Re: Chelation Therapy cont'd...

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...

This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the NEJM, but it is
obviously written by a chelationist.

Where did you really get it, Dave?

Herein lies one of the significant differences between the medically

trained

Quoted message said:

perspective and the open-minded
perspective of the holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his hat on a

thought

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that is totally irrelevant, and misses the
importance of the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a serious threat to life
and limb, and despite about fifty years of usage, none of the "doctors"
using it have been able to show it having any objective effect upon the
disease, despite the ready availability of the appropriate technology.

It

Quoted message said:

was always obvious that one of those "doctors" was responsible for this
piece.

Quoted message said:

I work with physicians who have learned
that they must see the bigger picture
in order to receive the satisfaction of healing someone.
The process
involves using traditional medicine to buy the
time to heal the patient. The healing process can't be completed until
prescription is no longer required. I know this
on a first hand basis. The man who wrote this piece and quotes the NEJM

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an associate of mine who has totally
integrated holistic medicine into is medical practise. He is a physician

who

Quoted message said:

is now able to heal.

Thank you. This is still objectionable puffery about a treatment that

many

Quoted message said:

have tried and found useless. Kadile was caught becasue his patients

were

Quoted message said:

dying.

Peter Moran

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that chelation therapy
removes heavy metals from
the body. That would suggest that it offers some benefit. While you seem to
prefer to focus on unsubstatiated
failures, the practitioners who are utilizing it do so because they see it
offering benefits. In order to be able to accept
your assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of physicians and a
substantial portion of the general population
are blind, ignorant imbeciles. Not a proposition that is acceptable.

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...
>
> This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the NEJM, but it is
> obviously written by a chelationist.
>
> Where did you really get it, Dave?

Herein lies one of the significant differences between the medically

trained

Quoted message said:

perspective and the open-minded
perspective of the holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his hat on a

thought

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that is totally irrelevant, and misses the
importance of the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a serious threat to

life

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and limb, and despite about fifty years of usage, none of the "doctors"
using it have been able to show it having any objective effect upon the
disease, despite the ready availability of the appropriate technology.

It

Quoted message said:

was always obvious that one of those "doctors" was responsible for this
piece.

Quoted message said:

I work with physicians who have learned
that they must see the bigger picture
in order to receive the satisfaction of healing someone.
The process
involves using traditional medicine to buy the
time to heal the patient. The healing process can't be completed until
prescription is no longer required. I know this
on a first hand basis. The man who wrote this piece and quotes the

NEJM

Quoted message said:

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an associate of mine who has totally
integrated holistic medicine into is medical practise. He is a

physician

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who

Quoted message said:

is now able to heal.

Thank you. This is still objectionable puffery about a treatment that

many

Quoted message said:

have tried and found useless. Kadile was caught becasue his patients

were

Quoted message said:

dying.

Peter Moran

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that chelation

therapy

Quoted message said:

removes heavy metals from
the body. That would suggest that it offers some benefit. While you seem

to

Quoted message said:

prefer to focus on unsubstatiated
failures, the practitioners who are utilizing it do so because they see it
offering benefits. In order to be able to accept
your assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of physicians and a
substantial portion of the general population
are blind, ignorant imbeciles. Not a proposition that is acceptable.

What we focus on is that the CHEATlationists are offering it as an
alternative to decisive coronary interventions, e.g. CABG and stenting, when
it offers no demonstrable opening of coronary arteries. Thus, it leaves the
poor soul with a false sense of security, as they may 'feel better' but the
diesease is still there, waiting to ZAP them with a massive fatal coronary
occlusion.

That is why CHEATlation is criticized. The removal of the miniscule amounts
of heavy metals in the plaque may or may not be beneficial. I have found no
studies showing that it is.

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that chelation therapy
removes heavy metals from
the body. That would suggest that it offers some benefit.

....for removing heavy metals from the body. If I use insulin because
of its usefulness in treating diabetes, does that mean it will work on
my plantar warts, too?

Quoted message said:

While you seem to
prefer to focus on unsubstatiated
failures,

....a body in a coffin, dead of atherosclerotic coronary artery disease
is pretty substantiated, don't you think?

Quoted message said:

the practitioners who are utilizing it do so because they see it
offering benefits.

....to their wallets, I'm sure.

Quoted message said:

In order to be able to accept
your assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of physicians and a
substantial portion of the general population
are blind, ignorant imbeciles.

....no, just greedy or gullible. (And I'd like to see your source for
this apparent claim that 15% of medical doctors prescribe or support
chelation therapy for treatment of atherosclerotic disease.)

Quoted message said:

Not a proposition that is acceptable.

Mark, MD

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-June 11, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >
> > "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > > From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...
> >
> > This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the NEJM, but it

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > obviously written by a chelationist.
> >
> > Where did you really get it, Dave?
>
> Herein lies one of the significant differences between the medically
trained
> perspective and the open-minded
> perspective of the holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his hat on a

thought

Quoted message said:

> that is totally irrelevant, and misses the
> importance of the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a serious threat to

life

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and limb, and despite about fifty years of usage, none of the

"doctors"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

using it have been able to show it having any objective effect upon

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

disease, despite the ready availability of the appropriate technology.

It

Quoted message said:

was always obvious that one of those "doctors" was responsible for

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

piece.

>I work with physicians who have learned
> that they must see the bigger picture
> in order to receive the satisfaction of healing someone.
>The process
> involves using traditional medicine to buy the
> time to heal the patient. The healing process can't be completed

until

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> prescription is no longer required. I know this
> on a first hand basis. The man who wrote this piece and quotes the

NEJM

Quoted message said:

is

Quoted message said:

> an associate of mine who has totally
> integrated holistic medicine into is medical practise. He is a

physician

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who
> is now able to heal.

Thank you. This is still objectionable puffery about a treatment

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

many

Quoted message said:

have tried and found useless. Kadile was caught becasue his patients

were

Quoted message said:

dying.

Peter Moran

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that chelation

therapy

Quoted message said:

removes heavy metals from
the body. That would suggest that it offers some benefit. While you seem

to

Quoted message said:

prefer to focus on unsubstatiated
failures, the practitioners who are utilizing it do so because they see

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

offering benefits. In order to be able to accept
your assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of physicians and a
substantial portion of the general population
are blind, ignorant imbeciles. Not a proposition that is acceptable.

What we focus on is that the CHEATlationists are offering it as an
alternative to decisive coronary interventions, e.g. CABG and stenting,

when

Quoted message said:

it offers no demonstrable opening of coronary arteries. Thus, it leaves

the

Quoted message said:

poor soul with a false sense of security, as they may 'feel better' but

the

Quoted message said:

diesease is still there, waiting to ZAP them with a massive fatal coronary
occlusion.

That is why CHEATlation is criticized. The removal of the miniscule

amounts

Quoted message said:

of heavy metals in the plaque may or may not be beneficial. I have found

no

Quoted message said:

studies showing that it is.

Have you seen any studies that suggest it harms people? We know of many who
believe it has helped so
in the absence of any proof to the contrary why wouldn't we accept that as a
plan. We see people taking
pure ginseng with chemo and radiation therapy and none of the normally
accepted side effects occur. There
is no study conclusively explaining the mechanism that makes this happen,
but the fact that this keeps occurring
suggests there is something of value to the patient, in exactly the same way
that Aspirin was adopted based on
anecdotal evidence that afforded an idenifiable benefit to the patient.

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that chelation

therapy

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

removes heavy metals from
the body. That would suggest that it offers some benefit.

...for removing heavy metals from the body. If I use insulin because
of its usefulness in treating diabetes, does that mean it will work on
my plantar warts, too?

Quoted message said:

While you seem to
prefer to focus on unsubstatiated
failures,

...a body in a coffin, dead of atherosclerotic coronary artery disease
is pretty substantiated, don't you think?

If you are trying to tell us that chelation therapy causes atherosclerotic
coronary artery disease, you don't have
any idea what you are talking about. So, substantiated? Duhhhh!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the practitioners who are utilizing it do so because they see it
offering benefits.

...to their wallets, I'm sure.

I will assume you are applying your personal criteria and merely judging
that others are as shallow and ]
merciless. You would be incorrect, again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In order to be able to accept
your assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of physicians and a
substantial portion of the general population
are blind, ignorant imbeciles.

...no, just greedy or gullible. (And I'd like to see your source for
this apparent claim that 15% of medical doctors prescribe or support
chelation therapy for treatment of atherosclerotic disease.)

Quoted message said:

Not a proposition that is acceptable.

Mark, MD

That is not what I said. One of your problem appears to be reading for
comprehension.

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-June 11, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> >
>

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >
> > > "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...
> > >
> > > This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the NEJM, but it

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > obviously written by a chelationist.
> > >
> > > Where did you really get it, Dave?
> >
> > Herein lies one of the significant differences between the

medically

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> trained
> > perspective and the open-minded
> > perspective of the holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his hat on a
thought
> > that is totally irrelevant, and misses the
> > importance of the bigger picture.
>
> The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a serious threat

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

life

Quoted message said:

> and limb, and despite about fifty years of usage, none of the

"doctors"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> using it have been able to show it having any objective effect upon

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> disease, despite the ready availability of the appropriate

technology.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It
> was always obvious that one of those "doctors" was responsible for

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> piece.
>
> >I work with physicians who have learned
> > that they must see the bigger picture
> > in order to receive the satisfaction of healing someone.
> >The process
> > involves using traditional medicine to buy the
> > time to heal the patient. The healing process can't be completed

until

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > prescription is no longer required. I know this
> > on a first hand basis. The man who wrote this piece and quotes the

NEJM

Quoted message said:

is
> > an associate of mine who has totally
> > integrated holistic medicine into is medical practise. He is a

physician

Quoted message said:

> who
> > is now able to heal.
>
> Thank you. This is still objectionable puffery about a treatment

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

many
> have tried and found useless. Kadile was caught becasue his

patients

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were
> dying.
>
> Peter Moran

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that chelation

therapy

Quoted message said:

removes heavy metals from
the body. That would suggest that it offers some benefit. While you

seem

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

prefer to focus on unsubstatiated
failures, the practitioners who are utilizing it do so because they

see

Quoted message said:

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

offering benefits. In order to be able to accept
your assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of physicians and

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

substantial portion of the general population
are blind, ignorant imbeciles. Not a proposition that is acceptable.

What we focus on is that the CHEATlationists are offering it as an
alternative to decisive coronary interventions, e.g. CABG and stenting,

when

Quoted message said:

it offers no demonstrable opening of coronary arteries. Thus, it leaves

the

Quoted message said:

poor soul with a false sense of security, as they may 'feel better' but

the

Quoted message said:

diesease is still there, waiting to ZAP them with a massive fatal

coronary

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

occlusion.

That is why CHEATlation is criticized. The removal of the miniscule

amounts

Quoted message said:

of heavy metals in the plaque may or may not be beneficial. I have found

no

Quoted message said:

studies showing that it is.

Have you seen any studies that suggest it harms people?

EDTA CHEATlation runs serious risks. The fact that you are not aware of this
yet push it as a treatment is scandalous. Imagine if a RealDoctor failed to
advise about side effects. You would be bleating and braying all over the
place. So would you know who.

We know of many who

Quoted message said:

believe it has helped so
in the absence of any proof to the contrary why wouldn't we accept that as

a

Quoted message said:

plan.

Because it has not addressed the underlying disease process and opened
clogged and narrowed arteries. IOW, it has left a time bomb in their body.

We see people taking

Quoted message said:

pure ginseng with chemo and radiation therapy and none of the normally
accepted side effects occur.

Changed subject....snip the rest...

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Chelation Therapy cont'd...
From: "Dave Wickware" [email hidden]
Date: 6/11/2004 10:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of heavy metals in the plaque may or may not be beneficial. I have found

no

Quoted message said:

studies showing that it is.

Have you seen any studies that suggest it harms people? We know of many who
believe it has helped so

"not harming" is not a study of efficacy...ie...not doing ANYTHING also does
not harm...

Quoted message said:

We see people taking
pure ginseng with chemo and radiation therapy and none of the normally
accepted side effects occur. There
is no study conclusively explaining the mechanism that makes this

actually at this time we have a 39 year old friend with breast
cancer...undergoing chemo and radiation...she relates that times are a
changing.."they" now are better at controlling the unwanted side effects of
chemo...no nausea,,no vomiting ..yes hair loss..yes blood count disruption
(controlled by Epogen and Neupogen)

so you have no way of saying it is the ginseng that is affecting a change..but
in the regimen of chemo itself...

as for athersclerosis and chelation...show me pre and post angiographic proof
of regression of plaque....nothing else will "prove" that chelation has done a
thing

hawki.....

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Chelation Therapy cont'd...
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 6/10/2004 11:20 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:
<[email hidden]>

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden].

com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...

This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the NEJM, but it is
obviously written by a chelationist.

Where did you really get it, Dave?

Herein lies one of the significant differences between the medically

trained

Quoted message said:

perspective and the open-minded
perspective of the holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his hat on a thought
that is totally irrelevant, and misses the
importance of the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a serious threat to life
and limb, and despite about fifty years of usage, none of the "doctors"
using it have been able to show it having any objective effect upon the
disease, despite the ready availability of the appropriate technology. It
was always obvious that one of those "doctors" was responsible for this
piece.

A blatant LIE.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I work with physicians who have learned
that they must see the bigger picture
in order to receive the satisfaction of healing someone.
The process
involves using traditional medicine to buy the
time to heal the patient. The healing process can't be completed until
prescription is no longer required. I know this
on a first hand basis. The man who wrote this piece and quotes the NEJM is
an associate of mine who has totally
integrated holistic medicine into is medical practise. He is a physician

who

Quoted message said:

is now able to heal.

Thank you. This is still objectionable puffery about a treatment that many
have tried and found useless. Kadile was caught becasue his patients were
dying.

Peter Moran

OH? How many died???

Was Dr Wilson caught when he committed FRAUD??????

YES. But he remains on staff!!!!!!

So much for the open mindness of Peter Moran.

Jan

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Chelation Therapy cont'd...
From: [email hidden] (Jan)
Date: 6/11/2004 11:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a serious threat to life
and limb, and despite about fifty years of usage, none of the "doctors"
using it have been able to show it having any objective effect upon the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

disease, despite the ready availability of the appropriate technology. It
was always obvious that one of those "doctors" was responsible for this
piece.

Quoted message said:

A blatant LIE.

OH???? perhaps you have the angiographic proof that plaque has regressed with
chelation?? cuz no one else has posted any..

thus...perhaps symptomatic relief...sorta like yours within hours of your
mercury removal...called "crazy people like Jan WANT to believe that they are
better so soon"...when obviously the levels of mercury were HIGHER right after
the removal..

and you KNOW it...so YOU ARE A LIAR

not to mention a crazy loon....

perhaps you could try Aricept...supposed to slow the progression of organic
brain syndrome..

hawki.....

(Hawki63) said:

thus...perhaps symptomatic relief...sorta like yours within hours of your
mercury removal...called "crazy people like Jan WANT to believe that they are
better so soon"...when obviously the levels of mercury were HIGHER right after
the removal..

and you KNOW it...so YOU ARE A LIAR

Cue Jan to attack you for believing my "lies". The only problem is my
"lies" are simply repeating verbatim what Jan Drew said wrt her
amalgam history.

Sadly Jan is completely unable to reconcile how she could feel better
than she had in two years within hours of having amalgams removed AND
able to go out line dancing a week later when the pain in her feet
transiently (due to placebo) disappeared when her mercury level was
likely the highest in her ENTIRE LIFE!!. And Jan said that she was
able to go out line dancing because the removal of 8 amalgams made a
difference. Again the removal of 8 amalgams caused a *massive*
outpouring of mercury into her system and when she went line dancing
after being bed ridden, her mercury level was the highest in her life.

So all Jan can do is make spurious claims to the internet service
providers of those who expose her lies. She is a complete psychopath.
Sad that.

Aloha,

Rich
-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...
>
> This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the NEJM, but it is
> obviously written by a chelationist.
>
> Where did you really get it, Dave?

Herein lies one of the significant differences between the medically

trained

Quoted message said:

perspective and the open-minded
perspective of the holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his hat on a

thought

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that is totally irrelevant, and misses the
importance of the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a serious threat to

life

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and limb, and despite about fifty years of usage, none of the "doctors"
using it have been able to show it having any objective effect upon the
disease, despite the ready availability of the appropriate technology.

It

Quoted message said:

was always obvious that one of those "doctors" was responsible for this
piece.

Quoted message said:

I work with physicians who have learned
that they must see the bigger picture
in order to receive the satisfaction of healing someone.
The process
involves using traditional medicine to buy the
time to heal the patient. The healing process can't be completed until
prescription is no longer required. I know this
on a first hand basis. The man who wrote this piece and quotes the

NEJM

Quoted message said:

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an associate of mine who has totally
integrated holistic medicine into is medical practise. He is a

physician

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who

Quoted message said:

is now able to heal.

Thank you. This is still objectionable puffery about a treatment that

many

Quoted message said:

have tried and found useless. Kadile was caught becasue his patients

were

Quoted message said:

dying.

Peter Moran

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that chelation

therapy

Quoted message said:

removes heavy metals from
the body. That would suggest that it offers some benefit. While you seem

to

Quoted message said:

prefer to focus on unsubstatiated
failures, the practitioners who are utilizing it do so because they see it
offering benefits. In order to be able to accept
your assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of physicians and a
substantial portion of the general population
are blind, ignorant imbeciles. Not a proposition that is acceptable.

Why not? There is so much that you do not know about medicine, it is hard
to know where to start to inform you, assuming that is possible..

For over two thousand years physicians believed that bleeding the patient
could help cure many serious medical conditions. Egyptian physicians were
convinced that crocodile dung in various orifices was a useful remedy, as
were fly specks scraped off the wall. If you look at the history of all
civilisations there is such a vast array of healing ritiuals and unlikely
remedies and superstitious theories of illness as to make it absoluteley
clear that shamans and physicians are being misled all the time as to the
effects of their treatments.. "Doctors" are the very worst, because they
are more arrogant, yet superimpose yet another layer of misperceptions and
biases upon the many that we know affect the patient.

That is before you throw in numerous pet remedies that have been used on
thousands ofpatients in the last century but shown subsequently to work no
better than sham treatments. Doctors are wrong all the time.

And don't you understand that even with atherosclerotic symptoms at least
15% of patients will feel improved from placebo in hundreds of clinical
trials, mostly from natural variations in the progress of the illness?

Peter Moran.

Peter Moran

You are an ingenue within medicine if you do not know about the many
illusions that can produce a false perception of effectiveness for medical
treatments. It is hard to know where to start. It has been proved a
million times over. that

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that chelation

therapy

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

removes heavy metals from
the body. That would suggest that it offers some benefit.

...for removing heavy metals from the body. If I use insulin because
of its usefulness in treating diabetes, does that mean it will work on
my plantar warts, too?

Quoted message said:

While you seem to
prefer to focus on unsubstatiated
failures,

...a body in a coffin, dead of atherosclerotic coronary artery disease
is pretty substantiated, don't you think?

If you are trying to tell us that chelation therapy causes atherosclerotic
coronary artery disease, you don't have
any idea what you are talking about. So, substantiated? Duhhhh!

Mark, a learned name in these parts, is not trying to tell you that. Neither
was I. I will combine our points:

1. There is no proof that chelation opens clogged arteries.

2. Clogged arteries cause death.

3. People may 'feel better' with chelation, but, they are not better, since
the underlying time bombs in their arteries are wating to go off.

Boom! People die.

Get it?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the practitioners who are utilizing it do so because they see it
offering benefits.

...to their wallets, I'm sure.

I will assume you are applying your personal criteria and merely judging
that others are as shallow and ]
merciless. You would be incorrect, again.

Nope. Since there is no proof that CHEATlation opens arteries, those scum
scking, money grubbing CHEATlationists are sucking money away for people and
leaving them no better than when they walked through the door.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In order to be able to accept
your assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of physicians and

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

substantial portion of the general population
are blind, ignorant imbeciles.

...no, just greedy or gullible. (And I'd like to see your source for
this apparent claim that 15% of medical doctors prescribe or support
chelation therapy for treatment of atherosclerotic disease.)

Quoted message said:

Not a proposition that is acceptable.

Mark, MD

That is not what I said. One of your problem appears to be reading for
comprehension.

Now, that is what I call the pot calling the kettle black.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Wickware said:

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that chelation therapy
removes heavy metals from
the body. That would suggest that it offers some benefit.

Logical fallacy used: non sequitir.

Yes, if you have heavy metal poisoning, chelation therapy will very
likely help you. However, it does NOT follow (the meaning of "non
sequitir," BTW) from that observation that chelation therapy will also
help you if you have atherosclerotic coronary artery or peripheral
vascular disease.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Wickware said:

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-June 11, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]
.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> >
>

news:[email hidden]
u...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >
> > > "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...
> > >
> > > This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the NEJM, but it

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > obviously written by a chelationist.
> > >
> > > Where did you really get it, Dave?
> >
> > Herein lies one of the significant differences between the medically
> trained
> > perspective and the open-minded
> > perspective of the holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his hat on a
thought
> > that is totally irrelevant, and misses the
> > importance of the bigger picture.
>
> The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a serious threat to

life

Quoted message said:

> and limb, and despite about fifty years of usage, none of the

"doctors"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> using it have been able to show it having any objective effect upon

the

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Quoted message said:

> disease, despite the ready availability of the appropriate technology.
It
> was always obvious that one of those "doctors" was responsible for

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> piece.
>
> >I work with physicians who have learned
> > that they must see the bigger picture
> > in order to receive the satisfaction of healing someone.
> >The process
> > involves using traditional medicine to buy the
> > time to heal the patient. The healing process can't be completed

until

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > prescription is no longer required. I know this
> > on a first hand basis. The man who wrote this piece and quotes the

NEJM

Quoted message said:

is
> > an associate of mine who has totally
> > integrated holistic medicine into is medical practise. He is a

physician

Quoted message said:

> who
> > is now able to heal.
>
> Thank you. This is still objectionable puffery about a treatment

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

many
> have tried and found useless. Kadile was caught becasue his patients
were
> dying.
>
> Peter Moran

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that chelation

therapy

Quoted message said:

removes heavy metals from
the body. That would suggest that it offers some benefit. While you seem

to

Quoted message said:

prefer to focus on unsubstatiated
failures, the practitioners who are utilizing it do so because they see

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

offering benefits. In order to be able to accept
your assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of physicians and a
substantial portion of the general population
are blind, ignorant imbeciles. Not a proposition that is acceptable.

What we focus on is that the CHEATlationists are offering it as an
alternative to decisive coronary interventions, e.g. CABG and stenting,

when

Quoted message said:

it offers no demonstrable opening of coronary arteries. Thus, it leaves

the

Quoted message said:

poor soul with a false sense of security, as they may 'feel better' but

the

Quoted message said:

diesease is still there, waiting to ZAP them with a massive fatal coronary
occlusion.

That is why CHEATlation is criticized. The removal of the miniscule

amounts

Quoted message said:

of heavy metals in the plaque may or may not be beneficial. I have found

no

Quoted message said:

studies showing that it is.

Have you seen any studies that suggest it harms people?

Yes. Well-documented risks of chelation therapy include kidney damage
and changes in electrolyte balance leading to cardiac arrhythmias,
sometimes fatal.

Quoted message said:

We know of many who
believe it has helped so
in the absence of any proof to the contrary why wouldn't we accept that as a
plan.

Because of the placebo effect. In the randomized studies for chelation
therapy, with the exception of the one study too small to show anything,
it has never been shown to produce more relief of symptoms than placebo.

[Snip]

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Wickware said:

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

While you seem to
prefer to focus on unsubstatiated
failures,

...a body in a coffin, dead of atherosclerotic coronary artery disease
is pretty substantiated, don't you think?

If you are trying to tell us that chelation therapy causes atherosclerotic
coronary artery disease, you don't have
any idea what you are talking about. So, substantiated? Duhhhh!

No, idiot. He is trying to tell you that chelation therapy does not
REVERSE atherosclerotic coronary artery disease, as chelationists claim
it does. Consequently, the person who relies on chelation therapy to
treat his atherosclerotic coronary artery disease is likely to end up in
a box dead of his untreated disease.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Wickware said:

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-June 11, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What we focus on is that the CHEATlationists are offering it as an
alternative to decisive coronary interventions, e.g. CABG and
stenting, when it offers no demonstrable opening of coronary
arteries. Thus, it leaves the poor soul with a false sense of
security, as they may 'feel better' but the diesease is still
there, waiting to ZAP them with a massive fatal coronary occlusion.

That is why CHEATlation is criticized. The removal of the miniscule
amounts of heavy metals in the plaque may or may not be
beneficial. I have found no studies showing that it is.

Have you seen any studies that suggest it harms people?

Any sort of IV treatment has the potential to do harm. There can be
infection from the site of the IV. There can be harm from
contaminated solutions, or the patient may have a bad reaction to the
substance being administered.

In other words, Spammin Dave, you have once again proved you are a
moron. You're saying that this decidedly non-cheap treatment is just
fine because *you* don't happen to know of any bad results from it.

But since we have no evidence that it does any real good, either, the
only sensible course of action is to say "as long as we're going to
use ineffective treatments, let's use ones that are a lot cheaper than
multiple EDTA IVs."

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)