesn't even register at the national level when you include folks
from CO-NM and CA.

I don't know of many states that can compete with California in general
for trail running. Some of the high trails snag snow and rendered not
runnable, but there are still races going all the time plus the ability
to train comfortably all year. This keeps the sport vibrant and alive 12
months. In 4 seasoned geography trail running is really a seasonal
sport. Sure one can substitute snowshoes and skis but these are fillers
for most runners. I'm sure running are fillers for snowshoes purists. 🙂
I have to resort to roads in the winter to keep training. Don't get me
wrong, I enjoy my running but I love the seasons more.

I have friends that are pure bike fans and tri geeks and they also
struggle like hell. Very few ride outside in the cold especially when we
continuously have a layer of snow and ice(especially black ice) on the
roads. Some hit the rollers but that too is perceived as a treadmill in
the winter.

So yes, we have a very small set of ultra runners, minimal races and
only a few elite runners. At least I live in the mountains and can stay
in reasonable hill shape all year.

-DF

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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I'll be there at the finish line to tear of your number

__

doug?....why would you do that?.....wait a minute....you're not hinting
to me....you're not really suggesting.......are you telling me these
races are not chipped? not even winningtime? uuuurrrrrrgggghhhhhhh!

http://escarpmenttrail.com/

This race might take some chips out of your leg bones, have you eating
woodchips after face-planting, and is sure to knock that chip off your
shoulder...

Ok Lance, you're much faster than me on roads, and on paper you should be
able to easily beat me in virtually any race, but even on my favorite
terrain? We're both starting our training again after time off with 27 weeks
to go before this race. I'll wager that I can beat you at escarpment this
year.

-Tony