Re: Bicycle at what age?

Jeanne Clelland said:

What's a good age to get a real bike (with training wheels)? My son
is almost 4, and I'm thinking of getting him a bike for his
birthday. My main concern is that we live on a hill with a fair bit
of traffic, so we don't have a great place for him to practice
riding without going somewhere else.

Let him ride a tricycle until he's 5 and then get a bicycle that fits.
Children learn rapidly without training wheels if you take the time
and do not offer any doubt that they can do it. Training wheels make
an unstable tricycle of any bicycle and leave the child riding on a
tilt to one side. It does not teach bicycling. The same people who
find conventional tricycles dangerous because they can fall over in a
turn also believe training wheels are useful.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Piggybacking - apologies...

Quoted message said:

Jeanne Clelland said:

What's a good age to get a real bike (with training wheels)? My son
is almost 4, and I'm thinking of getting him a bike for his
birthday. My main concern is that we live on a hill with a fair bit
of traffic, so we don't have a great place for him to practice
riding without going somewhere else.

How about one of these?

http://kinetics.org.uk/html/like-a-bike.shtml

Cheers, helen s

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"dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

How about one of these?

http://kinetics.org.uk/html/like-a-bike.shtml

Cheers, helen s

For 125GBP and up, I'd rather jut get a little kids bike, and take the
pedals off.

Pete

Quoted message said:

Piggybacking - apologies...

Quoted message said:

Jeanne Clelland said:

What's a good age to get a real bike (with training wheels)? My son
is almost 4, and I'm thinking of getting him a bike for his
birthday. My main concern is that we live on a hill with a fair bit
of traffic, so we don't have a great place for him to practice
riding without going somewhere else.

How about one of these?

http://kinetics.org.uk/html/like-a-bike.shtml

Why not just remove the pedals from a regular bike, and lower the saddle
enough that the child can scoot on the ground? Then you don't need to buy
a whole new bicycle when they're ready for it -- which may be the same day!

--
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
-- James Thurber

Benjamin Lewis said:

Why not just remove the pedals from a regular bike, and lower the
saddle enough that the child can scoot on the ground? Then you
don't need to buy a whole new bicycle when they're ready for it --
which may be the same day!

What's with the removing pedals. Dumbing down your child is not a
good parenting technique. Unless the first years have been extremely
sheltered, children naturally aspire to what others, children and
adults do. By taking off pedals, the condescension begins and is a
symptom of something deeper that I would not want my children to grow
up under. I suspect some parents don't see the benefits of stubbed
toes early in life that teach us what hurts and what not to do.
Discovering that later in life is a pain, both for the individual and
associates, literally.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

How about one of these?
http://kinetics.org.uk/html/like-a-bike.shtml

Looks like a good product to get a child started. A regular bike with
the pedals removed would be similar and could be used for a longer period
of time once your child learns to balance and pedal. The price seems a
bit steep too.
---------------
Alex

Quoted message said:

Benjamin Lewis said:

Why not just remove the pedals from a regular bike, and lower the
saddle enough that the child can scoot on the ground? Then you
don't need to buy a whole new bicycle when they're ready for it --
which may be the same day!

What's with the removing pedals. Dumbing down your child is not a
good parenting technique. Unless the first years have been extremely
sheltered, children naturally aspire to what others, children and
adults do. By taking off pedals, the condescension begins and is a
symptom of something deeper that I would not want my children to grow
up under. I suspect some parents don't see the benefits of stubbed
toes early in life that teach us what hurts and what not to do.
Discovering that later in life is a pain, both for the individual and
associates, literally.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

One of my fondest memories as a child was the struggle and challenge and my
persistence in learning to ride my bike on my own without the training
wheels. I still remember it like it was yesterday. ;-)

Having said that, like many parents I try to remove struggle and obstacle
from my child's experience, and it's probably not a good thing.

We are who we are because of our struggles and triumphs, so the best a
parent can to is help to channel the frustration and brief anger into a
positive result, or better yet, stand back and let it happen naturally.

2 cents...

-B

Jobst Brandt said:

Benjamin Lewis said:

Why not just remove the pedals from a regular bike, and lower the
saddle enough that the child can scoot on the ground? Then you
don't need to buy a whole new bicycle when they're ready for it --
which may be the same day!

What's with the removing pedals.

It's an excellent way for a young child to learn how to balance a
bicycle. There's nothing dumb about it.

<rambling rant snipped>
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

jobst brandt said:

Benjamin Lewis said:

Why not just remove the pedals from a regular bike, and lower the
saddle enough that the child can scoot on the ground? Then you
don't need to buy a whole new bicycle when they're ready for it --
which may be the same day!

What's with the removing pedals. Dumbing down your child is not a
good parenting technique. Unless the first years have been extremely
sheltered, children naturally aspire to what others, children and
adults do. By taking off pedals, the condescension begins and is a
symptom of something deeper that I would not want my children to grow
up under. I suspect some parents don't see the benefits of stubbed
toes early in life that teach us what hurts and what not to do.
Discovering that later in life is a pain, both for the individual and
associates, literally.

Maybe, but I'm not really convinced that this is a case of condescension,
as "training wheels" undoubtedly are. I think it teaches a useful problem
solving skill -- to break up daunting tasks into smaller components which
may be tackled individually. I still do this when I'm learning new things,
so I don't see why it's condescending to teach a child to do the same. I
see no shame in learning to balance and steer before learning to pedal.
There will still be plenty of opportunities for stubbed toes.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
-- James Thurber

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Jeanne Clelland said:

What's a good age to get a real bike (with training wheels)? My son
is almost 4, and I'm thinking of getting him a bike for his
birthday. My main concern is that we live on a hill with a fair bit
of traffic, so we don't have a great place for him to practice
riding without going somewhere else.

Let him ride a tricycle until he's 5 and then get a bicycle that fits.

Maybe it would be best to not even think about getting the kid
a bicycle until he expresses an interest. He would likely
become interested when he finds that several of his friends
and associates ride. Kids' peer networks can be an invaluable
source of cycling education for the youngsters, because they
disseminate among themselves what they've learned from their
older cycling mentors. And they also learn what's cool (and
what isn't), which is part of the fun. That's how I remember
it, anyway.

Introducing children to cycling as a solitary experience sounds
rather bleak and lonely. I think they'd derive much more value,
satisfaction and fun when they electively join the ranks of
their cycling friends.

Rather than using a child's age as an indicator of when they
should or could start riding a bicycle, I'd suggest a better
indicator might be when the child is expanding his or her
social horizons among the other neighbourhood kids. That also
gives them places to ride to, as well as others to ride with.

Of course, all this still leaves Jeanne Clelland's concerns
about her local hill and traffic unaddressed. Off the top
of my head, the only suggestion I can think of is moving to
a more bicycle-friendly (and thereby, child-friendly) area.
Or, just hope the kid doesn't want to ride.

cheers,
Tom

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In article <[email hidden]>,

(Claire Petersky) said:

Another possibility is to get a trail-a-bike or similar contraption
(http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/trailrcy.html) and go riding
together. Using a trailercycle gives a kid a shorter set of list of
things to deal with -- s/he only has to hang on, and optionally pedal.
Other things, like balancing, and negotiating traffic are then largely
up to the adult captain. This is an excellent intermediate step
between tricycling in the driveway, and riding a bike on the street.
You are also modeling for the kid how to handle yourself sensibly on
the road.

I thought about that - I've seen several around here, and they look
really cool - but they're SOOO expensive! Maybe I could find a used
one...

Jeanne

Terry Morse said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why not just remove the pedals from a regular bike, and lower the
saddle enough that the child can scoot on the ground? Then you
don't need to buy a whole new bicycle when they're ready for it --
which may be the same day!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What's with the removing pedals.

Quoted message said:

It's an excellent way for a young child to learn how to balance a
bicycle. There's nothing dumb about it.

That sounds like the child is unable to chew gum and walk at the same
time. How do you propose the child will propel such a bicycle? Don't
tell me it is to inept to pedal. That's what tricycle are for if that
is a problem. I can still recall when I and my brothers learned to
ride along with the rest of the children in our neighborhood. It was
a one day event and that was the end of it. The same was true for my
children.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

"Jeanne Clelland" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Claire Petersky) said:

Another possibility is to get a trail-a-bike or similar contraption
(http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/trailrcy.html) and go riding
together. Using a trailercycle gives a kid a shorter set of list of
things to deal with -- s/he only has to hang on, and optionally pedal.
Other things, like balancing, and negotiating traffic are then largely
up to the adult captain. This is an excellent intermediate step
between tricycling in the driveway, and riding a bike on the street.
You are also modeling for the kid how to handle yourself sensibly on
the road.

I thought about that - I've seen several around here, and they look
really cool - but they're SOOO expensive! Maybe I could find a used
one...

I thought so too, but in retrospect, it was one of the best purchases I ever
made. 4 1/2 is about the right starting age. If you do a lot of family riding,
the trailer-bike (or tandem) is the only way I know of to let everyone ride
together. My daughter loved ours, rode with me for 5 years, 1,000's of miles,
and wouldn't let me sell it after she outgrew it last year. A child should
have their own bike too (I know, more expense), they're really 2 separate
issues. Used kids bikes are easy to come by, trailer-bikes are much harder, I
had many people offer to buy mine while we were still riding it, so a lot of
people seem to be looking to reduce the costs. Looking back at it now, it was
a very worthwhile investment, if I resold it, it would only be more so.

Jobst Brandt said:

Terry Morse said:

Quoted message said:

What's with the removing pedals.

Quoted message said:

It's an excellent way for a young child to learn how to balance a
bicycle. There's nothing dumb about it.

That sounds like the child is unable to chew gum and walk at the same
time. How do you propose the child will propel such a bicycle?

Gee, I dunno. His feet, maybe. That's the way bicycles were first
propelled.

Quoted message said:

Don't
tell me it is to inept to pedal. That's what tricycle are for if that
is a problem. I can still recall when I and my brothers learned to
ride along with the rest of the children in our neighborhood. It was
a one day event and that was the end of it. The same was true for my
children.

Well, bully for you and your children. That's the way I learned,
too, for what it's worth. But I probably could have learned sooner
with a true "push bike" (no pedals).
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

The discussion on teaching a child to ride has included some rather strong
views on the value (or lack thereof) of training wheels. I must say, every
time I see a little kid struggling with a training wheel setup, I feel sorry
for him/her. It doesn't really handle like a bike, and I think the odd way
the bike must feel really interferes with proper riding. This has led me to
an idea that may solve the problem, and satisfy both sides of the argument,
as well as the child.

Suppose the training wheels, instead of being rigidly constructed, contained
hinges, or pivots, and were supported by a spring/shock absorber type
diagonal brace. As the kid rides, he/she gets training wheel type support.
In the early stages of learning, the springs can be adjusted at a stiff
setting, and this can be backed off gradually as the kid gains learns to
balance and gains confidence, until, voila, the the wheels are doing
nothing, and are no longer needed.

I would build this if I had any small kids, or if I wanted to get rich in
the bicycle accessory business :-), but for now, I would like to know if the
rest of you think the idea is any good. Maybe it's already been tried.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Leo Lichtman said:

Suppose the training wheels, instead of being rigidly constructed, contained
hinges, or pivots, and were supported by a spring/shock absorber type
diagonal brace. As the kid rides, he/she gets training wheel type support.
In the early stages of learning, the springs can be adjusted at a stiff
setting, and this can be backed off gradually as the kid gains learns to
balance and gains confidence, until, voila, the the wheels are doing
nothing, and are no longer needed.

I don't know. I'm wondering if this would just give the kid
strange sensory inputs as he or she learns to counter-balance
and steer as the bike leans one way or the other?

The traditional method of incrementally raising conventional
training wheels is a lot simpler, and I think a child would
get more of a feel for /really/ balancing an unencumbered
bicycle. Conventional training wheels are there to prevent
the bike from leaning too far over anyway. And fewer moving
parts means fewer things to break (simplicity means reliability.)

It's an interesting idea, though. Maybe it could be
adapted and applied in some other way, like perhaps
suspension systems for tippier adult tricycle configs.

cheers,
Tom

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Quoted message said:

Jeanne Clelland wrote

Quoted message said:

What's a good age to get a real bike (with training wheels)? My son is
almost 4, and I'm thinking of getting him a bike for his birthday. My
main concern is that we live on a hill with a fair bit of traffic, so we
don't have a great place for him to practice riding without going
somewhere else.

I dimly remember being on a bike without training wheels at about age 4, I
may have had some kind of scooter before that.

Friends of mine have a 3 yr old who is having an absolute ball on a bike
with 16" wheels and training wheels- the parents and I agree that the
training wheels are somewhat of a crutch, but they haven't gotten around to
taking them off. I've described to them the method suggested on this NG and
others (pedals off, seat fully lowered, let the kid push off with his feet
until he learns to balance on two wheels), and I may bring a pedal wrench
the next time I see them, just to see what happens. If I do, I'll post a
report on this NG.

Helen's link to a wooden bicycle is interesting, the bikes look really well
made and nicely thought out, but GBP125 / US$225 is an awful lot of money
for a 3 or 4 year old's bike.
--
mark

Training wheels are for the parents - they need them to feel safe. Kids
don't need them. If they have the balance to walk & run then they have the
balance to ride a bike.

The real question is do they have the perception, comprehension and
reasoning to understand braking and when to use it. I hear coaster brakes
(or any brakes controled by the feet) are easier to use by the youngest.
Anyone have info on this?

Bruce

In article said:

Jeanne Clelland <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

What's a good age to get a real bike (with training wheels)? My son is
almost 4, and I'm thinking of getting him a bike for his birthday. My
main concern is that we live on a hill with a fair bit of traffic, so we
don't have a great place for him to practice riding without going
somewhere else.

Depend. My daughter got a bike when she was 5 year. And no training wheels. I
placed a long rod behind the seat and ran after her learning her how to ride
the bike. After 1 hour I could let her ride on her own. Today, she is ride the
bike with much better skill than other girls at the same age.

So drop the training wheels and let your son learn how to ride the bike as it
should be ridden. Training wheels are no-no...

I'm doing the same with my son now, but he seem to need more time to learn how
to ride the bike. There is so many other things that he want to do when we are
training, so he need more time to learn how to ride a bike.

--
Jørn Dahl-Stamnes