Road Cycling · Public discussion

Re: Cycling - sprint

Ronaldo Jeremiah · 2004-08-24T03:25:25+00:00

"Stevio" wrote in message news: ... "Brissie" wrote You want to start the race from behind. Being in the lead out, where you can't go behind the other rider(unless he overtakes you), is a disadvantage Because they can use the slipstream of the guy in front? I think I get it now. The guy in front however, might suddenly speed away from the guy behind if the other guy is not careful, so that's where the tactics come in. It still seems a bit strange though. Does anyone ever just zoom away at the start and make it into a full 3 lap race? If you're not super fast (or not as fast as the other guy) but have good stamina wouldn't that be a good plan? Stephen That tactic is usually only used if: -you think your chances against a stronger opponent are very poor, so you try a 'flyer' in the hopes you'll catch him (very) unaware - in other words, you're desperate. -the race is already in progress, and you do in fact notice he is unaware or somehow unprepared to react, and you attempt to seize that moment (for example, he reaches to adjust his shoe - attack! Again, this is probably only if you are fairly desperate, because when this fails, it fails miserably) -there are more than two riders in the race, and by attacking early, you can expect your opponents to hesitate in the hopes that the other one will take up the chase. This is fairly common in the three and four rider matches that make up the repechage rounds (French for loser's bracket). In some cases (never at the Olympics), the whole sprint tournament is three+ rider races. Going from the start only works if you open up a big gap right away. If your opponent gets a hold of your draft, you really can't win - the distance is too far to hold top speed. This is what makes the event interesting tactically. The earlier responses to your post were mostly right - the tactical kind of racing you are seeing is almost entirely based on the fact that using your opponent's slipstream is an advantage. There are other elements as well; for example, some riders may prefer a short sprint from a slow speed, whereas others excel at a long, fast sprint - in either case you try and make the race develop in the way that gives you an advantage. By the way, it is not always an advantage to try and come from behind. Some tracks lend themselves more to winning from the front (velodromes vary considerably in their characteristics, including their distance for one lap - this is not standard like it is in track and field). Some riders also prefer this tactic against certain opponents or in certain situations. It's a quite complicated event. -RJ

Started by Ronaldo Jeremiah · 24 August 2004 · Last activity 25 August 2004 · 22 posts · 675 views

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Original section: Road Cycling
Published: 24 August 2004
Last activity: 25 August 2004
Original author: Ronaldo Jeremiah
Posts: 22
Discussion status: Public discussion
Total views: 675
Views / 30 days: 0
Topics: Track cycling

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Original post
Ronaldo Jeremiah
Archived post

24 August 2004, 03:25 UTC #1

"Stevio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
"Brissie" <[email hidden]> wrote
Quoted message said:
You want to start the race from behind. Being in the lead out, where
you can't go behind the other rider(unless he overtakes you), is a
disadvantage
Because they can use the slipstream of the guy in front? I think I get it
now. The guy in front however, might suddenly speed away from the guy behind
if the other guy is not careful, so that's where the tactics come in. It
still seems a bit strange though.
Does anyone ever just zoom away at the start and make it into a full 3 lap
race? If you're not super fast (or not as fast as the other guy) but have
good stamina wouldn't that be a good plan?
Stephen
That tactic is usually only used if:
-you think your chances against a stronger opponent are very poor, so
you try a 'flyer' in the hopes you'll catch him (very) unaware - in
other words, you're desperate.
-the race is already in progress, and you do in fact notice he is
unaware or somehow unprepared to react, and you attempt to seize that
moment (for example, he reaches to adjust his shoe - attack! Again,
this is probably only if you are fairly desperate, because when this
fails, it fails miserably)
-there are more than two riders in the race, and by attacking early,
you can expect your opponents to hesitate in the hopes that the other
one will take up the chase. This is fairly common in the three and
four rider matches that make up the repechage rounds (French for
loser's bracket). In some cases (never at the Olympics), the whole
sprint tournament is three+ rider races.
Going from the start only works if you open up a big gap right away.
If your opponent gets a hold of your draft, you really can't win - the
distance is too far to hold top speed. This is what makes the event
interesting tactically.
The earlier responses to your post were mostly right - the tactical
kind of racing you are seeing is almost entirely based on the fact
that using your opponent's slipstream is an advantage. There are
other elements as well; for example, some riders may prefer a short
sprint from a slow speed, whereas others excel at a long, fast sprint
- in either case you try and make the race develop in the way that
gives you an advantage.
By the way, it is not always an advantage to try and come from behind.
Some tracks lend themselves more to winning from the front
(velodromes vary considerably in their characteristics, including
their distance for one lap - this is not standard like it is in track
and field). Some riders also prefer this tactic against certain
opponents or in certain situations. It's a quite complicated event.
-RJ

Report
warren
Archived post

24 August 2004, 04:49 UTC #2

In article <[email hidden]>, Ronaldo
Jeremiah said:
"Stevio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
"Brissie" <[email hidden]> wrote
Quoted message said:
You want to start the race from behind. Being in the lead out, where
you can't go behind the other rider(unless he overtakes you), is a
disadvantage

By the way, it is not always an advantage to try and come from behind.
Some tracks lend themselves more to winning from the front
(velodromes vary considerably in their characteristics, including
their distance for one lap - this is not standard like it is in track
and field). Some riders also prefer this tactic against certain
opponents or in certain situations. It's a quite complicated event.
Just to add to the answer, the leading rider has the advantage of
having less distance to cover. The rider behind must make up the one
bike length and will have to travel even farther if they try to come
around the outside in the turn(s). This may add up to about 10-12 feet
total. If a sprinter can go just as fast as his opponent and have 12
feet less to cover then good tactics can allow the front rider to win
the race.
Usually the front rider will begin his acceleration close enough to the
finish line that he is still accelerating all the way through the final
turn(s) and the trailing rider must now make up 10-12 feet and must
also accelerate even faster than the accelerating leading rider. The
term "razor" is used to describe this tactic. I don't know why it's
called the "razor" but I think Marty Nothstein's nickname of "The
Blade" came from this tactic that he used to win the World
Championship.
-WG

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Ronaldo Jeremiah
Archived post

24 August 2004, 20:38 UTC #3

warren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
In article <[email hidden]>, Ronaldo
Jeremiah said:
"Stevio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
"Brissie" <[email hidden]> wrote
> You want to start the race from behind. Being in the lead out, where
> you can't go behind the other rider(unless he overtakes you), is a
> disadvantage

By the way, it is not always an advantage to try and come from behind.
Some tracks lend themselves more to winning from the front
(velodromes vary considerably in their characteristics, including
their distance for one lap - this is not standard like it is in track
and field). Some riders also prefer this tactic against certain
opponents or in certain situations. It's a quite complicated event.
Just to add to the answer, the leading rider has the advantage of
having less distance to cover. The rider behind must make up the one
bike length and will have to travel even farther if they try to come
around the outside in the turn(s). This may add up to about 10-12 feet
total. If a sprinter can go just as fast as his opponent and have 12
feet less to cover then good tactics can allow the front rider to win
the race.
True enough.
Quoted message said:

Usually the front rider will begin his acceleration close enough to the
finish line that he is still accelerating all the way through the final
turn(s) and the trailing rider must now make up 10-12 feet and must
also accelerate even faster than the accelerating leading rider. The
term "razor" is used to describe this tactic. I don't know why it's
called the "razor" but I think Marty Nothstein's nickname of "The
Blade" came from this tactic that he used to win the World
Championship.
-WG
BTN had this nickname back when he was a teenager racing at T-Town. I
always thought it sounded kind of dumb, but I didn't have any
nickname, so what the hell do I know? Anyway, the best nickname in
track cycling is Anthony Peden's: The Weapon.
-RJ

Report
Nick Payne
Archived post

24 August 2004, 21:26 UTC #4

Have a look at the mens sprint final. All three heats were won from
behind...
"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:

Just to add to the answer, the leading rider has the advantage of
having less distance to cover. The rider behind must make up the one
bike length and will have to travel even farther if they try to come
around the outside in the turn(s). This may add up to about 10-12 feet
total. If a sprinter can go just as fast as his opponent and have 12
feet less to cover then good tactics can allow the front rider to win
the race.

Report
Warren
Archived post

24 August 2004, 21:35 UTC #5

"Ronaldo Jeremiah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
warren <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Usually the front rider will begin his acceleration close enough to the
finish line that he is still accelerating all the way through the final
turn(s) and the trailing rider must now make up 10-12 feet and must
also accelerate even faster than the accelerating leading rider. The
term "razor" is used to describe this tactic. I don't know why it's
called the "razor" but I think Marty Nothstein's nickname of "The
Blade" came from this tactic that he used to win the World
Championship.
-WG
BTN had this nickname back when he was a teenager racing at T-Town. I
always thought it sounded kind of dumb, but I didn't have any
nickname, so what the hell do I know? Anyway, the best nickname in
track cycling is Anthony Peden's: The Weapon.
Follow the lead of George Castanza and make one up for yourself!
Ronaldo "The Rocket" Jeremiah

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Carl Sundquist
Archived post

24 August 2004, 22:58 UTC #6

"Warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:

BTN had this nickname back when he was a teenager racing at T-Town. I
always thought it sounded kind of dumb, but I didn't have any
nickname, so what the hell do I know? Anyway, the best nickname in
track cycling is Anthony Peden's: The Weapon.
Follow the lead of George Castanza and make one up for yourself!
Ronaldo "The Rocket" Jeremiah
That would depend on whether the Orwigsburg Rocket is still racing.

Report
h squared
Archived post

24 August 2004, 23:49 UTC #7

Warren said:
Quoted message said:
Follow the lead of George Castanza and make one up for yourself!
Ronaldo "The Rocket" Jeremiah
and lance "big tex" armstrong...which i like, if i have to say.
it might be best to make one up for yourself before anyone else can name
you. i used to fantasize that i would get some romantic nick similar in
feel to "the angel of the mountains" (at least, climbing was my best
thing) but the name my friends spontaneously started calling me was "the
energizer bunniee".
yay.
h

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warren
Archived post

25 August 2004, 00:22 UTC #8

In article <[email hidden]>, Nick Payne
Quoted message said:
Have a look at the mens sprint final. All three heats were won from
behind...
If a sprinter can't win from the front on occasion they won't be a
really good sprinter.
-WG
Quoted message said:

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:

Just to add to the answer, the leading rider has the advantage of
having less distance to cover. The rider behind must make up the one
bike length and will have to travel even farther if they try to come
around the outside in the turn(s). This may add up to about 10-12 feet
total. If a sprinter can go just as fast as his opponent and have 12
feet less to cover then good tactics can allow the front rider to win
the race.

Report
Dave H
Archived post

25 August 2004, 01:02 UTC #9

"Nick Payne" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Have a look at the mens sprint final. All three heats were won from
behind...
It may occur to you that Bayley was just the fastest rider on the day
(#1qualifier) making it possible with a bit of a draft to come from behind.
Dave

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Dave H
Archived post

25 August 2004, 01:10 UTC #10

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
In article <[email hidden]>, Ronaldo
Jeremiah said:
"Stevio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
"Brissie" <[email hidden]> wrote
> You want to start the race from behind. Being in the lead out, where
> you can't go behind the other rider(unless he overtakes you), is a
> disadvantage

By the way, it is not always an advantage to try and come from behind.
Some tracks lend themselves more to winning from the front
(velodromes vary considerably in their characteristics, including
their distance for one lap - this is not standard like it is in track
and field). Some riders also prefer this tactic against certain
opponents or in certain situations. It's a quite complicated event.
Just to add to the answer, the leading rider has the advantage of
having less distance to cover. The rider behind must make up the one
bike length and will have to travel even farther if they try to come
around the outside in the turn(s). This may add up to about 10-12 feet
total. If a sprinter can go just as fast as his opponent and have 12
feet less to cover then good tactics can allow the front rider to win
the race.
Usually the front rider will begin his acceleration close enough to the
finish line that he is still accelerating all the way through the final
turn(s) and the trailing rider must now make up 10-12 feet and must
also accelerate even faster than the accelerating leading rider. The
term "razor" is used to describe this tactic. I don't know why it's
called the "razor" but I think Marty Nothstein's nickname of "The
Blade" came from this tactic that he used to win the World
Championship.
-WG
There are a couple of fundamental things in running a "Razor" obviously the
ability to accelerate over the whole of the sprint is one, placement on the
track is #2, most razors are run from just above the pole line, maybe a foot
or so above, giving the rider the ability to "break away" from his opponent
in the event that there is some bumping going on from the rider on top. #3
the ability to keep your opponent right on your outside hip where you can
see him and not letting him drop down behind you and under. Also the lead
rider upon exiting turn 4 can drop down a few feet and pick up an extra gap
and break some of the side draft that happens thru the turn. Good razors are
run fast enough to assert control of your opponent from the FRONT, not just
to accelerate through the sprint, any accomplished sprinter is capable of
that.
Dave

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Harold Buck
Archived post

25 August 2004, 01:31 UTC #11

In article <[email hidden]>,
Dave H said:
"Nick Payne" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Have a look at the mens sprint final. All three heats were won from
behind...
It may occur to you that Bayley was just the fastest rider on the day
(#1qualifier) making it possible with a bit of a draft to come from behind.
Dave
This is just like people ranting about how important home-court
advantage is in the NBA and how much higher the winning percentage is
for the team with home-court. But the team with home-court is--in terms
of record--the better team; that's why they have home-court.
--Harold Buck
"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Report
Dave H
Archived post

25 August 2004, 02:53 UTC #12

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
In article <[email hidden]>,
Dave H said:
"Nick Payne" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Have a look at the mens sprint final. All three heats were won from
behind...
It may occur to you that Bayley was just the fastest rider on the day
(#1qualifier) making it possible with a bit of a draft to come from

behind.
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Dave
This is just like people ranting about how important home-court
advantage is in the NBA and how much higher the winning percentage is
for the team with home-court. But the team with home-court is--in terms
of record--the better team; that's why they have home-court.
--Harold Buck
Dearest Nipplehead,
there is no home court advantage in Athens, that is why speed and tactics
come into play.
Dave

Report
Harold Buck
Archived post

25 August 2004, 03:04 UTC #13

In article <[email hidden]>,
Dave H said:
"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
In article <[email hidden]>,
Dave H said:
"Nick Payne" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Have a look at the mens sprint final. All three heats were won from
> behind...
It may occur to you that Bayley was just the fastest rider on the day
(#1qualifier) making it possible with a bit of a draft to come from

behind.
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Dave
This is just like people ranting about how important home-court
advantage is in the NBA and how much higher the winning percentage is
for the team with home-court. But the team with home-court is--in terms
of record--the better team; that's why they have home-court.
--Harold Buck
Dearest Nipplehead,
there is no home court advantage in Athens, that is why speed and tactics
come into play.
Dave
God, if you're going to be a [censored], at least make sure you understand
what you're replying to. I was *agreeing* with you: since the guy is the
#1 qualifier, he's better than the opposition and therefore gets to come
from behind. But it's not necessarily the coming from behind that makes
him win, it's that he's just better.
I wasn't saying there was a home-court advantage, although there would
be if Greek cyclists were involved. I was saying that there was a
parallel.
--Harold Buck
"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Report
warren
Archived post

25 August 2004, 04:06 UTC #14

In article
<[email hidden]>, Harold
Buck said:
In article <[email hidden]>,
Dave H said:
"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
In article <[email hidden]>,
"Dave H" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> "Nick Payne" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > Have a look at the mens sprint final. All three heats were won from
> > behind...
Not really. See below.
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
>
> It may occur to you that Bayley was just the fastest rider on the day
> (#1qualifier) making it possible with a bit of a draft to come from

behind.
Quoted message said:
> Dave
This is just like people ranting about how important home-court
advantage is in the NBA and how much higher the winning percentage is
for the team with home-court. But the team with home-court is--in terms
of record--the better team; that's why they have home-court.
--Harold Buck
Dearest Nipplehead,
there is no home court advantage in Athens, that is why speed and tactics
come into play.
Dave
God, if you're going to be a [censored], at least make sure you understand
what you're replying to. I was *agreeing* with you: since the guy is the
#1 qualifier, he's better than the opposition and therefore gets to come
from behind. But it's not necessarily the coming from behind that makes
him win, it's that he's just better.
Actually you have it wrong. The Dutch rider in the men's gold medal
final wanted to ride from the front (in all three of the rides), and
his tactics showed this. He obviously felt that his chances for victory
were better from the front.
In the men's bronze medal second ride the German who won that ride was
essentially racing from the front because he took the lead before the
sprint was really underway.
In the women's gold medal final the Canadian won one ride from the
front and the other from the rear. She was clearly superior to the
Russian rider and in this case it is often best to control the other
rider (and your fate) by riding in the front.
It takes a fair amount of experience to see all the subtleties in match
sprinting and it seems like the better the riders are the more subtle
their tactics are in most cases. Try watching these sprints again and
look closely at their use of speeds and their precise positions up the
bankings, and then how each rider responds to the other's changes in
speed and position on the banking-there's a lot going on there.
On a track as steep as Athens' and at the speeds they were going, the
rear position is not as bad as it would be on virtually any other track
(with shallower banking) and slower speeds.
Dave has no doubt had the experience of watching novice match sprinters
at the local track trying to position themselves in the rear without
really knowing why (or if) they should do this, but they see it on TV
so they think their own tactics should be the same. Good for a few
smiles.
-WG

Report
Dave H
Archived post

25 August 2004, 04:11 UTC #15

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
In article
<[email hidden]>, Harold
Buck said:
In article <[email hidden]>,
Dave H said:
"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> "Dave H" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> > "Nick Payne" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > > Have a look at the mens sprint final. All three heats were won

from
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
> > > behind...
Not really. See below.
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
> >
> > It may occur to you that Bayley was just the fastest rider on the

day
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
> > (#1qualifier) making it possible with a bit of a draft to come

from
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
behind.
> > Dave
>
>
> This is just like people ranting about how important home-court
> advantage is in the NBA and how much higher the winning percentage

is
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
> for the team with home-court. But the team with home-court is--in

terms
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
> of record--the better team; that's why they have home-court.
>
> --Harold Buck
Dearest Nipplehead,
there is no home court advantage in Athens, that is why speed and

tactics
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
come into play.
Dave
God, if you're going to be a [censored], at least make sure you understand
what you're replying to. I was *agreeing* with you: since the guy is the
#1 qualifier, he's better than the opposition and therefore gets to come
from behind. But it's not necessarily the coming from behind that makes
him win, it's that he's just better.
Actually you have it wrong. The Dutch rider in the men's gold medal
final wanted to ride from the front (in all three of the rides), and
his tactics showed this. He obviously felt that his chances for victory
were better from the front.
In the men's bronze medal second ride the German who won that ride was
essentially racing from the front because he took the lead before the
sprint was really underway.
In the women's gold medal final the Canadian won one ride from the
front and the other from the rear. She was clearly superior to the
Russian rider and in this case it is often best to control the other
rider (and your fate) by riding in the front.
It takes a fair amount of experience to see all the subtleties in match
sprinting and it seems like the better the riders are the more subtle
their tactics are in most cases. Try watching these sprints again and
look closely at their use of speeds and their precise positions up the
bankings, and then how each rider responds to the other's changes in
speed and position on the banking-there's a lot going on there.
On a track as steep as Athens' and at the speeds they were going, the
rear position is not as bad as it would be on virtually any other track
(with shallower banking) and slower speeds.
Dave has no doubt had the experience of watching novice match sprinters
at the local track trying to position themselves in the rear without
really knowing why (or if) they should do this, but they see it on TV
so they think their own tactics should be the same. Good for a few
smiles.
-WG
Thank you. One of my favorite things is to tell aspiring sprinters that they
need to be able to control the race from the BACK, they tilt their heads
like puppies and say...huh?
Dave

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Carl Sundquist
Archived post

25 August 2004, 04:20 UTC #16

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:
Have a look at the mens sprint final. All three heats were won from
behind...
If a sprinter can't win from the front on occasion they won't be a
really good sprinter.
-WG
Conversely, they're not a really good sprinter if they can _only_ win from
the front, as well.

Report
Curtis L. Russell
Archived post

25 August 2004, 13:46 UTC #17

h squared said:
it might be best to make one up for yourself before anyone else can name
you. i used to fantasize that i would get some romantic nick similar in
feel to "the angel of the mountains" (at least, climbing was my best
thing) but the name my friends spontaneously started calling me was "the
energizer bunniee".
If my memory serves me right, my nickname was 'get off my freakin'
wheel, [censored]". Had a nice ring to it actually - and the first sign
of any progress. Before I had a nickname, they just looked surprised
that I was anywhere in the general area of their rear wheel.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

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Ewoud Dronkert
Archived post

25 August 2004, 13:49 UTC #18

Curtis L. Russell said:
my nickname was 'get off my freakin' wheel, [censored]".
That is such a useless remark. I must always laugh when I hear that.
Then they get mad and try and shake me off. Haha!
E.
-wheelsucker primadeluxe

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Bob Schwartz
Archived post

25 August 2004, 14:35 UTC #19

h squared said:
i used to fantasize that i would get some romantic nick similar in
feel to "the angel of the mountains" (at least, climbing was my best
thing) but the name my friends spontaneously started calling me was "the
energizer bunniee".
My all time favorite rider nickname belongs to Federico 'The Eagle
of Toledo' Bahamontes.
Bob Schwartz
[email hidden]

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Email address hidden
Archived post

25 August 2004, 15:03 UTC #20

Bob Schwartz said:
h squared said:
i used to fantasize that i would get some romantic nick similar in
feel to "the angel of the mountains" (at least, climbing was my best
thing) but the name my friends spontaneously started calling me was "the
energizer bunniee".
My all time favorite rider nickname belongs to Federico 'The Eagle
of Toledo' Bahamontes.
Nah!! He just borrowed it from the original Eagle, The Eagle of Adliswil
--
le Vent a Dos, Davey Crockett
Six Day Site: http://members.rogers.com/sixday/

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