Re: Effective liver cleanse?

In said:

I doubt any oncologists would be interested it it's anecdotal.

You have no idea.

There are hordes of grad students out literally beating
the bushes all over the world looking for folk remedies.

A very old friend has spent his entire post-doctoral
career looking for natural products with anticancer
properties, with "collecting trips" every year to all
parts of the world.

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

In said:

I am a perfect example of someone who rarely (if ever) gets a cold.

Avoiding human contact except via the Internet is quite effective.

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

In said:

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 7/20/2003 8:03 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have
you ever spent time with a transplant recipient or someone with AIDS?

NO!

I don't know why you needed to shout. I was just wondering if you had
ever had a close association with anyone with a severely diminished
immune system.

It's offensive to even suggest that Jan would have anything
at all to do with one of /those/ people!

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

Singingfem said:

Searching for a good liver/gall bladder cleanse. Any recs?

I'm just curious...
Why do reputable doctors who apparently have a lot of medical knowledge
find it worth their valuable time to hang around on a natural healing
forum and tell everybody that these methods have no merit? Don't the
real doctors have patients to write prescriptions for? They are very
busy professionals with lots of things to do. Why don't they just let
all of us gullible fools use our worthless home remedies without their
help? Clearly we are too stupid to believe their superior training and
logic anyway.

So if these things are not coming out of the gall bladder where are they
coming from?
(There's no way on earth you are going to pass a 3cm ball shaped stone
through the urinal opening)
I think someone has been misquoted somewhere.
Stated that these stones are 10-30mm, so they can't be spherical in shape.
Also it's stated that the flush causes stones to be passed.
So where are these stones coming from?
Anth

"Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Singingfem said:

Searching for a good liver/gall bladder cleanse. Any recs?

I'm just curious...
Why do reputable doctors who apparently have a lot of medical knowledge
find it worth their valuable time to hang around on a natural healing
forum and tell everybody that these methods have no merit?

Possibly for the same reason they became doctors in the first place,

because

Quoted message said:

they care about people. Why do you think it is wrong for a _Retired_

physician

Quoted message said:

(cancer surgeon) like Peter Moran to offer an expert opinion on the topic?

Do you think it is wrong to point out that the Gallbladder duct is under

5mm?

Quoted message said:

Do you think it is wrong to ask a person to consider how 500ml of 10-30mm
stones could fit into something about 50ml in size?

Clearly, you have many important considerations to embrace, a good

starting

Quoted message said:

point would be basic Anatomy & Physiology.

The doctors are here for a variety of reasons.
Maybe
They do care.
They don't agree with their science methodologies 100%
Deep down they know that some therapies work, but they are blocked by
science and ethics to accept this.
Also a lot of the stuff in here fine tunes debating skills (believe it no
not)
They are all human and they have wonder.
Anth
[snipped]

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So if these things are not coming out of the gall bladder where are they
coming from?
(There's no way on earth you are going to pass a 3cm ball shaped stone
through the urinal opening)
I think someone has been misquoted somewhere.
Stated that these stones are 10-30mm, so they can't be spherical in shape.
Also it's stated that the flush causes stones to be passed.
So where are these stones coming from?
Anth

They're coming from the ingredients of the liver/gall bladder cleanse
as normal fecal matter.

Ilsa9 said:

Quoted message said:

Singingfem said:

Searching for a good liver/gall bladder cleanse. Any recs?

I'm just curious...
Why do reputable doctors who apparently have a lot of medical knowledge
find it worth their valuable time to hang around on a natural healing
forum and tell everybody that these methods have no merit?

Possibly for the same reason they became doctors in the first place, because
they care about people. Why do you think it is wrong for a _Retired_ physician
(cancer surgeon) like Peter Moran to offer an expert opinion on the topic?

Do you think it is wrong to point out that the Gallbladder duct is under 5mm?
Do you think it is wrong to ask a person to consider how 500ml of 10-30mm
stones could fit into something about 50ml in size?

Clearly, you have many important considerations to embrace, a good starting
point would be basic Anatomy & Physiology.

It is not my concern whether making an observation is wrong. I'm just
wondering why everybody here keeps banging their foolish heads against
the same brick wall over and over. What's the point?

There are a few good usenet discussion groups, such as the one that I
use for advice on keeping my Dodge minivans running properly, and
learning about harmonica and saxophone playing. But this group is
pretty lame. I have been checking in here every 2 or 3 years since
1995, and it's the same thing every time. About 90% of what happens
here is foolish bickering and arrogant posturing. I heard more
intelligent debates on the playground in second grade. The only group
I've ever seen that's worse than this is alt.insult, but they have an
excuse.

The point that I am trying to make is that for those who want to
intelligently discuss natural health, isn't there a better place to go
where you don't have to filter through all of the BS from the AMA
crowd? And why is it allowed to be a problem anyway? Isn't anybody
smart enough to ignore these people so they will go away? What would
happen if nobody ever responded to a post that was disparaging to the
concept of natural healing?

Not only that, but if Mr. Retired Cancer Surgeon cares so much about
people, maybe he could go back to work on a volunteer basis. Cancer is
increasing at a steady rate every year, and there are people lined up at
the doctors' doors. Why waste time arguing online with a bunch of other
no-action big-talkers?

One other thing, as soon as I correct my woeful lack of knowledge of
anatomy, I'll let you know so you can tell everybody here that I'm good
enough to argue with you.

See? Isn't this silly? By the way, I already answered the original
question via email. I hope this person feels better soon.

Robbie

In article <[email hidden]>,

Robbie and Laura Reynolds said:

I have been checking in here every 2 or 3 years since
1995, and it's the same thing every time. About 90% of what happens
here is foolish bickering and arrogant posturing. I heard more
intelligent debates on the playground in second grade. The only group
I've ever seen that's worse than this is alt.insult, but they have an
excuse.

It's true that the signal-to-noise ratio here is not that great much
of the time. However, intelligent use of a killfile helps a lot.
(That's true of most newsgroups, really -- you just have to hang
around for a little while and see who's a waste of bandwidth.)

Quoted message said:

The point that I am trying to make is that for those who want to
intelligently discuss natural health, isn't there a better place to go
where you don't have to filter through all of the BS from the AMA
crowd?

Ooh, ooh, the "BS from the AMA crowd!" Those villains! Must be nice
to be you, and have all the answers. But if you have all the answers,
you don't need to ask any questions, and you certainly don't need to
hang out here on m.h.a. I'm sure there are many other newsgroups
where your whiny attitude would be ever so welcome.

Quoted message said:

And why is it allowed to be a problem anyway? Isn't anybody
smart enough to ignore these people so they will go away? What would
happen if nobody ever responded to a post that was disparaging to the
concept of natural healing?

It would be the end of m.h.a as we know it. But on the other hand,
you seem to be saying that all pro-alt posts, no matter how idiotic,
should be greeted with hosannas. Which is a pretty stupid idea, but
it's the logical outcome of your attitude.

Quoted message said:

One other thing, as soon as I correct my woeful lack of knowledge of
anatomy, I'll let you know so you can tell everybody here that I'm good
enough to argue with you.

It'll be clear enough from your statements whether you are or not.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Effective liver cleanse?
From: [email hidden] (David Wright)
Date: 7/20/2003 2:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

In article <[email hidden]>,

Robbie and Laura Reynolds said:

I have been checking in here every 2 or 3 years since
1995, and it's the same thing every time. About 90% of what happens
here is foolish bickering and arrogant posturing. I heard more
intelligent debates on the playground in second grade. The only group
I've ever seen that's worse than this is alt.insult, but they have an
excuse.

It's true that the signal-to-noise ratio here is not that great much
of the time. However, intelligent use of a killfile helps a lot.
(That's true of most newsgroups, really -- you just have to hang
around for a little while and see who's a waste of bandwidth.)

Quoted message said:

The point that I am trying to make is that for those who want to
intelligently discuss natural health, isn't there a better place to go
where you don't have to filter through all of the BS from the AMA
crowd?

Ooh, ooh, the "BS from the AMA crowd!" Those villains! Must be nice
to be you, and have all the answers.

There's an excellent example of the debunker group. Just where was anything
said about having all the answers?

Quoted message said:

But if you have all the answers,
you don't need to ask any questions,

There's an excellent example of the debunker group. Just where was anything
said about having all the answers?

Quoted message said:

whiny attitude

LOL.

You forgot:

Delusional,, credibility,, low self esteem,, narcissistic, ,
completefool,,dysfunctional thinking, ,pathologic,, hypocrisy,, with all
duerespect,, Iunderstand you think,, anxiety attacks,, reading
comphrension, ,littleinsight,, don't think highly of yourself,, the person
making theclaim islying,, the major problems of this newsgroup,, incredible
story,,ifI wereyou, I'll let the reader decide,, self image,, difficult for
youtounderstand,, your own intolerance,, ridig idelogous,, they often act,,
Irealize,, it is sad,, I have demonstrated,,

Quoted message said:

it's the logical outcome of your attitude.

Oh that we all could have the delightful attitude of David.

Mr. Grump.

Jan

Rich said:

Robbie and Laura Reynolds said:

Singingfem said:

Searching for a good liver/gall bladder cleanse. Any recs?

I'm just curious...
Why do reputable doctors who apparently have a lot of medical knowledge
find it worth their valuable time to hang around on a natural healing
forum and tell everybody that these methods have no merit?

Don't you think that it is reputable for a physician to express
his/her opinion about various alternative health practices??

Don't the

Quoted message said:

real doctors have patients to write prescriptions for?

If they are still working yes but they still may have some time to
post here. Others may be retired.

They are very

Quoted message said:

busy professionals with lots of things to do.

How do you know if the physicians who post here are busy with lots of
things to do?? Do you feel the same about chiropractors who post in
this newsgroup??

Quoted message said:

Why don't they just let
all of us gullible fools use our worthless home remedies without their
help?

Because they have an interest in providing information which people
can use to make an informed decision. If you only hear one side (the
pro-alt) of the story you may be misled and make a bad decision.

Quoted message said:

Clearly we are too stupid to believe their superior training and
logic anyway.

There are some people who are too stupid or too deluded such that
providing information would be useless in changing their mind.

However there may be others who are open minded and intelligent and
would appreciate hearing the opinion of someone with extensive
conventional medical training. Only those who are insecure about their
opinions would want to stifle the free expression of opinions by
conventional doctors or other health professionals in this newsgroup.

I am certainly not interested in stifling anybody. I'm just wondering
about the motivations of the people who post here. Obviously this
group's members are very intent on what they are saying. Regular usenet
contibutors are very energetic by nature, and are usually quite adamant
in their opinions. I could never hope to go up against such an
overwhelming drive and actually stifle anybody.

This is indeed a fascinating thread. The topic of the group is
alternative health, but those who lean toward standard AMA methods say
that having the "other side" represented is a good thing. I wonder
why... I don't expect to find historical fiction in the gardening
section at the book store. I don't expect to find vegetables in the
snack aisle at the supermarket. And I don't expect the doctor to tell
me about liver cleansing. The difference between natural health and
typical doctors' care has been portrayed as an "us against them"
struggle. I have already referred to AMA sanctioned methods as BS,
which tells you where I stand. But I'm not on the usenet group for
standard medicine every day telling everybody that they should embrace
natural healing. That would be silly.

You say:

Quoted message said:

However there may be others who are open minded and intelligent and
would appreciate hearing the opinion of someone with extensive
conventional medical training.

As far as I can tell, you can hardly go anywhere without tripping over
the offerings of those with extensive conventional medical training.
Why is it so desperately needed here?

It seems logical that no matter which way a person is inclined to go, he
or she will search for information until something starts making sense.
Different things make sense to different people. But it appears to me
that there are certain individuals who are offended by the idea that
somebody would claim to have benefited from doing a liver cleanse,
offended enough to feel an irresistible need to tell everybody that
liver cleansing is a sham. That is a very arrogant attitude to have. I
thought that it was kind of funny that when I said sarcastically that
the anti-naturals are so much smarter than the self-healers, the
responses very clearly illustrated the inherent arrogance of this group
of malcontents who just have to put an AMA slant on everything. Don't
worry, we can take care of ourselves, and we have the power of
discernment. Everybody has their own BS meter. Mine goes off a lot
when I hear about astrology, phrenology, and anti-depressants. Those of
us who are seeking enlightenment can find our way without the protection
of the "extensively trained". I don't think that anybody has been
swayed one way or the other (pro or con regarding natural healing) by
arguments posted here anyway.

Robbie and Laura Reynolds said:

standard AMA methods

What are these methods?

--
Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight

--

"Peter Bowditch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Robbie and Laura Reynolds said:

standard AMA methods

What are these methods?

--
Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight

Good question, Peter. I'm not aware of the AMA being in the business of
establishing medical standards of care. There are such standards, of course,
but they are defined by law, and vary by locale, and even by practitioner.
(An emergency-room physician is held to a lesser standard when suturing a
facial laceration than is a plastic surgeon, for example. Or a doctor in
Nome, Alaska is not expected to provide the care for your heart attack that
you would get at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore.)

The AMA is little more than a club that has declined in popularity. Fewer
than half of the country's doctors belong to it, and many that do are
members only to get the medical journal subscription.

--Rich

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Effective liver cleanse?
From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 7/20/2003 4:14 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Robbie and Laura Reynolds said:

standard AMA methods

What are these methods?

For starters:

http://www.tribnet.com/news/story/1943204p-2053843c.html

http://www.odatus.com/FDA-payoff.htm

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/ama.htm

http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/pubs/98jse.html

Jan

--

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Effective liver cleanse?
From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 7/20/2003 4:14 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Robbie and Laura Reynolds said:

standard AMA methods

What are these methods?

For starters:

http://www.tribnet.com/news/story/1943204p-2053843c.html

Doesn't mention the AMA.

Quoted message said:

http://www.odatus.com/FDA-payoff.htm

Doesn't mention the AMA.

Quoted message said:

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/ama.htm

Mentions Ama several times, but nothing about "standard AMA
methods."

Quoted message said:

http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/pubs/98jse.html

Doesn't mention the AMA.

Quoted message said:

Jan

This is typical Jan. Misread a post (in this case a simple four-word
question), then instead of responding with a considered opinion, post a
string of links to sites that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Can't read. Can't write, Can't think.

--Rich

--

"Robbie and Laura Reynolds" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

...I can get
back to wondering why you guys are so worried that somebody might drink
olive oil without the benefit of your opinion.

Drink all you like. If I meet you in a bar, I'll buy you a glass. But if you
start claiming in public that drinking olive oil cures cancer or the common
cold, you're going to elicit some opinions, mine included. Sorry, that's the
nature of newsgroups.

--Rich

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

--

"Robbie and Laura Reynolds" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

...I can get
back to wondering why you guys are so worried that somebody might
drink olive oil without the benefit of your opinion.

Drink all you like. If I meet you in a bar, I'll buy you a glass. But
if you start claiming in public that drinking olive oil cures cancer
or the common cold, you're going to elicit some opinions, mine
included. Sorry, that's the nature of newsgroups.

What I personally find the most objectionable about "liver flushes" is that
they're a technique designed to convince people that they have a problem
when in fact they don't. Such practices are to health what "slacktivism"
is to politics or social reform; they're rituals that allow you to think
you're doing something important when you really aren't, just like
persuading your co-workers to send business cards to Craig Shergold lets
you get the feeling of having done a good deed without actually having to
do one. They promote hypochondria while distracting people from lifestyle
changes that could really make a difference to their health.

The thing that bothers me the second most is that such rituals promote an
incorrect understanding of how the body works, blurring the lines between
reality and fantasy.

--

"Eric Bohlman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

--

"Robbie and Laura Reynolds" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

...I can get
back to wondering why you guys are so worried that somebody might
drink olive oil without the benefit of your opinion.

Drink all you like. If I meet you in a bar, I'll buy you a glass. But
if you start claiming in public that drinking olive oil cures cancer
or the common cold, you're going to elicit some opinions, mine
included. Sorry, that's the nature of newsgroups.

What I personally find the most objectionable about "liver flushes" is

that

Quoted message said:

they're a technique designed to convince people that they have a problem
when in fact they don't. Such practices are to health what "slacktivism"
is to politics or social reform; they're rituals that allow you to think
you're doing something important when you really aren't, just like
persuading your co-workers to send business cards to Craig Shergold lets
you get the feeling of having done a good deed without actually having to
do one. They promote hypochondria while distracting people from lifestyle
changes that could really make a difference to their health.

The thing that bothers me the second most is that such rituals promote an
incorrect understanding of how the body works, blurring the lines between
reality and fantasy.

Well said. What frustrates me most are the buzzwords and terms.

"Strengthens the immune system"
Implies that "weak" immune systems are the basis of all or most
disease. Of course, there are many people (transplant patients) leading
healthy productive lives with intentionally weakened immune systems.

"Restores Balance'
So what's out of balance. It's true that the body has many
homeostatic systems that must remain in balance to function, but for the
most part, they do so automatically. When they don't, illness far too severe
to treat with a supplement or a magnet is the result.

"Cleanses"
Suggests that the body is dirty. I see a lot of dirty bodies in my
practice, but it's not the liver or even the colon that is the problem.

"Detoxifies"
Users of this word never specify what toxins are getting removed. Of
course there are many toxins that make people ill, but they are all
different, and there is no one substance that is a general detoxifier. Also,
intoxication is generally a disease of toddlers, suicides, and substance
abusers. None of these are commonly consumers of alternative health
products.

It's amazing that I could design a website that implies that its readers
have weak immune systems, and are unbalanced, dirty, and full of poison and
they would then send me money for worthless products to "cure" these
problems they didn't know they had.

But it's true.

--Rich

Eric Bohlman said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

--

"Robbie and Laura Reynolds" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

...I can get
back to wondering why you guys are so worried that somebody might
drink olive oil without the benefit of your opinion.

Drink all you like. If I meet you in a bar, I'll buy you a glass. But
if you start claiming in public that drinking olive oil cures cancer
or the common cold, you're going to elicit some opinions, mine
included. Sorry, that's the nature of newsgroups.

What I personally find the most objectionable about "liver flushes" is that
they're a technique designed to convince people that they have a problem
when in fact they don't. Such practices are to health what "slacktivism"
is to politics or social reform; they're rituals that allow you to think
you're doing something important when you really aren't, just like
persuading your co-workers to send business cards to Craig Shergold lets
you get the feeling of having done a good deed without actually having to
do one. They promote hypochondria while distracting people from lifestyle
changes that could really make a difference to their health.

The thing that bothers me the second most is that such rituals promote an
incorrect understanding of how the body works, blurring the lines between
reality and fantasy.

This sounds like what I just said. You think that certain natural
healing advice is wrong, and it's vitally important that you say so
here, but you don't have any natural healing advice to offer. The whole
point of this forum is to talk about natural healing, not "standard
medical practice".

While we're on the subject of promoting hypochondria, have you heard
about the new purple pill? You should ask your doctor about it.

By the way, curing cancer and the common cold is easy, but I don't know
of any methods that involve olive oil. Perhaps you could enlighten me.