Re: Helmets

23 May 2005 13:22:00 -0700,
<[email hidden]>, "Maggie"

Quoted message said:

.

Quoted message said:

CARS SUCK! and the people in love with their addiction to them are
stupid enough that they should starve.

Zoot....I think you need to get out on that bike. You are getting
hostile. Or where you always this hostile. ;-)

Too many people admit loving their cars more than their kids or
spouses so I've consigned them all to the heap of worthless empty
hides posing as important [censored].

It's what cars do to people's brains that makes me detest the fossil
addicted culture and loathe its adherents.

Is that clear enough?
--
zk

Will said:

rdclark said:

Why do you think seatbelts and bicycle helmets are comparable?

Because they are both easy to use and relatively unrestricting safety
measures.

Then you have little excuse not to wear a helmet in your
car, no?

I assure you, head injuries *do* occur from motor vehicle
accidents even when occupants wear seatbelts or have air
bags (the air bag itself can cause a head injury).

Quoted message said:

I will admit I was lucky. There are definitely more dangerous things
than riding a bike. But on that particular day, when I sat addled in
the road, throwing up, it was a good thing somebody had the decency to
move me as well as the tangle of 531 double butted junk out of traffic.
Deceleration from 20 mph to 0 in about one inch is bad business.

No one is saying a head injury from a bike is less serious
than from anything else. People suffer head injuries taking
showers or painting walls or walking up stairs!

It's all a matter of risk assessment. Do you think riding
a bike is such a dangerous activity that wearing a helmet
is really prudent?

I don't think bicycling rises to that level of danger.

I could bite the dust tomorrow riding in to work from a bike
crash or someone hitting me. The accident report would almost
certainly make reference to me NOT wearing a helmet. It might
even be true that a helmet could have saved me.

However I could also meet my maker sometime this week in my
motor vehicle from a crash that causes head trauma (an off
frontal crash where my head slams into the door pillar and the
seatbelt, which I wear religiously, and air bag do no good).

No one will think "had he only been wearing a helmet" thoughts
on my demise.

SMH

Maggie said:

Zoot Katz said:

CARS SUCK! and the people in love with their addiction to them are
stupid enough that they should starve.

Zoot....I think you need to get out on that bike. You are getting
hostile. Or where you always this hostile. ;-)

And those stupid people in love with their cars that should starve???

Americans!

(Don't get him going!)

SMH

Stephen Harding said:

Then you have little excuse not to wear a helmet in your
car, no?

Good point and hard to refute. I suppose my best answer is I use the
car once a week for groceries. It's a 7 mile round trip and not bicycle
friendly or I'd tow the old BOB over (and stop eating eggs).

Quoted message said:

It's all a matter of risk assessment. Do you think riding
a bike is such a dangerous activity that wearing a helmet
is really prudent?

Very true. After I knocked myself silly, my risk assessment changed
pretty dramatically, though my addiction to riding didn't <g>.

Stephen Harding said:

...
However I could also meet my maker sometime this week in my
motor vehicle from a crash that causes head trauma (an off
frontal crash where my head slams into the door pillar and the
seatbelt, which I wear religiously, and air bag do no good).

No one will think "had he only been wearing a helmet" thoughts
on my demise.

No helmet wearer is likely to convince a diehard nonwearer to cross over
and start wearing one. I wonder if this is an age and/or demographic
issue. Do nonwearers believe in having life insurance, disability
insurance, etc? Do most nonwearers have dependent spouses and/or
children or are they more likely to be single?

To me, wearing a helmet seems like taking a reasonable precaution, like
wearing a seat belt while in a car.

"Will" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I will admit I was lucky. There are definitely more dangerous things
than riding a bike. But on that particular day, when I sat addled in
the road, throwing up, it was a good thing somebody had the decency to
move me as well as the tangle of 531 double butted junk out of traffic.
Deceleration from 20 mph to 0 in about one inch is bad business.

Wow, 20mph. So, do you think helmets are necessary at say, 10mph? Or are
helmets just necessary for those hammering rides? What about elite
marathoners? Should they be wearing helmets on their practice runs?

Cathy Kearns said:

Wow, 20mph. So, do you think helmets are necessary at say, 10mph?

Or are

Quoted message said:

helmets just necessary for those hammering rides? What about elite
marathoners? Should they be wearing helmets on their practice runs?

How fast do you think you go decending even a small hill?

And no, I don't think 20 mph constitutes hammering anything so there
was no boast intended. In fact, I imagine about half of this list
thinks 20 mph is pretty lame and something not to be discussed except
in regards to a bad day.

Might we agree that doing a header at any speed constitutes a bad day?

catzz66 said:

No helmet wearer is likely to convince a diehard nonwearer to cross

over

Quoted message said:

and start wearing one. I wonder if this is an age and/or demographic

Quoted message said:

issue. Do nonwearers believe in having life insurance, disability
insurance, etc? Do most nonwearers have dependent spouses and/or
children or are they more likely to be single?

To me, wearing a helmet seems like taking a reasonable precaution,

like

Quoted message said:

wearing a seat belt while in a car.

I don't know about the demographic questions. What I've observed is
that helmet wearers tend to be American club cyclists (it's part of the
"uniform"😉, sport cyclists who subscribe to Buycycling magazine ("Lance
wears one! And I'm using his wheels, too!"😉, socially-concerned
yuppies ("And I won't eat tuna either!"😉 and those bound by ridiculous
Mandatory Helmet Laws.

Interestingly, in my experience the people who have studied this issue
the hardest tend to be helmet skeptics. In my case, I used to be
generally in favor of bike helmets. Then I began actually reading the
research papers that evaluated their real-world performance. After a
couple years of serious study, I decided that a) bicycling is safe
enough that helmets aren't required, and b) they don't make any
significant difference anyway. (Just read how low the helmet
certification standards are. It will wake you up.)

And, BTW, I've had contact with many other people whose attitude
changed just as mine did, and for the same reason. IOW, the more you
know about this issue, the less likely you'll be a helmet fan.

- Frank Krygowski

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >

Quoted message said:

So don't bother. Cycling head injuries are rare, helmets are not
proven to prevent any meaningful proportion of serious injuries, and
there are very few "old, bold bikers" - you are probably sufficiently
skilled and risk averse to avoid a crash in the first place.

Relax and enjoy the ride :-)

I agree, I'm out most of the time in either my cotton Italia cap
by Santini or my white De Rosa cap with the rainbow world
champ stripe on it.

What I like about cotton cycling caps is that you can take a very
heavy jolt to the head and the ol cap is fine. While I have totally
destroyed two team Kelme/Costa Blanca helmets in the last
couple of seasons.

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Too many people admit loving their cars more than their kids

If I had a kid I would trade it for a Audi A6 any day.

Frank Krygowski said:

And, BTW, I've had contact with many other people whose attitude
changed just as mine did, and for the same reason. IOW, the more you
know about this issue, the less likely you'll be a helmet fan.

My story is similar to Frank's. I was pro-helmet, studied up on the
issue and now realize helmets are often silly, even for children.
Helmet promotion makes bicycling seem more dangerous than it really is.

A couple of things really clinched it for me. First, too much bicycle
safety education in the United States consists solely of the message
"Wear a helmet!" Second, traffic accidents are by far the most common
cause of head trauma by any measure -- in absolute numbers or per hour
of activity.

Here are some essays discussing helmet use in automobiles:

http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/carhelm.html
http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/nigel.html

RFM

Quoted message said:

Personally, I tend to be in favor of the sharpened steel spike on the
steering wheel, pointed at the driver's heart. But that's just me.

- Frank Krygowski

Frank does your car have a spike on the steering wheel?

Marty

catzz66 said:

To me, wearing a helmet seems like taking a reasonable precaution, like
wearing a seat belt while in a car.

That's a fair assessment.

It's just that I think people over-estimate the safety (or lack
of risk) of their automobile, while over-estimating the danger
to their health while on their bikes, thus making helmet use
prudent on the bike, but not in their autos.

I don't think bicycle use is any more dangerous to the health
of my head than car use. But it's a personal decision (or ought
to be; state and local laws too often get involved unnecessarily).

Unfortunately, I see just too much hype about how crazy one is
not wearing a helmet while on the bike. For each of my RAGBRAI
rides, where helmet use isn't enforced, I've had people ride
along next to me scolding me for not wearing a helmet. I remember
one bike club talking to themselves as they passed saying something
to the effect "there's another one who doesn't value his head".

Then we get the the "socially responsible" types who lecture me
that my not wearing a helmet raises their health insurance costs!

Wear a helmet if you want. There are times (grossly over-estimated
IMHO) where a helmet will most certainly save your head, just as it
would during a walk or in your car. Just not most of the time.

No it can't hurt to wear one. On your bike or in your auto. So
why make the point of being so selective about its use unless one
truly believes bicycling is much more dangerous than it really is?

SMH

On Mon, 23 May 2005 17:47:45 -0500, catzz66 <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

No helmet wearer is likely to convince a diehard nonwearer to cross over
and start wearing one.

Is the wrong answer. Actually most of the people I know who are
sceptics were at one time enthusiastic advocates of helmet use, and
changed in response to the overwhelming evidence that we have,
collectively, been sold a pup.

Quoted message said:

I wonder if this is an age and/or demographic
issue. Do nonwearers believe in having life insurance, disability
insurance, etc? Do most nonwearers have dependent spouses and/or
children or are they more likely to be single?

Parent, married, house owner, insured (including third-party insurance
when riding my bikes).

Quoted message said:

To me, wearing a helmet seems like taking a reasonable precaution, like
wearing a seat belt while in a car.

To me it seems like using bubble wrap to protect against gunshot
wounds.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

On 23 May 2005 19:05:26 -0700, "Fritz M" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

A couple of things really clinched it for me. First, too much bicycle
safety education in the United States consists solely of the message
"Wear a helmet!" Second, traffic accidents are by far the most common
cause of head trauma by any measure -- in absolute numbers or per hour
of activity.

Absolutely. One of our government accident surveillance schemes noted
28 "cycle safety" interventions over one year, of which 24 were helmet
promotion campaigns.

I have an evaluation of the likely efficacy of different interventions
from our Transport Research Laboratory which estimates that of the 27%
of cyclist injuries which could be mitigated or prevented by
interventions, 1% could be achieved by bicycle construction,
including cycle helmets. I have never come across any evaluation of
the merits of different cycle safety interventions which put helmets
other than last.

There was a report in one local paper about a "cycle safety"
initiative at a school which turned out to consist of helmet lockers
and nothing else. Apparently this will "allow them to cycle safely".

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

On Tue, 24 May 2005 06:02:14 GMT, Stephen Harding
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<Grzke.17366$_f7.8299@trndny01>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To me, wearing a helmet seems like taking a reasonable precaution, like
wearing a seat belt while in a car.

Quoted message said:

That's a fair assessment.

Up to a point - there is no known case where road casualty figures
have dropped in response to mandatory seat belt laws.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

On 23 May 2005 16:20:12 -0700, "Will" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

How fast do you think you go decending even a small hill?

Up to 50mph. But I travel feet first.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

catzz66 said:

Will said:

Having been over the bars and headfirst onto asphalt in the good old
days before helmets (my sewup peeled and lodged in the fork), I would
strongly urge you not to find out the HARD way. Believe me, road rash
does not compare.

Will

I'm with you, Will. I recently fell hard. The side of my head slapped
the pavement hard enough to groove and dent the helmet. I had a sore
neck for a few days, but otherwise came through with no head injury.

I have done that also. Straight over the handlebars, onto my head. Same
result as you. The only difference was, I wasn't wearing a helmet.

Peter

--
If you are careful enough in life, nothing bad -- or
good -- will ever happen to you.

Peter Keller said:

Quoted message said:

I'm with you, Will. I recently fell hard. The side of my head slapped
the pavement hard enough to groove and dent the helmet. I had a sore
neck for a few days, but otherwise came through with no head injury.

I have done that also. Straight over the handlebars, onto my head. Same
result as you. The only difference was, I wasn't wearing a helmet.

I know a lot of people feel real strongly one way or the other. All I
know is what happened to me and the way I landed, the side of my head
slapped the pavement. I had road rash on my ear and a gouged up helmet,
but it definitely made a difference for me. Maybe helmets only help in
one out of (whatever) accidents, but this was one time it helped.

On Tue, 24 May 2005 07:00:35 -0500, catzz66
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I know a lot of people feel real strongly one way or the other. All I
know is what happened to me and the way I landed, the side of my head
slapped the pavement. I had road rash on my ear and a gouged up helmet,
but it definitely made a difference for me. Maybe helmets only help in
one out of (whatever) accidents, but this was one time it helped.

The thing is, you don't know what the helmet prevented. In your case
it probably prevented a superficial scalp injury (which could arguably
have been prevented by any decent hat) and possibly concussion, which
is unpleasant but rarely life threatening.

Several people here have had collisions superficially similar to yours
and survived, with symptoms no worse than I described.

If you think it's worth the discomfort and inconvenience of wearing a
helmet all the time to prevent a once-in-several-years incidence of
pain, then feel free.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound