Re: Fish Oil Processing

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

I wasn't aware of this study. I agree with you that if those results
can be extrapolated to larger populations, whey protein shouldn't be
taken alone. My guess is that taking whey protein with some kind of
fat would probably help considerably in the hyperinsulinemia
department. What do you think?

--
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are
cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt"
-- Bertrand Russell

There is a big surprise.

Not really.

Quoted message said:

Imagine, taking a protein away from all its
"supporting structures" (right Will?)

Errr, right.

Quoted message said:

yielding an effect that wouldn't
occur if the whole was consumed.

Oh brother, just when i thought we were making progress with you.

Quoted message said:

Hey Will, whey powder must be even better than -- it cranks up the
insulin to drive more aminos into the blood!

Which is one reason people use whey post workout.

--
Will Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com

email hidden said:

Quoted message said:

I wasn't aware of this study. I agree with you that if those results
can be extrapolated to larger populations, whey protein shouldn't be
taken alone. My guess is that taking whey protein with some kind of
fat would probably help considerably in the hyperinsulinemia
department. What do you think?

--
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are
cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt"
-- Bertrand Russell

There is a big surprise. Imagine, taking a protein away from all its
"supporting structures" (right Will?) yielding an effect that wouldn't
occur if the whole was consumed.

And exactly how many people just take fish oil caps by themselves,
care to tell? It's called a *SUPPLEMENT* after all!

--
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are
cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt"
-- Bertrand Russell

email hidden said:

Just Cocky said:

email hidden said:

Also, are you familiar with the DHA-accelerated aging hypothesis?

Never heard a word about it.

--
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are
cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt"
-- Bertrand Russell

Here, take a read through here:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/crsociety/message/2905

Two things regarding PMID 9168456:

1) Humans aren't rats; otherwise, things like cancer had already been
cured long ago in humans.

2) Humans don't consume a diet in which 10% is composed of a single
oil (how wonder how many kilograms of DHA a day this would translate
to humans!)

Conclusion: you made up the "DHA-accelerated aging hypothesis"

--
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are
cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt"
-- Bertrand Russell

"JMW" <[email hidden]> schreef:

Quoted message said:

Whey is used almost solely by persons engaged in resistance training,
and if properly used, it is usually consumed contemporaneously with
that training. In such cases, an insulin spike is beneficial.

And if there are still people who dont believe this, then have you ever
wondered why so many *profesionnal* bodybuilders resort to Humalin -R?

Personally, i hate the stuff, but having an insuline spike at certain times
to be beneficial...

----
Pete

Quoted message said:

Conclusion: you made up the "DHA-accelerated aging hypothesis"

--
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are
cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt"
-- Bertrand Russell

I didn't make it up. I found it online. I've also just did a quick
scan on PubMed and did find lots of negative effects of fish oil
consumption. Then again, mostly done on rats!

email hidden said:

Quoted message said:

Conclusion: you made up the "DHA-accelerated aging hypothesis"

--
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are
cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt"
-- Bertrand Russell

I didn't make it up. I found it online.

I read the post whose link you provided. I didn't see such hypothesis
there or even in the study being commented on.

Quoted message said:

I've also just did a quick scan on PubMed and did find lots of negative
effects of fish oil consumption.

Feel free to post the PMID's.

Quoted message said:

Then again, mostly done on rats!

--
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are
cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt"
-- Bertrand Russell

Quoted message said:

There is a big surprise. Imagine, taking a protein away from all its
"supporting structures" (right Will?) yielding an effect that wouldn't
occur if the whole was consumed.

That's not true, either. If you read the study, it indicates that milk
and cheese trigger a similar, but less intense, insulin response as
whey.

Quoted message said:

Hey Will, whey powder must be even better than -- it cranks up the
insulin to drive more aminos into the blood! Kick ass! I can't
believe whey isn't making us all steroid hyoooge!

Hang on a sec... You're taking the information out of context.

Bodybuilders aren't likely to experience the same problem with
hyperinulinemia as couch potatoes. Exercise increases glucose uptake,
which means having more insulin present to allow transport of glucose
into cells may not be a problem. In fact, bodybuilders take advantage
of this ability without experiencing insulin resistance.

Folks that don't get regular exercise, or have an impairment of glucose
metabolism/insulin resistance should probably cut back on whey/dairy
*if* it makes them gain weight in the form of adipose tissue, or causes
cardiovascular/inflammatory markers to signal caution.

You really should get off that high horse, step back a bit, and
understand the bigger picture given specific circumstances.

Just Cocky said:

I wasn't aware of this study. I agree with you that if those results
can be extrapolated to larger populations, whey protein shouldn't be
taken alone. My guess is that taking whey protein with some kind of
fat would probably help considerably in the hyperinsulinemia
department. What do you think?

Certainly might help as would greater intake of fiber. Like I pointed
out elsewhere in this thread, folks who get regular exercise/bodybuild
are less likely to have a problem with the additional insulin and
glucose because exercised muscles allow greater uptake.

However, couch potatoes -- and folks with impairments to glucose
metabolism/insulin resistance -- should probably be more cautious about
their whey intake, especially if they find themselves increasing
adipose tissue or get warnings on blood tests that measure
cardiovascular/inflammatory markers.

JMW said:

Whey is used almost solely by persons engaged in resistance training,

Huh? Maybe in your own imagination, it is. In reality, whey is used by
folks who don't exercise at all, and (perhaps mistakenly) by folks with
impairments to glucose metabolism.

Quoted message said:

and if properly used, it is usually consumed contemporaneously with
that training. In such cases, an insulin spike is beneficial.

Gee. No duh. I just got thru explaining that elsewhere.

Quoted message said:

Your scenario is not consistent with reality.

You must be living in an alternate universe, then.

Just Cocky said:

1) Humans aren't rats;

True. But rats *are* an excellent model for research that can often be
extended to humans.

Quoted message said:

otherwise, things like cancer had already been
cured long ago in humans.

Of course, you completely ignore thousands of rat research studies that
*did* successfully translate into medications and treatments for
humans, including treatments for cancer.

italiangm said:

JMW said:

Whey is used almost solely by persons engaged in resistance training,

Huh? Maybe in your own imagination, it is. In reality, whey is used by
folks who don't exercise at all, and (perhaps mistakenly) by folks with
impairments to glucose metabolism.

Quoted message said:

and if properly used, it is usually consumed contemporaneously with
that training. In such cases, an insulin spike is beneficial.

Gee. No duh. I just got thru explaining that elsewhere.

Quoted message said:

Your scenario is not consistent with reality.

You must be living in an alternate universe, then.

Alternate universe sounds about right. The acoustics there are,
unfortunately, good enough that he can still be heard on this Earth.

Damn the luck.

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

italiangm said:

JMW said:

Whey is used almost solely by persons engaged in resistance training,

Huh? Maybe in your own imagination, it is. In reality, whey is used by
folks who don't exercise at all, and (perhaps mistakenly) by folks with
impairments to glucose metabolism.

Pure whey? In what products?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and if properly used, it is usually consumed contemporaneously with
that training. In such cases, an insulin spike is beneficial.

Gee. No duh. I just got thru explaining that elsewhere.

I wrote that yesterday. Please forgive my failure to discuss in
detail the expression and translocation of GLUT4 transporters and
initiation of mTOR signaling.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your scenario is not consistent with reality.

You must be living in an alternate universe, then.

Once again: in what products are all these couch potatoes consuming
pure whey?

JMWhey-off-base said:

italiangm said:

JMW said:

Whey is used almost solely by persons engaged in resistance training,

Huh? Maybe in your own imagination, it is. In reality, whey is used by
folks who don't exercise at all, and (perhaps mistakenly) by folks with
impairments to glucose metabolism.

Pure whey?

You love the add-on. Steve mentions room and you say chat room.
italiangm offers whey and you say pure whey.

Pure idiot?

Garth: NO whey!
Wayne: Whey!

Quoted message said:

In what products?

How about a great big box of "JMW is annoying as hell"?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and if properly used, it is usually consumed contemporaneously with
that training. In such cases, an insulin spike is beneficial.

Gee. No duh. I just got thru explaining that elsewhere.

I wrote that yesterday. Please forgive my failure to discuss in
detail the expression and translocation of GLUT4 transporters and
initiation of mTOR signaling.

And how about STFU1 transporters and initiation of pITA signaling?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your scenario is not consistent with reality.

You must be living in an alternate universe, then.

Once again:

Yes, once again! Once again: You are a monumental fussbudget and a
colossal jerk.

Quoted message said:

in what produ<snip>

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

On 11 Jun 2006 16:41:22 -0700, "italiangm" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Just Cocky said:

1) Humans aren't rats;

True. But rats *are* an excellent model for research that can often be
extended to humans.

Less often than not, I'd say. I don't deny their usefulness but what
is true for a rat more often than not is not true for a human.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

otherwise, things like cancer had already been
cured long ago in humans.

Of course, you completely ignore thousands of rat research studies that
*did* successfully translate into medications and treatments for
humans, including treatments for cancer.

And what is the percentage of successful translations compared to the
total number of studies?

--
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are
cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt"
-- Bertrand Russell

In article <[email hidden]>,

italiangm said:

JMW said:

Whey is used almost solely by persons engaged in resistance training,

Huh? Maybe in your own imagination, it is.

Wrong.

Quoted message said:

In reality, whey is used by
folks who don't exercise at all,

Also wrong

--
Will Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com

In article <[email hidden]>,

italiangm said:

Quoted message said:

There is a big surprise. Imagine, taking a protein away from all its
"supporting structures" (right Will?) yielding an effect that wouldn't
occur if the whole was consumed.

That's not true, either. If you read the study, it indicates that milk
and cheese trigger a similar, but less intense, insulin response as
whey.

Quoted message said:

Hey Will, whey powder must be even better than -- it cranks up the
insulin to drive more aminos into the blood! Kick ass! I can't
believe whey isn't making us all steroid hyoooge!

Hang on a sec... You're taking the information out of context.

That's all he ever does.

Quoted message said:

Bodybuilders aren't likely to experience the same problem with
hyperinulinemia as couch potatoes. Exercise increases glucose uptake,
which means having more insulin present to allow transport of glucose
into cells may not be a problem. In fact, bodybuilders take advantage
of this ability without experiencing insulin resistance.

Folks that don't get regular exercise, or have an impairment of glucose
metabolism/insulin resistance should probably cut back on whey/dairy

Dairy intake is correlated to weight reduction, not weight increases.
Calcium supps don't appear to have the effect, thus it's not just the
calcium content of the dairy. Additional mechanisms by which whey may
improve weight loss:

http://brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?acatid=3&aid=11

--
Will Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com

In article <[email hidden]>,

italiangm said:

Just Cocky said:

1) Humans aren't rats;

True. But rats *are* an excellent model for research that can often be
extended to humans.

Depends. They often make a useless model to extend to humans, thus why
no researcher worth his salt extrapolates rat studies to humans and
requires in vivo human data before making any human based conclusions.

--
Will Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com

JMW said:

Once again: in what products are all these couch potatoes consuming
pure whey?

The phrase "pure whey" is meaningless in this discussion. Whey used in
this example is obtained from separating whey liquid from solid casein
curd. In cases where whey is a powder, liquid whey is dehydrated.

In the study, they mention whey, milk and cheese. They also refer to
the whey component in milk and cheese as producing an insulin spike,
just not to the same degree as whey.

And finally, whey appears in all kinds of products. Cottage cheese,
meal replacement powders and liquids, protein and energy bars, even
cold cut meats. The list goes on and on. Folks who are normoglycemic,
glucose intolerant, and diabetic who don't exercise at all consume
these products containing whey all the time. Diabetics frequently add
whey to low carb recipes.

The point is that these folks who add whey, and don't exercise, check
their glucose and feel good about what they see. However, the insulin
spike they get from whey consumption may be the reason why their
glucose is under control. That insulin spike may also be a key reason
why risk markers such as Lp(a), homocysteine, and hs-CRP and other
indicators of inflammation aren't going down as one would expect when
one maintains good glucose control.

Will Brink said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"italiangm" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Folks that don't get regular exercise, or have an impairment of glucose
metabolism/insulin resistance should probably cut back on whey/dairy

Dairy intake is correlated to weight reduction, not weight increases.
Calcium supps don't appear to have the effect, thus it's not just the
calcium content of the dairy. Additional mechanisms by which whey may
improve weight loss:

Yeah for normoglycemic folks. Not true for folks that have metabolic
impairments related to glucose.

Just Cocky said:

Less often than not, I'd say. I don't deny their usefulness but what
is true for a rat more often than not is not true for a human.

Not so. In situations where rat model is akin to human model, more
often than not.

Quoted message said:

And what is the percentage of successful translations compared to the
total number of studies?

At least greater than 50%. And I'm being gratuitously conservative.