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Re: How Fast can you Go?

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UK and Europe
Published
6 August 2004
Last activity
9 August 2004
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  1. Mark Thompson said:


    To stop us all feeling completely inferior hills are most definately
    allowed. Show-offs can post a speed on the flat too. We shan't


    demand

    Quoted message said:

    your top speed in the other direction too ;-)

    It's not recumbents that go fast, it's tandems!

    44mph on the kiddyback with 5yo stokid pedalling and calling out
    speeds, and 2.5yo in a baby seat on the back screaming weeeeeeeee!
    Mother was in the car behind, but her screams were inaudible :-)

    This was not a particularly long/steep hill, but around here the hills
    are either steep or long but seldom both. I've exceeded 50 on a
    two-adult tandem.

    Off the tandem, Thomas' top speed is 28mph on his Trek MT60 down Cumnor
    Hill.

    Top speed on the brompton is 38mph down Harrow-on-the-Hill fully
    loaded.

    Kind regards,
    Daren
    --
    remove outer garment for reply

  2. Quoted message said:

    44mph on the kiddyback with 5yo stokid pedalling and calling out
    speeds, and 2.5yo in a baby seat on the back screaming weeeeeeeee!
    Mother was in the car behind, but her screams were inaudible :-)

    NOt big, NOt clever ....Not even remotely F'kin funny!

    It's one thing taking stupid chances with your own life, but where kids are
    concerned; you should be completely and utterly ashamed of yourself instead
    of boasting about it >:-(

  3. LaoFuZhi <the.real.address [email hidden] thing.not.too.hard.to.work.out> wrote:
    :>44mph on the kiddyback with 5yo stokid pedalling and calling out
    :>speeds, and 2.5yo in a baby seat on the back screaming weeeeeeeee!
    :>Mother was in the car behind, but her screams were inaudible :-)

    : NOt big, NOt clever ....Not even remotely F'kin funny!

    Why? It's wasn't necessarily dangerous. Doing that round a blind bend
    would be. On a clear straight road, where's the problem.

    Arthur

    --
    Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
    "Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
    - Paulina Borsook

  4. LaoFuZhi said:

    NOt big, NOt clever ....Not even remotely F'kin funny!

    It's one thing taking stupid chances with your own life, but where kids are
    concerned; you should be completely and utterly ashamed of yourself instead
    of boasting about it >:-(

    A bit melodramatic?
    A tandem is quite capable of very high speeds, and they regularly attain
    them on hills. They're also supplied with serious brakes and extra
    strong frames and wheels to cope with the stresses, typically stresses
    caused by a pair of large /adults/, so as long as the captain is used to
    the machine doing 44 on one isn't particularly out of the ordinary.
    Were the stoker and passenger /really/ likely to come to terminal grief?
    I rather doubt it.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  5. In article <[email hidden]>, "LaoFuZhi"
    <the.real.address [email hidden]
    thing.not.too.hard.to.work.out> says...

    Quoted message said:

    NOt big, NOt clever ....Not even remotely F'kin funny!

    Perhaps this is a warning for the following paragraph...

    Quoted message said:

    It's one thing taking stupid chances with your own life, but where kids are
    concerned; you should be completely and utterly ashamed of yourself instead
    of boasting about it >:-(

    ....because otherwise I'd have to take this seriously, and I just can't
    do that!

    Jon


  6. Quoted message said:

    A bit melodramatic?

    I really cannot believe the stupid irresponsible attitude of either the
    idiot who posted this in the first place or the prize imbiciles who would
    seek to defend such an action....... It's a stupid as Michael Jackson
    dangling that child over a balcony or that half-wit who toy with his child
    near an alligator.... And I make NO apology for that or what I'm about to
    write...

    To take the lives of two young children into your hands like that is
    .....Well the English language is simply too limited to express what that
    is.... Reckless is no where near the mark... I am angry and disgusted;
    utterly disgusted.

    As cyclist we are constantly exposed to danger and constantly take our lives
    into our own hands. Both our machines and bodies are fragile. I've had to
    attend at several RTA's involving motorcycles. At relatively low speeds
    (30-50MPH) well padded and well protected adults can sustain horrific
    injuries. I've seen many broken bones and one or two guys left with
    life-changing injuries... But they're adults and that's the risk they take
    with their own bodies....

    Children thrown onto the roads at such speeds become mere rag-dolls. I've
    personally seen a three year old with half it's skull missing. Stone-dead of
    course. It was sitting unbelted in the back of an open top car when the
    vehicle ran into the side of another car that had pulled out in front of it.
    October 1986. Junction of Cardowan Road and Cumbernauld Road in Glasgow.....

    Point of impact speed was calculated at around 20MPH. The child had been
    thrown out the car and smashed it's head against the kerb at the side of the
    road. It hadn't come into contact with any vehicle....

    18 years on I still have occasional nightmares. Two cold blue dead eyes
    staring up at me from the road, The child's brain, or what was left of it
    exposed within the skull, other 'bits' lying around the road. Looked a lot
    like a smashed up bloodied doll. To you [censored] who think that this sort of
    thing isn't 'serious' or a problem or something that is likely to happen....
    You need a serious shake up...... No actually you need taken outside and
    given a good [censored]' kicking.... You absolute scum of the earth you!

    In conversation with more experienced traffic officers I've heard many tales
    of children crippled or terribly injured as a result of being strapped into
    a bicycle seat where the machine has been involved in an accident... Often a
    minor one. I have a close friend who is now a GP but spent some time working
    in casualty... And again she can recount many tales of what happens when
    tarmac impacts on a childs body.... Kids and bikes I'm all for. But under
    close supervision and careful consideration....

    But Arthur doesn't see the problem..... What if he'd hit something in the
    road? Wouldn't have to have been anything big...... A branch a rock or even
    a tin can can easily deflect a bik (tandem or otherwise) with the load of
    two children on board at that speed.....

    Peter doubts whether they'd come to grief... Well people come to grief
    frequently; usually when it's least expected. The driver of that convertible
    wasn't expecting to hit anything.... That's why she didn't strap the kid
    in! It was three months before the Psych people cleared her for Police
    interview; and I dare say that what would have been her child's 21st
    birthday this year was not a day that wnet by cheerfully.....

    And John doesn't take it seriously.... Perhaps if you people had really
    SEEN the results of a serious accident, and at 44MPH a bicycle accident is
    likely to be VERY serious....

    I am sickend by your attitudes to the point where I am wretching as I
    write....

    I'm perfectly well aware of both the capabilities of tandems and the nature
    of their design. That is utterly beside the point. As adults we have and
    should have the freedom to take such risks with our lives as we personally
    calculate reasonable. But as adults we have both a moral and legal duty of
    care over our children. Personally I would question the wisdom of using a
    baby seat on a bicycle or having such a young child as stoker on a
    tandem.... But that in itself is a matter for the individual.

    But to then take the machine to a point where it was approaching anything
    LIKE the limits of it's performance is utterly stupid, irresponsible and
    immoral...... You have a kid on the back you should bloody well be riding
    responsibly... And that ain't.....

  7. LaoFuZhi said:


    Quoted message said:

    44mph on the kiddyback with 5yo stokid pedalling and calling out
    speeds, and 2.5yo in a baby seat on the back screaming weeeeeeeee!
    Mother was in the car behind, but her screams were inaudible :-)

    NOt big, NOt clever ....Not even remotely F'kin funny!

    It's one thing taking stupid chances with your own life, but where kids are
    concerned; you should be completely and utterly ashamed of yourself instead
    of boasting about it >:-(

    It would only be taking a "stupid chance" if the rider was not in
    control or couldn't pull up safely in the distance he could see.

    John B

  8. "LaoFuZhi" <the.real.address [email hidden]
    thing.not.too.hard.to.work.out> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    <lots of stuff>

    No, you are really taking this _far_ too seriously. And if you think me
    feeling this way makes me the scum of the earth, then I am deeply sorry for
    you, and I can only suggest you either stop reading or seek help.

    Yes, people get things like this wrong. Your personal experiences sound
    truly horrific, and I am sorry that you have had them.

    However a tandem at 44mph on the road is nowhere near the limits of
    performance. Your worries are misplaced. Your 'what if' scenarios aren't the
    problem you think they are (try MTB tandeming).

    clive

  9. "LaoFuZhi" <the.real.address [email hidden]
    thing.not.too.hard.to.work.out> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    A bit melodramatic?

    To take the lives of two young children into your hands like that is

    To take the lives of his own two young children into his own hands like that
    is

    ... his business and none of yours. Make your point that you don't agree,
    call the police if you feel it is neccesary. But you went too far from
    'reasonable argument' to be considered not a troll. And giving a virtual
    'f***ing kicking' - that gives me the impression that you're the one to be
    wary of.


  10. Quoted message said:

    No, you are really taking this _far_ too seriously.

    18 years on I still have occasional nightmares. Two cold blue dead eyes
    staring up at me from the road, The child's brain, or what was left of it
    exposed within the skull, other 'bits' lying around the road. Looked a lot
    like a smashed up bloodied doll

    I don't think I'm tasking this anything like seriously enough; And it's not
    me who needs the help but the idiots who defend this particular form of
    child abuse....

    It's as well you lot are at the end of a piece of wire.... You turn my
    stomach!

  11. Quoted message said:

    .. his business and none of yours. Make your point that you don't agree,
    call the police if you feel it is neccesary. But you went too far from
    'reasonable argument' to be considered not a troll. And giving a virtual
    'f***ing kicking' - that gives me the impression that you're the one to be
    wary of.

    I've already asked a serving former colleague to look at the thread...

    as for Troll? how DARE you!. How [censored] DARE you!!!

    When someone recklessly endangers the lives of young children that is
    EVERYBODYS business;

  12. "LaoFuZhi" <the.real.address [email hidden]
    thing.not.too.hard.to.work.out> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    No, you are really taking this _far_ too seriously.

    18 years on I still have occasional nightmares. Two cold blue dead eyes
    staring up at me from the road, The child's brain, or what was left of it
    exposed within the skull, other 'bits' lying around the road. Looked a


    lot

    Quoted message said:

    like a smashed up bloodied doll

    I don't think I'm tasking this anything like seriously enough; And it's


    not

    Quoted message said:

    me who needs the help but the idiots who defend this particular form of
    child abuse....

    It's as well you lot are at the end of a piece of wire.... You turn my
    stomach!

    No, it is you who needs help. And that's not in a perjorative sense either.
    You have suffered a deeply horrific experience. Unfortunately that
    experience is affecting your life in a negative fashion.

    In this particular instance, it's causing you to lose track of how serious a
    problem actually is. You've seen the worst case scenario, and are applying
    it where it isn't due.

    clive

  13. "LaoFuZhi" <the.real.address [email hidden]
    thing.not.too.hard.to.work.out> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    .. his business and none of yours. Make your point that you don't agree,
    call the police if you feel it is neccesary. But you went too far from
    'reasonable argument' to be considered not a troll. And giving a virtual
    'f***ing kicking' - that gives me the impression that you're the one to


    be

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    wary of.

    I've already asked a serving former colleague to look at the thread...

    as for Troll? how DARE you!. How [censored] DARE you!!!

    When someone recklessly endangers the lives of young children that is
    EVERYBODYS business;

    Look, I think it's time you kill filed this thread. It's causing you a lot
    of anger, which is not going to be good for you.

    Once again, I am truly sorry that you have had the experiences which cause
    you to feel the way you do.

    cheers,
    clive


  14. Quoted message said:

    No, it is you who needs help. And that's not in a perjorative sense


    either.

    Quoted message said:

    You have suffered a deeply horrific experience. Unfortunately that
    experience is affecting your life in a negative fashion.

    No I don't. as it happens I along with several other officers who attended
    the incident did receive counselling.

    What I have personally witnessed is the direct result of someone tasking a
    stupid, pointless risk with the life of their child, and paying the price
    for it.

    Quoted message said:

    In this particular instance, it's causing you to lose track of how serious


    a

    Quoted message said:

    problem actually is. You've seen the worst case scenario, and are applying
    it where it isn't due.

    No two-wheeled vehicle is fully stable at 44MPH. Tandems, whilst quite
    capable of reaching these speeds are inherently unstable. They have neither
    the brakes nor the road contact to meet the braking standards that would be
    legally required of any other road-going vehicle capable of travelling at
    that speed. Bicycles generally are relatively easily de-stabilised. As I
    said, all it would have taken is a branch or can in the road for that to
    become a serious accident. Arguably this is an acceptable risk for two
    responsible adults to take, but for an adult to impose this upon a child is
    sickening.....

    What sickens me only slightly less is that fact that people seek to defend
    this behaviour. Ultimately it is behaviour of this nature accompanied by a
    head-in-the-sand defence that leads to the authorities wading in and
    imposing often ill-founded restrictions on those who DO behave
    responsibly....


  15. Quoted message said:

    Once again, I am truly sorry that you have had the experiences which cause
    you to feel the way you do.

    Then please, if that experience or the death of that child is to bring any
    small positive outcome bear the image in mind when considering matters that
    run the risk of a similar occurrence......

  16. LaoFuZhi <the.real.address [email hidden] thing.not.too.hard.to.work.out> wrote:

    : But Arthur doesn't see the problem.....

    I'm leaving this thread here since there's nothing that will change
    anyone's view.

    I have enormous admiration for police officers and other emergancy
    services that have to deal with such distressing incidents. I couldn't
    do that job and I have huge respect for those that do.

    Arthur

    --
    Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
    "Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
    - Paulina Borsook

  17. in message <[email hidden]>, LaoFuZhi
    ('the.real.address [email hidden]

    thing.not.too.hard.to.work.out') said:


    Quoted message said:

    A bit melodramatic?

    I really cannot believe the stupid irresponsible attitude of either
    the idiot who posted this in the first place or the prize imbiciles
    who would seek to defend such an action...

    Do you ever drive at 40mph with children in the car? What's the
    difference? What's the problem?

    Quoted message said:

    As cyclist we are constantly exposed to danger and constantly take our
    lives into our own hands.

    Bollocks. Cycling is an extremely safe mode of transport.

    Quoted message said:

    But to then take the machine to a point where it was approaching
    anything LIKE the limits of it's performance is utterly stupid,

    As other people have pointed out in this thread, pedal cycles have done
    167 miles per hour before now (drafted, admittedly, but that just
    reduces air drag - it doesn't do anything about the bicycles inherent
    stability, steering, braking or anything else). That's four times the
    speed under discussion, and the bikes used for drafting (apart from
    their gears) are not particularly specialised. The maximum speed of an
    undrafted bicycle on a flat road is around 80mph, and that is a highly
    specialised vehicle - but it's only specialised to reduce air drag,
    there's nothing particularly specialised about the steering or
    stability. 40mph is only near the performance limit of an upright
    bicycle because an upright bicycle's performance is limited by
    aerodynamic drag. It isn't limited by stability, or tyre adhesion, or
    any other safety related problem.

    Quoted message said:

    irresponsible and immoral...... You have a kid on the back you should
    bloody well be riding responsibly... And that ain't.....

    The horror story you cite was a car crash, not a bike crash. If you're
    still prepared to drive your car with kids in the back at 40mph, then
    you're not in a very good position to criticise anyone riding a bike
    with kids on the back at 40mph.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; I'd rather live in sybar-space

  18. in message <[email hidden]>, LaoFuZhi
    ('the.real.address [email hidden]

    thing.not.too.hard.to.work.out') said:
    Quoted message said:

    .. his business and none of yours. Make your point that you don't
    agree, call the police if you feel it is neccesary. But you went too
    far from 'reasonable argument' to be considered not a troll. And
    giving a virtual 'f***ing kicking' - that gives me the impression
    that you're the one to be wary of.

    I've already asked a serving former colleague to look at the thread...

    as for Troll? how DARE you!. How [censored] DARE you!!!

    When someone recklessly endangers the lives of young children that is
    EVERYBODYS business;

    You'll be turning in your driving license in the morning then, I take
    it?

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ...but have you *seen* the size of the world wide spider?

  19. "LaoFuZhi" <the.real.address [email hidden]
    thing.not.too.hard.to.work.out> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    No two-wheeled vehicle is fully stable at 44MPH. Tandems, whilst quite
    capable of reaching these speeds are inherently unstable. They have


    neither

    Quoted message said:

    the brakes nor the road contact to meet the braking standards that would


    be

    Quoted message said:

    legally required of any other road-going vehicle capable of travelling at
    that speed.

    Please don't talk such nonsense. Tandems are very stable bikes. Because of
    their greater mass, they're actually quite difficult to disturb from their
    line. And of course you can brake as hard as you like - no danger of going
    over the bars.

    44mph is _not_ very fast - I can easily do that on my daily ride route,
    given the appropriate wind. 60mph may be...

    Quoted message said:

    Bicycles generally are relatively easily de-stabilised. As I
    said, all it would have taken is a branch or can in the road for that to
    become a serious accident. Arguably this is an acceptable risk for two
    responsible adults to take, but for an adult to impose this upon a child


    is

    Quoted message said:

    sickening.....

    What magic branch in the road is this? I'm certainly capable of seeing the
    road surface further ahead than my stopping or swerving distance (despite
    the fact that the required notice for a swerve is quite a lot).
    And MTB tandem experience shows that these bikes are in fact very stable
    when it comes to single obstacles anyway. (loose surface is a different
    matter :-) )

    cheers,
    clive


  20. Quoted message said:

    Do you ever drive at 40mph with children in the car? What's the
    difference? What's the problem?

    The car has a steel shell, seatbelts, and various impact protection
    systems.... The tandem has a plastic bucket on the back...

    Quoted message said:

    Bollocks. Cycling is an extremely safe mode of transport.

    Every form of transport is dangerous... Some more than others....

    Quoted message said:

    As other people have pointed out in this thread, pedal cycles have done
    167 miles per hour before now .....

    Stop talkingt pish! We're not talking about some highly trained rider under
    near-lab conditions..... We're talking about some [censored] taking stupid risks
    with a couple of kiddie....

    Quoted message said:

    The horror story you cite was a car crash, not a bike crash. If you're
    still prepared to drive your car with kids in the back at 40mph, then
    you're not in a very good position to criticise anyone riding a bike
    with kids on the back at 40mph.

    More pish.... the incident I cited was the result of an unrestrained child
    being projected from a vehicle moving at less than half the speed cited by
    the idiot with the tandem......

    No [censored] wonder the government are so bloody anti-bike with attitudes like
    yours!

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