Re: Are chiropractors physicians?

Jeff said:

Considering that the theory behind chiropractic is not supported by medical
science, I don't think chiropractors should be allowed to call themselves
physicians. In addition, chiropractors do not have the in-depth training
that physicians about the human body or appropriate training such as
residency.

They do provide a service though. I used to think that they
were total quacks. But, after working with a personal injury
lawyer, I've seen a suprising number of mutual referrals
between neurologists and chiroporactors as well as mutual
respect. In a sense, chiropractors bridge the gap between
physical (or massage) therapists and physicians. Some people
are highly comforted by their services. Whether the placebo
effect is the main modus operandi or not remains unknown.

"giselle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeff said:

Considering that the theory behind chiropractic is not supported by

medical

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

science, I don't think chiropractors should be allowed to call

themselves

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

physicians. In addition, chiropractors do not have the in-depth training
that physicians about the human body or appropriate training such as
residency.

They do provide a service though. I used to think that they
were total quacks. But, after working with a personal injury
lawyer, I've seen a suprising number of mutual referrals
between neurologists and chiroporactors as well as mutual
respect. In a sense, chiropractors bridge the gap between
physical (or massage) therapists and physicians. Some people
are highly comforted by their services. Whether the placebo
effect is the main modus operandi or not remains unknown.

I agree that some chiropractors provide valuable services. However,
physical therapists, occupational therapists, dentists, psychologists and
social workers all provide extremely important services. But they aren't
physicians either.

And I don't see how chiropractors bridge a gap between physical therapists
and physicians. Physical therapists are highly trained professionals how
understand anatomy and physiology from their coursework in school.

Jeff

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Jeff said:

Considering that the theory behind chiropractic is not supported by medical
science, I don't think chiropractors should be allowed to call themselves
physicians. In addition, chiropractors do not have the in-depth training
that physicians about the human body or appropriate training such as
residency.

They do provide a service though.

Yeah, a quack service.

Quoted message said:

I used to think that they were total quacks.

Used to? They ARE. Your mind is going backwards.

Quoted message said:

But, after working with a personal injury
lawyer, I've seen a suprising number of mutual referrals
between neurologists and chiroporactors as well as mutual
respect. In a sense, chiropractors bridge the gap between
physical (or massage) therapists and physicians.

Personally, I'd put chiropractors below physical therapists and massage
therapists, in roughly the same category as fortune tellers and
astrologers and faith healers. You know, the KOOK category.

Quoted message said:

Some people
are highly comforted by their services. Whether the placebo
effect is the main modus operandi or not remains unknown.

Heh. They might as well save their money and pray to Jesus. It will be
just as effective.

(...)

Quoted message said:

Personally, I'd put chiropractors below physical therapists and massage
therapists, in roughly the same category as fortune tellers and
astrologers and faith healers. You know, the KOOK category.

Chiropractors have been shown to improve back pain. For a few people with
very specific conditions, some chriopractors do a wonderful service. (I
think good physical therapy would be just as effective). However,
considering that chiropractic is based on theories that are not in any way
backed by science, I think the work would be better off without them.

(...)

"giselle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mein said:

Used to? They ARE. Your mind is going backwards.

There is no need to be insulting. After you've
gone through approximately 100 m of paperwork
wherein neurologists and sports physicians send
their injured patients to chiropractors, you might
see things a little differently, too. I would not have
believed it myself until I saw it. I didn't say that
chiropractors accomplished anything. I just said that
they provide a service. Some people find value in it.

\

Many physcians send some patients to chiropracters, including me. However,
it's been my experience that this is done, not because the chiropracters
have specific medical treatments that are more effective, but because
chiropracters are generally less constrained by scientific honesty. They can
do a great song and dance for the patient and really make it believable. The
resultant placebo effect is significant and can "cure" many patients that
haven't responded to allopathic diagnosis and treatment primarily because
their symptoms are either entirely psychological, or psychologically
augmented symptoms of real physical complaints.

HMc

Quoted message said:

--

"Howard McCollister" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"giselle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mein said:

Used to? They ARE. Your mind is going backwards.

There is no need to be insulting. After you've
gone through approximately 100 m of paperwork
wherein neurologists and sports physicians send
their injured patients to chiropractors, you might
see things a little differently, too. I would not have
believed it myself until I saw it. I didn't say that
chiropractors accomplished anything. I just said that
they provide a service. Some people find value in it.

\

Many physcians send some patients to chiropracters, including me. However,
it's been my experience that this is done, not because the chiropracters
have specific medical treatments that are more effective, but because
chiropracters are generally less constrained by scientific honesty. They

can

Quoted message said:

do a great song and dance for the patient and really make it believable.

The

Quoted message said:

resultant placebo effect is significant and can "cure" many patients that
haven't responded to allopathic diagnosis and treatment primarily because
their symptoms are either entirely psychological, or psychologically
augmented symptoms of real physical complaints.

HMc

Yes, chiropractors get referred those annoying patients with somatic
disorders and frustrating chronic pain patients. It's unfortunate that there
are not more pain centers available for the chronic pain people. And it's
especially unfortunate that doctors are not trained to manage somatic
disease and hypochondria. Perhaps if there were real treatment available,
these unfortunate people would not get sent to have their wallets vacuumed
by greedy chiropractic quacks.

--Rich

In article <[email hidden]>,

giselle said:

Mein said:

Used to? They ARE. Your mind is going backwards.

There is no need to be insulting. After you've
gone through approximately 100 m of paperwork
wherein neurologists and sports physicians send
their injured patients to chiropractors, you might
see things a little differently, too. I would not have
believed it myself until I saw it. I didn't say that
chiropractors accomplished anything. I just said that
they provide a service. Some people find value in it.

In some parts of the world, the work chiropractors do is very similar
to that of physiotherapists, and similarly effective for appropriate
problems. There's a small subset of chiropractors in North America
who work this way, and doctors are often pleased to refer patients
to them. These chiros treat lower back pain by teaching the patient
methods and exercises to reduce pain and prevent continuing and repeat
injury. Chiropractic manipulation cannot affect the spine itself, but
can relieve some of the pain caused by muscle spasms that can occur in
response to disk injuries.

It's true that the most common lower back problems will improve
significantly in a few months if the patient doesn't aggravate them,
but they will also recur. This gives many chiropractors a devoted
following and a steady income - they relieve the pain while the injury
heals itself, and the next time the patient "throws his back out" he
comes back for another course of treatment, with perhaps some routine
"preventative" treatments in between as well. Lower back pain can
really degrade quality of life and some pain relief without chronic
use of drugs is preferable to none.

Unfortunately, most chiros are not like the most ethical ones in the
first paragraph, or even like the ones who have the sense to limit
themselves to the few conditions they can treat reasonably effectively
like those in the second. They range from honestly self-deluded
magical thinkers to the most cynical of sociopaths preying on the sick,
ignorant and desperate to inflate their egos and fill their pockets.

Some years ago there was a chiro on this list who belonged to a new
organization of chiros who ascribe to the methods and goals of those
in the first paragraph. Several physicians on the list were very
interested and said that if they could find such practitioners locally
they would refer patients to them.

I suspect that the chiros the physicians in Giselle's documents referred
to were of the first and/or second type. Unfortunately, such chiros can
be hard to find, and in many areas, most chiros are out and out quacks,
and sometimes dangerous ones.

"David Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jeff said:

And I don't see how chiropractors bridge a gap between physical

therapists

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and physicians. Physical therapists are highly trained professionals how
understand anatomy and physiology from their coursework in school.

Subluxations aside, what is your basis for implying that chiropractors
don't understand anatomy? Are they telling us the leg bone is
connected to the arm bone?

I did not imply that chiropractors don't understand anatomy. Rather, if they
think that the main cause of disease is spinal problems, their understanding
of physiology and pathology is why off, IMHO:
http://www.chirobase.org/01General/modde.html.

While many physical therapists mmight not have as comprensive training in
anatomy and physiology, at least the training they have is based on
scientifically verifiable principles. While phyisical therapists and
physicians have different professional training and different ways of
helping people, the gap between PTs and physicians is not one that needs to
be filled, espeically by quacks.

Jeff

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Considering that the theory behind chiropractic is not supported by

medical

Quoted message said:

science, I don't think

Quoted message said:

Jeff

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"giselle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeff said:

Considering that the theory behind chiropractic is not supported by

medical

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

science, I don't think chiropractors should be allowed to call

themselves

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

physicians. In addition, chiropractors do not have the in-depth

training

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that physicians about the human body or appropriate training such as
residency.

They do provide a service though. I used to think that they
were total quacks. But, after working with a personal injury
lawyer, I've seen a suprising number of mutual referrals
between neurologists and chiroporactors as well as mutual
respect. In a sense, chiropractors bridge the gap between
physical (or massage) therapists and physicians. Some people
are highly comforted by their services. Whether the placebo
effect is the main modus operandi or not remains unknown.

I agree that some chiropractors provide valuable services. However,
physical therapists, occupational therapists, dentists, psychologists and
social workers all provide extremely important services. But they aren't
physicians either.

And I don't see how chiropractors bridge a gap between physical therapists
and physicians. Physical therapists are highly trained professionals how
understand anatomy and physiology from their coursework in school.

Jeff

Jeffie has not researched this.

"Mein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Jeff said:

Considering that the theory behind chiropractic is not supported by

medical

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

science, I don't think chiropractors should be allowed to call

themselves

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

physicians. In addition, chiropractors do not have the in-depth

training

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that physicians about the human body or appropriate training such as
residency.

They do provide a service though.

Yeah, a quack service.

Quoted message said:

I used to think that they were total quacks.

Used to? They ARE. Your mind is going backwards.

Quoted message said:

But, after working with a personal injury
lawyer, I've seen a suprising number of mutual referrals
between neurologists and chiroporactors as well as mutual
respect. In a sense, chiropractors bridge the gap between
physical (or massage) therapists and physicians.

Personally, I'd put chiropractors below physical therapists and massage
therapists, in roughly the same category as fortune tellers and
astrologers and faith healers. You know, the KOOK category.

Quoted message said:

Some people
are highly comforted by their services. Whether the placebo
effect is the main modus operandi or not remains unknown.

Heh. They might as well save their money and pray to Jesus. It will be
just as effective.

Ahhhh, more idiot representation. Good show, "mein".

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(...)

Quoted message said:

Personally, I'd put chiropractors below physical therapists and massage
therapists, in roughly the same category as fortune tellers and
astrologers and faith healers. You know, the KOOK category.

Chiropractors have been shown to improve back pain. For a few people with
very specific conditions, some chriopractors do a wonderful service. (I
think good physical therapy would be just as effective). However,
considering that chiropractic is based on theories that are not in any way
backed by science, I think the work would be better off without them.

(...)

There you go again, trying to convince folks, that you think.

"Howard McCollister" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"giselle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mein said:

Used to? They ARE. Your mind is going backwards.

There is no need to be insulting. After you've
gone through approximately 100 m of paperwork
wherein neurologists and sports physicians send
their injured patients to chiropractors, you might
see things a little differently, too. I would not have
believed it myself until I saw it. I didn't say that
chiropractors accomplished anything. I just said that
they provide a service. Some people find value in it.

\

Many physcians send some patients to chiropracters, including me. However,
it's been my experience that this is done, not because the chiropracters
have specific medical treatments that are more effective, but because
chiropracters are generally less constrained by scientific honesty. They

can

Quoted message said:

do a great song and dance for the patient and really make it believable.

The

Quoted message said:

resultant placebo effect is significant and can "cure" many patients that
haven't responded to allopathic diagnosis and treatment primarily because
their symptoms are either entirely psychological, or psychologically
augmented symptoms of real physical complaints.

HMc

Quoted message said:

Unless you tell the Chiros that you "send" people exactly that, you sir ,
are dishonest and a admitted BS artist.. Not one to be trusted.

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Howard McCollister" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"giselle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mein wrote:

> Used to? They ARE. Your mind is going backwards.

There is no need to be insulting. After you've
gone through approximately 100 m of paperwork
wherein neurologists and sports physicians send
their injured patients to chiropractors, you might
see things a little differently, too. I would not have
believed it myself until I saw it. I didn't say that
chiropractors accomplished anything. I just said that
they provide a service. Some people find value in it.

\

Many physcians send some patients to chiropracters, including me.

However,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's been my experience that this is done, not because the chiropracters
have specific medical treatments that are more effective, but because
chiropracters are generally less constrained by scientific honesty. They

can

Quoted message said:

do a great song and dance for the patient and really make it believable.

The

Quoted message said:

resultant placebo effect is significant and can "cure" many patients

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

haven't responded to allopathic diagnosis and treatment primarily

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

their symptoms are either entirely psychological, or psychologically
augmented symptoms of real physical complaints.

HMc

Quoted message said:

Unless you tell the Chiros that you "send" people exactly that, you sir ,
are dishonest and a admitted BS artist.. Not one to be trusted.

I not only tell the chiropracter exactly that, I tell the patient exactly
that as well.

And, the opinion of my trustworthiness from an idiot like you is of
absolutely no concern to me.

HMc

Quoted message said:

"Howard McCollister" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Howard McCollister" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"giselle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Mein wrote:
>
> > Used to? They ARE. Your mind is going backwards.
>
> There is no need to be insulting. After you've
> gone through approximately 100 m of paperwork
> wherein neurologists and sports physicians send
> their injured patients to chiropractors, you might
> see things a little differently, too. I would not have
> believed it myself until I saw it. I didn't say that
> chiropractors accomplished anything. I just said that
> they provide a service. Some people find value in it.
\

Many physcians send some patients to chiropracters, including me.

However,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's been my experience that this is done, not because the

chiropracters

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have specific medical treatments that are more effective, but because
chiropracters are generally less constrained by scientific honesty.

They

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can

Quoted message said:

do a great song and dance for the patient and really make it

believable.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The

Quoted message said:

resultant placebo effect is significant and can "cure" many patients

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

haven't responded to allopathic diagnosis and treatment primarily

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

their symptoms are either entirely psychological, or psychologically
augmented symptoms of real physical complaints.

HMc

>

Unless you tell the Chiros that you "send" people exactly that, you sir

,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are dishonest and a admitted BS artist.. Not one to be trusted.

I not only tell the chiropracter exactly that, I tell the patient exactly
that as well.

I don't believe that you say anything of the sort. If you did, the Chiros
would tell you to go screw. If you told paitents that, you would not see
that person again. You are an insult to medicine.

Quoted message said:

And, the opinion of my trustworthiness from an idiot like you is of
absolutely no concern to me.

HMc

If that were true, you would not have replied to me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Howard McCollister" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The
> resultant placebo effect is significant and can "cure" many patients

that

Quoted message said:

> haven't responded to allopathic diagnosis and treatment primarily

because

Quoted message said:

> their symptoms are either entirely psychological, or psychologically
> augmented symptoms of real physical complaints.
>
> HMc

TRANSLATION; hmc has no idea what is wrong, so his best shot is to say that
"it's all in their head". Fortunatly, more and more people are learning to
find other opinions and answers.

"Howard McCollister" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Howard McCollister" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Howard McCollister" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > "giselle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > > Mein wrote:
> > >
> > > > Used to? They ARE. Your mind is going backwards.
> > >
> > > There is no need to be insulting. After you've
> > > gone through approximately 100 m of paperwork
> > > wherein neurologists and sports physicians send
> > > their injured patients to chiropractors, you might
> > > see things a little differently, too. I would not have
> > > believed it myself until I saw it. I didn't say that
> > > chiropractors accomplished anything. I just said that
> > > they provide a service. Some people find value in it.
> > \
> >
> >
> > Many physcians send some patients to chiropracters, including me.
However,
> > it's been my experience that this is done, not because the

chiropracters

Quoted message said:

> > have specific medical treatments that are more effective, but

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > chiropracters are generally less constrained by scientific

honesty.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They

Quoted message said:

> can
> > do a great song and dance for the patient and really make it

believable.

Quoted message said:

> The
> > resultant placebo effect is significant and can "cure" many

patients

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that
> > haven't responded to allopathic diagnosis and treatment primarily
because
> > their symptoms are either entirely psychological, or

psychologically

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > augmented symptoms of real physical complaints.
> >
> > HMc
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> Unless you tell the Chiros that you "send" people exactly that, you

sir

Quoted message said:

,

Quoted message said:

> are dishonest and a admitted BS artist.. Not one to be trusted.

I not only tell the chiropracter exactly that, I tell the patient

exactly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that as well.

I don't believe that you say anything of the sort. If you did, the

Chiros

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would tell you to go screw. If you told paitents that, you would not see
that person again. You are an insult to medicine.

Quoted message said:

And, the opinion of my trustworthiness from an idiot like you is of
absolutely no concern to me.

HMc

If that were true, you would not have replied to me.

Quoted message said:

>
>

Most chirporacters are so desperate for patients, and the validation they
receive from getting a referral from a real doctor,

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
that they will not only

Quoted message said:

gladly accept those patients I send them, they would buy me lunch too (no
thanks).

As to the patients, there's nothing physically wrong with them...

SOOOOO, you, in your most goddly superiorty, have determined this. It
matters not that someone else finds a problem that you missed. Thank
you, your godness.
why would I

Quoted message said:

see them back if I can't do anything to help them?

Why would they think you could have?
Oh, I forgot, you're a

Quoted message said:

chirporacter --

Where did you come up with this bit of BS?
you know the answer to that question very well...

Quoted message said:

HMc

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(...)

Quoted message said:

Personally, I'd put chiropractors below physical therapists and

massage

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

therapists, in roughly the same category as fortune tellers and
astrologers and faith healers. You know, the KOOK category.

Chiropractors have been shown to improve back pain. For a few people

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

very specific conditions, some chriopractors do a wonderful service. (I
think good physical therapy would be just as effective). However,
considering that chiropractic is based on theories that are not in any

way

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

backed by science, I think the work would be better off without them.

(...)

There you go again, trying to convince folks, that you think.

Rather than attack me, why don't you show where what I have said is
incorrect?

Thanks.

Jeff

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Considering that the theory behind chiropractic is not supported by

medical

Quoted message said:

science, I don't think chiropractors should be allowed to call themselves
physicians. In addition, chiropractors do not have the in-depth training
that physicians about the human body or appropriate training such as
residency.

Jeff

So, are you calling my 500-odd hours in a human anatomy dissection
laboratory studying under a fully qualified PHD in Anatomy from the
University of Toronto inappropriate?