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Re: follow the money

Started by Ryan Cousineau · · Last activity · 25 posts · 629 views

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Road Cycling
Published
21 November 2007
Last activity
6 December 2007
Original author
Ryan Cousineau
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  1. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Mike Jacoubowsky said:
    Quoted message said:

    In the "If I did it..." version of LA's putative doping, he had a
    longstanding relationship with Dr. "Evil" Ferrari as a training
    consultant. Any money he paid to Ferrari would be as innocent as the
    cash he paid to Chris Carmichael, except that his relationship with
    Carmichael almost certainly saw money flowing the other way, owing to
    sponsorship and promotional considerations.

    So that's how money would go from Lance to the person who can provide
    the performance enhancement. Note also that in the case of autologous
    blood transfusions (or the various rbc-packing tricks that start with
    your own blood) there's no drugs to be procured at all.

    But worst of all, no team in cycling had bigger and less accountable
    funds at hand than Tailwind in general and Armstrong in particular. They
    could have hidden a team-sized doping program in their catering budget.

    EPO doesn't cost that much,

    But the money to stay silent, when the alternative is so massively
    destructive to the individual involved (the athlete whose reputation is at
    stake), has to not only be substantial but potentially without end. If Dr.
    Ferrari was involved with illegal activities regarding Lance, we're not
    talking about the cost of the treatments, we're talking about the potential
    cost of blackmail. Not, of course, if Dr. Ferrari is some sort of
    unquestionably-honorable man would go to jail for 20 years rather than
    implicate one of his former clients. But I doubt that's the case.

    Mike, firsthand witnesses who have claimed LA doped:

    Frankie Andreu
    Emma O'Reilly

    As for Dr. Ferrari, I won't question his honour, but I will point out he
    has a medical license and a sports-fitness consulting business that
    would both be jeopardized by any claim that he helped Armstrong dope.
    The thing about blackmail is that it's a very risky crime in any case,
    and in this particular situation, most of the people in a position to
    blackmail Armstrong would be effectively admitting their own complicity
    in doping.

    Now, let me be clear: I've long felt the evidence against Armstrong was
    in the realm of "enough to slander, insufficient to convict." But there
    is a rather large amount of circumstantial evidence.

    Let me put it this way: if God offered me an even-odds proposition bet
    on "Armstrong doped during his career" I'd bet the "doped" side,
    trusting of course that God would be All Fair as well as All-Knowing,
    and thus would pay off accurately. I wouldn't bet the rent money, but I
    would bet the beer and bike parts money.

    But if Vegas offered me the same odds on a proposition like "Armstrong
    will be incontrovertibly found to have doped in the next decade" with
    incontrovertible evidence being something like a personal admission, a
    criminal conviction, or, say, a consensus so strong even TK accepts it,
    then I'd bet against it. But I'd only bet the wine and peppermint mocha
    money, not the beer money.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
    Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

  2. Ryan Cousineau said:


    But if Vegas offered me the same odds on a proposition like "Armstrong
    will be incontrovertibly found to have doped in the next decade" with
    incontrovertible evidence being something like a personal admission, a
    criminal conviction, or, say, a consensus so strong even TK accepts it,
    then I'd bet against it. But I'd only bet the wine and peppermint mocha
    money, not the beer money.

    Ryan, if you just had cancer would you risk the rest of your life on
    taking drugs just for a win? Remember that he had several millions of
    dollars in the bank AT THAT POINT. He didn't need to race any more.

  3. Quoted message said:

    On Nov 20, 6:26 pm, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Remember that he had several millions of
    dollars in the bank AT THAT POINT. He didn't need to race any more.

    dumbass,

    vaughters would agree :

    "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he clearly
    has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

  4. Quoted message said:

    vaughters would agree :

    "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he clearly has
    nothing to prove - it's weird "

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    Don't send that to Lafferty unless you want him to have an
    online orgasm - especially the bit about the motorbikes with
    the refrigerated panniers. They probably just forgot about
    the blue cooler boxes.

  5. Quoted message said:

    "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he clearly
    has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    That's a fascinating link. Not just for its content, but also its lack of
    context. Well, not actually a lack of context per se, but rather nothing
    saying how the transcript was obtained. Did Vaughters or Frankie supply it,
    or was it somehow tapped into?

    --Mike Jacoubowsky
    Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReaction.com
    Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Nov 20, 6:26 pm, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Remember that he had several millions of
    dollars in the bank AT THAT POINT. He didn't need to race any more.

    dumbass,

    vaughters would agree :

    "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he clearly
    has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

  6. On Nov 21, 9:46 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he clearly
    has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    That's a fascinating link. Not just for its content, but also its lack of
    context. Well, not actually a lack of context per se, but rather nothing
    saying how the transcript was obtained. Did Vaughters or Frankie supply it,
    or was it somehow tapped into?

    dumbass,

    my guess is andreu (or possibly his wife) supplied it.

    andreu also taped his conversation with stapleton, where stapleton
    tries to convince andreu to get his wife to retract the hospital bed
    story in order to discredit walsh.

    http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.com/2007/09/hidden-agendas-secret-tapes-and.html

    the link to the tapes is here :

    http://www.dailypelotonforums.com/main/index.php?showtopic=5895

  7. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Nov 21, 9:46 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he clearly
    has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    That's a fascinating link. Not just for its content, but also its lack of
    context. Well, not actually a lack of context per se, but rather nothing
    saying how the transcript was obtained. Did Vaughters or Frankie supply
    it,
    or was it somehow tapped into?

    dumbass,

    my guess is andreu (or possibly his wife) supplied it.

    Man! Why would you be so stupid? It was pirated off of the internet since
    that was a cell message exchange between Vaughters and Andreu. I understand
    that you post to see your name in print but nevertheless it would be nice if
    you actually knew what you talked about.

  8. In article
    <[email hidden]
    egroups.com>,

    Quoted post said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Nov 20, 6:26 pm, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Remember that he had several millions of
    dollars in the bank AT THAT POINT. He didn't need to race any more.

    dumbass,

    vaughters would agree :

    "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he clearly
    has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    TGTBT. Is this real? Is it 1 April?
    Text messaging a bunch of doping accusations.
    There is more to this. For starters: is this real?

    --
    Michael Press

  9. Michael Press said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]
    egroups.com>,

    Quoted post said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Nov 20, 6:26 pm, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Remember that he had several millions of
    dollars in the bank AT THAT POINT. He didn't need to race any more.


    dumbass,

    vaughters would agree :

    "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he clearly
    has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    TGTBT. Is this real? Is it 1 April?
    Text messaging a bunch of doping accusations.
    There is more to this. For starters: is this real?

    He could test positive for Viagra.

  10. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he clearly
    has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    TGTBT. Is this real? Is it 1 April?
    Text messaging a bunch of doping accusations.
    There is more to this. For starters: is this real?

    --
    Michael Press

    Your reaction is the same as mine. So far, I haven't been able to figure it
    out. Seems very strange that it didn't get more play at the time, if, in
    fact, it is real.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

  11. Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Nov 21, 9:46 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    > "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he clearly
    > has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's a fascinating link. Not just for its content, but also its lack of
    context. Well, not actually a lack of context per se, but rather nothing
    saying how the transcript was obtained. Did Vaughters or Frankie supply
    it,
    or was it somehow tapped into?

    Quoted message said:

    dumbass,

    Quoted message said:

    my guess is andreu (or possibly his wife) supplied it.

    Man! Why would you be so stupid? It was pirated off of the internet since
    that was a cell message exchange between Vaughters and Andreu. I understand
    that you post to see your name in print but nevertheless it would be nice if
    you actually knew what you talked about.

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20060913-9999-1s13landis.html

    "Andreu's wife, Betsy, brought an excerpt of the IM with her when she
    testified at the Dallas arbitration hearing in February.

    (Frankie) Andreu signed an affidavit vouching for the IM's
    authenticity."

  12. In article
    <[email hidden]
    egroups.com>,

    Quoted post said:
    Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Nov 21, 9:46 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:
    > > "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he clearly
    > > has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    Quoted message said:

    > >http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    Quoted message said:

    > That's a fascinating link. Not just for its content, but also its lack of
    > context. Well, not actually a lack of context per se, but rather nothing
    > saying how the transcript was obtained. Did Vaughters or Frankie supply
    > it,
    > or was it somehow tapped into?

    Quoted message said:

    dumbass,

    Quoted message said:

    my guess is andreu (or possibly his wife) supplied it.

    Man! Why would you be so stupid? It was pirated off of the internet since
    that was a cell message exchange between Vaughters and Andreu. I understand
    that you post to see your name in print but nevertheless it would be nice if
    you actually knew what you talked about.

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20060913-9999-1s13landis.html

    "Andreu's wife, Betsy, brought an excerpt of the IM with her when she
    testified at the Dallas arbitration hearing in February.

    (Frankie) Andreu signed an affidavit vouching for the IM's
    authenticity."

    Is this an example of "bunch culture?"

    Even if that alleged transcript accurately renders an
    exchange between the two parties we seem to have a
    clear-cut case of competitive, boys-will-be-boys,
    back-stabbing, hissy-fit, character assassination.

    My impression is that the conversation was staged for
    third parties.

    --
    Michael Press

  13. Michael Press said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]
    egroups.com>,

    Quoted post said:
    Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > On Nov 21, 9:46 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]>
    > wrote:
    >> > "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he clearly
    >> > has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> >http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> That's a fascinating link. Not just for its content, but also its lack of
    >> context. Well, not actually a lack of context per se, but rather nothing
    >> saying how the transcript was obtained. Did Vaughters or Frankie supply
    >> it,
    >> or was it somehow tapped into?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > dumbass,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > my guess is andreu (or possibly his wife) supplied it.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Man! Why would you be so stupid? It was pirated off of the internet since
    that was a cell message exchange between Vaughters and Andreu. I understand
    that you post to see your name in print but nevertheless it would be nice if
    you actually knew what you talked about.

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20060913-9999-1s13landis.html

    Quoted message said:

    "Andreu's wife, Betsy, brought an excerpt of the IM with her when she
    testified at the Dallas arbitration hearing in February.

    Quoted message said:

    (Frankie) Andreu signed an affidavit vouching for the IM's
    authenticity."

    Is this an example of "bunch culture?"

    Even if that alleged transcript accurately renders an
    exchange between the two parties we seem to have a
    clear-cut case of competitive, boys-will-be-boys,
    back-stabbing, hissy-fit, character assassination.

    maybe andreu never even took EPO in 1999 is and just saying he did to
    make armstrong look bad.

  14. Quoted message said:

    maybe andreu never even took EPO in 1999 is and just saying he did to
    make armstrong look bad.

    That's so absurd that bringing it up almost seems believable.

    --Mike Jacoubowsky
    Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReaction.com
    Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Michael Press said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]
    egroups.com>,

    Quoted post said:

    On Nov 22, 8:26 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
    > <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    >news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    > > On Nov 21, 9:46 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]>
    > > wrote:
    > >> > "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he
    > >> > clearly
    > >> > has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    Quoted message said:

    > >> >http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    Quoted message said:

    > >> That's a fascinating link. Not just for its content, but also its
    > >> lack of
    > >> context. Well, not actually a lack of context per se, but rather
    > >> nothing
    > >> saying how the transcript was obtained. Did Vaughters or Frankie
    > >> supply
    > >> it,
    > >> or was it somehow tapped into?

    Quoted message said:

    > > dumbass,

    Quoted message said:

    > > my guess is andreu (or possibly his wife) supplied it.

    Quoted message said:

    > Man! Why would you be so stupid? It was pirated off of the internet
    > since
    > that was a cell message exchange between Vaughters and Andreu. I
    > understand
    > that you post to see your name in print but nevertheless it would be
    > nice if
    > you actually knew what you talked about.

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20060913-9999-1s13landis.html

    Quoted message said:

    "Andreu's wife, Betsy, brought an excerpt of the IM with her when she
    testified at the Dallas arbitration hearing in February.

    Quoted message said:

    (Frankie) Andreu signed an affidavit vouching for the IM's
    authenticity."

    Is this an example of "bunch culture?"

    Even if that alleged transcript accurately renders an
    exchange between the two parties we seem to have a
    clear-cut case of competitive, boys-will-be-boys,
    back-stabbing, hissy-fit, character assassination.

    maybe andreu never even took EPO in 1999 is and just saying he did to
    make armstrong look bad.

  15. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Nov 21, 9:46 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:
    > > "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he clearly
    > > has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    Quoted message said:

    > >http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    Quoted message said:

    > That's a fascinating link. Not just for its content, but also its lack
    > of
    > context. Well, not actually a lack of context per se, but rather
    > nothing
    > saying how the transcript was obtained. Did Vaughters or Frankie
    > supply
    > it,
    > or was it somehow tapped into?

    Quoted message said:

    dumbass,

    Quoted message said:

    my guess is andreu (or possibly his wife) supplied it.

    Man! Why would you be so stupid? It was pirated off of the internet since
    that was a cell message exchange between Vaughters and Andreu. I
    understand
    that you post to see your name in print but nevertheless it would be nice
    if
    you actually knew what you talked about.

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20060913-9999-1s13landis.html

    "Andreu's wife, Betsy, brought an excerpt of the IM with her when she
    testified at the Dallas arbitration hearing in February.

    (Frankie) Andreu signed an affidavit vouching for the IM's
    authenticity."

    When was this released from the court?

  16. "Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]
    egroups.com>,

    Quoted post said:
    Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    > On Nov 21, 9:46 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]>
    > wrote:
    >> > "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he
    >> > clearly
    >> > has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    >> >http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    >> That's a fascinating link. Not just for its content, but also its
    >> lack of
    >> context. Well, not actually a lack of context per se, but rather
    >> nothing
    >> saying how the transcript was obtained. Did Vaughters or Frankie
    >> supply
    >> it,
    >> or was it somehow tapped into?

    > dumbass,

    > my guess is andreu (or possibly his wife) supplied it.

    Man! Why would you be so stupid? It was pirated off of the internet
    since
    that was a cell message exchange between Vaughters and Andreu. I
    understand
    that you post to see your name in print but nevertheless it would be
    nice if
    you actually knew what you talked about.

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20060913-9999-1s13landis.html

    "Andreu's wife, Betsy, brought an excerpt of the IM with her when she
    testified at the Dallas arbitration hearing in February.

    (Frankie) Andreu signed an affidavit vouching for the IM's
    authenticity."

    Is this an example of "bunch culture?"

    Even if that alleged transcript accurately renders an
    exchange between the two parties we seem to have a
    clear-cut case of competitive, boys-will-be-boys,
    back-stabbing, hissy-fit, character assassination.

    My impression is that the conversation was staged for
    third parties.

    Sort of the thing that people like Amit would depict as nothing but fact
    while if anyone did that to him he would want to sue. But it certainly does
    demonstrate the level of maturity missing from him and his sort.

  17. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    maybe andreu never even took EPO in 1999 is and just saying he did to
    make armstrong look bad.

    Strange - Andreu was saying that HE took EPO so that apparently means that
    Armstrong took EPO. Nice logic you demonstrate.

  18. Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    maybe andreu never even took EPO in 1999 is and just saying he did to
    make armstrong look bad.

    Strange - Andreu was saying that HE took EPO so that apparently means that
    Armstrong took EPO. Nice logic you demonstrate.

    dumbass,

    armstrong is as pure as the driven snow, but cycling is a team sport,
    so if his teamate took epo he should be disqualified.

  19. email hidden said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Nov 20, 6:26 pm, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Remember that he had several millions of
    dollars in the bank AT THAT POINT. He didn't need to race any more.

    dumbass,

    vaughters would agree :

    "Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the [censored] when he clearly
    has nothing to prove - it's weird "

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    Yeah.

  20. On Nov 23, 10:58 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    maybe andreu never even took EPO in 1999 is and just saying he did to
    make armstrong look bad.

    Quoted message said:

    Strange - Andreu was saying that HE took EPO so that apparently means that
    Armstrong took EPO. Nice logic you demonstrate.

    dumbass,

    armstrong is as pure as the driven snow, but cycling is a team sport,
    so if his teamate took epo he should be disqualified.

    try to include "just kidding" and smiley faces when appropriate. You
    never know when a french lawyer may be reading.

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