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Re: Ascorbic acid study

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
31 July 2003
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1 August 2003
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Peter Moran
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  1. "Lou" <lou(nospam)@411.com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Lancet. 2001 Mar 3;357(9257):657-63. Related Articles, Links

    Comment in:
    Lancet. 2001 Jul 7;358(9275):71-2.

    Relation between plasma ascorbic acid and mortality in men and women in
    EPIC-Norfolk prospective study: a prospective population study. European
    Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition.

    Khaw KT, Bingham S, Welch A, Luben R, Wareham N, Oakes S, Day N.

    Department of Public Health and Primary Care, Institute of Public Health,
    University of Cambridge School of Clinical Medicine, UK.
    [email hidden]

    BACKGROUND: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) might be protective for several
    chronic diseases. However, findings from prospective studies that relate
    ascorbic acid to cardiovascular disease or cancer are not consistent. We
    aimed to assess the relation between plasma ascorbic acid and subsequent
    mortality due to all causes, cardiovascular disease, ischaemic heart
    disease, and cancer. METHODS: We prospectively examined for 4 years the
    relation between plasma ascorbic acid concentrations and mortality due to
    all causes, and to cardiovascular disease, ischaemic heart disease, and
    cancer in 19 496 men and women aged 45-79 years. We recruited individuals


    by

    Quoted message said:

    post using age-sex registers of general practices. Participants completed


    a

    Quoted message said:

    health and lifestyle questionnaire and were examined at a clinic visit.


    They

    Quoted message said:

    were followed-up for causes of death for about 4 years. Individuals were
    divided into sex-specific quintiles of plasma ascorbic acid. We used the


    Cox

    Quoted message said:

    proportional hazard model to determine the effect of ascorbic acid and


    other

    Quoted message said:

    risk factors on mortality. FINDINGS: Plasma ascorbic acid concentration


    was

    Quoted message said:

    inversely related to mortality from all-causes, and from cardiovascular
    disease, and ischaemic heart disease in men and women. Risk of mortality


    in

    Quoted message said:

    the top ascorbic acid quintile was about half the risk in the lowest
    quintile (p<0.0001). The relation with mortality was continuous through


    the

    Quoted message said:

    whole distribution of ascorbic acid concentrations. 20 micromol/L rise in
    plasma ascorbic acid concentration, equivalent to about 50 g per day
    increase in fruit and vegetable intake, was associated with about a 20%
    reduction in risk of all-cause mortality (p<0.0001), independent of age,
    systolic blood pressure, blood cholesterol, cigarette smoking habit,
    diabetes, and supplement use. Ascorbic acid was inversely related to


    cancer

    Quoted message said:

    mortality in men but not women. INTERPRETATION: Small increases in fruit


    and

    Quoted message said:

    vegetable intake of about one serving daily has encouraging prospects for
    possible prevention of disease.

    PMID: 11247548 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Interesting finding that the effect was "independent of supplement use".
    It tends to reinforce the possibility that getting your vitamin C from the
    diet is preferable to getting it from supplements, due to other qualities of
    fruit and vegatables. Hence the ending recommendation.

    Or, perhaps more accurately, the results simply reflect what we already
    knew, that a diet rich in fruit and vegetables is healthy, and vitamin C
    levels show the amount of fruit and vegetables ingested..

    LOu, it is an utter waste of time taking massive doses of Vitamin C for
    reasons other than the ones Eric has put. It is just not utilised. Here
    is an ealrier post explaining why -----.

    "The feet has been largely cut out from under Pauling's ideas on megavitamin
    C. It always was extremely naive medically to assume that you only got
    diarrhoea from a chemical substance when the body stopped consuming it, but
    that is not the half of it.

    Dr Andrew Weil, the alt.med guru, and one of the less flaky ones, recently
    explained --

    (Published: 8/5/99) Many of you have heard that I've reduced my recommended
    dosage of vitamin C from 2,000 to 6,000 mg divided into three doses a day to
    only 200 to 500 mg divided into two doses. I made the change after I
    examined two recent studies that show lower levels of ascorbic acid more
    than saturate the body's tissues, and thus are enough to protect against
    cancer, heart disease and other chronic illnesses.
    A review of clinical trials published in the April 21st issue of the Journal
    of the American Medical Association concluded that 200 mg a day is the
    maximum human cells can absorb, making anything above that level a waste.
    The second study came from the Linus Pauling Institute (Pauling himself took
    18,000 mg of C per day), published in the June issue of the American Journal
    of Clinical Nutrition. It identified a similar dose, 120 to 200 mg, as the
    optimal amount for reducing the risk of cardiovascular disease, cancer,
    cataracts and other chronic conditions. I wouldn't worry if you've been
    taking the higher dosages I've recommended in the past as vitamin C is water
    soluble and anything not used by the body quickly passes out. In fact, I
    still recommend higher dosages to those not getting at least five servings
    of fruits and vegetables as part of their daily diet.

    This is closer to original sources --

    "New insights into the physiology and pharmacology of vitamin C

    Sebastian J. Padayatty, Mark Levine

    CMAJ 2001;164(3):353-5 [PDF]

    When given orally, ascorbic acid is well absorbed at lower doses, but
    absorption decreases as the dose increases. Thus, median bioavailability
    following an oral dose is 87% for 30 mg, 80% for 100 mg, 72% for 200 mg and
    63% for 500 mg. Less than 50% of a 1250-mg dose is absorbed, and most of the
    absorbed dose is excreted in the urine.3,8 Ascorbic acid is not protein
    bound, so it is filtered and reabsorbed by the kidneys in healthy subjects
    but is lost in patients who have been hemodialyzed. Ascorbic acid begins to
    appear in urine at doses above 100 mg/day, corresponding to a plasma
    concentration of about 60 µmol/L, at which point plasma is 70% saturated and
    circulating white blood cells are fully saturated. Decreased bioavailability
    and renal excretion keep plasma vitamin C at less than 100 µmol/L, even with
    an oral dose of 1000 mg. In men at steady state, a 30-mg daily intake
    results in a mean plasma concentration of 9 µmol/L, 60 mg results in25
    µmol/L, 100 mg in 56 µmol/L and 200 mg in 75 µmol/L. Thus, the
    dose-concentration relationship is sigmoidal, with the steep portion of the
    curve lying between 30 mg and 100 mg of oral vitamin C daily.3,8 Doses
    greater than 500 mg daily contribute little to plasma or tissue stores.
    Circulating white blood cells contain 10-30 times the plasma concentrations
    of vitamin C."

    At least our fish should be healthy, or are they a species that makes their
    own Vitamin C?

    Peter Moran

    Reinforcing what ERic has said about larger doses of Vitamin C

    Quoted message said:


    (End of Abstract)

    My Take:
    Note: "mortality due to all causes".
    Just think of what higher levels induced via vitamin c supplementation


    would

    Quoted message said:

    provide.
    I'm sticking to my 8 - 10 Grams of C a day. (For the last 11 years).
    Lou

  2. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Ascorbic acid study
    From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    Date: 7/30/2003 8:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    "Lou" <lou(nospam)@411.com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Lancet. 2001 Mar 3;357(9257):657-63. Related Articles, Links

    Comment in:
    Lancet. 2001 Jul 7;358(9275):71-2.

    Relation between plasma ascorbic acid and mortality in men and women in
    EPIC-Norfolk prospective study: a prospective population study. European
    Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition.

    Khaw KT, Bingham S, Welch A, Luben R, Wareham N, Oakes S, Day N.

    Department of Public Health and Primary Care, Institute of Public Health,
    University of Cambridge School of Clinical Medicine, UK.
    [email hidden]

    BACKGROUND: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) might be protective for several
    chronic diseases. However, findings from prospective studies that relate
    ascorbic acid to cardiovascular disease or cancer are not consistent. We
    aimed to assess the relation between plasma ascorbic acid and subsequent
    mortality due to all causes, cardiovascular disease, ischaemic heart
    disease, and cancer. METHODS: We prospectively examined for 4 years the
    relation between plasma ascorbic acid concentrations and mortality due to
    all causes, and to cardiovascular disease, ischaemic heart disease, and
    cancer in 19 496 men and women aged 45-79 years. We recruited individuals


    by

    Quoted message said:

    post using age-sex registers of general practices. Participants completed


    a

    Quoted message said:

    health and lifestyle questionnaire and were examined at a clinic visit.


    They

    Quoted message said:

    were followed-up for causes of death for about 4 years. Individuals were
    divided into sex-specific quintiles of plasma ascorbic acid. We used the


    Cox

    Quoted message said:

    proportional hazard model to determine the effect of ascorbic acid and


    other

    Quoted message said:

    risk factors on mortality. FINDINGS: Plasma ascorbic acid concentration


    was

    Quoted message said:

    inversely related to mortality from all-causes, and from cardiovascular
    disease, and ischaemic heart disease in men and women. Risk of mortality


    in

    Quoted message said:

    the top ascorbic acid quintile was about half the risk in the lowest
    quintile (p<0.0001). The relation with mortality was continuous through


    the

    Quoted message said:

    whole distribution of ascorbic acid concentrations. 20 micromol/L rise in
    plasma ascorbic acid concentration, equivalent to about 50 g per day
    increase in fruit and vegetable intake, was associated with about a 20%
    reduction in risk of all-cause mortality (p<0.0001), independent of age,
    systolic blood pressure, blood cholesterol, cigarette smoking habit,
    diabetes, and supplement use. Ascorbic acid was inversely related to


    cancer

    Quoted message said:

    mortality in men but not women. INTERPRETATION: Small increases in fruit


    and

    Quoted message said:

    vegetable intake of about one serving daily has encouraging prospects for
    possible prevention of disease.

    PMID: 11247548 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Interesting finding that the effect was "independent of supplement use".

    Simply UNREAL.

    Like a hound dog sniffing out a rabbit

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    The feet has been largely cut out from under Pauling's ideas on megavitamin
    C.

    That's the job of *organized meicine* largely cutting out the feet of ANYTHING
    OUTSIDE OF ORGANIZED MEDICNE.

    And why you are here.

    One word for you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    PATHETIC!!

    Jan

  3. "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Ascorbic acid study
    From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    Date: 7/30/2003 8:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    "Lou" <lou(nospam)@411.com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Lancet. 2001 Mar 3;357(9257):657-63. Related Articles, Links

    Comment in:
    Lancet. 2001 Jul 7;358(9275):71-2.

    Relation between plasma ascorbic acid and mortality in men and women in
    EPIC-Norfolk prospective study: a prospective population study.


    European

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition.

    Khaw KT, Bingham S, Welch A, Luben R, Wareham N, Oakes S, Day N.

    Department of Public Health and Primary Care, Institute of Public


    Health,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    University of Cambridge School of Clinical Medicine, UK.
    [email hidden]

    BACKGROUND: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) might be protective for several
    chronic diseases. However, findings from prospective studies that


    relate

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    ascorbic acid to cardiovascular disease or cancer are not consistent.


    We

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    aimed to assess the relation between plasma ascorbic acid and


    subsequent

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    mortality due to all causes, cardiovascular disease, ischaemic heart
    disease, and cancer. METHODS: We prospectively examined for 4 years the
    relation between plasma ascorbic acid concentrations and mortality due


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    all causes, and to cardiovascular disease, ischaemic heart disease, and
    cancer in 19 496 men and women aged 45-79 years. We recruited


    individuals

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    by

    Quoted message said:

    post using age-sex registers of general practices. Participants


    completed

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a

    Quoted message said:

    health and lifestyle questionnaire and were examined at a clinic visit.


    They

    Quoted message said:

    were followed-up for causes of death for about 4 years. Individuals


    were

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    divided into sex-specific quintiles of plasma ascorbic acid. We used


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Cox

    Quoted message said:

    proportional hazard model to determine the effect of ascorbic acid and


    other

    Quoted message said:

    risk factors on mortality. FINDINGS: Plasma ascorbic acid concentration


    was

    Quoted message said:

    inversely related to mortality from all-causes, and from cardiovascular
    disease, and ischaemic heart disease in men and women. Risk of


    mortality

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in

    Quoted message said:

    the top ascorbic acid quintile was about half the risk in the lowest
    quintile (p<0.0001). The relation with mortality was continuous through


    the

    Quoted message said:

    whole distribution of ascorbic acid concentrations. 20 micromol/L rise


    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    plasma ascorbic acid concentration, equivalent to about 50 g per day
    increase in fruit and vegetable intake, was associated with about a 20%
    reduction in risk of all-cause mortality (p<0.0001), independent of


    age,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    systolic blood pressure, blood cholesterol, cigarette smoking habit,
    diabetes, and supplement use. Ascorbic acid was inversely related to


    cancer

    Quoted message said:

    mortality in men but not women. INTERPRETATION: Small increases in


    fruit

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and

    Quoted message said:

    vegetable intake of about one serving daily has encouraging prospects


    for

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    possible prevention of disease.

    PMID: 11247548 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Interesting finding that the effect was "independent of supplement use".

    Simply UNREAL.

    Like a hound dog sniffing out a rabbit

    So what are you implying? That this important aspect of the study should
    be ignored, because it conflicts with alternative medical doctrine? That
    it does not add to knowledge about the relative importance of supplements
    and diet in human health?

    This study does not prove anything finally. The final word on supplement
    usage is not yet in. What we have so far does suggest that the claims
    with which supplements have been sold and promoted are at least very greatly
    exagerated. We have growing evidence that supplements are being used in
    harmful amounts.

    There is still no clinical data showing that supplement usage is superior to
    the lifestyle measures that conventional medicine has been promoting for a
    long time. We don't see supplement manufacturers encouraging better diets,
    exercise etc. On the contrary, they encourage sloppy eating habits by
    pretending that all you need are supplements.

    You have been brainwashed by experts, Lady..

    Peter Moran

    Quoted message said:


    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    The feet has been largely cut out from under Pauling's ideas on


    megavitamin

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    C.

    That's the job of *organized meicine* largely cutting out the feet of


    ANYTHING

    Quoted message said:

    OUTSIDE OF ORGANIZED MEDICNE.

    So when I have advised evening promirose oil for patients with cyclical
    breast pain or peppermint oil for the irritable bowel syndrome, because fo
    studies suggesting that they can help, I have been doing what exactly?

    Peter Moran
    Peter Moran

    Quoted message said:


    And why you are here.

    One word for you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    PATHETIC!!

    Jan

  4. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Ascorbic acid study
    From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    Date: 7/30/2003 11:34 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Ascorbic acid study
    From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    Date: 7/30/2003 8:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    "Lou" <lou(nospam)@411.com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    >
    >
    > Lancet. 2001 Mar 3;357(9257):657-63. Related Articles, Links
    >
    >
    > Comment in:
    > Lancet. 2001 Jul 7;358(9275):71-2.
    >
    > Relation between plasma ascorbic acid and mortality in men and women in
    > EPIC-Norfolk prospective study: a prospective population study.


    European

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition.
    >
    > Khaw KT, Bingham S, Welch A, Luben R, Wareham N, Oakes S, Day N.
    >
    > Department of Public Health and Primary Care, Institute of Public


    Health,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > University of Cambridge School of Clinical Medicine, UK.
    > [email hidden]
    >
    > BACKGROUND: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) might be protective for several
    > chronic diseases. However, findings from prospective studies that


    relate

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > ascorbic acid to cardiovascular disease or cancer are not consistent.


    We

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > aimed to assess the relation between plasma ascorbic acid and


    subsequent

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > mortality due to all causes, cardiovascular disease, ischaemic heart
    > disease, and cancer. METHODS: We prospectively examined for 4 years the
    > relation between plasma ascorbic acid concentrations and mortality due


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > all causes, and to cardiovascular disease, ischaemic heart disease, and
    > cancer in 19 496 men and women aged 45-79 years. We recruited


    individuals

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    by
    > post using age-sex registers of general practices. Participants


    completed

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a
    > health and lifestyle questionnaire and were examined at a clinic visit.
    They
    > were followed-up for causes of death for about 4 years. Individuals


    were

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > divided into sex-specific quintiles of plasma ascorbic acid. We used


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Cox
    > proportional hazard model to determine the effect of ascorbic acid and
    other
    > risk factors on mortality. FINDINGS: Plasma ascorbic acid concentration
    was
    > inversely related to mortality from all-causes, and from cardiovascular
    > disease, and ischaemic heart disease in men and women. Risk of


    mortality

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in
    > the top ascorbic acid quintile was about half the risk in the lowest
    > quintile (p<0.0001). The relation with mortality was continuous through
    the
    > whole distribution of ascorbic acid concentrations. 20 micromol/L rise


    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > plasma ascorbic acid concentration, equivalent to about 50 g per day
    > increase in fruit and vegetable intake, was associated with about a 20%
    > reduction in risk of all-cause mortality (p<0.0001), independent of


    age,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > systolic blood pressure, blood cholesterol, cigarette smoking habit,
    > diabetes, and supplement use. Ascorbic acid was inversely related to
    cancer
    > mortality in men but not women. INTERPRETATION: Small increases in


    fruit

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and
    > vegetable intake of about one serving daily has encouraging prospects


    for

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > possible prevention of disease.
    >
    > PMID: 11247548 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Interesting finding that the effect was "independent of supplement use".

    Simply UNREAL.

    Like a hound dog sniffing out a rabbit

    So what are you implying?

    That you over look any possibilities, and look for the negative.

    Quoted message said:

    that this important aspect of the study should be ignored, because it


    conflicts with alternative medical doctrine?

    See above.

    Quoted message said:

    That
    it does not add to knowledge about the relative importance of supplements
    and diet in human health?

    It adds:

    Quoted message said:

    Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition.

    Quoted message said:

    Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) might be protective for several

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > chronic diseases.

    Quoted message said:

    We aimed to assess the relation between plasma ascorbic acid and
    subsequent

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > mortality due to all causes, cardiovascular disease, ischaemic heart
    > disease, and cancer.

    Would you rather studies weren't being done??

    Quoted message said:

    METHODS: We prospectively examined for 4 years the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > relation between plasma ascorbic acid concentrations and mortality due


    to all causes, and to cardiovascular disease, ischaemic heart disease, and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > cancer in 19 496 men and women aged 45-79 years.

    You seem to be saying, they are wasting their time.

    Quoted message said:

    We recruited
    individuals

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    by
    > post using age-sex registers of general practices. Participants


    completed

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a
    > health and lifestyle questionnaire and were examined at a clinic visit.
    They
    > were followed-up for causes of death for about 4 years. Individuals


    were

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > divided into sex-specific


    quintiles of plasma ascorbic acid. We used

    Quoted message said:

    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Cox
    > proportional hazard model to determine the effect of ascorbic acid and
    other risk factors on mortality.

    Quoted message said:

    FINDINGS: Plasma ascorbic acid concentration

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    was
    > inversely related to mortality from all-causes, and from cardiovascular
    > disease, and ischaemic heart disease in men and women. Risk of


    mortality in the top ascorbic acid quintile was about half the risk in the


    lowest

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > quintile (p<0.0001)

    Quoted message said:

    The relation with mortality was continuous through

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the
    > whole distribution of ascorbic acid concentrations. 20 micromol/L rise


    in plasma ascorbic acid concentration, equivalent to about 50 g per day

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > increase in fruit and vegetable intake, was associated with about a 20%
    > reduction in risk of all-cause mortality (p<0.0001), independent of


    age, systolic blood pressure, blood cholesterol, cigarette smoking habit,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > diabetes, and supplement use. Ascorbic acid was inversely related to
    cancer
    > mortality in men but not women.

    Is it your attitude that no further research needs done??

    Quoted message said:

    INTERPRETATION: Small increases in
    fruit

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and
    > vegetable intake of about one serving daily has encouraging prospects


    for possible prevention of disease.

    That's a good thing, not negative.

    Quoted message said:

    This study does not prove anything finally.

    OK. Stop all research, as you have a closed mind and they just might find a new
    discovery that would bruise your EGO, or prove the old studies were out dated.

    That is my point!! You seems to want to stiffle new divcoveries.

    Quoted message said:

    The final word on supplement
    usage is not yet in.

    EXACTLY!!!

    You just said:

    This study does not prove anything finally.

    Quoted message said:

    What we have so far does suggest that the claims
    with which supplements have been sold and promoted are at least very greatly
    exagerated

    *Suggest*.

    Quoted message said:

    We have growing evidence that supplements are being used in
    harmful amounts.

    I greatly doubt that is your concern, rather you want to always be RIGHT!!

    Quoted message said:

    There is still no clinical data showing that supplement usage is superior to
    the lifestyle measures that conventional medicine has been promoting for a
    long time.

    WHY do you suppose that is?!?! As long as no new studies are now that might
    prove this to be wrong,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,YOU would just rather pass.

    Quoted message said:

    We don't see supplement manufacturers encouraging better diets,
    exercise etc

    That is an absolutely *stupid* statement.

    Quoted message said:

    On the contrary, they encourage sloppy eating habits by
    pretending that all you need are supplements.

    OMG. You are so full of it.

    Do post proof of this encouragement.

    Quoted message said:

    You have been brainwashed by experts, Lady..

    Quoted message said:

    Peter Moran

    Quite wrong, I don't fall for lies like the supplements companies encourage
    sloppy eating habits,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,because you just made it up.

    I also see your closed mind.

    They shouldn't do studies, they should just ask the debunkers, and if God came
    down from heaven and preclaimed a new discovery that didn't come form organized
    medicine, you would deny it also.

    I repeat.

    PATHETIC!!

    Jan

  5. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Interesting finding that the effect was "independent of supplement use".

    Simply UNREAL.

    Like a hound dog sniffing out a rabbit

    How Dare Peter Moran read the article carefully, applying scrutiny? Who does
    he think he is trying to understand the MEANING instead of simply nodding in
    agreement?

    Quoted message said:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    The feet has been largely cut out from under Pauling's ideas on megavitamin
    C.

    That's the job of *organized meicine* largely cutting out the feet of
    ANYTHING
    OUTSIDE OF ORGANIZED MEDICNE.

    Its not just the feet of Alt-Med, Jan. Ever wonder why YOUR _FEET_ hurt so
    much? Wha-Ha-ha-ha!!!!! Take some more Elavil and Neurontin and keep covering
    up the problem that your alt-therapists would sure cure by finding the
    source!!!!!

    Quoted message said:

    Jan

  6. <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    I also see your closed mind.

    They shouldn't do studies, they should just ask the debunkers, and if Satan
    came
    down from heaven and fornicated with me in front of you & my husband,
    you would deny it also.

    I repeat.

    I Fornicate with Satan!

    Jan

  7. "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    [...]
    , and if God came

    Quoted message said:

    down from heaven and preclaimed a new discovery that didn't come form


    organized

    Quoted message said:

    medicine, you would deny it also.

    Your god would have to pass the scientific peer review process
    just like any other schmuck.

    Quoted message said:


    I repeat.

    PATHETIC!!

    In your case, that would be PATHETICALLY CREDULOUS.

  8. "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On the contrary, they encourage sloppy eating habits by
    pretending that all you need are supplements.

    Quoted message said:

    OMG. You are so full of it.

    Quoted message said:

    Do post proof of this encouragement.

    Are you unaware of the following lines of salesmanship used by supplement
    manufacturers and quacks?.

    "busy people often can't get the nutrition they need from their diet these
    days "
    "depletion os soils means that food doesn;t contain what it used to" (even
    if marginally true that might suggest eating more fruit and vegetables,
    rather than taking supplements).

    Peter Moran

    OMG. You are so full of it.

    Do post proof of this encouragement.

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Ascorbic acid study
    From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    Date: 7/30/2003 11:34 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    >Subject: Re: Ascorbic acid study
    >From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    >Date: 7/30/2003 8:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
    >Message-id: <[email hidden]>
    >
    >
    >"Lou" <lou(nospam)@411.com> wrote in message
    >news:[email hidden]...
    >>
    >>
    >> Lancet. 2001 Mar 3;357(9257):657-63. Related Articles, Links
    >>
    >>
    >> Comment in:
    >> Lancet. 2001 Jul 7;358(9275):71-2.
    >>
    >> Relation between plasma ascorbic acid and mortality in men and women


    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> EPIC-Norfolk prospective study: a prospective population study.


    European

    Quoted message said:

    >> Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition.
    >>
    >> Khaw KT, Bingham S, Welch A, Luben R, Wareham N, Oakes S, Day N.
    >>
    >> Department of Public Health and Primary Care, Institute of Public


    Health,

    Quoted message said:

    >> University of Cambridge School of Clinical Medicine, UK.
    >> [email hidden]
    >>
    >> BACKGROUND: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) might be protective for


    several

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> chronic diseases. However, findings from prospective studies that


    relate

    Quoted message said:

    >> ascorbic acid to cardiovascular disease or cancer are not


    consistent.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    We

    Quoted message said:

    >> aimed to assess the relation between plasma ascorbic acid and


    subsequent

    Quoted message said:

    >> mortality due to all causes, cardiovascular disease, ischaemic heart
    >> disease, and cancer. METHODS: We prospectively examined for 4 years


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> relation between plasma ascorbic acid concentrations and mortality


    due

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to

    Quoted message said:

    >> all causes, and to cardiovascular disease, ischaemic heart disease,


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> cancer in 19 496 men and women aged 45-79 years. We recruited


    individuals

    Quoted message said:

    >by
    >> post using age-sex registers of general practices. Participants


    completed

    Quoted message said:

    >a
    >> health and lifestyle questionnaire and were examined at a clinic


    visit.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >They
    >> were followed-up for causes of death for about 4 years. Individuals


    were

    Quoted message said:

    >> divided into sex-specific quintiles of plasma ascorbic acid. We used


    the

    Quoted message said:

    >Cox
    >> proportional hazard model to determine the effect of ascorbic acid


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >other
    >> risk factors on mortality. FINDINGS: Plasma ascorbic acid


    concentration

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >was
    >> inversely related to mortality from all-causes, and from


    cardiovascular

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> disease, and ischaemic heart disease in men and women. Risk of


    mortality

    Quoted message said:

    >in
    >> the top ascorbic acid quintile was about half the risk in the lowest
    >> quintile (p<0.0001). The relation with mortality was continuous


    through

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >the
    >> whole distribution of ascorbic acid concentrations. 20 micromol/L


    rise

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in

    Quoted message said:

    >> plasma ascorbic acid concentration, equivalent to about 50 g per day
    >> increase in fruit and vegetable intake, was associated with about a


    20%

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> reduction in risk of all-cause mortality (p<0.0001), independent of


    age,

    Quoted message said:

    >> systolic blood pressure, blood cholesterol, cigarette smoking habit,
    >> diabetes, and supplement use. Ascorbic acid was inversely related to
    >cancer
    >> mortality in men but not women. INTERPRETATION: Small increases in


    fruit

    Quoted message said:

    >and
    >> vegetable intake of about one serving daily has encouraging


    prospects

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    for

    Quoted message said:

    >> possible prevention of disease.
    >>
    >> PMID: 11247548 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    >
    >Interesting finding that the effect was "independent of supplement


    use".

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Simply UNREAL.

    Like a hound dog sniffing out a rabbit

    So what are you implying?

    That you over look any possibilities, and look for the negative.

    Quoted message said:

    that this important aspect of the study should be ignored, because it


    conflicts with alternative medical doctrine?

    See above.

    Quoted message said:

    That
    it does not add to knowledge about the relative importance of supplements
    and diet in human health?

    It adds:

    Quoted message said:

    Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition.

    Quoted message said:

    Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) might be protective for several

    Quoted message said:

    >> chronic diseases.

    Quoted message said:

    We aimed to assess the relation between plasma ascorbic acid and
    subsequent

    Quoted message said:

    >> mortality due to all causes, cardiovascular disease, ischaemic heart
    >> disease, and cancer.

    Would you rather studies weren't being done??

    Quoted message said:

    METHODS: We prospectively examined for 4 years the

    Quoted message said:

    >> relation between plasma ascorbic acid concentrations and mortality


    due

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to all causes, and to cardiovascular disease, ischaemic heart disease,


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> cancer in 19 496 men and women aged 45-79 years.

    You seem to be saying, they are wasting their time.

    Quoted message said:

    We recruited
    individuals

    Quoted message said:

    >by
    >> post using age-sex registers of general practices. Participants


    completed

    Quoted message said:

    >a
    >> health and lifestyle questionnaire and were examined at a clinic


    visit.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >They
    >> were followed-up for causes of death for about 4 years. Individuals


    were

    Quoted message said:

    >> divided into sex-specific


    quintiles of plasma ascorbic acid. We used

    Quoted message said:

    the

    Quoted message said:

    >Cox
    >> proportional hazard model to determine the effect of ascorbic acid


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >other risk factors on mortality.

    Quoted message said:

    FINDINGS: Plasma ascorbic acid concentration

    Quoted message said:

    >was
    >> inversely related to mortality from all-causes, and from


    cardiovascular

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> disease, and ischaemic heart disease in men and women. Risk of


    mortality in the top ascorbic acid quintile was about half the risk in


    the

    Quoted message said:

    lowest

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> quintile (p<0.0001)

    Quoted message said:

    The relation with mortality was continuous through

    Quoted message said:

    >the
    >> whole distribution of ascorbic acid concentrations. 20 micromol/L


    rise

    Quoted message said:

    in plasma ascorbic acid concentration, equivalent to about 50 g per day

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> increase in fruit and vegetable intake, was associated with about a


    20%

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> reduction in risk of all-cause mortality (p<0.0001), independent of


    age, systolic blood pressure, blood cholesterol, cigarette smoking habit,

    Quoted message said:

    >> diabetes, and supplement use. Ascorbic acid was inversely related to
    >cancer
    >> mortality in men but not women.

    Is it your attitude that no further research needs done??

    Quoted message said:

    INTERPRETATION: Small increases in
    fruit

    Quoted message said:

    >and
    >> vegetable intake of about one serving daily has encouraging


    prospects

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    for possible prevention of disease.

    That's a good thing, not negative.

    Quoted message said:

    This study does not prove anything finally.

    OK. Stop all research, as you have a closed mind and they just might find


    a new

    Quoted message said:

    discovery that would bruise your EGO, or prove the old studies were out


    dated.

    Quoted message said:


    That is my point!! You seems to want to stiffle new divcoveries.

    Quoted message said:

    The final word on supplement
    usage is not yet in.

    EXACTLY!!!

    You just said:

    This study does not prove anything finally.

    Quoted message said:

    What we have so far does suggest that the claims
    with which supplements have been sold and promoted are at least very


    greatly

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    exagerated

    *Suggest*.

    Quoted message said:

    We have growing evidence that supplements are being used in
    harmful amounts.

    I greatly doubt that is your concern, rather you want to always be RIGHT!!

    Quoted message said:

    There is still no clinical data showing that supplement usage is superior


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the lifestyle measures that conventional medicine has been promoting for


    a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    long time.

    WHY do you suppose that is?!?! As long as no new studies are now that


    might

    Quoted message said:

    prove this to be wrong,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,YOU would just rather pass.

    Quoted message said:

    We don't see supplement manufacturers encouraging better diets,
    exercise etc

    That is an absolutely *stupid* statement.

    Quoted message said:

    On the contrary, they encourage sloppy eating habits by
    pretending that all you need are supplements.

    OMG. You are so full of it.

    Do post proof of this encouragement.

    Quoted message said:

    You have been brainwashed by experts, Lady..

    Quoted message said:

    Peter Moran

    Quite wrong, I don't fall for lies like the supplements companies


    encourage

    Quoted message said:

    sloppy eating habits,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,because you just made it up.

    I also see your closed mind.

    They shouldn't do studies, they should just ask the debunkers, and if God


    came

    Quoted message said:

    down from heaven and preclaimed a new discovery that didn't come form


    organized

    Quoted message said:

    medicine, you would deny it also.

    I repeat.

    PATHETIC!!

    Jan

  9. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Ascorbic acid study
    From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    Date: 7/31/2003 1:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On the contrary, they encourage sloppy eating habits by
    pretending that all you need are supplements.

    Quoted message said:

    OMG. You are so full of it.

    Quoted message said:

    Do post proof of this encouragement.

    Are you unaware of the following lines of salesmanship used by supplement
    manufacturers and quacks?.

    "busy people often can't get the nutrition they need from their diet these
    days "

    This is very true, and is said also by conventional medicine.

    There is nothing there *encouraging* people to have sloppy eating habits.

    Quoted message said:

    "depletion os soils means that food doesn;t contain what it used to"

    VERY VERY true.

    Nothing there that *encourages* people to have sloppy eating habits.

    Quoted message said:

    (even
    if marginally true that might suggest eating more fruit and vegetables,
    rather than taking supplements).

    Peter Moran

    Indeed. The truth is, this world is filled with VERY picky eaters.

    Some kids absolutely refuse to even try different foods. This is because the
    parents are the picky eaters. In my day care we had to meet requirements with
    our menus. The menu was posted for all to read each day. If it was a day for
    spinach, a parent would come in, read the menue (because the child had worried
    about it on the way to school) and say YUCK, I am gald I am not eating here
    today.

    The FACT is very few people eat as they should, therefore they take
    supplements.

    To say, >they encourage sloppy eating habits by

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    pretending that all you need are supplements.

    Is just not true. It is pathetic.

    Jan

  10. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Ascorbic acid study
    From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    Date: 7/31/2003 1:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    >On the contrary, they encourage sloppy eating habits by
    >pretending that all you need are supplements.

    Quoted message said:

    OMG. You are so full of it.

    Quoted message said:

    Do post proof of this encouragement.

    Are you unaware of the following lines of salesmanship used by supplement
    manufacturers and quacks?.

    "busy people often can't get the nutrition they need from their diet these
    days "

    This is very true, and is said also by conventional medicine.

    There is nothing there *encouraging* people to have sloppy eating habits.

    Quoted message said:

    "depletion os soils means that food doesn;t contain what it used to"

    VERY VERY true.

    Nothing there that *encourages* people to have sloppy eating habits.

    Quoted message said:

    (even
    if marginally true that might suggest eating more fruit and vegetables,
    rather than taking supplements).

    Peter Moran

    Indeed. The truth is, this world is filled with VERY picky eaters.

    Some kids absolutely refuse to even try different foods. This is because the
    parents are the picky eaters. In my day care we had to meet requirements with
    our menus. The menu was posted for all to read each day. If it was a day for
    spinach, a parent would come in, read the menue (because the child had
    worried
    about it on the way to school) and say YUCK, I am gald I am not eating here
    today.

    Of course they said "YUCK", they had to stare at the sour puss of the Evil
    Disorganized Day-Care Center owner.

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