Re: Chest pains. Over exercise?

Cubit said:

Well, everybody already told you to see a doctor, so that is covered.

I recently read that the reason doctors do stress tests is that exercise
is
likely to trigger abnormalities of the heart. I guess this should have
been
obvious, but it never occurred to me quite that way. It makes me wonder
if
"cardio" exercise may be harmful.

So many things in our society are taken to be truths, that are simply a
cultural belief without real evidence. Does driving your car an extra
50,000 miles improve its condition? Ever heard of someone having an
injury
during exercise?

I was able to drop from 311 to about 230 with no exercise. It can be
done.

I'm thinking about buying a used book: "The Exercise Myth" by Dr. Henry
Solomon

It used to be available online:
http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/solomonh/index.htm

Amazon:
http://tinyurl.com/6pljk

Cubit
311/185.8/165

I do believe that exercise is overrated in many ways. However, for me, it
simply makes me feel better. If I don't exercise, I'll feel fat,
regardless of whether I've changed weight. If I exercise even once, I
feel an almost immediate benefit -- I feel skinnier/lighter/better even
though I might have changed body composition.

--
Bob in CT

Bob M said:

Cubit said:

Well, everybody already told you to see a doctor, so that is covered.

I recently read that the reason doctors do stress tests is that
exercise is
likely to trigger abnormalities of the heart. I guess this should have
been
obvious, but it never occurred to me quite that way. It makes me
wonder if
"cardio" exercise may be harmful.

So many things in our society are taken to be truths, that are simply a
cultural belief without real evidence. Does driving your car an extra
50,000 miles improve its condition? Ever heard of someone having an
injury
during exercise?

I was able to drop from 311 to about 230 with no exercise. It can be
done.

I'm thinking about buying a used book: "The Exercise Myth" by Dr. Henry
Solomon

It used to be available online:
http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/solomonh/index.htm

Amazon:
http://tinyurl.com/6pljk

Cubit
311/185.8/165

I do believe that exercise is overrated in many ways. However, for me,
it simply makes me feel better. If I don't exercise, I'll feel fat,
regardless of whether I've changed weight. If I exercise even once, I
feel an almost immediate benefit -- I feel skinnier/lighter/better even
though I might have changed body composition.

That should say "though I might NOT have changed body composition."

--
Bob in CT

Cubit -

If you hate exercise so much that you don't wanna do it, then don't. But
don't try to pass it off as being harmful in the general sense. Sure,
exercise can be harmful to someone who has developed heart problems. ANY
activity can be harmful to someone who has developed heart problems.
Exercise can also be protective of the heart. Sure, anyone can lose weight
without exercise. It's basicaly just calories in vs calories out, it's not
a mystery. Sure, someone can get have an injury during exercise, happens
all the time. You can cut yourself shaving, too. BFD.

Cubit wrote:
:: Well, everybody already told you to see a doctor, so that is covered.
::
:: I recently read that the reason doctors do stress tests is that
:: exercise is likely to trigger abnormalities of the heart. I guess
:: this should have been obvious, but it never occurred to me quite
:: that way. It makes me wonder if "cardio" exercise may be harmful.
::
:: So many things in our society are taken to be truths, that are
:: simply a cultural belief without real evidence. Does driving your
:: car an extra 50,000 miles improve its condition? Ever heard of
:: someone having an injury during exercise?
::
:: I was able to drop from 311 to about 230 with no exercise. It can
:: be done.
::
:: I'm thinking about buying a used book: "The Exercise Myth" by Dr.
:: Henry Solomon
::
:: It used to be available online:
:: http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/solomonh/index.htm
::
:: Amazon:
:: http://tinyurl.com/6pljk
::
:: Cubit
:: 311/185.8/165
::
::
:: "Perdu" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
:::
::: Just found it curious upon raising my level of walking, light
::: jogging, jump roping and so on, I've noticed upper chest pains. It
::: quickly subsides when I rest up for a minute or so. But it does get
::: painful. It does not seem to be in the heart area, and it is on
::: both sides of the front of the chest and down the left arm if I
::: really get my heart going.
:::
::: I've done very little if any exercise in the past. I don't much
::: care for it. But now that I made my peace with it, I am stepping it
::: up. Any comments on this?
:::
::: I'm setting up a doctor's appointment ASAP, of course. And will
::: refrain from over working the heart until I get a clear picture.
::: Just wanted some ideas, whether or not it happens to others that
::: start off exercising after not doing so for so long.
::: --
::: Best Regards,
:::
::: Steve
:::
::: Tout est per·du fors l'hon·neur

In article <[email hidden]>,

Cubit said:

I was able to drop from 311 to about 230 with no exercise. It can be done.

I've dropped from 248 to 177 without exercise. It can certainly be done.

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking about buying a used book: "The Exercise Myth" by Dr. Henry
Solomon

I don't think exercise is a myth, I think it does help you reduce
weight, by burning calories. And converting more fat to muscle, which
means that for a given total body weight, you occupy less volume, hence
you look more thin.

That said, the reason I don't exercise is that it not something that I
am likely to continue to do. During the warm months, I tackle the brush
in the woods behind the house, plus the usual lawn work. And I shovel
the 250+ ft driveway in the winter (more times this winter than I wanted
to). I'll do physical work when it is productive, but not just for the
sake of doing it. Others enjoy exercise, and I don't knock them for
doing it, but it simply isn't something I do.

--
---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

Cubit said:

Well, everybody already told you to see a doctor, so that is covered.

I recently read that the reason doctors do stress tests is that exercise is
likely to trigger abnormalities of the heart. I guess this should have been
obvious, but it never occurred to me quite that way. It makes me wonder if
"cardio" exercise may be harmful.

I've heard of a number of people dropping dead during a stress test.

One thing to be *positive* about, is to stop when the doctor
says to. Do *not* keep going just to see what you can do,
because it might cause a heart attack right there.

Also, yes it is quite true that exercise triggers all sorts of
things to show up on an EKG. In particular the lack of oxygen
to certain parts of the heart will cause different patterns to
appear. That is a specific indication of significant blockage
of coronary arteries.

One point that might be useful about that too, is *everyone*
should get an EKG done while fairly young and healthy, just to
have it in your medical records. That provides a baseline, to
compare with at a later time.

Sounds wierd? I had to change cardiologists (my original one
was killed in an avelanche while skiing), and the first time I
was examined by the new doctor, he had an EKG done. So he's
looking at it, and spots something odd looking that may or may
not be indicative of a change. So he sits there and dug through
my file, looking at each and every EKG that I've ever had done.
Basically they go back to 1998, when I had a bypass done, and
then there is the baseline EKG that I had done in my 30's.

The odd anomally that was on my EKG, was on every one of them
all the way back. That doctor looked *really* satisfied as he
told me we don't need to worry about it! (I don't know if I
looked satisfied, but that original baseline EKG was *my* idea!
I was just tickled, it had actually turned out to be useful 20
some years later.)

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) [email hidden]

">I recently read that the reason doctors do stress tests is that
exercise is

Quoted message said:

likely to trigger abnormalities of the heart. I guess this should

have been

Quoted message said:

obvious, but it never occurred to me quite that way. It makes me

wonder if

Quoted message said:

"cardio" exercise may be harmful.

"I've heard of a number of people dropping dead during a stress test.

One thing to be *positive* about, is to stop when the doctor
says to. Do *not* keep going just to see what you can do,
because it might cause a heart attack right there. "

Yes, it certainly can happen. But, without the stress test, or a more
invasive test,
the person would in all likelihood have had an MI before too long
anyway. And where
would you rather that happen? During a stress test with a doctor and
crash cart
standing by, or while you're driving in the middle of nowhere?

I think the advice to stop when the Dr says so is silly too. Like, you
don't think
they're going to shut off the treadmill and make you stop when they're
done with
the test? Besides, at that point any sane person is damn glad the
running is over.

Quoted message said:

">I recently read that the reason doctors do stress tests is that
exercise is

Quoted message said:

likely to trigger abnormalities of the heart. I guess this should

have been

Quoted message said:

obvious, but it never occurred to me quite that way. It makes me

wonder if

Quoted message said:

"cardio" exercise may be harmful.

"I've heard of a number of people dropping dead during a stress test.

One thing to be *positive* about, is to stop when the doctor
says to. Do *not* keep going just to see what you can do,
because it might cause a heart attack right there. "

Yes, it certainly can happen. But, without the stress test, or a more
invasive test,
the person would in all likelihood have had an MI before too long
anyway. And where
would you rather that happen? During a stress test with a doctor and
crash cart
standing by, or while you're driving in the middle of nowhere?

I think the advice to stop when the Dr says so is silly too. Like, you
don't think
they're going to shut off the treadmill and make you stop when they're
done with
the test? Besides, at that point any sane person is damn glad the
running is over.

As I recall, I had to sign a waiver for my stress test just in case I
had a heart attack during my test. When the doctor finished my test,
five nurses grabbed me and sat me down in a chair. I couldn't have kept
going if I had wanted to. They ran my heart rate up to 199 bpm

Out here in Las Vegas they are now doing a type of MRI for your heart
along with a 12 lead because it's Non-invasive and unlike a stress test,
you don't risk the chance of dropping dead from it. It shows them
everything they need to see and in 3D. heart wall thickness, valves,
buildup in the artery's Etc...

--
Bunky
http://www.freewebs.com/warpig-cgs-/websalbum.htm

By what process is fat converted to muscle?

--
You take stupid to a new level. -- MFW

"Chris Smolinski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

I don't think exercise is a myth, I think it does help you reduce
weight, by burning calories. And converting more fat to muscle, which
means that for a given total body weight, you occupy less volume, hence
you look more thin.

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

I've heard of a number of people dropping dead during a stress test.

One thing to be *positive* about, is to stop when the doctor
says to. Do *not* keep going just to see what you can do,
because it might cause a heart attack right there.

Yes, it certainly can happen. But, without the stress test, or
a more invasive test, the person would in all likelihood have
had an MI before too long anyway. And where would you rather
that happen? During a stress test with a doctor and crash cart
standing by, or while you're driving in the middle of nowhere?

Exactly. A person who has an MI while taking the stress test
is a candidate for an MI every time they so much as take a step,
particularly if they climb a few stairs. It isn't that the
stress test actually caused it, it just triggered what is ready
to happen anyway.

As I stated, in many case patients are told to lay down and not
to get up *at all*, because they were going to surgery as soon
as a OR became available.

Quoted message said:

I think the advice to stop when the Dr says so is silly too.

Have you ever done a stress test?

Quoted message said:

Like, you don't think they're going to shut off the treadmill

When I took one that is *exactly* what happened.

Quoted message said:

and make you stop when they're done with the test? Besides, at
that point any sane person is damn glad the running is over.

That simply isn't true. First they tell you what they want you
to do, and how it is going to happen. So you have a set idea of
just how long it will take and how much effort you'll put into
it. The typical competitive person wants to "complete" the
test, and to see just how high a level they can reach. That's
human nature. Plus people in that situation are usually well
aware of what they were able to do a few months back, and really
haven't realized just how debilitated they are at the moment.

For most people, pushing it is exactly what the doctor wants you
to do. But for someone who has heart disease it is necessary to
cut the test short. So the patient is working up a real good
sweat and intent of doing what had been described, and all of a
sudden the whole plan changes. In my case I told the doc I
really wanted to try one more step; he reached out and pulled
the plug.

Of course I had no idea what it had done to me, but it became
apparent *very* quickly. Six months before if I'd done
something like that I would have enjoyed it, and after stopping
would have been breathing hard and sweeting for a minute or so.
This time the hard breathing and sweating just didn't stop. I
had to take a couple doses of nitro. Let me tell you, it
*wasn't* what past experience led me to expect.

The whole point is that what you expect to happen is *not* what
you experience. You make decisions based on past experience, and
in this case that is wrong.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) [email hidden]

Bunky42 said:

As I recall, I had to sign a waiver for my stress test just in
case I had a heart attack during my test. When the doctor
finished my test, five nurses grabbed me and sat me down in a
chair. I couldn't have kept going if I had wanted to. They ran
my heart rate up to 199 bpm

Sounds like you weren't in too bad a shape! But of course at
that point you might have been a bit less than at your peak
mental acquity too! Regardless, if anything obvious had showed
up on the EKG you would not have been allowed to do that.

And generally, the problem is not really how high you can get
your heart rate, but how fast you can recover and return to a
normal rate.

Quoted message said:

Out here in Las Vegas they are now doing a type of MRI for your
heart along with a 12 lead because it's Non-invasive and unlike
a stress test, you don't risk the chance of dropping dead from
it. It shows them everything they need to see and in 3D. heart
wall thickness, valves, buildup in the artery's Etc...

That is going to be as much of a revolution in cardiac medicine
as the bypass itself was. The typical proceedure has been to
take a stress test, and if that indicates a problem then an
invasive evaluation is done. A few years ago the invasive
testing cost about $10,000, but is down to less than half that
now. The proceedure you are describing is significantly less
expensive, and in fact is probably going to become a standard
emergency room proceedure!

And the actual bypass surgery, which today involves splitting
the sternum and working on an open chest, will be done with a
little robot inserted in the same way that chest draining tubes
are today through a 1/2" hole between the ribs. That might be
done with a local anesthetic, I'm not sure. The proceedure and
the equipment to do it are already being tested on humans, and
in 5-10 years cardiac bypass surgery will be vastly improved
over what it was just a couple years ago.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) [email hidden]

JC Der Koenig said:

By what process is fat converted to muscle?

Digestion! ;-)

Quoted message said:

--
You take stupid to a new level. -- MFW

"Chris Smolinski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

I don't think exercise is a myth, I think it does help you reduce
weight, by burning calories. And converting more fat to muscle, which
means that for a given total body weight, you occupy less volume, hence
you look more thin.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) [email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,

JC Der Koenig said:

By what process is fat converted to muscle?

At a minimum the fat provides energy the body uses when building the
muscle.

--
---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

"Chris Smolinski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

JC Der Koenig said:

By what process is fat converted to muscle?

At a minimum the fat provides energy the body uses when building the
muscle.

Provided that enough protein and carbs are also present with enough
abundance.

IOW, fat is not converted to muscle.

"Have you ever done a stress test? "

Yes, I have. And like Bunky above, I was damn glad it was over cause
I thought I was climbing the Empire State building.

">Like, you don't think they're going to shut off the treadmill

When I took one that is *exactly* what happened. "

Bingo!

">and make you stop when they're done with the test? Besides, at

Quoted message said:

that point any sane person is damn glad the running is over.

That simply isn't true. First they tell you what they want you
to do, and how it is going to happen. So you have a set idea of
just how long it will take and how much effort you'll put into
it. The typical competitive person wants to "complete" the
test, and to see just how high a level they can reach. That's
human nature. Plus people in that situation are usually well
aware of what they were able to do a few months back, and really
haven't realized just how debilitated they are at the moment.

For most people, pushing it is exactly what the doctor wants you
to do. But for someone who has heart disease it is necessary to
cut the test short. So the patient is working up a real good
sweat and intent of doing what had been described, and all of a
sudden the whole plan changes. In my case I told the doc I
really wanted to try one more step; he reached out and pulled
the plug. "

And that was exactly my point. That the Dr is going to stop the test
based
on the results when it's either reached it's objective of become unsafe
to continue. They aren't going to let anyone continue beyond what
they
need to do for the test. By telling people not to continue after they
tell you
to stop, you make it sound like they will let you just go on running as
long
as you like and as you've clearly seen, this doesn't happen.

"The whole point is that what you expect to happen is *not* what
you experience. You make decisions based on past experience, and
in this case that is wrong. "

As I see it, and as you've found, the patient isn't the one determining
how
long the test goes, it's the Dr. based on the results he's seeing,
which is
the whole point of the test.

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

Have you ever done a stress test?

Yes, I have. And like Bunky above, I was damn glad it was over cause
I thought I was climbing the Empire State building.

Reading your articles is a stress test in itself. Why don't you
learn how to format Usenet articles in a manner that makes them
readable?

I've changed the formatting to prevent this from being gibberish.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Like, you don't think they're going to shut off the treadmill

When I took one that is *exactly* what happened.

Bingo!

Like I do *know* exactly what can and will happen. Which your
experience, and perhaps education level, does not appear to have
taught you.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and make you stop when they're done with the test? Besides, at
that point any sane person is damn glad the running is over.

That simply isn't true.

Let me be clear on that. It absolutely is not true. Many
people will want to see exactly what they can accomplish,
clearly thinking the same as you obviously were, that the test
is not over until they, being a sane person, *don't want to
continue*.

For a healthy person that is both normal and safe. For some
people it would be fatal.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sudden the whole plan changes. In my case I told the doc I
really wanted to try one more step; he reached out and pulled
the plug.

And that was exactly my point. That the Dr is going to stop
the test based on the results when it's either reached it's
objective of become unsafe to continue. They aren't going to
let anyone continue beyond what they need to do for the test.

Wrong. They can't react fast enough. As I noted above, I
actually carried on a conversation with the doctor about
continuing, and talked him into letting me do more than he
needed, just because *I* wanted to. That was a combination of
ignorance and error on my part. and a gross error on his part.
(I've had enough training that I should have known better too,
but I ignored that, because I was used to being very healthy,
and put too much faith in the doctor's far greater knowledge.
We both goofed.)

Quoted message said:

By telling people not to continue after they tell you to stop,

I make it sound like there is a significant possibility that it
will happen, and that it is not trivial. Or at least that is my
intent.

Quoted message said:

you make it sound like they will let you just go on running as
long as you like and as you've clearly seen, this doesn't
happen.

It *does* happen, as I have clearly seen.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The whole point is that what you expect to happen is *not* what
you experience. You make decisions based on past experience, and
in this case that is wrong.

As I see it, and as you've found, the patient isn't the one
determining how long the test goes, it's the Dr. based on the
results he's seeing, which is the whole point of the test.

That is the idea. But when it is not explained before hand that
the test might need to be cut short, a patient who is by then
somewhat stressed, simply isn't expecting to stop, and is not in
a position to mentally evaluate the situation correctly.

By talking about it before hand, to allow evaluation when the
patient is mentally able, a potential problem is avoided.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) [email hidden]

[email hidden] wrote:
:: "Have you ever done a stress test? "
::
:: Yes, I have. And like Bunky above, I was damn glad it was over cause
:: I thought I was climbing the Empire State building.
::
::
::
:: ">Like, you don't think they're going to shut off the treadmill
::
:: When I took one that is *exactly* what happened. "
::
:: Bingo!
::
::
:: ">and make you stop when they're done with the test? Besides, at
::: that point any sane person is damn glad the running is over.
::
:: That simply isn't true. First they tell you what they want you
:: to do, and how it is going to happen. So you have a set idea of
:: just how long it will take and how much effort you'll put into
:: it. The typical competitive person wants to "complete" the
:: test, and to see just how high a level they can reach. That's
:: human nature. Plus people in that situation are usually well
:: aware of what they were able to do a few months back, and really
:: haven't realized just how debilitated they are at the moment.
::
:: For most people, pushing it is exactly what the doctor wants you
:: to do. But for someone who has heart disease it is necessary to
:: cut the test short. So the patient is working up a real good
:: sweat and intent of doing what had been described, and all of a
:: sudden the whole plan changes. In my case I told the doc I
:: really wanted to try one more step; he reached out and pulled
:: the plug. "
::
:: And that was exactly my point. That the Dr is going to stop the test
:: based
:: on the results when it's either reached it's objective of become
:: unsafe to continue. They aren't going to let anyone continue
:: beyond what they
:: need to do for the test. By telling people not to continue after
:: they tell you
:: to stop, you make it sound like they will let you just go on running
:: as long
:: as you like and as you've clearly seen, this doesn't happen.
::
::
:: "The whole point is that what you expect to happen is *not* what
:: you experience. You make decisions based on past experience, and
:: in this case that is wrong. "
::
:: As I see it, and as you've found, the patient isn't the one
:: determining how
:: long the test goes, it's the Dr. based on the results he's seeing,
:: which is
:: the whole point of the test.

It's impossible to tell who wrote what in this thread, Chet.

Floyd L. Davidson said:

And the actual bypass surgery, which today involves splitting
the sternum and working on an open chest, will be done with a
little robot inserted in the same way that chest draining tubes
are today through a 1/2" hole between the ribs. That might be
done with a local anesthetic, I'm not sure. The proceedure and
the equipment to do it are already being tested on humans, and
in 5-10 years cardiac bypass surgery will be vastly improved
over what it was just a couple years ago.

Floyd,
Thank you for all of your informative comments about bypass
surgery. I work for a group of open-heart surgeons and we
have been using robotics for single bypass cases to harvest
the LIMA. We also do some cases "off pump" and "minimally
invasive" (through the side or through a very small
sternotomy). Both techniques are most useful, especially in
high-risk patients. I'm glad you are doing well after your
surgery. Keep up the good work!

Marsha/Ohio

Marsha said:

Floyd L. Davidson said:

And the actual bypass surgery, which today involves splitting
the sternum and working on an open chest, will be done with a
little robot inserted in the same way that chest draining tubes
are today through a 1/2" hole between the ribs. That might be
done with a local anesthetic, I'm not sure. The proceedure and
the equipment to do it are already being tested on humans, and
in 5-10 years cardiac bypass surgery will be vastly improved
over what it was just a couple years ago.

Floyd,
Thank you for all of your informative comments about bypass
surgery. I work for a group of open-heart surgeons and we have
been using robotics for single bypass cases to harvest the LIMA.
We also do some cases "off pump" and "minimally invasive"
(through the side or through a very small sternotomy). Both
techniques are most useful, especially in high-risk patients.
I'm glad you are doing well after your surgery. Keep up the
good work!

Bypass surgery was rough... but being alive is really nice!

Of course, the truth is that I was fascinated with the technology,
since I hadn't been in a hospital for 35 years. It was fun in
some ways.

I am *most* interested in those new techniques though! I was
a young 53 when I had surgery, and if I'm lucky and live long
enough to need another fix on my arteries, I'll probably be
in my 70's. What was tolerable at 53 might not be at 75. But
my hope is that by the time I get there the proceedure will be
done on an outpatient basis... :-)

And of course, for all of us who are alive because of the work
you and your colleagues to, *thank YOU*.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) [email hidden]