Re: Car vs. Bike vs. the Law

Quoted message said:

Someone said:

Quoted message said:

Just saw this. As I've had a few memorable moments with aggressive
drivers

http://tinyurl.com/7asqu

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I thought I'd post this legal advice from Bob Moinske:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/9204.0.html

Quoted message said:

He forgot Assault With a Deadly Weapon (the car is a deadly weapon),
which is a felony.

Which is the reason why a Highway patrol officer told a "trucker" to
beat it after he saw the guy bump me with his truck and I pounded my
fist on his hood and said "Cut it out"! He explained how serious an
offense that would be before a judge and the guy (with his woman)
vamoosed. This was in front of the San Gregorio Store, a common
hangout for Bicyclists, Bikers and "truckers", none of whom
communicate with each other on the premises. The bicyclists are least
welcome from the demeanor of the store clerks and the destructive
bicycle rack they offer, a pipe device with a single row of vertical
bars spaced about four inches apart.

Jobst Brandt

Was there a reason you didn't press charges against the trucker? And
are you in effect saying the CHP officer was an accomplice to the
trucker's "escape," despite witnessing the assault incident?

Someone said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Just saw this. As I've had a few memorable moments with
> aggressive drivers

http://tinyurl.com/7asqu

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I thought I'd post this legal advice from Bob Moinske:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/9204.0.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He forgot Assault With a Deadly Weapon (the car is a deadly
weapon), which is a felony.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Which is the reason why a Highway patrol officer told a "trucker"
to beat it after he saw the guy bump me with his truck and I
pounded my fist on his hood and said "Cut it out"! He explained
how serious an offense that would be before a judge and the guy
(with his woman) vamoosed. This was in front of the San Gregorio
Store, a common hangout for Bicyclists, Bikers and "truckers", none
of whom communicate with each other on the premises. The
bicyclists are least welcome from the demeanor of the store clerks
and the destructive bicycle rack they offer, a pipe device with a
single row of vertical bars spaced about four inches apart.

Quoted message said:

Was there a reason you didn't press charges against the trucker?
And are you in effect saying the CHP officer was an accomplice to
the trucker's "escape," despite witnessing the assault incident?

The reason was that I put a nice dent in the guys hood of a brand new
pickup truck and I felt he was punished enough. These truckers take
their vehicles personally and the blood pressure was visibly extreme.
I was standing there in front of the store where the parking lot
blends with the road and he felt I should get out of the way even
though I was probably not on the road and who cares. He drove up,
honked and didn't stop until he saw that he had moved my bicycle under
me. That's when I slammed my fist on his hood and yelled "cut it
out!"

Since then I had a similar experience in Brig Switzerland. That
driver was hustled out of the scene by the people who were next to me
in the crosswalk. His dent was probably more expensive, considering
it was a more civilized car. While i banged on his hood the people
around me jumped back, convinced he wasn't going to stop when his
bumper hit my leg. I was ready to do a PLF on his car if he went
farther. A bicycle being walked in a crosswalk was a red flag for
this guy.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Since then I had a similar experience in Brig Switzerland. That
driver was hustled out of the scene by the people who were next to me
in the crosswalk. His dent was probably more expensive, considering
it was a more civilized car. While i banged on his hood the people
around me jumped back, convinced he wasn't going to stop when his
bumper hit my leg. I was ready to do a PLF on his car if he went
farther. A bicycle being walked in a crosswalk was a red flag for
this guy.

I've had that happen, right in the middle of a big bike-plentiful city in
bike-plentiful Netherlands. It was a big, expensive, nearly new Mercedes.
I was crossing in front of it with my bike beside me, it kept inching
forward, I stopped walking when it was about 4 inches away, and it hit me
in the shin. I'm not sure what I did at that point -- I probably just
shouted at him. Anyway, the driver got out and tried to justify himself
("If you'd just kept walking I wouldn't have hit you!" Well, maybe not,
but it would have been very close and he *would* have hit the bike.). We
shouted at each other some more, he drove me into a corner against the
car, and eventually I decided to just walk away, but not before giving the
door of the car he backed me against a good kick (well, I write 'decided',
but I wasn't particularly rational at the time -- the guy was twice as big
as me, teenage kid, and the adrenaline was flowing copiously, as it is in
fact now writing about it a decade later). The guy came after me, caught
up with me half a block away, grabbed me by the lapels, and physically
dragged me back, screaming all the way about how it wasn't his car, but
the bank's, in order to show me much damage I had done to his car.

Absolutely nothing.

He eventually calmed down a little bit and drove off, or seemed to, but
when I came out of the store I went into to cool off, both my tyres were
slashed.

In retrospect, I should probably have reported him the the police, and in
fact one or two bystanders came up to me to offer their help as witnesses,
but I did what I usually did in cases like that back then, which is blow
them off and go stand somewhere to let the adrenaline dissipate.

Jasper

Quoted message said:

...the San Gregorio Store, a common
hangout for Bicyclists.... The
bicyclists are least welcome from the demeanor of the
store clerks and the destructive bicycle rack they
offer,...

Funny, I've been in there many times in bike gear and
never been treated with anything but friendly and efficient
service. My bike and those of all present fit just fine and
with no damage, much less "destruction," on the racks, plural,
available.

Perhaps someone is putting out some not-so-friendly vibes
himself?

Quoted message said:

a pipe device with a single row of vertical bars spaced
about four inches apart.
Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Since then I had a similar experience in Brig Switzerland. That
driver was hustled out of the scene by the people who were next to me
in the crosswalk. His dent was probably more expensive, considering
it was a more civilized car. While i banged on his hood the people
around me jumped back, convinced he wasn't going to stop when his
bumper hit my leg. I was ready to do a PLF on his car if he went
farther. A bicycle being walked in a crosswalk was a red flag for
this guy.

Jobst Brandt

Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement. Three weeks
of learning how to fall down being ingrained in my head has paid off
for a lifetime of crashes that could have been much worse.

JD

JD said:

Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement.

PLF?
PFL?

Ron Ruff said:

JD said:

Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement.

PLF?
PFL?

Parachute Landing Fall

Pretty F***ed Landing

JD all the way (and then some)

Ron Ruff said:

Quoted message said:

Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement.

Quoted message said:

PLF?
PFL?

Parachute Landing Fall

aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
civilians.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Ron Ruff said:

Quoted message said:

Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement.

Quoted message said:

PLF?
PFL?

Parachute Landing Fall

aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
civilians.

Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes. Transfers all the
bumps and bruises back to the mountain bikers.

An ex-Ranger buddy of mine tells some great stories about jumping with
the old round chutes though... I saw him put those skills into action
once when he got whacked by a drunk on a four-wheeler (something I
hope I never get to see again...)

Mark "would rather rock & roll than drop & roll" Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Mark Hickey said:

Quoted message said:

Ron Ruff said:

>Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement.

Quoted message said:

PLF?
PFL?

Parachute Landing Fall

aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
civilians.

Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes.

Not true, emergency chutes are still round.
http://www.nationalparachute.com/page3.html

Shawn

Shawn sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet said:

Mark Hickey said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
civilians.

Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes.

Not true, emergency chutes are still round.
http://www.nationalparachute.com/page3.html

That's why I said "virtually"... the 'chutes that are built to recover
entire aircraft are also round, as are those that recover
spacecraft... but on a "percentage popped" basis, I would imagine it's
way under 1% total.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Mark Hickey said:

Shawn sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet said:

Mark Hickey said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
>pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
>parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
>Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
>civilians.

Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes.

Not true, emergency chutes are still round.
http://www.nationalparachute.com/page3.html

That's why I said "virtually"... the 'chutes that are built to recover
entire aircraft are also round, as are those that recover
spacecraft... but on a "percentage popped" basis, I would imagine it's
way under 1% total.

Mark Hickey

I'll take that bet: http://www.airbornesystems-na.com/troop2.html

Have you ever seen a mass tactical airborne exercise? Heavy equipment,
CDS, LAPES and personnel use round chutes to this day in the military.
Bet me that under 1% popped and I'll take all of your money.

JD

Mark Hickey said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Parachute Landing Fall

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
civilians.

Quoted message said:

Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes. Transfers all the
bumps and bruises back to the mountain bikers.

Quoted message said:

An ex-Ranger buddy of mine tells some great stories about jumping with
the old round chutes though... I saw him put those skills into action
once when he got whacked by a drunk on a four-wheeler (something I
hope I never get to see again...)

They still need those skills for when the wind is blowing, and/or the
ground isn't flat.

Matt O.

Mark Hickey said:

Shawn sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet said:

Mark Hickey said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
>pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
>parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
>Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
>civilians.

Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes.

Not true, emergency chutes are still round.
http://www.nationalparachute.com/page3.html

That's why I said "virtually"... the 'chutes that are built to recover
entire aircraft are also round, as are those that recover
spacecraft... but on a "percentage popped" basis, I would imagine it's
way under 1% total.

I'm sure your right civilians-wise (see JDs post). I was thinking of
chutes worn, mostly in gliders and aerobatics. The only time I ever
opened mine were when I was retiring an ancient chute I didn't trust
(came with the glider) and my new chute, at the rigger's loft.

Shawn

Mark Hickey said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

PLF?
PFL?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Parachute Landing Fall

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
civilians.

Quoted message said:

Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to
since virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes. Transfers
all the bumps and bruises back to the mountain bikers.

Combat jumps are made at the highest safe rate for landing to minimize
exposure to small arms fire. I'm sure you would not like to go as
slow as possible, in a jump behind enemy lines.

Quoted message said:

An ex-Ranger buddy of mine tells some great stories about jumping
with the old round chutes though... I saw him put those skills into
action once when he got whacked by a drunk on a four-wheeler
(something I hope I never get to see again...)

It's not the shape of the chute but its rate of descent that is
important for combat use.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey said:

Quoted message said:

>> Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> PLF?
> PFL?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Parachute Landing Fall

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
civilians.

Quoted message said:

Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to
since virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes. Transfers
all the bumps and bruises back to the mountain bikers.

Combat jumps are made at the highest safe rate for landing to minimize
exposure to small arms fire. I'm sure you would not like to go as
slow as possible, in a jump behind enemy lines.

In a static-line jump a low drop altitude is also used to minimize
exposure. True combat jumps have been known to go as low as 500 AGL
with no reserve chute worn.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

An ex-Ranger buddy of mine tells some great stories about jumping
with the old round chutes though... I saw him put those skills into
action once when he got whacked by a drunk on a four-wheeler
(something I hope I never get to see again...)

It's not the shape of the chute but its rate of descent that is
important for combat use.

Jobst Brandt

Which is why modern ram-air parachutes are also applicable in HALO and
HAHO drops as well because an individual with superior canopy control
can get a much quicker rate of descent than a standard MC1-1B or T-10
will allow. Canopy control is the reason so many sport parachutists
make their landings look so soft.

One thing left out of all of this as well would be how heavy is the
air? Even a good PLF can't soften the blow much while jumping a round
'chute in high and dry altitudes.

JD

JD said:

Mark Hickey said:

Shawn sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet said:

Mark Hickey wrote:
> Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
> virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes.

Not true, emergency chutes are still round.
http://www.nationalparachute.com/page3.html

That's why I said "virtually"... the 'chutes that are built to recover
entire aircraft are also round, as are those that recover
spacecraft... but on a "percentage popped" basis, I would imagine it's
way under 1% total.

I'll take that bet: http://www.airbornesystems-na.com/troop2.html

Have you ever seen a mass tactical airborne exercise? Heavy equipment,
CDS, LAPES and personnel use round chutes to this day in the military.
Bet me that under 1% popped and I'll take all of your money.

I can figure the military equipment using round 'chutes (and would
hope that they aren't dropping THAT much equipment out of airplanes
regularly), but I'd hate to jump out of an airplane over people who
want to use me for target practice without being able to control where
I come down (beyond a very narrow cone). Then again, I've heard
stories about mid-air collisions with round 'chutes - I guess it would
just be worse with wings.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey said:

Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to
since virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes. Transfers
all the bumps and bruises back to the mountain bikers.

Combat jumps are made at the highest safe rate for landing to minimize
exposure to small arms fire. I'm sure you would not like to go as
slow as possible, in a jump behind enemy lines.

That's the beauty of a wing - you can drop like a rock when necessary,
and flare to land as soft as on a pillow. Plus, you can fly out of
harm's way a considerable distance if you happened to jump out over a
hot spot.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

An ex-Ranger buddy of mine tells some great stories about jumping
with the old round chutes though... I saw him put those skills into
action once when he got whacked by a drunk on a four-wheeler
(something I hope I never get to see again...)

It's not the shape of the chute but its rate of descent that is
important for combat use.

I wager he was going considerably faster when he hit the ground coming
off that motorcycle though... (otherwise second jumps would be VERY
traumatic).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:54:52 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
civilians.

Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes. Transfers all the
bumps and bruises back to the mountain bikers.

Does that include all the military units? It wasn't so terribly long ago
that I remember some docu mentioning that only the elite .mil guys used
the steerable matresses. Seals and the like.

Jasper