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Re: Do You Hate Alternative Medicine?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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30 August 2005
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14 October 2005
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  1. When all is said and done the amount and quality of the information
    for non alternative is at a level far above all but the very few
    percent which have some research supporting them. The problems with
    some drug testing and confirmation are but reasons to want even more,
    not less. That example of the depression drug was discovered by
    research, not by the absence of it. A pig in a poke is always
    inferior in all respects to research. Serious side effects are also
    present in some alternative drugs, most being both harmless and
    useless except to one's pocketbook. With the present state of the law
    the research is us, we are the lab rats to see if alternative drugs
    are harmful and we know the results when and only when it comes to the
    governments knowledge often by accident.

    Quoted message said:

    I appreciate the rationale, however the absence of scientific data
    doesn't necessarily mean the absence of benefit. Depending on the
    quality of data collected, it also doesn't stand to reason that
    availability of data guarantees a positive risk-reward ratio. What is
    the quality of data, for instance, on use of vitamin C and use of
    Vioxx? We know that a diet absent viamin C will result in death in a
    fairly short period of time. But clinically tested and approved Vioxx
    has likely killed hundreds or thousands of patients who believed the
    drug maker's study and trusted their doctors to prescribe it. We know
    there are drugs on the market whose limited benefit, when compared to
    placebo, make them a poor choice in light of their potentially life
    threatening side effects. An FDA advisory committee expert who
    evaluated a connection between suicide and antidepressant use stated:
    "I think we have to come back to the issue of efficacy. We have I think
    very strong evidence of harm and really not very good evidence of
    efficacy, and although I know many practitioners are convinced that
    these drugs work, if you look very closely at the [Prozac] trial, just
    as an example, at the Childhood Depression Rating Scale, the
    improvement with placebo was 19 points, and the improvement with the
    drug was 23.4 points. You bring people in, you start a medication, and
    you see an improvement, you are very, very likely to believe that the
    drug is effective, and the reason why we do randomized, double-blind
    trials is because personal experience, however compelling, is not a
    reliable way to tell whether drugs work. In the study where they
    worked, in the [Prozac study], the improvement over placebo was really
    very, very small, and I would say not detectable by a clinician
    treating individual patients..."

    PeterB

  2. Quoted message said:

    "I find so many posts that try to debunk alternative medicine here. I am
    really surprised. I have used alternative methods for 20 years with
    amazing results."

    Hate doesn't come to mind, but a desire that the best way of answering
    questions about the proposed benefit of any substance should be
    substantiated scientifically. "Alternative" is such a broad umbrella
    term it is meaningless unless one qualifies what it means. Here is
    the bottom line for me, if there is not evidence based in research, in
    contrast to testimonials and marketing, then any product or method is
    a pig in a poke. I use supplements but each of them has research
    supporting their benefit and each is of a source that I can have
    confidence the contents are what is on the label. The vast bulk of
    "alternative" approaches fail that test at once, especially
    "alternative" methods such as homopathetic and other such nonsense.

    I appreciate the rationale, however the absence of scientific data
    doesn't necessarily mean the absence of benefit. Depending on the
    quality of data collected, it also doesn't stand to reason that
    availability of data guarantees a positive risk-reward ratio. What is
    the quality of data, for instance, on use of vitamin C and use of
    Vioxx? We know that a diet absent viamin C will result in death in a
    fairly short period of time. But clinically tested and approved Vioxx
    has likely killed hundreds or thousands of patients who believed the
    drug maker's study and trusted their doctors to prescribe it. We know
    there are drugs on the market whose limited benefit, when compared to
    placebo, make them a poor choice in light of their potentially life
    threatening side effects. An FDA advisory committee expert who
    evaluated a connection between suicide and antidepressant use stated:
    "I think we have to come back to the issue of efficacy. We have I think
    very strong evidence of harm and really not very good evidence of
    efficacy, and although I know many practitioners are convinced that
    these drugs work, if you look very closely at the [Prozac] trial, just
    as an example, at the Childhood Depression Rating Scale, the
    improvement with placebo was 19 points, and the improvement with the
    drug was 23.4 points. You bring people in, you start a medication, and
    you see an improvement, you are very, very likely to believe that the
    drug is effective, and the reason why we do randomized, double-blind
    trials is because personal experience, however compelling, is not a
    reliable way to tell whether drugs work. In the study where they
    worked, in the [Prozac study], the improvement over placebo was really
    very, very small, and I would say not detectable by a clinician
    treating individual patients..."

    PeterB

  3. Quoted message said:

    When all is said and done the amount and quality of the information
    for non alternative is at a level far above all but the very few
    percent which have some research supporting them. The problems with
    some drug testing and confirmation are but reasons to want even more,
    not less. That example of the depression drug was discovered by
    research, not by the absence of it. A pig in a poke is always
    inferior in all respects to research. Serious side effects are also
    present in some alternative drugs, most being both harmless and
    useless except to one's pocketbook. With the present state of the law
    the research is us, we are the lab rats to see if alternative drugs
    are harmful and we know the results when and only when it comes to the
    governments knowledge often by accident.

    Excellent point. The supplement/herb/magic potion industry fought tooth
    and nail to prevent Congress from passing legislation requiring that all
    manufacturers report all adverse event reports to the FDA. There is no
    system in place to make such reports regarding alternatives.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I appreciate the rationale, however the absence of scientific data
    doesn't necessarily mean the absence of benefit. Depending on the
    quality of data collected, it also doesn't stand to reason that
    availability of data guarantees a positive risk-reward ratio. What is
    the quality of data, for instance, on use of vitamin C and use of
    Vioxx? We know that a diet absent viamin C will result in death in a
    fairly short period of time. But clinically tested and approved Vioxx
    has likely killed hundreds or thousands of patients who believed the
    drug maker's study and trusted their doctors to prescribe it. We know
    there are drugs on the market whose limited benefit, when compared to
    placebo, make them a poor choice in light of their potentially life
    threatening side effects. An FDA advisory committee expert who
    evaluated a connection between suicide and antidepressant use stated:
    "I think we have to come back to the issue of efficacy. We have I think
    very strong evidence of harm and really not very good evidence of
    efficacy, and although I know many practitioners are convinced that
    these drugs work, if you look very closely at the [Prozac] trial, just
    as an example, at the Childhood Depression Rating Scale, the
    improvement with placebo was 19 points, and the improvement with the
    drug was 23.4 points. You bring people in, you start a medication, and
    you see an improvement, you are very, very likely to believe that the
    drug is effective, and the reason why we do randomized, double-blind
    trials is because personal experience, however compelling, is not a
    reliable way to tell whether drugs work. In the study where they
    worked, in the [Prozac study], the improvement over placebo was really
    very, very small, and I would say not detectable by a clinician
    treating individual patients..."

    PeterB

  4. Hi,
    In the USA about 15% of the people take prescription drugs with
    the side effects known to be killing 100,000 annually. About half take
    natural interventions with the death toll so low no one has bothered to
    count it. Yet these natural "medicines" are much more powerful than
    the best of those that doctors prescribe. When Drs. Harris and Proctor
    posted their comments in sci.life-extension saying that the best
    prescription medicines known were the statin drugs, I pointed out that
    the mortality benefits were only a small fraction of those due to
    eating a handful of nuts daily. Since they were apparently chagrined
    into silence by my opening volley I refrained from adding that theory
    strongly predicts the effects to be additive to those of another
    natural "medicine" that also independently beats the statins hands
    down, namely fish oil.
    When skilled professionals are so easily and soundly beaten
    by people with less intelligence and much less training at a small
    fraction of the cost, is it no wonder that they do indeed hate natural
    medicine? These pros will continue to be embarrassed until they adopt
    or beat our most powerful techniques. We treat ourselves long before we
    get sick, and we use the right tool for the right job, regardless of
    whether it's patented or not.

    Thomas

  5. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hi,
    In the USA about 15% of the people take prescription drugs with
    the side effects known to be killing 100,000 annually. About half take
    natural interventions with the death toll so low no one has bothered to
    count it. Yet these natural "medicines" are much more powerful than
    the best of those that doctors prescribe. When Drs. Harris and Proctor
    posted their comments in sci.life-extension saying that the best
    prescription medicines known were the statin drugs, I pointed out that
    the mortality benefits were only a small fraction of those due to
    eating a handful of nuts daily. Since they were apparently chagrined
    into silence by my opening volley I refrained from adding that theory
    strongly predicts the effects to be additive to those of another
    natural "medicine" that also independently beats the statins hands
    down, namely fish oil.
    When skilled professionals are so easily and soundly beaten
    by people with less intelligence and much less training at a small
    fraction of the cost, is it no wonder that they do indeed hate natural
    medicine? These pros will continue to be embarrassed until they adopt
    or beat our most powerful techniques. We treat ourselves long before we
    get sick, and we use the right tool for the right job, regardless of
    whether it's patented or not.

    I feel confident that Drs. Harris and Proctor weren't stunned into silence
    by anything. They certainly recognize the futility of arguing with someone
    who has such an emotional investment in such a whacko set of ideas. Your
    rather amusing assumption about their lack of response speaks volumes in
    support of that futility of refutation.

    HMc

  6. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1125438684.133708.

    Quoted message said:

    In the USA about 15% of the people take prescription drugs with
    the side effects known to be killing 100,000 annually. About half take
    natural interventions with the death toll so low no one has bothered to
    count it. Yet these natural "medicines" are much more powerful than
    the best of those that doctors prescribe. When Drs. Harris and Proctor
    posted their comments in sci.life-extension saying that the best
    prescription medicines known were the statin drugs, I pointed out that
    the mortality benefits were only a small fraction of those due to
    eating a handful of nuts daily. Since they were apparently chagrined
    into silence by my opening volley

    They, in fact, offed themselves in spectacular fashion before reaching the
    end of your rant. Katrina bumped the event off headline news. (I'm
    furiously pouring through the Homeopathic Materia Medica to find just the
    right substance to add a drop of to New Orleans to stave off flood borne
    dis-ease.

    Narcissistic [censored]. Your opinions are of interest to the choir alone. Post
    some verifiable data. < chirp >

    moo

  7. Quoted message said:

    Hi,
    In the USA about 15% of the people take prescription drugs with
    the side effects known to be killing 100,000 annually. About half take
    natural interventions with the death toll so low no one has bothered to
    count it. Yet these natural "medicines" are much more powerful than
    the best of those that doctors prescribe. When Drs. Harris and Proctor
    posted their comments in sci.life-extension saying that the best
    prescription medicines known were the statin drugs, I pointed out that
    the mortality benefits were only a small fraction of those due to
    eating a handful of nuts daily.

    You're comparing controlled studies to epidemiological ones. Statins to
    nuts is apples to oranges.

    Quoted message said:

    Since they were apparently chagrined
    into silence by my opening volley I refrained from adding that theory
    strongly predicts the effects to be additive to those of another
    natural "medicine" that also independently beats the statins hands
    down, namely fish oil.

    Fish oil, with at least one good controlled trial, is on better ground.
    But it needs to be used in far larger groups with a diversity of
    problems before we know it's true relative place. Meanwhile, of course
    I take it myself and give it to everybody I know 🙂. Fish should be in
    the water supply!

    Quoted message said:

    When skilled professionals are so easily and soundly beaten
    by people with less intelligence and much less training at a small
    fraction of the cost, is it no wonder that they do indeed hate natural
    medicine? These pros will continue to be embarrassed until they adopt
    or beat our most powerful techniques. We treat ourselves long before we
    get sick, and we use the right tool for the right job, regardless of
    whether it's patented or not.

    Thomas

    Sigh. And you're modest to boot. The only thing I have left to advise,
    is don't let yourself age past 70, lest your illusions disappear.

    SBH

  8. Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:

    Fish oil, with at least one good controlled trial, is on better ground.
    But it needs to be used in far larger groups with a diversity of
    problems before we know it's true relative place.

    NSAIDS as cox inhibitors can injure the stomach lining. Do you know what
    effect EPA/DHA has on the stomach -- in other words can fish oil produce
    stomach ulcers?

    Quoted message said:

    Meanwhile, of course
    I take it myself and give it to everybody I know 🙂.

    For the record what is the dosage range that you recommend?

  9. Thank God for the "supplement/herb/magic potion industry"! Providing
    hope
    and opening up new avenues for research - while the breathtakingly
    corrupt
    drug cabal and their bureaucratic allies complain.

    Before these crooks criticize natural supplements, let them clean up
    their own
    house and offer real alternatives instead of carcinogenic treatments
    for cancer
    that nearly always end in picking a coffin. The Lancet noted the severe
    lack
    of progress in cancer research in 1930 - 75 years ago!

    You want research? So do I - unfortunately that research is skewed
    away from
    natural, unpatentable treatments - that may offer the greatest
    probabilities of actually
    curing disease.

    What drug company is going to pursue a natural, unprofitable therapy
    while facing
    a potential hurdle of $800 million dollars in testing? Does it ever
    "get thru" to people
    WHY medical progress is so slow - or non-existant? That the system of
    development
    is now almost futile?

    LEAVE SUPPLEMENTS ALONE! The real reason for "supplement- hate"
    involves
    greed and the exposure of the deepening futility of the FDA/Drug
    development
    system.

  10. "A pig in a poke is always inferior in all respects to research."

    That depends on how you define "pig," "poke," and "inferior."

    If the pig is a nutrient, your statement is a non sequitur. A nutrient
    is not inferior to a drug simply because the drug undergoes
    FDA-mandated testing. In fact, the higher level of testing required of
    mainstream drugs reflects the greater inherent risk in those products
    to human health. And if the research on those products is adequate,
    why are 20% of mainstream drugs experiencing recalls on an annual
    basis? In other words, why aren't the data revealing these problems
    before administering to patients?

    "That example of the depression drug was discovered by research, not by
    the absence of it."

    If that data was available prior to putting Prozac on the market, how
    was it of benefit to potential victims of suicide? If it was only
    available later, what is happening at the FDA?

    PeterB

    Quoted message said:

    When all is said and done the amount and quality of the information
    for non alternative is at a level far above all but the very few
    percent which have some research supporting them. The problems with
    some drug testing and confirmation are but reasons to want even more,
    not less. That example of the depression drug was discovered by
    research, not by the absence of it. A pig in a poke is always
    inferior in all respects to research. Serious side effects are also
    present in some alternative drugs, most being both harmless and
    useless except to one's pocketbook. With the present state of the law
    the research is us, we are the lab rats to see if alternative drugs
    are harmful and we know the results when and only when it comes to the
    governments knowledge often by accident.

  11. ditto eighthman.
    great stuff.

  12. Quoted message said:

    Hi,
    In the USA about 15% of the people take prescription drugs with
    the side effects known to be killing 100,000 annually. About half take
    natural interventions with the death toll so low no one has bothered to
    count it. Yet these natural "medicines" are much more powerful than
    the best of those that doctors prescribe. When Drs. Harris and Proctor
    posted their comments in sci.life-extension saying that the best
    prescription medicines known were the statin drugs, I pointed out that
    the mortality benefits were only a small fraction of those due to
    eating a handful of nuts daily. Since they were apparently chagrined
    into silence by my opening volley I refrained from adding that theory
    strongly predicts the effects to be additive to those of another
    natural "medicine" that also independently beats the statins hands
    down, namely fish oil.
    When skilled professionals are so easily and soundly beaten
    by people with less intelligence and much less training at a small
    fraction of the cost, is it no wonder that they do indeed hate natural
    medicine? These pros will continue to be embarrassed until they adopt
    or beat our most powerful techniques. We treat ourselves long before we
    get sick, and we use the right tool for the right job, regardless of
    whether it's patented or not.

    Thomas

    Well said, Thomas.

    PB

  13. PeterB said:

    Our resident Pharma Bloggers should be ashamed of themselves.

    Hey idiot PeterB: Show that someone here is on the take. Take my money.

    < chirp >

    moo

  14. Where's my check?!? If I'm gonna waste time here...AND be called a
    paid shill...I want my damn money!

    Mark, MD

  15. RArmant said:
    Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:

    Fish oil, with at least one good controlled trial, is on better ground.
    But it needs to be used in far larger groups with a diversity of
    problems before we know it's true relative place.

    NSAIDS as cox inhibitors can injure the stomach lining. Do you know what
    effect EPA/DHA has on the stomach -- in other words can fish oil produce
    stomach ulcers?

    COMMENT:
    No. If so, there'd be a lot of ulcerated Eskimos. One reason I love
    fish and borage oil, is they partly replace the most risky general use
    drugs (prescription or not) in the medical armamentarium: NSAIDS. To
    get more dangerous drugs you have to go to chemo, some heart drugs, and
    the most powerful of the controlled substances. And NSAIDS, because
    used so commonly, are still the champion pharmaceutical killers,
    numbers-wise. They kill something like 20,000 people every year in the
    US! That's a new 9/11 every couple of months! Their use remains an
    embarrassment to the whole orthodox medical profession and pharm
    industry, *unless* all the dietary tricks for modulating inflammation
    more safely have been tried first. Even then, if you do the diet,
    you'll need fewer NSAIDS.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Meanwhile, of course
    I take it myself and give it to everybody I know 🙂.

    For the record what is the dosage range that you recommend?

    COMMENT:

    You can start with 5 of the 1000 mg capsules of fishoil a day (about
    1.5 grams EPA/DHA) and 2 of the 1000 mg capsules of borage oil (about
    0.5 gram GLA). If you get a good anti-inflammatory effect, you can try
    doubling this dose to see if you get anything more. All this can be
    taken with any single meal.

    It takes about 10 ordinary fishoil caps to equal a 7 oz salmon steak.
    So this is not even pharmacological dosing. It's just few can eat that
    much salmon every day, even if you could get farmed salmon that wasn't
    full of arachadonate, or wild salmon that wasn't full of halogenated
    industrial chemicals (PCBs and the stuff that pollutes the oceans more
    and more). Since I have no way to guage all this, I take the
    molecularly purified oil. Just buy the white "enteric" fishoil
    concentrate pills from Costco (equivalent dose there is about 7 caps a
    day, and twice the cost of the ordinary fishoil-- which is probably
    still better than eating the fish).

    The cheapest borage oil source I've found (which is the cheapest GLA
    source) is Puritan's Pride.

    SBH

  16. eighthman said:

    Thank God for the "supplement/herb/magic potion industry"! Providing
    hope
    and opening up new avenues for research

    What research? The usual route they take is to see some study in
    Realmedicine and then find a way to market it over the counter.

    - while the breathtakingly

    Quoted message said:

    corrupt
    drug cabal and their bureaucratic allies complain.

    Before these crooks criticize natural supplements, let them clean up
    their own
    house and offer real alternatives instead of carcinogenic treatments
    for cancer
    that nearly always end in picking a coffin. The Lancet noted the severe
    lack
    of progress in cancer research in 1930 - 75 years ago!

    You are a bit behind the times.

    Quoted message said:

    You want research? So do I - unfortunately that research is skewed
    away from
    natural, unpatentable treatments - that may offer the greatest
    probabilities of actually
    curing disease.

    This has been debunked numerous times.

    Quoted message said:

    What drug company is going to pursue a natural, unprofitable therapy
    while facing
    a potential hurdle of $800 million dollars in testing? Does it ever
    "get thru" to people
    WHY medical progress is so slow - or non-existant? That the system of
    development
    is now almost futile?

    LEAVE SUPPLEMENTS ALONE! The real reason for "supplement- hate"
    involves
    greed and the exposure of the deepening futility of the FDA/Drug
    development
    system.

    NOPE.

    However, if it makes you feel better to believe and post this [censored],
    go right ahead.

  17. Hi Steve,

    Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:
    Quoted message said:

    Hi,
    In the USA about 15% of the people take prescription drugs with
    the side effects known to be killing 100,000 annually. About half take
    natural interventions with the death toll so low no one has bothered to
    count it. Yet these natural "medicines" are much more powerful than
    the best of those that doctors prescribe. When Drs. Harris and Proctor
    posted their comments in sci.life-extension saying that the best
    prescription medicines known were the statin drugs, I pointed out that
    the mortality benefits were only a small fraction of those due to
    eating a handful of nuts daily.

    You're comparing controlled studies to epidemiological ones. Statins to
    nuts is apples to oranges.

    I'm discussing a very important medical question. You're trying to
    win an argument and save face for having bowed out on it previously
    without even the curtesy of a concession. The question is nut
    consumption; good or bad? Better than statins; yes or no? Careful with
    your answer, I've posted some of my archive on their consumption
    below.
    As to your apples/oranges argument, epidemiologic studies are
    the ones that the medical profession turns to for guidance when their
    gold standard, controlled studies go awry after marketing. They are
    always considered to trump the controlled study when there is a
    conflict.
    Within the epidemiologic category large ones beat small ones.
    Ones with hi odds ratios beat those with low ones. Just one or two of
    the five I attach would be sufficient to drive all statins from the
    market place if they were seen to be on the short side of the odds in
    such large studies.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Since they were apparently chagrined
    into silence by my opening volley I refrained from adding that theory
    strongly predicts the effects to be additive to those of another
    natural "medicine" that also independently beats the statins hands
    down, namely fish oil.

    Fish oil, with at least one good controlled trial, is on better ground.

    Fortyeight controlled studies and 41 epidmiologic ones for omega 3
    fatty acids in one recent review.

    Quoted message said:

    But it needs to be used in far larger groups with a diversity of
    problems before we know it's true relative place.

    We don't need any more.

    Quoted message said:

    Meanwhile, of course
    I take it myself and give it to everybody I know 🙂. Fish should be in
    the water supply!

    Quoted message said:

    When skilled professionals are so easily and soundly beaten
    by people with less intelligence and much less training at a small
    fraction of the cost, is it no wonder that they do indeed hate natural
    medicine? These pros will continue to be embarrassed until they adopt
    or beat our most powerful techniques. We treat ourselves long before we
    get sick, and we use the right tool for the right job, regardless of
    whether it's patented or not.

    Thomas

    Sigh. And you're modest to boot. The only thing I have left to advise,
    is don't let yourself age past 70, lest your illusions disappear.

    My bragging in the above paragraph was on the part of those
    who use natural medicines, not for myself, as can be seen by the use of
    plural pronouns. But thx, for the revealing mistake. It reminds me
    that I do have a tendancy to brag. It has for quite a while been a
    useful lure for trolling, but for some time now all I have seen are
    personal attacks without anyone actually addressing the facts of my
    braggadocio, and it is in very poor taste. So the time has come
    reconsider my choice of lures.
    Once again I appeal to all group members. Clash with me
    whenever you disagree. The clash of ideas can be very educational, in
    contrast to the clash of personalities.

    Thomas

  18. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You're comparing controlled studies to epidemiological ones. Statins to
    nuts is apples to oranges.

    I'm discussing a very important medical question. You're trying to
    win an argument and save face for having bowed out on it previously
    without even the curtesy of a concession.

    COMMENT: Why should I make a concession when you've made no
    comprehensible point?

    Quoted message said:

    The question is nut
    consumption; good or bad?

    That is the question. There is some limited epidemiologic evidence in
    favor. For what it's worth. It's probably enough to make one eat mixed
    fancy nuts regularly. Which I do.

    Quoted message said:

    Better than statins; yes or no?

    There is insufficient data for a meaningful answer. Not until somebody
    does a blinded controlled prospective nut study. Perhaps you could
    contact Dr. Beatrice Golomb at UCSD.

    Quoted message said:

    As to your apples/oranges argument, epidemiologic studies are
    the ones that the medical profession turns to for guidance when their
    gold standard, controlled studies go awry after marketing.

    So far as I can tell, that statement is complete and utter baloney.
    Cite some examples.

    Quoted message said:

    They are
    always considered to trump the controlled study when there is a
    conflict.

    Nonsense. Cite examples.

    Quoted message said:

    Within the epidemiologic category large ones beat small ones.

    More or less true. So?

    Quoted message said:

    Ones with hi odds ratios beat those with low ones.

    That depends on confidence limits, so I can't give you that point.

    Quoted message said:

    Just one or two of
    the five I attach would be sufficient to drive all statins from the
    market place if they were seen to be on the short side of the odds in
    such large studies.

    COMMENT:

    Nonsense. No uncontrolled epidemiologic study drives a drug from the
    marketplace, unless it documents some very odd and pathognomonic toxic
    effect that only the drug could be causing. Like short limbs. As for
    Vioxx, it was killed by a controlled study. No epidemiology of common
    things like MIs would ever have touched it.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Since they were apparently chagrined
    into silence by my opening volley I refrained from adding that theory
    strongly predicts the effects to be additive to those of another
    natural "medicine" that also independently beats the statins hands
    down, namely fish oil.

    Fish oil, with at least one good controlled trial, is on better ground.

    Fortyeight controlled studies and 41 epidmiologic ones for omega 3
    fatty acids in one recent review.

    Apples and oranges. Controlled studies with what endpoints? I could've
    got you more than this for HRT. But the endpoints were wrong for the
    controlled studies, and the epidemiological ones with the right
    endpoints, weren't controlled. And they all led to the wrong
    conclusions. For fishoil we have ISIS which is controlled, with the
    right endpoints. For HRT, the controlled studies with the right
    endpoints torpedoed use of estrogen for most of the things it was being
    used for. I think the only good indication left is hot flashes. And for
    that, you take a small risk of dying, rather like a jet trip to Miami.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    But it needs to be used in far larger groups with a diversity of
    problems before we know it's true relative place.

    We don't need any more.

    Sez you. Make your case. I've seen long term AZT and HRT and vitamin E
    and even beta carotene, all fail after great epidemiology and great
    theory and great short term studies. I'm a skeptic. As far as I'm
    concerned, the long term blinded randomized placebo controlled trial is
    God. You are welcome to your own religion, but you're not going to make
    me a convert. I've seen Baal with feet of clay.

    SBH

  19. Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:
    RArmant said:
    Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:

    Fish oil, with at least one good controlled trial, is on better ground.
    But it needs to be used in far larger groups with a diversity of
    problems before we know it's true relative place.

    NSAIDS as cox inhibitors can injure the stomach lining. Do you know what
    effect EPA/DHA has on the stomach -- in other words can fish oil produce
    stomach ulcers?

    COMMENT:
    No. If so, there'd be a lot of ulcerated Eskimos. One reason I love
    fish and borage oil, is they partly replace the most risky general use
    drugs (prescription or not) in the medical armamentarium: NSAIDS. To
    get more dangerous drugs you have to go to chemo, some heart drugs, and
    the most powerful of the controlled substances. And NSAIDS, because
    used so commonly, are still the champion pharmaceutical killers,
    numbers-wise. They kill something like 20,000 people every year in the
    US! That's a new 9/11 every couple of months! Their use remains an
    embarrassment to the whole orthodox medical profession and pharm
    industry, *unless* all the dietary tricks for modulating inflammation
    more safely have been tried first. Even then, if you do the diet,
    you'll need fewer NSAIDS.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Meanwhile, of course
    I take it myself and give it to everybody I know 🙂.

    For the record what is the dosage range that you recommend?

    COMMENT:

    You can start with 5 of the 1000 mg capsules of fishoil a day (about
    1.5 grams EPA/DHA) and 2 of the 1000 mg capsules of borage oil (about
    0.5 gram GLA). If you get a good anti-inflammatory effect, you can try
    doubling this dose to see if you get anything more. All this can be
    taken with any single meal.

    It takes about 10 ordinary fishoil caps to equal a 7 oz salmon steak.
    So this is not even pharmacological dosing. It's just few can eat that
    much salmon every day, even if you could get farmed salmon that wasn't
    full of arachadonate, or wild salmon that wasn't full of halogenated
    industrial chemicals (PCBs and the stuff that pollutes the oceans more
    and more). Since I have no way to guage all this, I take the
    molecularly purified oil. Just buy the white "enteric" fishoil
    concentrate pills from Costco (equivalent dose there is about 7 caps a
    day, and twice the cost of the ordinary fishoil-- which is probably
    still better than eating the fish).

    The cheapest borage oil source I've found (which is the cheapest GLA
    source) is Puritan's Pride.

    SBH

    I agree with most everything you said, however encapsulated fish oil
    capsules can easily conceal rancidity, making them worthless. Your
    best bet is a quality micro-distilled liquid product. I use Garden of
    Life, but Carlson's is also good.

    PB

  20. Posting [censored]? I'm sorry - I thought you were talking to me and not
    a mirror.

    Behind the times? On cancer incidence? On the widespread death
    sentences
    issued by doctors who say "there's nothing we can do"? Like my own
    mother?

    Debunked numerous times? Wow, I'm so impressed with the evidence you
    offer
    (not!) Amazing how one dismissive sentence can clear things up.

    Here's the reality: The whole system of development is breaking down -
    crushed
    under the weight of increasing regulatory costs, out of control
    lawsuits,
    corrupt FDA officials, health care inflation, indifference to the
    public,
    and drug company lobbyists WHO OUT NUMBER CONGRESSMEN TWO
    TO ONE!

    An unregulated "wild west" supplement market is the best alternative to
    a
    drug development system that is facing disaster.

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